I don’t appreciate people who argue that women are somehow not serious when they say that they care about intellectual or moral values. I’m entirely serious.
What do you think causes the common perception that women are not serious about caring about intellectual or moral values? Are you saying that it’s extremely rare for women to say this unseriously, or that you just don’t like being judged as non-serious on such a claim merely because a non-trivial percentage of women may make it incorrectly? What level of variation do you think occurs in the female population in this area.
Us guys, we see women saying that they want guys with intellectual and moral values, but then we often seeing women going for men who seem unlikely to exhibit those traits, and we get… confused. Since this kind of subject isn’t politically correct to talk about, when a guy sees something like this happening, it will dominate his thinking and lead to hasty generalizations about what all women want (like your example of “women just want sex with assholes”).
What do you think about women who are into Rhett Butler, and other “dark heroes” from romance novels? If that example is too fictional, how about, say, rappers?
His popularity with girls sends a dangerous message to boys and men.
Boys and young men have long expressed frustration with the fact that girls and young women say they’re attracted to nice guys, but that the most popular girls often end up with the disdainful tough guys who treat them like dirt. We all know that heterosexual young guys are forever struggling to figure out what girls want. What are they supposed to conclude when 53% of the 8 Mile audience on opening weekend was female?
What are men to make of New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd when she writes, uncritically, that a “gaggle” of her female Baby Boomer friends are “surreptitiously smitten” with a 30-year-old rapper whose lyrics literally drip with contempt for women? (If you’re in denial or simply refuse to believe that his lyrics are degrading to women, do your homework – download his lyrics.) That girls want to be treated with dignity and respect? Or that the quickest route to popularity with them is to be verbally and emotionally cruel, that “bad boy” posturing is a winning strategy to impress naïve (and self-loathing) girls? Surely most of Eminem’s female fans would not want to be sending that message to their male peers – but they are.
Boys who have listened carefully to Eminem’s actual lyrics—not just the hit songs or the sanitized movie soundtrack—know that most self-respecting girls who are conscious about the depths of our culture’s sexism are repulsed by Eminem’s misogyny and depressed by his popularity. Sadly, many of these girls have been silent, fearing they’ll be branded as “uncool” because they “don’t get” the artist who is supposedly the voice of their generation.
There are women who like Eminem because (they say) he’s complex and not easily knowable; they would argue that it is reductionist to characterize his art as sexist. But the burden is on them to demonstrate how—in a culture where so many men sexually harass, rape, and batter women—it is possible to reconcile a concern for women’s physical, sexual, and emotional well-being with admiration for a male artist whose lyrics consistently portray women in a contemptuous and sexually degrading manner.
Girls and women, even those who have been coopted into Eminem-worship, want to be treated with respect. They certainly don’t want to be physically or sexually assaulted by men. They don’t want to be sexually degraded by dismissive and arrogant men. But they can’t have it both ways. They can’t proclaim their attraction to a man who’s gotten rich verbally trashing and metaphorically raping women and yet expect that young men will treat them with dignity.
Moving on...
But, on a totally different metric and with a totally different mechanism, masculinity also matters a lot. (I think this is true of most women, but I might be an outlier in just how much it’s true for me.)
I think your preferences for are pretty typical for women with high intelligence: intelligent masculine guys who aren’t douchebags.
I don’t think it’s necessarily bad that my hindbrain works like this—on the off chance that I have “chemistry” with a guy who’s also a good match, I’ll enjoy the relationship much more than if I were Ms. Spock. It adds another dimension.
I used to hate the idea of gender dynamics in dating. But then I gave them a try, and found that some of them are actually pretty fun. A lot of it is simply aesthetics on both visual and behavioral levels.
The downside is that there’s a chance I’ll be attracted to assholes and idiots—but I believe (somewhat hopefully) that being self-aware will prevent me from making those kinds of mistakes in practice.
Imagine how self-aware you would be with about 30 less IQ points, and how well you’d make decisions about avoiding attractive assholish guys. That’s what most women are probably like.
I think women want guys with values, in principle, and are tempted by guys without values, in practice, because they like “masculine” or “alpha” behavior. It doesn’t mean that the desire to date a good person isn’t a real desire. If someone desires to get work done, but also procrastinates, would you say she doesn’t “really” want to get work done?
I think women would prefer a good person who hits the right masculinity/dominance buttons than a bad person. (Read or watch Gone With The Wind again—Rhett is actually the male character with the most integrity and smarts.)
I think you’re entirely right that men who are pretty awful people can be very attractive to women. But I think that’s because they have certain social skills that they’ve developed and relied on. And anyone can learn social skills. There’s not a one-to-one relationship between horribleness and attractiveness to women—you never hear about women being hot for Jeffrey Dahmer. Rappers swagger, make it obvious that women can’t resist them, and they’re typically in great shape. They’re popular for completely predictable reasons.
You’re probably right that some women gravitate to assholish men because they’re just not thinking (just like some men gravitate to women who have nothing going for them but their beauty.) But it’s unfair for a man to assume that every woman is going to do that, and I’d find it sad if a man compromised his more serious principles just to pick up the less self-aware women. You can make yourself more attractive without becoming a person you’d hate.
I think women want guys with values, in principle, and are tempted by guys without values, in practice, because they like “masculine” or “alpha” behavior. It doesn’t mean that the desire to date a good person isn’t a real desire.
I think this hypothesis makes a lot of sense: masculinity is the main cause of attraction, and bad values just tag on along for the ride. This hypothesis is entirely plausible to me, but I have to wonder whether it’s the whole story. For some the nastier forms, I’m not sure that masculinity and bad values are always separable; they are intertwined.
There could be several different paths by which different types of women are attracted to assholes; you’ve certainly named one of them.
If someone desires to get work done, but also procrastinates, would you say she doesn’t “really” want to get work done?
Not necessarily, but it could be the case.
(Read or watch Gone With The Wind again—Rhett is actually the male character with the most integrity and smarts.)
It’s one specific scene that I’m thinking of: the quasi-rape scene.
There’s not a one-to-one relationship between horribleness and attractiveness to women—you never hear about women being hot for Jeffrey Dahmer.
You might be surprised! Famous serial killers are very popular with women and have groupies. Female serial killers don’t have male groupies. Now, women with these preferences are probably pretty rare; women attracted to shy nerds are probably more common (2% of women are into shyness), but there are a lot more shy nerds than women into them, whereas serial killers are a scarce resource for women who are into them.
More hilariously, I have an article on my hard drive about Western women attracted to Osama bin Laden written after 9/11 (I’ll write it up sometime, but it’s behind a paywall.)
This behavior might initially seem like some sort of weird fluke, but looking at female attraction to Eminem, who raps about doing some of the things that serial killers are in for, these preferences could be conceptualized along the same continuum: serial killers are hypermasculine ultra-assholes.
See also the Draco In Leather Pants (TVTropes) phenomenon, where fangirls turn villains into objects of desire (there are some hilarious example pages at the bottom).
Fantasy is different from reality, of course. These women may have different desires in real life. Even if they have similar desires, they know better than to try to act them out, consistent with your model. The point is that such psychology seems like a watered-down, fantasy-only version of the psychology of serial killer groupies, who act out these same sorts of desires in reality.
Although there are categorical distinctions between women who lust after Eminem or dress Draco Malfoy up in leather pants, and women who go for serial killers, all these women may be the same continuum on other variables. Serial killer groupies are just at the far right of the bell curve of women attracted to assholes.
Rappers swagger, make it obvious that women can’t resist them, and they’re typically in great shape.
They swagger, but I’m not sure their swagger is always distinguishable from their misogyny. I hypothesize that being misogynistic in the context of swagger reads as attractive masculinity to some women in some subcultures. I guess the question is what sorts of female fans these rappers would gain or lose if they weren’t so misogynistic. I do think your hypothesis explains many or even most cases of female attraction to these guys; I just don’t think it’s the whole story. There are swaggering masculine guys who aren’t misogynistic; why no go for them instead?
