Does anyone know of any posts or resources that are targeted at rationalists that help with extracting yourself and recovering from an abusive relationship?
I’ve been a longtime student of LessWrong and related communities, studied physics at a top school, great at programming, very introspective etc. etc. All the regular boxes checked. Just a week ago I left a relationship that I realized has become extremely abusive (both emotionally and physically) and I’m having a lot of trouble understanding how I ever got in that situation. Having intensely strong signals from my rational side (RUN RUN) and even stronger signals from my emotional side (GO BACK, YOU HAVE TO HELP HER) is a very uncomfortable position for me to be in and something I’ve never experienced before.
I had a moment of clarity a week ago after my significant other threatened in a calm, honest tone to give me sleeping pills, cut off certain of my body parts, and then make me watch her put them down the garbage disposal. I opened up to my entire family about everything going on over a frantically intense few hours because I realized soon I would go back to hiding what was going on so that everyone would continue to love her. They’ve rallied around me and prevented me from going back over the last week and it’s been the most difficult week of my life. I knew I’d need to hedge against my future decision making because in that moment of clarity I saw the abuse victim cycle I was in. I’ve intensely wanted to go back at times over the last week and I know I would have if not for people preventing and constantly reminding me not to.
On some level it’s fascinating. I’ve never been this irrational in my life. I can analyze the situation and output an answer that I know is correct intellectually… but every feeling I have is telling me the opposite, and they’re the strongest feelings I’ve ever had. It’s very uncomfortable and leaves me feeling like things would be easier if I just went back.
That was a bit long. I’ll stop there and write more if there is any interest.
Does anyone know of any posts or resources that are targeted at rationalists that help with extracting yourself and recovering from an abusive relationship?
I hope you don’t wait with getting help until you find something targeted specifically for rationalists. Get all the help you can right now. A little bullshit here and there may annoy you, but non-rationalists can also have a lot of domain-specific knowledge.
GO BACK, YOU HAVE TO HELP HER
If there are any methods—rational or not—to erase this feeling from your mind, do it a.s.a.p. That is priority #1. Stop your brain from ruining your life.
Congratulations on telling your family. Actually, telling anyone. Saying certain things aloud allows one to think about them more clearly.
Thanks for this. I am pursuing help. I have scheduled appointments with two therapists (first office visit today) and I’m looking for a third to try to find one that I can work well with.
Erasing the dangerous thoughts is the hardest part and what I wish I had better methods for. I’m in general the type of person that likes to help others, and feel more empathy for her than any other person. Part of the reason I stayed so long is that I viewed the way she was treating me as an illness and thought to myself, what would I do if she had cancer? I’d stick around and be supportive and try to get her the help she needs. That’s what I should do here. That analogy breaks when you start to not feel safe though, something that took me too long to realize.
Erasing the dangerous thoughts is the hardest part and what I wish I had better methods for.
Finally an opportunity to use my Dark Arts for the benefit of humanity. Here it goes:
You see the abusive mentality of your girlfriend as an illness, and your support as a cure. Your urge to stay is rationalized as a hypothesis that being there, exposing yourself to the abuse, somehow cures the illness. Now let’s ignore the fact that it is you and your girlfriend for a moment, and ask a general question: Do you really believe, as a general rule, that the best way to cure abusive people is to give them a supply of victims? Is there any psychological pubblication suggesting that this could be true? If you were a psychologist, would you recommend this as a therapy? Because as far as I know, it is exactly the opposite: enabling harmful behavior, protecting people from natural consequences of their actions, makes it more difficult to heal. That means, your staying in the relationship actually makes your girlfriend’s illness worse.
Returning to your specific case, is it your personal experience that the longer you are with your girlfriend, the less abusive she gets? (Something like: at the beginning, she was threatening to cause you serious bodily harm every day, now she barely does it once in a month.) Do you have any data to support the hypothesis that your “healing” actually works? Or is it all just imagination and wishful thinking?
Does your girlfriend take a therapy? If you believe she is ill, she definitely should. Using your analogy, if she had cancer, would you let her stay home avoiding the doctors and try to heal her using your power of love? What would be your opinion about someone who did exactly that? Because that’s what you are doing right now.
If this wasn’t a situation between you and your girlfriend, but e.g. your (male) friend you deeply care about and his abusive girlfriend, would you recommend your friend to stay in the relationship? Imagine that the friend is not dating her yet; he just noticed her a he likes her, but you already know that she is an abusive person. Would you recommend your friend to start dating her, knowing that this will happen afterwards, or would you try to stop him?
