No, but social power + respect can be useful for achieving your goals (especially if one of your goals is social power and respect, which seem to be true for a lot of people).
No, but social power + respect can be useful for achieving your goals (especially if one of your goals is social power and respect, which seem to be true for a lot of people).
Yes, but on lesswrong, at least, we’ve been exposed to enough social psychology to understand why that’s a dangerous intrinsic goal to have. It’s certainly seductive, but aren’t there better things to do with increased agency than to seek to dominate other potential agents?
Last I checked (which was admittedly a while ago), there are a decent number of Less Wrong users who act obnoxiously high status in real life (including some who are quite prominent). I’d love to have the egalitarian norms you describe, but I think first we’d have to convince them to stop.
This may not be trivial. I’ve noticed that my high status behaviors often seem pretty instinctual, and I’ve also noticed that I have a fair amount of mental resistance to giving up status even if I’d like to in theory (ex.: apologizing).
...there are a decent number of Less Wrong users who act obnoxiously high status in real life (including some who are quite prominent). I’d love to have the egalitarian norms you describe, but I think first we’d have to convince them to stop.
The way you worded this makes it sound as if there are a few people ruining it for everyone. If this is actually the case, then the solution is, when these people begin acting obnoxiously high status, say “You’re being obnoxious. Stop.” Bystander effect, etc. If you try this and it doesn’t work, let me know so I can update.
Last I checked (which was admittedly a while ago), there are a decent number of Less Wrong users who act obnoxiously high status in real life (including some who are quite prominent).
Without identifying the people involved, can you describe in more concrete terms the behaviours you are talking about?
You are asking John to do something that is clearly unwise for him to do in a form typically used with the connotation that if the person does not comply it is because they can not. This is disingenuous.
If John wants a problem to stop, it would be nice to first identify more clearly the source of the problem. Otherwise he’s just doing the LW analogue of vaguebooking.
It’s not obvious to me that “the source of the problem” and “the people most saliently exhibiting the symptoms” are the same thing. It’s also not obvious to me that “the source of the problem” necessarily refers to any particular set of individuals.
On the basis of this comment, I have recognized this user as a possible troll and may delete comments from them (downvoted or otherwise) which seem to be attention-seeking.
[I.e. our local equivalent of “User was banned for this comment.”]
But we exist within a particular social context here—specifically, people supposedly come to this website, and participate in this forum, to attempt to be less wrong.
Instead, it appears that many people are engaging in (as someone else put it) obnoxious status displays, playing “look how edgy and selfish and status-motivated I am”, rather than actually attempting to aid each other in being less wrong.
And that’s fine if that’s an indicated maximum of your utility function, but I would think that other people would act to collectively punish that behavior rather than reward it, lest we turn into the kind of obnoxious circle-jerk/dickwaving contest that most of the internet tends to devolve into.
That is why status is a dangerous goal to pursue—because it tends produce an affective death-spiral until all other goals subordinate to gaining status.
I also agree, especially if one is trying to look high-status to the average person in the general population. Science and rationality is still looked at as nerdy, unfortunately.
Oddly, I tend to feel like having high status among nerdy types is the only time it actually “counts.” I get a rush when something I say here or within other nerd and geek communities is well received, or if I’m treated as an authority on X, etc...wheras, say, people calling me “sir” or otherwise treating me as higher-status at work makes me extremely uncomfortable. So do compliments from normals in general.
[Edit: “Status granted by a tribe I don’t identify with feels like a status hit instead” might be a good way to put it.]
Oddly, I tend to feel like having high status among nerdy types is the only time it actually “counts.”
Well, why would I care what status people who don’t regularly non-trivially interact with me assign to me?
say, people calling me “sir” or otherwise treating me as higher-status at work makes me extremely uncomfortable.
Same here, but I think the main reason for that is that it makes me feel ‘old’. (Teenagers and people in the early twenties aren’t usually treated that way (no matter how cool they are in the eyes in their peers), and I don’t exactly revel in being reminded that I’m no longer one.) ETA: I do like the fact that I’m now economically independent, though.
(Edited to add scare quotes around “old”, lest thirtysomethings resent me, as they usually do when I say I feel old.)
Yes, but on lesswrong, at least, we’ve been exposed to enough social psychology to understand why that’s a dangerous intrinsic goal to have.