But it’s unfair for a man to assume that every woman is going to do that, and I’d find it sad if a man compromised his more serious principles just to pick up the less self-aware women.
Agreed.
You can make yourself more attractive without becoming a person you’d hate.
That’s the conclusion of my experience. Though part of the way that I do this is by trying to have the same mystique or bad boys and aesthetic appeal, just without actually being an asshole. For instance, the way I dress is partly inspired by villains in movies… though I’ve stopped short of wearing leather pants.
Masculinity + authority + sarcasm + disagreeableness is an attractive combination for a reasonable subset of women. Alan Rickman’s looks and voice may help.
See also House, M.D. for another attractive character close by in the same region of guyspace.
Harry treated him as though he was a major villain though. He and Ron spend pretty much the whole series blaming him every time anything goes wrong. I’m guessing that simultaneously raised his villain-status and his misunderstood-guy-in-need-of-love status.
The thing is, he’s a medium-status villain. He’s a teacher and not in charge of more than his classroom. He’s not good-looking or well-dressed.
He is a lot higher status in the movies, purely due to the way he is acted. He exuded power.
I’ll also note that Snape is in charge of a house and could reasonably be considered the third most powerful in Hogwarts. Given the role Hogwarts has in Magical Britain his status would seem to be rather high.
Also, the theory of female attraction to status is not so much about global status, but about local status in interactional contexts. That’s part of why members of small-time crappy bands can do so well with women (that, plus good genes from being a musician). Global status in men is great, but local status is good enough, and it’s more attainable.
Oddly, after reading Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone for the first time, long before any of the movies came out, I too found Snape to be oddly charismatic… sure, he seemed to hate Harry for no apparent reason and go out of his way to be mean to him, but he seemed interesting in a way that many of the other characters weren’t. A hero who is consistently heroic is often a Flat Character and therefore boring.
Your perspective is that of an adult, of course; but the Harry Potter books are children’s literature, and thus (I presume) take a child’s point of view on the world. Children often perceive adult authority figures as “mean” even when they are well within the bounds of what (adult) society considers to be acceptable behavior. Such “meanness”, while unpleasant, is not something children are necessarily shocked by; they expect it in more or less the same way that adults expect “outrageous” actions from the government .
He mentally beats them—between the implied Legilimency and verbal humiliation, I think a lot of his students would have preferred the occasional physical slap or kick.
Is your point that Harry isn’t shocked by Snape’s behavior, so that a good many readers aren’t, either? I don’t remember if Harry had a general opinion about Snape’s viciousness.
The women who find Snape attractive aren’t children themselves—I don’t know what the typical lower age limit for liking Snape is.
IIRC, Rowling hated the way Snape taught. She could have presented his nastiness as part of a useful toughening process, but she didn’t.
Of course, as the books went on, not only did he eventually redeem himself, but (earlier) Umbridge made him look like a relatively less awful teacher.
Jeffrey Dahmer might have been a bit too creepy even for the serial killer groupie population, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he got an occasional love letter too.
But it’s unfair for a man to assume that every woman is going to do that, and I’d find it sad if a man compromised his more serious principles just to pick up the less self-aware women.
A lot of parents find it sad when their kids find out that santa claus isn’t real.
I think there’s a bit more to it than just women overlooking a lack of values because of other attractive factors like confidence. There’s some evidence that men with the ‘dark triad’ personality traits are more successful with women.
There’s not a one-to-one relationship between horribleness and attractiveness to women—you never hear about women being hot for Jeffrey Dahmer.
I had to google him, I also googled his name and sexy and found this. :(
He gets 28,800 hits for jeffrey dahmer sexy. Out of 275000 hits. So a sexy ratio of 0.1. I’m not sure if this is high or low for a public male figure, a lot of it will be incidental mentions.
Steve Buscemi gets a ratio of 0.03, brad pitt get 0.13. Harold shipman (another serial killer but not so handsome or gruesome) gets 0.06.
I’m not sure of my methodology, I suspect that I might do better looking for the phrase in quotes.
Ah thanks. Quotes it is, although it will under report.
“Dead elephant is sexy” gets none, as does Harrold Shipman.
Steve buscemi does better this time. 60⁄935000 = 6*10^-4
Jeffrey Dahmer gets 4/264000 = 1.5*10^-4
Jay Leno gets 112⁄4.7million = 2*10^-4
Brad pitt gets 14700⁄17.1 million = 8 * 10^-3
While not falling foul to the dead elephant problem, I’m still not happy with it methodologically. This is probably the best information we can get without searching for all the variants of “X is hot”.
Hmm, this might make a good small web app, a more advanced version of google fight that looked for relative popularity of adjectives.
Not quite the same, but Googlism is sort of a simple version of that. Also, I suspect a trolling element in the Jeffrey Dahmer page you linked, although that could be optimism at work.
Us guys, we see women saying that they want guys with intellectual and moral values, but then we often seeing women going for men who seem unlikely to exhibit those traits, and we get… confused.
This confuses me, because it seems to imply that men need to believe that a simple personality heuristic can be applied to all or almost all women. Why is it an unacceptable answer that some women like one thing, and some like another? Or did you mean the same group of women in both cases?
I used to hate the idea of gender dynamics in dating. But then I gave them a try, and found that some of them are actually pretty fun.
By “gender dynamics” in this case do you mean doing the things that you’re expected to do because of your gender? If so, yeah, some of them are pretty fun. And some of it is stuff we’re hardwired to like; I won’t argue with that. The trouble is just when we limit ourselves to broad heuristics about the whole population which gloss over the degree of individual variety, and then try to apply those on the individual scale.
This confuses me, because it seems to imply that men need to believe that a simple personality heuristic can be applied to all or almost all women. Why is it an unacceptable answer that some women like one thing, and some like another? Or did you mean the same group of women in both cases?
In other cases, it could be that the most common things women in your culture say they want, and the guys who are getting the most attention, don’t seem to match. Of course, there’s no necessary contradiction, like you say.
In other cases, it’s the same women saying one thing, and (seemingly) doing another.
There is a social desirability bias that will encourage women to signal preferences for positive traits like intelligence and values. In contrast, if you’re a woman who likes meatheads, you’ve less likely to talk about it. Furthermore, when people misstate their preferences, it’s more likely to be in the direction of positive traits than of negative traits.
For many white middle-class men, it’s drummed into their heads from an early age that women universally prefer intelligent men with values such as “respectfulness.” So when a guy sees evidence to the contrary, it makes him question anything he is told about what women want, even by women. Since it’s not politically correct for either women or men to talk about women going for anything other than intelligence and values in men, when he sees women going for men without those traits, he may freak out and start making hasty generalizations.
That’s not the most rational attitude, but it is understandable. The presence of some women misstating their preferences (or dating guys other than what they prefer) lowers the priors for men believing what other women say about their preferences. This is sad, but true.
And yes, it probably sucks for you when you are interacting with a guy, and his priors for how to interact with you are all screwed up by the ways that other women have trained him.
By “gender dynamics” in this case do you mean doing the things that you’re expected to do because of your gender? If so, yeah, some of them are pretty fun. And some of it is stuff we’re hardwired to like; I won’t argue with that.
Basically yeah.
The trouble is just when we limit ourselves to broad heuristics about the whole population which gloss over the degree of individual variety, and then try to apply those on the individual scale.
Sometimes, broad heuristics are all you have, at least to start with. “Women are misstating their preferences until proven otherwise” probably would be too broad and extreme. But a moderate degree of skepticism until proven otherwise might make sense.
Getting better reference classes can improve the heuristics used. For instance, you might know that some groups of women state their preferences more accurately than others. I propose that nerdy women are both more aware of their preferences, actually date guys who fulfill their preferences, and less likely to incorrectly state socially desirable preferences for signaling reasons. These women are also more likely to be into intelligent men with values, so on the question of those preferences, nerdy women’s claims about their preferences are more trustworthy.
Gangestad et al. found that 90-95% of women fit into a gender-typical taxon based on their interests and traits, while 5-10% of women are a gender-atypical taxon (which also contains most of the queer women). 90-95% of women are wired one way; 5-10% are wired another way. As a result, there actually probably are many examples where it’s reasonable to approach women with one set of heuristics by default unless you have special evidence that they are gender-atypical, which allows you to pull out some different heuristics.