Imagine a parallel reality where you live with a girlfriend who is not abusive. Would you break up with her only to be able to start dating an abusive girl and have a tiny chance to heal her by your suffering… because doing that would feel more altruistic, so you are morally required to choose that instead of happiness with a non-abusive girl? I am not just talking hypothetically here; the non-abusive girlfriend actually exists in your future, and it is your choice whether you open yourself for the relationship with her, or if you dump her in favor of the abusive girl you have now.
Imagine that you stay with your girlfriend and she remains exactly the same, or keeps getting worse. (Which is quite likely: the best predictor of a person’s behavior is their past behavior.) Imagine yourself ten years later, twenty years later, having dealt with the abuse all the time. Ask your 50-years old future you, who is probably too emotionaly broken to rescue themselves, if they could use a time machine and send a message back to the past, to your current self, what would that message say?
Do you want to have children one day? If yes, do you want your children to have an abusive mother? Do you want to see them abused in the same way you are, or worse? Because they will be more helpless than you are. And unlike you, they didn’t choose this voluntarily. Please realize that if that happens, it may become impossible to do help those children in any way, because in the case of divorce, the judge will most likely let the mother keep the children, regardless of her personality. (Read some stories in “men’s rights” debates to get an idea about how horribly family court can work in real life.)
Do you believe that decent human beings should help each other and support each other, as much as possible, especially when they are in a relationship? How does your girlfriend fulfill these criteria? Or do you perhaps believe that moral duties apply only on a few selected people (such as you) and don’t apply to other people (such as your girlfriend)? That would mean you don’t even consider her a member of the same “moral species”.
If helping other people is a high priority in your life, is staying with your current girlfriend really generating maximum good? Imagine that you would find another girlfriend, who is not abusive, who would make you happy, which would probably make you more productive. Then you could together sometimes volunteer in a kitchen for poor people, or contribute some money to effective altruist causes. Wouldn’t that generate more good?
For best outcome, please read this list repeatedly, focusing on the parts than resonated with you.
Thank you for this, exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.
Believe it or not, I’ve had almost every one of these thoughts myself over the last year and a half.
Do you really believe, as a general rule, that the best way to cure abusive people is to give them a supply of victims
Nope. Don’t believe it at all.
Do you have any data to support the hypothesis that your “healing” actually works?
I have data to the contrary. I’ve spent a year and a half trying and the abuse has gotten progressively worse.
Does your girlfriend take a therapy?
No. She doesn’t acknowledge that she has a problem. When I try to talk to her about getting help she says that her problems are because of me and if I would just do what she says (a long an unreasonable and constantly shifting list) she would get better. She also believes I deserve what she does because I “push her over the edge.”
would you recommend your friend to stay in the relationship?
Absolutely not
Imagine a parallel reality where you live with a girlfriend who is not abusive...
I do this all the time. I of course would not leave her to sacrifice myself for an abusive stranger.
Ask your 50-years old future you, who is probably too emotionaly broken to rescue themselves, if they could use a time machine and send a message back to the past, to your current self, what would that message say?
It would tell me to leave ASAP and never look back. It would be sent as close to the beginning of the relationship as the time machine allowed.
Do you want to have children one day? If yes, do you want your children to have an abusive mother?
Yes and no.
Do you believe that decent human beings should help each other and support each other, as much as possible, especially when they are in a relationship? How does your girlfriend fulfill these criteria.
I believe moral duties apply to everyone and she has certainly failed at fulfilling hers. I don’t think it’s her fault, however you want to parse that sentence, but the consequences are real for me and should be for her too.
If helping other people is a high priority in your life, is staying with your current girlfriend really generating maximum good?
It wouldn’t at all. I do care about helping others and in my normal state I’m an extremely high functioning and successful person. I’ve basically become a drone that works and worries about her and that’s about it. I miss my former self and getting that back is one of the things that excites me most.
Thanks for the long response. The most difficult part of all this is feeling a bit insane myself. My rational mind can output the right answers, but I haven’t been following them. Introspection and internal consistency (and a willingness to update) has always been something I’m naturally good at and valued greatly. I’m not the same person I was before this started and that’s terrifying. I feel like I’m on the road to recovery though. Your comments are very helpful.
Heh. From a certain point of view, she really doesn’t. If she cuts you up, that would be your problem.
she says that her problems are because of me and if I would just do what she says (a long an unreasonable and constantly shifting list) she would get better. She also believes I deserve what she does because I “push her over the edge.”
I’ve basically become a drone that works and worries about her and that’s about it.
A friend of a friend was dating a person who would fit this description exactly, and… well, it would be a long story. Towards the end the person demanded that they spend the whole day together, every day, which made them both unable to keep a job, so they just kept borrowing as much money as was possible from anyone. The victim was completely brainwashed, and despite trying to do everything, was beaten regularly, more and more severely. At the end, the victim’s family kidnapped the victim and kept them in another country for a few months, not allowing them to use phone or internet. This finally allowed the victim to “awaken”.