It is totally okay to want social power and respect. You want social power and respect. If you believe that you don’t want social power and respect, then you will be motivated to lie to yourself about the actual causes of your actions.
(...) aren’t there better things to do with increased agency than to seek to dominate other potential agents?
“better” according to whom? The only one who can set a different standard for yourself is yourself, yet if you already do have that “dangerous intrinsic goal”, then, well, you already do have that goal (yay tautology). You can weigh it against other goals and duly modify it, but presumably if other goals outweighed your need to dominate, that would already have happened. Since it has not (for those who have that goal), that is reason to surmise that from the point of view of those agents there isn’t in fact anything better to do, even if they’d like to think that they think there was.
Yes, but on lesswrong, at least, we’ve been exposed to enough social psychology to understand why that’s a dangerous intrinsic goal to have. It’s certainly seductive, but aren’t there better things to do with increased agency than to seek to dominate other potential agents?
Not if it is, in fact, your intrinsic goal!
Of course there are occasions where having goals makes it less likely to actualize them, and so incentives exist roughly isomorphic to the ones which collapse CDT to TDT. The advice in How To Win Friends and Influence People is of this type—it advises you that in order to achieve social dominance and manipulate others you should become genuinely interested in them. But this is orthogonal to mindkilling.
Then maybe this is a deontological question rather than an ontological one. I would very much appreciate any help understanding why people seek to dominate other potential agents as an intrinsic goal.
If I was particularly interested in the question why people have the terminal values they have, I’d look into evolutionary psychology (start from Thou Art Godshatter) -- but if one doesn’t clearly keep in mind the evolutionary-cognitive boundary, or the is-ought distinction (committing the naturalistic fallacy), then one will risk being mind-killed by evo-psy (in a way similar to this—witness the dicks on the Internet who use evo-psy as a weapon against feminism), and if one does keep these distinctions in mind, then that question may become much less interesting.
What was inflammatory? Also: I find it wryly interesting that a post with a good point and informative links would be judged inflammatory in an article about not getting offended.
I insulted anti-feminist amateur evolutionary psychologists.
Also: I find it wryly interesting that a post with a good point and informative links would be judged inflammatory in an article about not getting offended.
;-)
(Actually, I hadn’t noticed that, but that’s a great reason (excuse?) to not edit my comment.)
(Actually, I hadn’t noticed that, but that’s a great reason (excuse?) to not edit my comment.)
I think both you and ialdabaoth have missed the point of the post. It is definitely not an invitation to be more inflammatory. It encourages not taking offense because taking offense has negative side effects. To the extent those side effects matter provoking them in others would also seem undesirable.
witness the dicks on the Internet who use evo-psy as a weapon against feminism
What do you mean “use as a weapon against” and why is it obviously a bad thing? Would you say it’s a fair complaint against EY that he uses Bayesianism as a “weapon against” religion?
I believe what army means is that some people mistakenly use evo-psy to make claims along the lines of “we have evolved to have [some characteristic], therefore it is morally right for us to have [aforementioned characteristic]”.
I’d add that many people appear to exercise motivated cognition in their use of ev-psych explanations; they want to justify a particular conclusion, so they write the bottom line and craft an argument from evolutionary psychology to work their way down to it. Although it would be hard for me to recall a precise example off the top of my head, I’ve certainly seen cases where people used evolutionary just-so stories to justify a sexual status quo, where I could easily see ways that the argument could have led to a completely different conclusion.
It’s not evolutionary psychology so much, but I’ve seen quite a volume of evolutionary just-so stories in the field of diet and nutrition: everyone from raw vegans to proponents of diets based on meat and animal fats seems eager to justify their findings by reference to the EEA. Generally, the more vegetarian a diet, the more its proponents will focus on our living hominid relatives; the more carnivorous, the more the focus is on the recent evolutionary environment.
Remember, it all adds up to normality. Thus we should not be surprised that the conclusion of evo-psych agree with the traditional ideas.
We should expect a perfected biology to predict our cultural data, not to agree with our cultural beliefs. ‘Normality’ doesn’t mean our expectations. ‘Normality’ doesn’t mean common sense or folk wisdom. It means our actual experiences. See Living in Many Worlds.
When people claim that they’re final argument tends to be a lot less convincing and involve a lot more mental gymnastics than the original.