It may be the case that the 5-10% of gender atypical women contain most of the nerdy women, and disproportionately state their preferences accurately.
This confuses me, because it seems to imply that men need to believe that a simple personality heuristic can be applied to all or almost all women. Why is it an unacceptable answer that some women like one thing, and some like another?
The prevalence of different personality types in the population is very relevant here and you seem to be glossing over it. If the number of women attracted to your personality type is relatively low (and especially if it is low relative to the number of other men similar to you) it will still be an obstacle you need to overcome in finding a partner even if you believe that there are women out there who would be attracted to you. Internet dating has probably helped with this a bit by making it easier to find potential matches but it can’t overcome seriously unfavourable relative numbers.
I’d compare this with employment. Every now and then, you see a media story about some company with a highly unusual internal culture that uses all sorts of unconventional practices in hiring, organization, and management. Yet unless you luckily stumble onto some such employer and happen to be an exceptionally good candidate by their standards, you would be well-advised to stick to the standard conventional advice on how to look and behave in job interviews and, subsequently, in the workplace. In fact, doing anything else would mean sabotaging your employment and career prospects, and expecting that your unconventional behavior will surely be rewarded with a dream job with an unconventional employer is a delusional pipe-dream.
The main flaw of this analogy, of course, is that the conventional wisdom on seeking and maintaining employment is largely correct, whereas the conventional wisdom on dating has fatal points of disconnect from reality. Also, while conforming to optimal workplace behavior is truly painful for many people, fixing the problems in one’s approach to dating and relationships typically doesn’t require any such painful and loathsome adjustment. (Even though people often rationalize their unwillingness to do it by convincing themselves in the opposite.)
You’re probably right but ironically I’ve ignored much of the standard advice on employment and it’s worked out just fine for me so this example doesn’t resonate very well for me. I’ve never worn a suit to a job interview for example.
Certainly! If he’d said “women who might like me tend to also like …” I’d have understood. My confusion was because there was no such qualification, or anything else limiting the population under discussion beyond “women,” but the commenter seemed to expect consistency within that population.
The prevalence of different personality types in the population is very relevant here and you seem to be glossing over it.
I assumed he was saying something like “the majority of women prefer a man more ‘masculine’ than the median man”. By analogy, if it is true that “the majority of men prefer a woman who is slimmer than the median woman” it should be obvious that being overweight will make it harder for a woman to find a match even if there are men who prefer less slim women. Saying “men prefer slim women” is a slightly sloppy generalization but not an unreasonable one in this example.
We might be looking at different parts of the comment under discussion, because I’ve completely lost the correlation between what we’re talking about and what I actually read. At this point I’d rather just drop it.
What do you think about women who are into Rhett Butler, and other “dark heroes” from romance novels?
Dark heroes in romance novels generally aren’t disrespectful or aggressive towards the heroine, and if they are domineering or deceptive towards the heroine, it’s generally motivated by something that the hero at least believes is for the heroine’s good, and often at the expense of the hero’s own interests.
For example, if a fantasy-romance novel heroine gets put under a curse that makes her terribly lustful under the full moon, the heroine might lock her up to protect her… even if she secretly wants to have sex with him anyway, and he wants her as well. Or in an adventure-romance where the heroine is a trained assassin with genetic superpowers, the hero might trick her into getting left behind when he goes to kill the bad guy, to protect her… even if his powers aren’t as powerful as hers, or he has no powers at all besides his secret agent training.
Even if the hero is a bad guy with a past, his actions toward the heroine never turn out to be actually evil or unprincipled, though they may be mistaken and tragic for one or both of them.
(To be fair, romance has a lot of subgenres, and my knowledge is limited to skimming the books my wife has left in the bathroom over the last 20 years or so, and a handful of conversations with her about the emotional and sexual significance of the various tropes in the genres she reads. It’s possible that things are different in subgenres she doesn’t read, like “contemporary”; she almost entirely prefers ones with fantasy, SF, adventure, and other “non-realistic” themes, since this lets her get two categories worth of entertainment at once. ;-) But I’d be a bit surprised if it’s dramatically different.)
I think it’s fair to say that a lot of romance fiction is powered by the idea of a frightening man, even if, as you say, he has a good reason. I admit that this conclusion is the result of realizing that I don’t like the genre, and I think that’s the reason.
The thing I don’t understand in all these discussion is I know a fair number of men in long term—and sometimes happy—relationships. They aren’t high-display of masculinity guys, and yet, somehow they’ve hooked up with someone. How did they manage it?
Gone with the Wind is a hard thing to argue from. It’s an extraordinary book—very popular, but never duplicated. One of the things that drives it is that Scarlett is much more motivated by survival and status than the average female lead.
I just realized—it’s actually an example of a relatively rare sort of women’s fiction. Perfect guy shows up, but the woman is too busy to notice for most of the novel. The other examples I’ve got (Murder with Peacocks and Good in Bed), she’s distracted by a bunch of things going on in her life, but not by being in love with the wrong guy. In a normal novel, she’d realize she’s in love with him while he was still in love with her.
Also, it’s interesting that I’ve never heard anyone say that it was implausible for Scarlett to be fixated on Ashley.
Part of what makes these discussions messy is that the fantasies that hook the hindbrain aren’t necessarily what people want to live. There are a lot more men who like action movies than who’d like to be in violent fights.
The thing I don’t understand in all these discussion is I know a fair number of men in long term—and sometimes happy—relationships. They aren’t high-display of masculinity guys, and yet, somehow they’ve hooked up with someone. How did they manage it?
How old are they? Most people get married eventually. Furthermore, the older people get, the more they switch over to long-term mating strategies.
If you’re an average guy, eventually you’re going to “get lucky” and run into a woman who is into you. As people get older, more and more women get tired of bad boys and switch over to their long-term mating strategies (and in some cases, are looking for men to support them).
So our average guy will find a mate. The question is, how many years go by while he is only dating sporadically, while women (on average) are off having fun with the more masculine and exciting guys? When he finally does find someone, how much choice does he actually have? What is her level of attractiveness (in various areas) compared to his? Is she the “one” who is “right” for him, or is she simply the one woman who has shown interest in him in the past few years?
It seems that during youth, most people do some combination of short-term mating and attempted-but-aborted serial long-term relationships, until eventually they find a good match. People test-drive each other. According to the model I’m outlining, women concentrate their test driving towards men at the top, while men’s test driving
of women is more evenly distributed (though of course, still skewed).
As a result, men who aren’t flashy rides get disproportionately overlooked or cut out of the developmental test-driving stage, until with time women’s average preferences shift and they want something more dependable. I’ve heard men express frustration with this situation and ask, “if the kitten didn’t want me, do I want the cat?”
Sex differences in attraction is also important. For men, looks are relatively more important in attraction, while for women, behavior/personality is relatively more important. If you are a guy dating people you find attractive, they can still turn out to be good long-term mates for you. But for women, the guys you find most attractive during youth may have personality traits that exclude them from making good long-term mates. Of course, there is variation in women on this trait: for some, their ideal short-term mate and ideal long-term mate are the same guy. On average, the people who young women are sexually excited about are less likely to make good long-term mates than the people young men are excited about.
I think it’s fair to say that a lot of romance fiction is powered by the idea of a frightening man, even if, as you say, he has a good reason. I admit that this conclusion is the result of realizing that I don’t like the genre, and I think that’s the reason.
Given that there are so many subgenres of romance, I suspect we are talking about different ones. In the small sample of my wife’s books that I’ve read, the hero is never described as frightening to the heroine. Typically, he takes the form of an annoying rival who the heroine believes is overconfident or arrogant, someone whose goals are (superficially and initially) at odds with those of the heroine. (It then usually turns out that one or both characters have been operating on the basis of a mistaken impression about the other’s goals or character.)