Meanwhile the abuser was evicted from the appartment they haven’t paid rent for. Instead of finding a job, the abuser spent all their time trying to contact the victim, manipulating a wide social network quite successfully; but the family did a good job at hiding the victim until their “awakening”, at which point the victim didn’t want to see the abuser anymore. I don’t have detailed information about what happened afterwards; I believe the family didn’t call the police, but threatened to do so if the abuser tries to approach the victim anymore. (Institutions scare the abuser like shit.) The abuser is now homeless, works for food, and keeps a blog about how this all was a conspiracy of unfavorable parents against the True Love, with prayers to God to make the victim return to them. Note: the abuser is an atheist, but the victim is strongly religious; everything the abuser does is a calculated manipulation. Hopefully, as a homeless person, their ability to charm and seduce people will be diminished. The victim is back, living a normal life again, as far as I know. This happened about five years ago.
So, congratulations on quitting soon enough! You were not harmed; you didn’t lose your job and savings.
I miss my former self and getting that back is one of the things that excites me most.
For the victim in my story, it took less than one year. I mean, about a month to “awaken”, a few more months to regain emotional balance and feel the certainty that even if they would meet the abuser again they wouldn’t succumb to their manipulation, and the rest of the year to stop bitching about the abuser and focus on living their normal life again.
At this moment I would recommend trying to remember what you enjoyed doing before this all started, and perhaps contacting your old friends and doing it again.
Also, cut the contact. She will probably find many different reasons to talk to you; may blackmail you to talking. For example, if you forgot some of your property at her place, she may insist on meeting you one-on-one and having a conversation before she returns it to you. Do not, ever, meet her in an isolated place. She would probably try to brainwash you again, but if that fails, she might try some insane shit as a “punishment”—cut you with a knife, start screaming that you raped her, or whatever crazy idea may come to her mind.
If you felt empathy for her, it would be the feeling of threatening to hurt you. You are feeling sympathy, guilt or something else. There is a difference.
If there are any methods—rational or not—to erase this feeling from your mind, do it a.s.a.p. That is priority #1. Stop your brain from ruining your life.
I disagree with the one-sidedness of this advice—esp. without knowing all that much about the situation.
I have also been in a not really alike but also difficult situation and there are many layers. See also this. It might be that he understands only just too well that it was a mutual cycle. It might also be a cry for help on her side. Not that the method is acceptable but a signal it is. And I imagine a smart person can help her. Without going back. Someone else might help. Whatever help is the right kind here.
I didn’t give any advice. I urged for understanding that the situation might be more complex and layered than implied by the simplicity of the advice IN ALL CAPS. I hedged with lots of ‘might’ and ‘if’. And I didn’t intend to imply that the relationship should be repaired (at least not the romantic one; one cpuld hope to get along well though). In my worldview everyone is the hero of their own story to use that old picture and I work from the assumption that no side meant evil. It is difficult and may in many cases be impossible to untangle the vicious circle that developed. but even if one doesn’t interact personally after the break-up doesn’t mean that one can not or may not feel empathy and help. It could be possible to help indirectly in many ways like telling mutual friends or acquaintances to help. Offer to contact help lines or even offer material expenses (quite relevant in cases of break-ups). If these are refused or accusations are made due to it for me personally the human possible limit is reached. Also I don’t think that there is a moral responsibility to help that much at all. Everyone has to draw ones individual line somewhere. Maybe I’m more altruistic than average.
And yes. Obviously I’d also propose to listen to a battered woman when she proposes to help her ex. If she understands the dynamics of his anger and maybe her part in the mutual circle. I don’t propose that she go back to him though.
This feeds directly into what the OP has just broken free from: a cycle of continuously re-convincing himself that this relationship might not be what it appears on the surface and that he still has a responsibility to the other party.
One-sided advice is exactly what the brain needs to stop it from falling back to the endless well of excuses and rationalizations.
Maybe. But if you don’t know more than I do from what what posted here your can’t say with the strength you did in your post (though agree that by now some more details have become apparent).
I have been in a probably much less but still abusive relationship and if your are smart, reflective and it’s not too abusive (though I guess that the level of abuse changes over time) you can break up without loosing everything of the relationship. After all both sides have a part in it and by denying worth one looses or misrepresents also ones own part in it. My view of her and us has changed by our breakup but I salvaged positive emotion for her, esp. the things we did right and what was good about her—without feeling compelled to help her overly. A point he is over too apparently now (yes, it does take time).
One-sided advice is exactly what the brain needs to stop it from falling back to the endless well of excuses and rationalizations.
Could you back that up with non-anecdotal evidence please.