How strong is that tendency? Try to quantify it. Then test the explanations where possible, after writing down your prediction. Did the first get an unfair advantage from status quo bias? Did the rivals seem gerrymandered and inelegant because reality is complicated? Did any of the theories tend to turn out to be correct?
‘Normality’ doesn’t mean common sense or folk wisdom.
Actually, yes it does. The results of the theory should agree with our common sense and folk wisdom when dealing with situations on ordinary human scales (or whatever the appropriate analog of “ordinary human scales” is).
Actually, yes it does. The results of the theory should agree with our common sense and folk wisdom when dealing with situations on ordinary human scales
You’re making two claims here. First, you’re making a substantive claim about the general reliability of human intuitions and cultural institutions when it comes to the human realm. Second, you’re making a semantic claim about what ‘It all adds up to normality’ means.
The former doctrine would be extremely difficult to substantiate. What evidence do you have to back it up? And the latter claim is clearly not right in any sense this community uses the term, as the LW posts about Egan’s Law speak of the recreation of the ordinary world of perception, not of the confirmation of folk wisdom or tradition. The LessWrong Wiki explicitly speaks of normality as ‘observed reality’, not as our body of folk theory. Which is a good thing, since otherwise Egan’s Law would directly contradict the principle “Think Like Reality”:
“Quantum physics is not “weird”. You are weird. You have the absolutely bizarre idea that reality ought to consist of little billiard balls bopping around, when in fact reality is a perfectly normal cloud of complex amplitude in configuration space. This is your problem, not reality’s, and you are the one who needs to change.
“Human intuitions were produced by evolution and evolution is a hack.”
Indeed, I would say that this claim, that our natural intuitions and common sense and folk wisdom and traditions are wont to be systematically mistaken, is one of the most foundational LessWrong claims. It lies at the very core of the utility of the heuristics/biases literature, which is a laundry list of ways we systematically misconstrue or imperfectly construe the truth. LessWrong is about not trusting your intuitions and cultural traditions (except where they have already been independently confirmed, or where the cost of investigating them exceeds the expected benefit of bothering to confirm them—and in neither case is this concession an affirmation of any intrinsic trustworthiness on the part of ‘common sense’ or ‘intuition’ or ‘folk wisdom’ or ‘tradition’).
It is true that common sense comes from somewhere, and that the existence of intuitions and cultural assumptions is a part of ‘normality’, is part of what a theory must ultimately account for and predict. But the truth of those beliefs is not a part of ‘normality’, is not a part of the data, the explanandum. They may or may not turn out to be correct; but there is no Bayesian reason to think that they must turn out right in the end, or even that they must turn out to at all resemble the right answer.
First let me repeat part of my comment with the phrase you seem to have missed in bold:
The results of the theory should agree with our common sense and folk wisdom when dealing with situations on ordinary human scales
In particular had Newton claimed that apples fall up, that would have been reason to reject his theory.
“Human intuitions were produced by evolution and evolution is a hack.”
That nevertheless works, and frequently works better than what our System II (conscious reasoning)-based theories can do. And remember our conscious reasoning is itself also a product of evolution.
Indeed, I would say that this claim, that our natural intuitions and common sense and folk wisdom and traditions are wont to be systematically mistaken,
A program to compute the area of a circle that uses pi=3.14 will be systematically mistaken, it is also likely to be sufficiently close for all practical purposes.
LessWrong is about not trusting your intuitions and cultural traditions (except where they have already been independently confirmed, or where the cost of investigating them exceeds the expected benefit of bothering to confirm them—and in neither case is this concession an affirmation of any intrinsic trustworthiness on the part of ‘common sense’ or ‘intuition’ or ‘folk wisdom’ or ‘tradition’).
Your intuitions and cultural traditions are evidence. As for possessing “intrinsic trustworthiness” I have no idea what you mean by that phrase.
They may or may not turn out to be correct; but there is no Bayesian reason to think that they must turn out right in the end, or even that they must turn out to at all resemble the right answer.
There is a Bayesian reason to think that our intuitions will in most cases resemble the right answer, at least in the sense that GR resembles Newtonian mechanics.