But I have never seen fear described as a heroine’s reaction to anything except the villain, or her feelings for the hero. (Or more precisely, her anticipation of the problematic consequences of allowing her feelings for him to develop and be acted upon.)
Fear of the hero himself, or his actions, though? To my recollection, never happens in these genres.
Thanks for the information. I may have been over-influenced by the blurbs on paranormal romances.
And my take on “frightening” was that these are guys who any reasonable person with ordinary human abilities would find frightening, whether the heroine does or not.
The thing I don’t understand in all these discussion is I know a fair number of men in long term—and sometimes happy—relationships. They aren’t high-display of masculinity guys, and yet, somehow they’ve hooked up with someone. How did they manage it?
From the “Perception Lab” at St Andrews:
Women’s preferences for men’s facial masculinity are especially interesting, as there is great variation in preferences across individuals. These preferences have been demonstrated to vary with age, womens’ own self-rated attractiveness, and across different phases of their menstrual cycle.
Older women tend to prefer more feminine faces. Women in the infertile part of their fertility cycle tend to prefer more feminine faces. Women rating themselves as less attractive tend to prefer more feminine faces.
By the way, I don’t mean to imply that your guy friends in particular are in stable relationships because of these tendencies—I can think of many other reasons beyond the differing attractiveness of their faces, or their demeanour.
Part of what makes these discussions messy is that the fantasies that hook the hindbrain aren’t necessarily what people want to live. There are a lot more men who like action movies than who’d like to be in violent fights.
This deserves emphasis. Our instincts are not interested in our happiness. There is no reason to presume that those we are most attracted to will be the same as those who will be the most satisfying either in the long or short term. (Although it is certainly strong evidence to be considered as well as a direct contributor to that satisfaction.)
The thing I don’t understand in all these discussion is I know a fair number of men in long term—and sometimes happy—relationships. They aren’t high-display of masculinity guys, and yet,
Are these mostly older guys or more precisely guys in LTRs with older women?
The increase over the last 4 decades in female personal income has made the “beta good provider” male strategy less successful.
Also, some (e.g., the Man Who Is Thursday) say that the increase in female promiscuity has had a similar effect because (the thinking goes) once a woman has had sex with 1 or 2 extremely exciting men, she is less likely to settle for a LTR with a much less exciting one (and as long as she does not demand any sort of commitment from them, a woman using a “modern” sexual strategy will probably have sex with 1 or 2 extremely exciting men).
Although I have a relatively small circle of friends, even I have a friend of a friend, now in her 60s, who only ever had sex with one man (the father of her kids to which she is still married) and she was quite beautiful, grew up in the proverbial big city (Manhattan) and has and had no notable social handicaps.
Also, some (e.g., the Man Who Is Thursday) say that the increase in female promiscuity has had a similar effect because (the thinking goes) once a woman has had sex with 1 or 2 extremely exciting men, she is less likely to settle for a LTR with a much less exciting one (and as long as she does not demand any sort of commitment from them, a woman using a “modern” sexual strategy will probably have sex with 1 or 2 extremely exciting men).
If she doesn’t demand any sort of commitment from them, she can have sex with many more extremely exciting men than that, if she’s at all attractive. Even less attractive women can similarly easily have lots of sex and non-serious relationships with men who are far above what they can realistically expect to get for serious commitment, even if they won’t be extremely exciting by absolute standards, so the same principle applies.
There was a discussion of this issue on LW recently. If anyone’s interested, these are my thoughts on the subject, and here I comment on some relevant research.
I’m not sure what the typical age for starting the relationships was.
OK but note that my point is not that women get less choosy as they get older (though that is almost certainly true) but rather that it was easier for a man of average attractiveness to win the hand of a 30-year-old woman 30 or 40 years ago than it is today.
IIRC, a study a couple of years back that said that the male hero raped the female heroine in about half of a large sample of romance novels they looked at. Can’t remember how they chose their sample.
Dark heroes in romance novels generally aren’t disrespectful or aggressive towards the heroine, and if they are domineering or deceptive towards the heroine, it’s generally motivated by something that the hero at least believes is for the heroine’s good, and often at the expense of the hero’s own interests.
That is disrespectful. It’s asserting that the hero knows better than the heroine what’s good for her, and is entitled to act on her behalf. In my mind that’s a much, much more dangerous meme than outright acting maliciously.
That is disrespectful. It’s asserting that the hero knows better than the heroine what’s good for her, and is entitled to act on her behalf. In my mind that’s a much, much more dangerous meme than outright acting maliciously.
The phrase ‘dangerous meme’ jumped out at me. I agree that it is disrespectful and I personally make an effort to prevent people that try from having any part of my life. I actually have to bite my tongue at times so that I don’t point out to young adults “You don’t have to take that. You can choose your own boundaries, with consideration of your options and likely outcomes.” (That put me in a particularly interesting situation when I was a teacher!)
But going from ‘undesirable behavior’ to ‘dangerous meme’, well, strikes me as dangerous. It seems like a move from discussing behavioral preferences to considering the very fact that the behavioural pattern appeals to some people or plays a role in their literature of choice is wrong.
I find the kinds of romance novels in question decidedly unappealing. Not just because they are aimed at women but because they are aimed at a different subset of women than those with whom I most empathise with. But I do know that there people who actually appreciate or are attracted to these same behaviours that I find obnoxious. Judging the very meme just because I personally don’t prefer the behaviour would seem presumptive.
I don’t think I intended the phrase as strongly as you interpreted it. However, “undesireable behavior” is too weak. As noted in another fork of this thread, I think that kind of paternalism is totally out of place between any two capable adults, but invididual cases are not what I’m talking about here. I’m talking about the notion that “members of group X know better than/are entitled to look after members of group Y.” The particular example given happens to be sexist, but it would be offensive for any two groups of normal grown-ups. Perpetuating that idea in popular culture, e.g. via popular fiction, has negative effects on members of both groups, even if they’re not directly exposed to the fiction itself.
I’m talking about the notion that “members of group X know better than/are entitled to look after members of group Y.”
That’s not a notion that was actually present in the context and nor is it one that you introduced yourself (until now). I say this not to be pedantic or to accuse you of any form of inconsistency but rather because there is an implicit assumption that I don’t share. The one that allows a leap from a fictional stories where a female protagonist interacts with an objectionably dominant hero to the general claim “members of group X know better than/are entitled to look after members of group Y”.
The particular example given happens to be sexist, but it would be offensive for any two groups of normal grown-ups.
The particular example given happens to be of heroes who are sexist (or just excessively dominant) and female heroines with arguably terrible taste. If someone is offended that the heroine is attracted to the domineering hero or offended that a woman likes to read such books or empathises with the character then that is the problem of the person taking offence. Not the problem of the author, not the problem of the fictional protagonist and not the problem of literary porn fan.
While my position on what it makes sense to declare offensive may well be irreconcilably opposed to your own it may be interesting to note that my objection here is actually similar to the objection that we both would share to the heroine being overridden. It is not OK to prevent (or shame or otherwise apply moral sanction against) people having, reading or writing stories that appeal to their own emotions. It is not OK to condemn literature because the character doesn’t fit an ideal.
I don’t think “members of group know better than/are entitled to look after members of group ”. Actually, you probably do ‘know better than’ but it is the ‘are entitled to look after’ that is in play when we consider declaring things offensive.
Yes, this particular example is of individuals in just a few works of fiction. But the pattern does happen to exist in many more. And it does happen to be a pretty common idea in our culture. I’m not deriving that from the few examples given; I’m deriving that from living in the culture. I’m not looking out for readers-of-that-fiction, I’m looking out for me, who has to live with them, and with the people who learn values from them.
I’m also withdrawing from this conversation, because the amount of mental effort it’s taking to participate is exceeding the payoff significantly.
I’m also withdrawing from this conversation, because the amount of mental effort it’s taking to participate is exceeding the payoff significantly.