Speaking as somebody who could easily be on the other side of that equation, except for a very rigorous moral system, including a rule to stay the hell away from people who scream “Victim!” into my brain, I can tell you exactly how you got into that situation.
She became whatever you needed her to be, in order for you to be the target she wanted you to be. (I can manipulate anybody into doing anything. I just have to become the person they would do that thing for—and my self is flexible in ways most people couldn’t imagine.)
In particular, she became somebody who needed help, because you would try to help her.
It’s important to realize—she doesn’t need help. She never needed help. The person you want to help doesn’t exist, and never did. That person was a mask that the person who threatened you wore to make you vulnerable.
Allow yourself to mourn the person you thought she was. But do not imagine that that person was ever her.
Speaking as somebody who could easily be on the other side of that equation, except for a very rigorous moral system, including a rule to stay the hell away from people who scream “Victim!” into my brain, I can tell you exactly how you got into that situation.
I’ve been thinking about your post for some time. It’s sounds compelling and I can’t quite put my finger on why. I want to rule out that it’s just cause I like the things you post and your style. Can you elaborate on your victim rule please?
Perhaps you don’t want to be the target an accusation of victimisation by someone who misattributes that status to people?
When I say they scream “Victim!”, it’s in something the way a rabbit’s movements yell in a wolf’s brain. It’s hard to describe. It draws out predatory elements.
Please write more about every part of your experience. As we know from a related field; “people who are sleep deprived don’t know how sleep deprived they are”. People in an abusive relationship don’t know they are in an abusive relationship (until the moment of clarity) any writing about noticing things will help people potentially get away from bad relationships.
Edit: have some karma to help you recover and/also reap successful feeling from your present adventure
Thanks for the encouragement, I do intend to write more.
It’s only been a week since I removed myself from the situation, and I’m already starting to feel shocked at how much worse it was than I realized at the time. Seeing the faces and hearing the comments of friends and family when I tell them stories makes a world of difference. Not one person has told me I’m making a bad decision.
If you’d asked me 3 years ago if I could ever be in a situation like this I would have assigned it very very low probability. Low probability events happen, but I think what is more likely is that it’s a lot easier than I thought to become normalized to an increasingly toxic environment over time.
I think the best advice I could give so far is, if you think you’re in an abusive relationship, talk to people about it. On some level I knew something was very wrong, but I began lying to family and friends about what was going on. I did this both to protect her, and to protect our future relationships as a couple. I was always optimistic about getting to a better place, and I didn’t want people to hate her once we were there. I told my mother one small story once (far from the worst thing that had happened, and one story among many) and she called me in tears several weeks later saying she was worried I’d hate her for it but she had to tell me that she didn’t think the wedding was a good idea (we were engaged).
I’m going to write a lot over the coming weeks and will make a post here if I think I uncover any worthwhile advice.
I think your feelings will change over time. Changing how you think about something may not change how you feel now, but it may lead to changes in how you feel in the future. It kind of sucks right now, but I don’t think this conflict between your feelings and thoughts is permanent. It’s a temporary thing you are going through.
Here are some articles I read that helped me understand abusive relationships a little better.
Also, when a friend of mine was in a similar situation, he said that reading a book about Borderline Personality Disorder was helpful. His girlfriend had that. Your situation may be different.
I also think it may help to read books to help learn about and remember what healthy relationships look like. John Gottman’s books are my favourite for that. Gottman has studied thousands of real life couples in his lab and has a good idea of what works and what doesn’t.
Here’s one that I liked, though if another of his books jibes with you more, then you might want to get that one:
And, Gottman has studied abusive relationships, and attempted to figure out why people abuse, and what patterns they have. He wrote a book about it, focusing on men abusing women, but I think it would be useful in the reverse situation.
That first link is very interesting—what I’m taking away from it is that there is no shortcut. Your gut isn’t necessarily on your side. Neither is your partner. The ideology which says it’s on your side may not be quite as good as you think it is. The odds (if we can go with the article and its comments) that your friends are on your side are relatively good, but it’s still a gamble.
You have to keep drilling down and hope that you hit reality.
(I can’t tell from your post whether you are male or female, but it doesn’t matter. The book is equally good for either.)
In essence, this book may help you learn how to stop being a victim, how to set your own limits, and how to get your own needs met. It also may inoculate you against getting into future relationships like this.
As someone who has been through a lot of abuse, beware. Your future self, not your current self, feels the fallout from the abuse more so than your current self. You have adapted to your abusive situation, when it goes away, you will be maladapted. Get out. Just take it on blind faith that you should get out if you have to. You don’t want to end up like me. In my case I was indeed subjected to violence like what might happen to you. To this day, I regret not retaliating, killing my abuser or torturing them back to save myself from even a portion of it. And I’m well aware that’s very much not normal. Now, even though I have the opportunity, I don’t want to and won’t, but if I could go back in time, well...the point is that you should get out, and that’s not at all going to be the hard point from there.
Does anyone know of any posts or resources that are targeted at rationalists that help with extracting yourself and recovering from an abusive relationship?
I’ve been a longtime student of LessWrong and related communities, studied physics at a top school, great at programming, very introspective etc. etc. All the regular boxes checked. Just a week ago I left a relationship that I realized has become extremely abusive (both emotionally and physically) and I’m having a lot of trouble understanding how I ever got in that situation. Having intensely strong signals from my rational side (RUN RUN) and even stronger signals from my emotional side (GO BACK, YOU HAVE TO HELP HER) is a very uncomfortable position for me to be in and something I’ve never experienced before.
I had a moment of clarity a week ago after my significant other threatened in a calm, honest tone to give me sleeping pills, cut off certain of my body parts, and then make me watch her put them down the garbage disposal. I opened up to my entire family about everything going on over a frantically intense few hours because I realized soon I would go back to hiding what was going on so that everyone would continue to love her. They’ve rallied around me and prevented me from going back over the last week and it’s been the most difficult week of my life. I knew I’d need to hedge against my future decision making because in that moment of clarity I saw the abuse victim cycle I was in. I’ve intensely wanted to go back at times over the last week and I know I would have if not for people preventing and constantly reminding me not to.
On some level it’s fascinating. I’ve never been this irrational in my life. I can analyze the situation and output an answer that I know is correct intellectually… but every feeling I have is telling me the opposite, and they’re the strongest feelings I’ve ever had. It’s very uncomfortable and leaves me feeling like things would be easier if I just went back.
That was a bit long. I’ll stop there and write more if there is any interest.
I hope you don’t wait with getting help until you find something targeted specifically for rationalists. Get all the help you can right now. A little bullshit here and there may annoy you, but non-rationalists can also have a lot of domain-specific knowledge.
If there are any methods—rational or not—to erase this feeling from your mind, do it a.s.a.p. That is priority #1. Stop your brain from ruining your life.
Congratulations on telling your family. Actually, telling anyone. Saying certain things aloud allows one to think about them more clearly.
Thanks for this. I am pursuing help. I have scheduled appointments with two therapists (first office visit today) and I’m looking for a third to try to find one that I can work well with.
Erasing the dangerous thoughts is the hardest part and what I wish I had better methods for. I’m in general the type of person that likes to help others, and feel more empathy for her than any other person. Part of the reason I stayed so long is that I viewed the way she was treating me as an illness and thought to myself, what would I do if she had cancer? I’d stick around and be supportive and try to get her the help she needs. That’s what I should do here. That analogy breaks when you start to not feel safe though, something that took me too long to realize.
Finally an opportunity to use my Dark Arts for the benefit of humanity. Here it goes:
You see the abusive mentality of your girlfriend as an illness, and your support as a cure. Your urge to stay is rationalized as a hypothesis that being there, exposing yourself to the abuse, somehow cures the illness. Now let’s ignore the fact that it is you and your girlfriend for a moment, and ask a general question: Do you really believe, as a general rule, that the best way to cure abusive people is to give them a supply of victims? Is there any psychological pubblication suggesting that this could be true? If you were a psychologist, would you recommend this as a therapy? Because as far as I know, it is exactly the opposite: enabling harmful behavior, protecting people from natural consequences of their actions, makes it more difficult to heal. That means, your staying in the relationship actually makes your girlfriend’s illness worse.
Returning to your specific case, is it your personal experience that the longer you are with your girlfriend, the less abusive she gets? (Something like: at the beginning, she was threatening to cause you serious bodily harm every day, now she barely does it once in a month.) Do you have any data to support the hypothesis that your “healing” actually works? Or is it all just imagination and wishful thinking?
Does your girlfriend take a therapy? If you believe she is ill, she definitely should. Using your analogy, if she had cancer, would you let her stay home avoiding the doctors and try to heal her using your power of love? What would be your opinion about someone who did exactly that? Because that’s what you are doing right now.
If this wasn’t a situation between you and your girlfriend, but e.g. your (male) friend you deeply care about and his abusive girlfriend, would you recommend your friend to stay in the relationship? Imagine that the friend is not dating her yet; he just noticed her a he likes her, but you already know that she is an abusive person. Would you recommend your friend to start dating her, knowing that this will happen afterwards, or would you try to stop him?
Imagine a parallel reality where you live with a girlfriend who is not abusive. Would you break up with her only to be able to start dating an abusive girl and have a tiny chance to heal her by your suffering… because doing that would feel more altruistic, so you are morally required to choose that instead of happiness with a non-abusive girl? I am not just talking hypothetically here; the non-abusive girlfriend actually exists in your future, and it is your choice whether you open yourself for the relationship with her, or if you dump her in favor of the abusive girl you have now.