In all sincerity the my goal in this conversation was not primarily to maximise the immediate enjoyment of the participants, for all that I do not like draining the mental energies of either others or myself. The role of morality has been discussed elsewhere recently and within that role declarations of things that things should be considered offensive or shamed serves as a powerful power play. It even more powerful when the assumption that something is sexist, prejudiced or otherwise normatively wrong is passed off implicitly without question. It takes very little for such beliefs or injunctions to become unquestionable and once in place can be a significant inhibitor of personal freedom.
The task of minimising personal offence while at the same time acting to make a social move too expensive for it to be worth their while to try frequently is one that is quite difficult.
That is disrespectful. It’s asserting that the hero knows better than the heroine what’s good for her, and is entitled to act on her behalf.
You’re leaving out the part where I said that the hero’s actions could be mistaken and/or tragic: i.e., in actual romance novels it’s quite often the case that the hero only thinks he knows better than the heroine, that she fights his actions every step of the way, and/or the actions lead to bad results.
I’m also a bit confused as to how you can say that either of the specific examples I gave qualify as “disrespectful”. If somebody throws themselves in front of a bullet for you, is that being disrespectful because they think they know what’s better for you?
might lock her up to protect her… might trick her into getting left behind when he goes to kill the bad guy, to protect her
I don’t see either of these as analogous to throwing himself in front of a bullet. In both cases he’s making a choice for her which she is capable of making herself—he’s taking care of her instead of letting her take care of herself. Even in the first case, there’s precedent in werewolf fiction for the lycanthrope to be voluntarily restrained to minimize damage. In the second case he’s also mislelading her so as to actually prevent her from making the choice to, say, protect him with her superior abilities.
It would be equally messed up if you switched the gender roles—saying “I’m going to do what I’ve decided is good for you instead of letting you make your own choices” always is, between two capable grownups. This just happens to be the direction which conforms to the popular trope about who is supposed to take care of whom.
It would be equally messed up if you switched the gender roles—saying “I’m going to do what I’ve decided is good for you instead of letting you make your own choices” always is, between two capable grownups. This just happens to be the direction which conforms to the popular trope about who is supposed to take care of whom.
This particular aspect may be unique to the romance genres my wife reads, but ISTM that the female leads in these novels are just as likely to make the same sort of imposingly-yet-self-sacrificing decisions for the male leads—i.e., both parties doing it in the same novel, prior to reaching a saner equilibrium. The contextual implication I draw from the few ones that I read myself, is that:
1) The signal “I will do what it takes to protect you, even if you disagree” is covertly found attractive by the heroine, even when her rational/overt reaction is that it’s stupid, unnecessary, condescending, chauvinistic etc. (This distinction is usually reflected in the heroine’s inner and outer dialogs),
2) While the signal is valued, the actual behavior and effects are not—by the time they reach “happily ever after”, the hero grudgingly agrees to limit his heroic impulses to merely vigorously arguing and protesting against courses of action he deems too dangerous, rather than outright sabotage or quasi-suicidal pre-emptions.
Hypothesis: once the hero has established the credibility of his signaled concern by actually putting himself at risk, the heroine can simply enjoy the now-credible verbal signals, without having the ongoing cost of excessive risk to him, or the annoyance of being treated somewhat condescendingly.
SarahC said:
What do you think causes the common perception that women are not serious about caring about intellectual or moral values? Are you saying that it’s extremely rare for women to say this unseriously, or that you just don’t like being judged as non-serious on such a claim merely because a non-trivial percentage of women may make it incorrectly? What level of variation do you think occurs in the female population in this area.
Us guys, we see women saying that they want guys with intellectual and moral values, but then we often seeing women going for men who seem unlikely to exhibit those traits, and we get… confused. Since this kind of subject isn’t politically correct to talk about, when a guy sees something like this happening, it will dominate his thinking and lead to hasty generalizations about what all women want (like your example of “women just want sex with assholes”).
What do you think about women who are into Rhett Butler, and other “dark heroes” from romance novels? If that example is too fictional, how about, say, rappers?
Here’s an interesting passage from feminist author Jackson Katz about the popularity of Eminem with women, and the message it sends to guys:
Moving on...
I think your preferences for are pretty typical for women with high intelligence: intelligent masculine guys who aren’t douchebags.
I used to hate the idea of gender dynamics in dating. But then I gave them a try, and found that some of them are actually pretty fun. A lot of it is simply aesthetics on both visual and behavioral levels.
Imagine how self-aware you would be with about 30 less IQ points, and how well you’d make decisions about avoiding attractive assholish guys. That’s what most women are probably like.
I think women want guys with values, in principle, and are tempted by guys without values, in practice, because they like “masculine” or “alpha” behavior. It doesn’t mean that the desire to date a good person isn’t a real desire. If someone desires to get work done, but also procrastinates, would you say she doesn’t “really” want to get work done?
I think women would prefer a good person who hits the right masculinity/dominance buttons than a bad person. (Read or watch Gone With The Wind again—Rhett is actually the male character with the most integrity and smarts.)
I think you’re entirely right that men who are pretty awful people can be very attractive to women. But I think that’s because they have certain social skills that they’ve developed and relied on. And anyone can learn social skills. There’s not a one-to-one relationship between horribleness and attractiveness to women—you never hear about women being hot for Jeffrey Dahmer. Rappers swagger, make it obvious that women can’t resist them, and they’re typically in great shape. They’re popular for completely predictable reasons.
You’re probably right that some women gravitate to assholish men because they’re just not thinking (just like some men gravitate to women who have nothing going for them but their beauty.) But it’s unfair for a man to assume that every woman is going to do that, and I’d find it sad if a man compromised his more serious principles just to pick up the less self-aware women. You can make yourself more attractive without becoming a person you’d hate.
I think this hypothesis makes a lot of sense: masculinity is the main cause of attraction, and bad values just tag on along for the ride. This hypothesis is entirely plausible to me, but I have to wonder whether it’s the whole story. For some the nastier forms, I’m not sure that masculinity and bad values are always separable; they are intertwined.
There could be several different paths by which different types of women are attracted to assholes; you’ve certainly named one of them.
Not necessarily, but it could be the case.
It’s one specific scene that I’m thinking of: the quasi-rape scene.
You might be surprised! Famous serial killers are very popular with women and have groupies. Female serial killers don’t have male groupies. Now, women with these preferences are probably pretty rare; women attracted to shy nerds are probably more common (2% of women are into shyness), but there are a lot more shy nerds than women into them, whereas serial killers are a scarce resource for women who are into them.
More hilariously, I have an article on my hard drive about Western women attracted to Osama bin Laden written after 9/11 (I’ll write it up sometime, but it’s behind a paywall.)
This behavior might initially seem like some sort of weird fluke, but looking at female attraction to Eminem, who raps about doing some of the things that serial killers are in for, these preferences could be conceptualized along the same continuum: serial killers are hypermasculine ultra-assholes.
See also the Draco In Leather Pants (TVTropes) phenomenon, where fangirls turn villains into objects of desire (there are some hilarious example pages at the bottom).
Fantasy is different from reality, of course. These women may have different desires in real life. Even if they have similar desires, they know better than to try to act them out, consistent with your model. The point is that such psychology seems like a watered-down, fantasy-only version of the psychology of serial killer groupies, who act out these same sorts of desires in reality.
Although there are categorical distinctions between women who lust after Eminem or dress Draco Malfoy up in leather pants, and women who go for serial killers, all these women may be the same continuum on other variables. Serial killer groupies are just at the far right of the bell curve of women attracted to assholes.
They swagger, but I’m not sure their swagger is always distinguishable from their misogyny. I hypothesize that being misogynistic in the context of swagger reads as attractive masculinity to some women in some subcultures. I guess the question is what sorts of female fans these rappers would gain or lose if they weren’t so misogynistic. I do think your hypothesis explains many or even most cases of female attraction to these guys; I just don’t think it’s the whole story. There are swaggering masculine guys who aren’t misogynistic; why no go for them instead?
Agreed.
That’s the conclusion of my experience. Though part of the way that I do this is by trying to have the same mystique or bad boys and aesthetic appeal, just without actually being an asshole. For instance, the way I dress is partly inspired by villains in movies… though I’ve stopped short of wearing leather pants.