Imagine that you stay with your girlfriend and she remains exactly the same, or keeps getting worse. (Which is quite likely: the best predictor of a person’s behavior is their past behavior.) Imagine yourself ten years later, twenty years later, having dealt with the abuse all the time. Ask your 50-years old future you, who is probably too emotionaly broken to rescue themselves, if they could use a time machine and send a message back to the past, to your current self, what would that message say?
Do you want to have children one day? If yes, do you want your children to have an abusive mother? Do you want to see them abused in the same way you are, or worse? Because they will be more helpless than you are. And unlike you, they didn’t choose this voluntarily. Please realize that if that happens, it may become impossible to do help those children in any way, because in the case of divorce, the judge will most likely let the mother keep the children, regardless of her personality. (Read some stories in “men’s rights” debates to get an idea about how horribly family court can work in real life.)
Do you believe that decent human beings should help each other and support each other, as much as possible, especially when they are in a relationship? How does your girlfriend fulfill these criteria? Or do you perhaps believe that moral duties apply only on a few selected people (such as you) and don’t apply to other people (such as your girlfriend)? That would mean you don’t even consider her a member of the same “moral species”.
If helping other people is a high priority in your life, is staying with your current girlfriend really generating maximum good? Imagine that you would find another girlfriend, who is not abusive, who would make you happy, which would probably make you more productive. Then you could together sometimes volunteer in a kitchen for poor people, or contribute some money to effective altruist causes. Wouldn’t that generate more good?
For best outcome, please read this list repeatedly, focusing on the parts than resonated with you.
Thank you for this, exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.
Believe it or not, I’ve had almost every one of these thoughts myself over the last year and a half.
Nope. Don’t believe it at all.
I have data to the contrary. I’ve spent a year and a half trying and the abuse has gotten progressively worse.
No. She doesn’t acknowledge that she has a problem. When I try to talk to her about getting help she says that her problems are because of me and if I would just do what she says (a long an unreasonable and constantly shifting list) she would get better. She also believes I deserve what she does because I “push her over the edge.”
Absolutely not
I do this all the time. I of course would not leave her to sacrifice myself for an abusive stranger.
It would tell me to leave ASAP and never look back. It would be sent as close to the beginning of the relationship as the time machine allowed.
Yes and no.
I believe moral duties apply to everyone and she has certainly failed at fulfilling hers. I don’t think it’s her fault, however you want to parse that sentence, but the consequences are real for me and should be for her too.
It wouldn’t at all. I do care about helping others and in my normal state I’m an extremely high functioning and successful person. I’ve basically become a drone that works and worries about her and that’s about it. I miss my former self and getting that back is one of the things that excites me most.
Thanks for the long response. The most difficult part of all this is feeling a bit insane myself. My rational mind can output the right answers, but I haven’t been following them. Introspection and internal consistency (and a willingness to update) has always been something I’m naturally good at and valued greatly. I’m not the same person I was before this started and that’s terrifying. I feel like I’m on the road to recovery though. Your comments are very helpful.
Heh. From a certain point of view, she really doesn’t. If she cuts you up, that would be your problem.
A friend of a friend was dating a person who would fit this description exactly, and… well, it would be a long story. Towards the end the person demanded that they spend the whole day together, every day, which made them both unable to keep a job, so they just kept borrowing as much money as was possible from anyone. The victim was completely brainwashed, and despite trying to do everything, was beaten regularly, more and more severely. At the end, the victim’s family kidnapped the victim and kept them in another country for a few months, not allowing them to use phone or internet. This finally allowed the victim to “awaken”.
Meanwhile the abuser was evicted from the appartment they haven’t paid rent for. Instead of finding a job, the abuser spent all their time trying to contact the victim, manipulating a wide social network quite successfully; but the family did a good job at hiding the victim until their “awakening”, at which point the victim didn’t want to see the abuser anymore. I don’t have detailed information about what happened afterwards; I believe the family didn’t call the police, but threatened to do so if the abuser tries to approach the victim anymore. (Institutions scare the abuser like shit.) The abuser is now homeless, works for food, and keeps a blog about how this all was a conspiracy of unfavorable parents against the True Love, with prayers to God to make the victim return to them. Note: the abuser is an atheist, but the victim is strongly religious; everything the abuser does is a calculated manipulation. Hopefully, as a homeless person, their ability to charm and seduce people will be diminished. The victim is back, living a normal life again, as far as I know. This happened about five years ago.
So, congratulations on quitting soon enough! You were not harmed; you didn’t lose your job and savings.
For the victim in my story, it took less than one year. I mean, about a month to “awaken”, a few more months to regain emotional balance and feel the certainty that even if they would meet the abuser again they wouldn’t succumb to their manipulation, and the rest of the year to stop bitching about the abuser and focus on living their normal life again.
At this moment I would recommend trying to remember what you enjoyed doing before this all started, and perhaps contacting your old friends and doing it again.
Also, cut the contact. She will probably find many different reasons to talk to you; may blackmail you to talking. For example, if you forgot some of your property at her place, she may insist on meeting you one-on-one and having a conversation before she returns it to you. Do not, ever, meet her in an isolated place. She would probably try to brainwash you again, but if that fails, she might try some insane shit as a “punishment”—cut you with a knife, start screaming that you raped her, or whatever crazy idea may come to her mind.
Glad I could help.
If you felt empathy for her, it would be the feeling of threatening to hurt you. You are feeling sympathy, guilt or something else. There is a difference.
I disagree with the one-sidedness of this advice—esp. without knowing all that much about the situation.
I have also been in a not really alike but also difficult situation and there are many layers. See also this. It might be that he understands only just too well that it was a mutual cycle. It might also be a cry for help on her side. Not that the method is acceptable but a signal it is. And I imagine a smart person can help her. Without going back. Someone else might help. Whatever help is the right kind here.
I’m still stuck in the Dark Arts mode and I’m aware of it, but I will ask you anyway:
Would you also give the same relationship advice to a battered woman?
I didn’t give any advice. I urged for understanding that the situation might be more complex and layered than implied by the simplicity of the advice IN ALL CAPS. I hedged with lots of ‘might’ and ‘if’. And I didn’t intend to imply that the relationship should be repaired (at least not the romantic one; one cpuld hope to get along well though). In my worldview everyone is the hero of their own story to use that old picture and I work from the assumption that no side meant evil. It is difficult and may in many cases be impossible to untangle the vicious circle that developed. but even if one doesn’t interact personally after the break-up doesn’t mean that one can not or may not feel empathy and help. It could be possible to help indirectly in many ways like telling mutual friends or acquaintances to help. Offer to contact help lines or even offer material expenses (quite relevant in cases of break-ups). If these are refused or accusations are made due to it for me personally the human possible limit is reached. Also I don’t think that there is a moral responsibility to help that much at all. Everyone has to draw ones individual line somewhere. Maybe I’m more altruistic than average.
And yes. Obviously I’d also propose to listen to a battered woman when she proposes to help her ex. If she understands the dynamics of his anger and maybe her part in the mutual circle. I don’t propose that she go back to him though.
This feeds directly into what the OP has just broken free from: a cycle of continuously re-convincing himself that this relationship might not be what it appears on the surface and that he still has a responsibility to the other party.
One-sided advice is exactly what the brain needs to stop it from falling back to the endless well of excuses and rationalizations.
Maybe. But if you don’t know more than I do from what what posted here your can’t say with the strength you did in your post (though agree that by now some more details have become apparent).
I have been in a probably much less but still abusive relationship and if your are smart, reflective and it’s not too abusive (though I guess that the level of abuse changes over time) you can break up without loosing everything of the relationship. After all both sides have a part in it and by denying worth one looses or misrepresents also ones own part in it. My view of her and us has changed by our breakup but I salvaged positive emotion for her, esp. the things we did right and what was good about her—without feeling compelled to help her overly. A point he is over too apparently now (yes, it does take time).
Could you back that up with non-anecdotal evidence please.
Speaking as somebody who could easily be on the other side of that equation, except for a very rigorous moral system, including a rule to stay the hell away from people who scream “Victim!” into my brain, I can tell you exactly how you got into that situation.
She became whatever you needed her to be, in order for you to be the target she wanted you to be. (I can manipulate anybody into doing anything. I just have to become the person they would do that thing for—and my self is flexible in ways most people couldn’t imagine.)
In particular, she became somebody who needed help, because you would try to help her.
It’s important to realize—she doesn’t need help. She never needed help. The person you want to help doesn’t exist, and never did. That person was a mask that the person who threatened you wore to make you vulnerable.
Allow yourself to mourn the person you thought she was. But do not imagine that that person was ever her.
I’ve been thinking about your post for some time. It’s sounds compelling and I can’t quite put my finger on why. I want to rule out that it’s just cause I like the things you post and your style. Can you elaborate on your victim rule please?
Perhaps you don’t want to be the target an accusation of victimisation by someone who misattributes that status to people?
When I say they scream “Victim!”, it’s in something the way a rabbit’s movements yell in a wolf’s brain. It’s hard to describe. It draws out predatory elements.
Thank you for the insight.
To all those who’ve read some HPMoR, I find it interesting that that’s basically how Quirrel describes his and Harry’s… differences from most people.