I’ve had some success while dressed as Darth Sideous… but I’ve got my suspicions that was despite not because. ;)
Can you give some examples of the sort of villains you are considering here?
It’s very odd that a lot of women find Snape attractive. Where does he fit into the theory?
Masculinity + authority + sarcasm + disagreeableness is an attractive combination for a reasonable subset of women. Alan Rickman’s looks and voice may help.
See also House, M.D. for another attractive character close by in the same region of guyspace.
I would go with villain-type + played by Alan Rickman in the movies
The thing is, he’s a medium-status villain. He’s a teacher and not in charge of more than his classroom. He’s not good-looking or well-dressed.
I believe he was the subject of a lot of fan fiction before the movies came out.
Harry treated him as though he was a major villain though. He and Ron spend pretty much the whole series blaming him every time anything goes wrong. I’m guessing that simultaneously raised his villain-status and his misunderstood-guy-in-need-of-love status.
He is a lot higher status in the movies, purely due to the way he is acted. He exuded power.
I’ll also note that Snape is in charge of a house and could reasonably be considered the third most powerful in Hogwarts. Given the role Hogwarts has in Magical Britain his status would seem to be rather high.
And he looks and talks like Alan Rickman!
Also, the theory of female attraction to status is not so much about global status, but about local status in interactional contexts. That’s part of why members of small-time crappy bands can do so well with women (that, plus good genes from being a musician). Global status in men is great, but local status is good enough, and it’s more attainable.
I’ll agree here. I didn’t like him at all in the books, but after the movies…
Oddly, after reading Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone for the first time, long before any of the movies came out, I too found Snape to be oddly charismatic… sure, he seemed to hate Harry for no apparent reason and go out of his way to be mean to him, but he seemed interesting in a way that many of the other characters weren’t. A hero who is consistently heroic is often a Flat Character and therefore boring.
For me, bullies children = utterly revolting.
I’m surprised this isn’t widely shared, but I seem to be an odd person in many respects.
Your perspective is that of an adult, of course; but the Harry Potter books are children’s literature, and thus (I presume) take a child’s point of view on the world. Children often perceive adult authority figures as “mean” even when they are well within the bounds of what (adult) society considers to be acceptable behavior. Such “meanness”, while unpleasant, is not something children are necessarily shocked by; they expect it in more or less the same way that adults expect “outrageous” actions from the government .
Snape doesn’t even beat the children does he? That puts him ahead of what has often been considered acceptable behaviour to direct towards children.
He mentally beats them—between the implied Legilimency and verbal humiliation, I think a lot of his students would have preferred the occasional physical slap or kick.
Is your point that Harry isn’t shocked by Snape’s behavior, so that a good many readers aren’t, either? I don’t remember if Harry had a general opinion about Snape’s viciousness.
The women who find Snape attractive aren’t children themselves—I don’t know what the typical lower age limit for liking Snape is.
IIRC, Rowling hated the way Snape taught. She could have presented his nastiness as part of a useful toughening process, but she didn’t.
Of course, as the books went on, not only did he eventually redeem himself, but (earlier) Umbridge made him look like a relatively less awful teacher.
I agree; Snape ought to have been revolting. I don’t know why he wasn’t.
SarahC:
Not a one-to-one relationship, to be sure, but stories like this strongly suggest some positive statistical relation: “No shortage of women who dream of snaring a husband on Death Row: experts ponder why deadliest criminals get so many proposals.” The article references an academic book that dedicates a chapter to the phenomenon.
Jeffrey Dahmer might have been a bit too creepy even for the serial killer groupie population, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he got an occasional love letter too.
Dammit, V_M, you ninja’d me by posting that article before I could post my analysis.
A lot of parents find it sad when their kids find out that santa claus isn’t real.
I think there’s a bit more to it than just women overlooking a lack of values because of other attractive factors like confidence. There’s some evidence that men with the ‘dark triad’ personality traits are more successful with women.
mattnewport:
Here’s the research paper on which the article you link was based:
http://www.mysmu.edu/faculty/normanli/JonasonLiWebsterSchmitt2009.pdf
I had to google him, I also googled his name and sexy and found this. :(
He gets 28,800 hits for jeffrey dahmer sexy. Out of 275000 hits. So a sexy ratio of 0.1. I’m not sure if this is high or low for a public male figure, a lot of it will be incidental mentions.
Steve Buscemi gets a ratio of 0.03, brad pitt get 0.13. Harold shipman (another serial killer but not so handsome or gruesome) gets 0.06.
I’m not sure of my methodology, I suspect that I might do better looking for the phrase in quotes.
Dead elephant gets a ratio of 0.59.
Ah thanks. Quotes it is, although it will under report.
“Dead elephant is sexy” gets none, as does Harrold Shipman.
Steve buscemi does better this time. 60⁄935000 = 6*10^-4
Jeffrey Dahmer gets 4/264000 = 1.5*10^-4
Jay Leno gets 112⁄4.7million = 2*10^-4
Brad pitt gets 14700⁄17.1 million = 8 * 10^-3
While not falling foul to the dead elephant problem, I’m still not happy with it methodologically. This is probably the best information we can get without searching for all the variants of “X is hot”.
Hmm, this might make a good small web app, a more advanced version of google fight that looked for relative popularity of adjectives.
Not quite the same, but Googlism is sort of a simple version of that. Also, I suspect a trolling element in the Jeffrey Dahmer page you linked, although that could be optimism at work.
This confuses me, because it seems to imply that men need to believe that a simple personality heuristic can be applied to all or almost all women. Why is it an unacceptable answer that some women like one thing, and some like another? Or did you mean the same group of women in both cases?
By “gender dynamics” in this case do you mean doing the things that you’re expected to do because of your gender? If so, yeah, some of them are pretty fun. And some of it is stuff we’re hardwired to like; I won’t argue with that. The trouble is just when we limit ourselves to broad heuristics about the whole population which gloss over the degree of individual variety, and then try to apply those on the individual scale.
In other cases, it could be that the most common things women in your culture say they want, and the guys who are getting the most attention, don’t seem to match. Of course, there’s no necessary contradiction, like you say.
In other cases, it’s the same women saying one thing, and (seemingly) doing another.
There is a social desirability bias that will encourage women to signal preferences for positive traits like intelligence and values. In contrast, if you’re a woman who likes meatheads, you’ve less likely to talk about it. Furthermore, when people misstate their preferences, it’s more likely to be in the direction of positive traits than of negative traits.
For many white middle-class men, it’s drummed into their heads from an early age that women universally prefer intelligent men with values such as “respectfulness.” So when a guy sees evidence to the contrary, it makes him question anything he is told about what women want, even by women. Since it’s not politically correct for either women or men to talk about women going for anything other than intelligence and values in men, when he sees women going for men without those traits, he may freak out and start making hasty generalizations.
That’s not the most rational attitude, but it is understandable. The presence of some women misstating their preferences (or dating guys other than what they prefer) lowers the priors for men believing what other women say about their preferences. This is sad, but true.
And yes, it probably sucks for you when you are interacting with a guy, and his priors for how to interact with you are all screwed up by the ways that other women have trained him.
Basically yeah.
Sometimes, broad heuristics are all you have, at least to start with. “Women are misstating their preferences until proven otherwise” probably would be too broad and extreme. But a moderate degree of skepticism until proven otherwise might make sense.
Getting better reference classes can improve the heuristics used. For instance, you might know that some groups of women state their preferences more accurately than others. I propose that nerdy women are both more aware of their preferences, actually date guys who fulfill their preferences, and less likely to incorrectly state socially desirable preferences for signaling reasons. These women are also more likely to be into intelligent men with values, so on the question of those preferences, nerdy women’s claims about their preferences are more trustworthy.
Gangestad et al. found that 90-95% of women fit into a gender-typical taxon based on their interests and traits, while 5-10% of women are a gender-atypical taxon (which also contains most of the queer women). 90-95% of women are wired one way; 5-10% are wired another way. As a result, there actually probably are many examples where it’s reasonable to approach women with one set of heuristics by default unless you have special evidence that they are gender-atypical, which allows you to pull out some different heuristics.