Are you a psychopath?
Are you a municipal file clerk?
I define myself by what I do, rather than what I am capable of doing—both good or ill—so no.
Please write more about every part of your experience. As we know from a related field; “people who are sleep deprived don’t know how sleep deprived they are”. People in an abusive relationship don’t know they are in an abusive relationship (until the moment of clarity) any writing about noticing things will help people potentially get away from bad relationships.
Edit: have some karma to help you recover and/also reap successful feeling from your present adventure
Thanks for the encouragement, I do intend to write more.
It’s only been a week since I removed myself from the situation, and I’m already starting to feel shocked at how much worse it was than I realized at the time. Seeing the faces and hearing the comments of friends and family when I tell them stories makes a world of difference. Not one person has told me I’m making a bad decision.
If you’d asked me 3 years ago if I could ever be in a situation like this I would have assigned it very very low probability. Low probability events happen, but I think what is more likely is that it’s a lot easier than I thought to become normalized to an increasingly toxic environment over time.
I think the best advice I could give so far is, if you think you’re in an abusive relationship, talk to people about it. On some level I knew something was very wrong, but I began lying to family and friends about what was going on. I did this both to protect her, and to protect our future relationships as a couple. I was always optimistic about getting to a better place, and I didn’t want people to hate her once we were there. I told my mother one small story once (far from the worst thing that had happened, and one story among many) and she called me in tears several weeks later saying she was worried I’d hate her for it but she had to tell me that she didn’t think the wedding was a good idea (we were engaged).
I’m going to write a lot over the coming weeks and will make a post here if I think I uncover any worthwhile advice.
There’s this, both for dealing with the aftermath of the break-up, as well as the break-up itself.
Thank you very much this is helpful.
beat me to it!
I think your feelings will change over time. Changing how you think about something may not change how you feel now, but it may lead to changes in how you feel in the future. It kind of sucks right now, but I don’t think this conflict between your feelings and thoughts is permanent. It’s a temporary thing you are going through.
Here are some articles I read that helped me understand abusive relationships a little better.
“I Can Handle It”: On Relationship Violence, Independence, and Capability http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/08/i-can-handle-it-on-relationship-violence-independence-and-capability/
It’s Not Your Relationship That’s Abusive, It’s Your Partner – Here’s Why That Distinction Matters http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/its-not-your-relationship-thats-abusive-its-your-partner-heres-why-that-distinction-matters/
Also, when a friend of mine was in a similar situation, he said that reading a book about Borderline Personality Disorder was helpful. His girlfriend had that. Your situation may be different.
I also think it may help to read books to help learn about and remember what healthy relationships look like. John Gottman’s books are my favourite for that. Gottman has studied thousands of real life couples in his lab and has a good idea of what works and what doesn’t.
Here’s one that I liked, though if another of his books jibes with you more, then you might want to get that one:
Why Marriages Succeed and Fail by John Gottman http://www.amazon.com/Why-Marriages-Succeed-Fail-Yours/dp/0684802414/
And, Gottman has studied abusive relationships, and attempted to figure out why people abuse, and what patterns they have. He wrote a book about it, focusing on men abusing women, but I think it would be useful in the reverse situation.
When Men Batter Women by John Gottman and Neil Jacobson https://www.gottman.com/shop/when-men-batter-women/
That first link is very interesting—what I’m taking away from it is that there is no shortcut. Your gut isn’t necessarily on your side. Neither is your partner. The ideology which says it’s on your side may not be quite as good as you think it is. The odds (if we can go with the article and its comments) that your friends are on your side are relatively good, but it’s still a gamble.
You have to keep drilling down and hope that you hit reality.
Buy and read this book right now: “No More Mr. Nice Guy” by Robert Glover
(I can’t tell from your post whether you are male or female, but it doesn’t matter. The book is equally good for either.)
In essence, this book may help you learn how to stop being a victim, how to set your own limits, and how to get your own needs met. It also may inoculate you against getting into future relationships like this.
As someone who has been through a lot of abuse, beware. Your future self, not your current self, feels the fallout from the abuse more so than your current self. You have adapted to your abusive situation, when it goes away, you will be maladapted. Get out. Just take it on blind faith that you should get out if you have to. You don’t want to end up like me. In my case I was indeed subjected to violence like what might happen to you. To this day, I regret not retaliating, killing my abuser or torturing them back to save myself from even a portion of it. And I’m well aware that’s very much not normal. Now, even though I have the opportunity, I don’t want to and won’t, but if I could go back in time, well...the point is that you should get out, and that’s not at all going to be the hard point from there.
If someone threatens you and/or abuses you, call the police. That stuff is illegal. Do so as soon as you safely can.