It may be the case that the 5-10% of gender atypical women contain most of the nerdy women, and disproportionately state their preferences accurately.
The prevalence of different personality types in the population is very relevant here and you seem to be glossing over it. If the number of women attracted to your personality type is relatively low (and especially if it is low relative to the number of other men similar to you) it will still be an obstacle you need to overcome in finding a partner even if you believe that there are women out there who would be attracted to you. Internet dating has probably helped with this a bit by making it easier to find potential matches but it can’t overcome seriously unfavourable relative numbers.
I’d compare this with employment. Every now and then, you see a media story about some company with a highly unusual internal culture that uses all sorts of unconventional practices in hiring, organization, and management. Yet unless you luckily stumble onto some such employer and happen to be an exceptionally good candidate by their standards, you would be well-advised to stick to the standard conventional advice on how to look and behave in job interviews and, subsequently, in the workplace. In fact, doing anything else would mean sabotaging your employment and career prospects, and expecting that your unconventional behavior will surely be rewarded with a dream job with an unconventional employer is a delusional pipe-dream.
The main flaw of this analogy, of course, is that the conventional wisdom on seeking and maintaining employment is largely correct, whereas the conventional wisdom on dating has fatal points of disconnect from reality. Also, while conforming to optimal workplace behavior is truly painful for many people, fixing the problems in one’s approach to dating and relationships typically doesn’t require any such painful and loathsome adjustment. (Even though people often rationalize their unwillingness to do it by convincing themselves in the opposite.)
You’re probably right but ironically I’ve ignored much of the standard advice on employment and it’s worked out just fine for me so this example doesn’t resonate very well for me. I’ve never worn a suit to a job interview for example.
Certainly! If he’d said “women who might like me tend to also like …” I’d have understood. My confusion was because there was no such qualification, or anything else limiting the population under discussion beyond “women,” but the commenter seemed to expect consistency within that population.
This is what I thought I was saying. :)
I assumed he was saying something like “the majority of women prefer a man more ‘masculine’ than the median man”. By analogy, if it is true that “the majority of men prefer a woman who is slimmer than the median woman” it should be obvious that being overweight will make it harder for a woman to find a match even if there are men who prefer less slim women. Saying “men prefer slim women” is a slightly sloppy generalization but not an unreasonable one in this example.
We might be looking at different parts of the comment under discussion, because I’ve completely lost the correlation between what we’re talking about and what I actually read. At this point I’d rather just drop it.
Dark heroes in romance novels generally aren’t disrespectful or aggressive towards the heroine, and if they are domineering or deceptive towards the heroine, it’s generally motivated by something that the hero at least believes is for the heroine’s good, and often at the expense of the hero’s own interests.
For example, if a fantasy-romance novel heroine gets put under a curse that makes her terribly lustful under the full moon, the heroine might lock her up to protect her… even if she secretly wants to have sex with him anyway, and he wants her as well. Or in an adventure-romance where the heroine is a trained assassin with genetic superpowers, the hero might trick her into getting left behind when he goes to kill the bad guy, to protect her… even if his powers aren’t as powerful as hers, or he has no powers at all besides his secret agent training.
Even if the hero is a bad guy with a past, his actions toward the heroine never turn out to be actually evil or unprincipled, though they may be mistaken and tragic for one or both of them.
(To be fair, romance has a lot of subgenres, and my knowledge is limited to skimming the books my wife has left in the bathroom over the last 20 years or so, and a handful of conversations with her about the emotional and sexual significance of the various tropes in the genres she reads. It’s possible that things are different in subgenres she doesn’t read, like “contemporary”; she almost entirely prefers ones with fantasy, SF, adventure, and other “non-realistic” themes, since this lets her get two categories worth of entertainment at once. ;-) But I’d be a bit surprised if it’s dramatically different.)
I think it’s fair to say that a lot of romance fiction is powered by the idea of a frightening man, even if, as you say, he has a good reason. I admit that this conclusion is the result of realizing that I don’t like the genre, and I think that’s the reason.
The thing I don’t understand in all these discussion is I know a fair number of men in long term—and sometimes happy—relationships. They aren’t high-display of masculinity guys, and yet, somehow they’ve hooked up with someone. How did they manage it?
Gone with the Wind is a hard thing to argue from. It’s an extraordinary book—very popular, but never duplicated. One of the things that drives it is that Scarlett is much more motivated by survival and status than the average female lead.
I just realized—it’s actually an example of a relatively rare sort of women’s fiction. Perfect guy shows up, but the woman is too busy to notice for most of the novel. The other examples I’ve got (Murder with Peacocks and Good in Bed), she’s distracted by a bunch of things going on in her life, but not by being in love with the wrong guy. In a normal novel, she’d realize she’s in love with him while he was still in love with her.
Also, it’s interesting that I’ve never heard anyone say that it was implausible for Scarlett to be fixated on Ashley.
Part of what makes these discussions messy is that the fantasies that hook the hindbrain aren’t necessarily what people want to live. There are a lot more men who like action movies than who’d like to be in violent fights.
How old are they? Most people get married eventually. Furthermore, the older people get, the more they switch over to long-term mating strategies.
If you’re an average guy, eventually you’re going to “get lucky” and run into a woman who is into you. As people get older, more and more women get tired of bad boys and switch over to their long-term mating strategies (and in some cases, are looking for men to support them).
So our average guy will find a mate. The question is, how many years go by while he is only dating sporadically, while women (on average) are off having fun with the more masculine and exciting guys? When he finally does find someone, how much choice does he actually have? What is her level of attractiveness (in various areas) compared to his? Is she the “one” who is “right” for him, or is she simply the one woman who has shown interest in him in the past few years?
It seems that during youth, most people do some combination of short-term mating and attempted-but-aborted serial long-term relationships, until eventually they find a good match. People test-drive each other. According to the model I’m outlining, women concentrate their test driving towards men at the top, while men’s test driving of women is more evenly distributed (though of course, still skewed).
As a result, men who aren’t flashy rides get disproportionately overlooked or cut out of the developmental test-driving stage, until with time women’s average preferences shift and they want something more dependable. I’ve heard men express frustration with this situation and ask, “if the kitten didn’t want me, do I want the cat?”
Sex differences in attraction is also important. For men, looks are relatively more important in attraction, while for women, behavior/personality is relatively more important. If you are a guy dating people you find attractive, they can still turn out to be good long-term mates for you. But for women, the guys you find most attractive during youth may have personality traits that exclude them from making good long-term mates. Of course, there is variation in women on this trait: for some, their ideal short-term mate and ideal long-term mate are the same guy. On average, the people who young women are sexually excited about are less likely to make good long-term mates than the people young men are excited about.
Given that there are so many subgenres of romance, I suspect we are talking about different ones. In the small sample of my wife’s books that I’ve read, the hero is never described as frightening to the heroine. Typically, he takes the form of an annoying rival who the heroine believes is overconfident or arrogant, someone whose goals are (superficially and initially) at odds with those of the heroine. (It then usually turns out that one or both characters have been operating on the basis of a mistaken impression about the other’s goals or character.)
But I have never seen fear described as a heroine’s reaction to anything except the villain, or her feelings for the hero. (Or more precisely, her anticipation of the problematic consequences of allowing her feelings for him to develop and be acted upon.)
Fear of the hero himself, or his actions, though? To my recollection, never happens in these genres.
Thanks for the information. I may have been over-influenced by the blurbs on paranormal romances.
And my take on “frightening” was that these are guys who any reasonable person with ordinary human abilities would find frightening, whether the heroine does or not.
From the “Perception Lab” at St Andrews:
Older women tend to prefer more feminine faces. Women in the infertile part of their fertility cycle tend to prefer more feminine faces. Women rating themselves as less attractive tend to prefer more feminine faces.
By the way, I don’t mean to imply that your guy friends in particular are in stable relationships because of these tendencies—I can think of many other reasons beyond the differing attractiveness of their faces, or their demeanour.
This deserves emphasis. Our instincts are not interested in our happiness. There is no reason to presume that those we are most attracted to will be the same as those who will be the most satisfying either in the long or short term. (Although it is certainly strong evidence to be considered as well as a direct contributor to that satisfaction.)
Are these mostly older guys or more precisely guys in LTRs with older women?
The increase over the last 4 decades in female personal income has made the “beta good provider” male strategy less successful.
Also, some (e.g., the Man Who Is Thursday) say that the increase in female promiscuity has had a similar effect because (the thinking goes) once a woman has had sex with 1 or 2 extremely exciting men, she is less likely to settle for a LTR with a much less exciting one (and as long as she does not demand any sort of commitment from them, a woman using a “modern” sexual strategy will probably have sex with 1 or 2 extremely exciting men).
Although I have a relatively small circle of friends, even I have a friend of a friend, now in her 60s, who only ever had sex with one man (the father of her kids to which she is still married) and she was quite beautiful, grew up in the proverbial big city (Manhattan) and has and had no notable social handicaps.
rhollerith_dot_com:
If she doesn’t demand any sort of commitment from them, she can have sex with many more extremely exciting men than that, if she’s at all attractive. Even less attractive women can similarly easily have lots of sex and non-serious relationships with men who are far above what they can realistically expect to get for serious commitment, even if they won’t be extremely exciting by absolute standards, so the same principle applies.
There was a discussion of this issue on LW recently. If anyone’s interested, these are my thoughts on the subject, and here I comment on some relevant research.
Most of my friends are around my own age, so both the men and the women are older than young.
I’m not sure what the typical age for starting the relationships was.
OK but note that my point is not that women get less choosy as they get older (though that is almost certainly true) but rather that it was easier for a man of average attractiveness to win the hand of a 30-year-old woman 30 or 40 years ago than it is today.
IIRC, a study a couple of years back that said that the male hero raped the female heroine in about half of a large sample of romance novels they looked at. Can’t remember how they chose their sample.
That is disrespectful. It’s asserting that the hero knows better than the heroine what’s good for her, and is entitled to act on her behalf. In my mind that’s a much, much more dangerous meme than outright acting maliciously.
The phrase ‘dangerous meme’ jumped out at me. I agree that it is disrespectful and I personally make an effort to prevent people that try from having any part of my life. I actually have to bite my tongue at times so that I don’t point out to young adults “You don’t have to take that. You can choose your own boundaries, with consideration of your options and likely outcomes.” (That put me in a particularly interesting situation when I was a teacher!)
But going from ‘undesirable behavior’ to ‘dangerous meme’, well, strikes me as dangerous. It seems like a move from discussing behavioral preferences to considering the very fact that the behavioural pattern appeals to some people or plays a role in their literature of choice is wrong.
I find the kinds of romance novels in question decidedly unappealing. Not just because they are aimed at women but because they are aimed at a different subset of women than those with whom I most empathise with. But I do know that there people who actually appreciate or are attracted to these same behaviours that I find obnoxious. Judging the very meme just because I personally don’t prefer the behaviour would seem presumptive.
I don’t think I intended the phrase as strongly as you interpreted it. However, “undesireable behavior” is too weak. As noted in another fork of this thread, I think that kind of paternalism is totally out of place between any two capable adults, but invididual cases are not what I’m talking about here. I’m talking about the notion that “members of group X know better than/are entitled to look after members of group Y.” The particular example given happens to be sexist, but it would be offensive for any two groups of normal grown-ups. Perpetuating that idea in popular culture, e.g. via popular fiction, has negative effects on members of both groups, even if they’re not directly exposed to the fiction itself.
That’s not a notion that was actually present in the context and nor is it one that you introduced yourself (until now). I say this not to be pedantic or to accuse you of any form of inconsistency but rather because there is an implicit assumption that I don’t share. The one that allows a leap from a fictional stories where a female protagonist interacts with an objectionably dominant hero to the general claim “members of group X know better than/are entitled to look after members of group Y”.
The particular example given happens to be of heroes who are sexist (or just excessively dominant) and female heroines with arguably terrible taste. If someone is offended that the heroine is attracted to the domineering hero or offended that a woman likes to read such books or empathises with the character then that is the problem of the person taking offence. Not the problem of the author, not the problem of the fictional protagonist and not the problem of literary porn fan.
While my position on what it makes sense to declare offensive may well be irreconcilably opposed to your own it may be interesting to note that my objection here is actually similar to the objection that we both would share to the heroine being overridden. It is not OK to prevent (or shame or otherwise apply moral sanction against) people having, reading or writing stories that appeal to their own emotions. It is not OK to condemn literature because the character doesn’t fit an ideal.
I don’t think “members of group know better than/are entitled to look after members of group ”. Actually, you probably do ‘know better than’ but it is the ‘are entitled to look after’ that is in play when we consider declaring things offensive.
Yes, this particular example is of individuals in just a few works of fiction. But the pattern does happen to exist in many more. And it does happen to be a pretty common idea in our culture. I’m not deriving that from the few examples given; I’m deriving that from living in the culture. I’m not looking out for readers-of-that-fiction, I’m looking out for me, who has to live with them, and with the people who learn values from them.
I’m also withdrawing from this conversation, because the amount of mental effort it’s taking to participate is exceeding the payoff significantly.
In all sincerity the my goal in this conversation was not primarily to maximise the immediate enjoyment of the participants, for all that I do not like draining the mental energies of either others or myself. The role of morality has been discussed elsewhere recently and within that role declarations of things that things should be considered offensive or shamed serves as a powerful power play. It even more powerful when the assumption that something is sexist, prejudiced or otherwise normatively wrong is passed off implicitly without question. It takes very little for such beliefs or injunctions to become unquestionable and once in place can be a significant inhibitor of personal freedom.
The task of minimising personal offence while at the same time acting to make a social move too expensive for it to be worth their while to try frequently is one that is quite difficult.
You’re leaving out the part where I said that the hero’s actions could be mistaken and/or tragic: i.e., in actual romance novels it’s quite often the case that the hero only thinks he knows better than the heroine, that she fights his actions every step of the way, and/or the actions lead to bad results.
I’m also a bit confused as to how you can say that either of the specific examples I gave qualify as “disrespectful”. If somebody throws themselves in front of a bullet for you, is that being disrespectful because they think they know what’s better for you?
I don’t see either of these as analogous to throwing himself in front of a bullet. In both cases he’s making a choice for her which she is capable of making herself—he’s taking care of her instead of letting her take care of herself. Even in the first case, there’s precedent in werewolf fiction for the lycanthrope to be voluntarily restrained to minimize damage. In the second case he’s also mislelading her so as to actually prevent her from making the choice to, say, protect him with her superior abilities.
It would be equally messed up if you switched the gender roles—saying “I’m going to do what I’ve decided is good for you instead of letting you make your own choices” always is, between two capable grownups. This just happens to be the direction which conforms to the popular trope about who is supposed to take care of whom.
This particular aspect may be unique to the romance genres my wife reads, but ISTM that the female leads in these novels are just as likely to make the same sort of imposingly-yet-self-sacrificing decisions for the male leads—i.e., both parties doing it in the same novel, prior to reaching a saner equilibrium. The contextual implication I draw from the few ones that I read myself, is that:
1) The signal “I will do what it takes to protect you, even if you disagree” is covertly found attractive by the heroine, even when her rational/overt reaction is that it’s stupid, unnecessary, condescending, chauvinistic etc. (This distinction is usually reflected in the heroine’s inner and outer dialogs),
2) While the signal is valued, the actual behavior and effects are not—by the time they reach “happily ever after”, the hero grudgingly agrees to limit his heroic impulses to merely vigorously arguing and protesting against courses of action he deems too dangerous, rather than outright sabotage or quasi-suicidal pre-emptions.
Hypothesis: once the hero has established the credibility of his signaled concern by actually putting himself at risk, the heroine can simply enjoy the now-credible verbal signals, without having the ongoing cost of excessive risk to him, or the annoyance of being treated somewhat condescendingly.