But this just isn’t so. Humans get things wrong about the human realm all the time, make false generalizations and trust deeply erroneous intuitions and aphorisms every day of their lives. ‘It all adds up to normality’ places a hard constraint on all reasonable theories: They must reproduce exactly the data of ordinary life. In contrast, what you mean by ‘It all adds up to normality’ seems to be more like ‘Our naive beliefs are generally right!’ The former claim is The Law (specifically, Egan’s Law); the latter is a bit of statistical speculation, seems in tension with the historical record and the contemporary psychology literature, and even if not initially implausible would still need a lot of support before it could be treated as established Fact. So conflating these two claims is singularly dangerous and misleading.
That nevertheless works, and frequently works better than what our System II (conscious reasoning)-based theories can do.
You’re conflating three different claims.
Egan’s Law: The correct model of the world must yield the actual data/evidence we observe.
We should generally expect our traditions, intuitions, and folk theories to be correct in their human-scale claims.
Our biases are severe, but not cripplingly so, and they are quite handy given our evolutionary history and resource constraints.
‘It all adds up to normality’ means 1, not 2. And the claim I was criticizing is 2, not 3 (the one you’re now defending).
A program to compute the area of a circle that uses pi=3.14 will be systematically mistaken, it is also likely to be sufficiently close for all practical purposes.
The evidence shows that in a great many cases, our intuitions and traditions aren’t just useful approximations of the truth, like Newtonian physics; they’re completely off-base. A lot of folk wisdom asserts just the opposite of the truth, not only about metaphysics but about ordinary human history, psychology, and society. So if ‘it all adds up to normality’ means ‘it all (in the human realm) confirms our folk expectations and intuitions’, then ‘it all adds up to normality’ is false. (But, as noted, this isn’t what ‘normality’ means here.)
Your intuitions and cultural traditions are evidence.
Sure, they’re evidence; but they’re not very strong evidence, without external support. And they’re data; but the data in question is that something is intuitive, not that the intuition itself is correct. The claims made by our scientifically uncultivated intuitions and culture are just models like any other, and can be confirmed or disconfirmed like any scientific model, no matter how down-to-earth and human-scaled they are. They do not have the special status of ‘normality’ assigned to the data—data, not theory—of everyday life, that Egan’s Law draws our attention to.
When Newton(?) claimed that objects of different mass but negligible air friction fell at the same rate, that theory was rejected.
Copernicus.
Natural intuitions, common sense, and folk wisdom have consistently shown that they cannot identify a theory which explains the actual observations better than they can.
Common sense and folk wisdom say that has changed, and we will now accept a new, more correct theory without challenging it.
So the Aztec add up to normal? Because I’m not seeing how a culture that thought human sacrifice was a virtue has much folk wisdom in common with the modern era.
Why was this down-voted? This is an on-point and sane response. If ‘normality’ is defined as tradition, then history should be a sequence of confirmations of past traditions and common sense (e.g., the common sense claim that the Earth is stationary and the Sun goes around it), as opposed to disconfirming our beliefs and providing alternative explanations of our perceptual data. The epistemic disagreement between cultures, and the epistemic change within cultures, both refute this idea.
‘It all adds up to normality’ in the original sense of ‘The right theory must predict our ordinary experience’ is a correct generalization 100% of the time. (It’s The Law.) ‘It all adds up to normality’ in Eugine’s sense of ‘The right theory must agree with folk wisdom, common sense, and traditional doctrine’ is a generalization that, historically, has almost never been right strictly, and has only sometimes been right approximately.
Well, I didn’t downvote, but saying the Aztecs viewed human sacrifice as a virtue is at best an oversimplification. They sacrificed a lot of people and believed they were virtuous in doing so, but my understanding is that sacrifice within the Aztec belief system was instrumental to worship, not virtuous in itself; you wouldn’t be lauded for sacrificing your neighbor to Homer Simpson, only for sacrifices serving established religious goals.
The broader point, though, seems to be that the appeal to societal normality equally well justifies norms that call for (e.g.) sacrificing children to the rain god Tlaloc, if sufficiently entrenched. That logic seems sound to me.
I think it would be missing Tim’s point to suppose that he’s ascribing some sort of quasi-Kantian value-in-itself to Aztec meta-ethics, when all he seems to be noting is that the Aztecs got torture wrong. If you want to reserve ‘virtue’ for a more specific idea and historically bound idea in Western ethics, I doubt he’d mind your paraphrasing his point in your preferred idiom. It takes a pretty wild imagination to read Tim’s comment and think he’s saying that the Aztecs considered human sacrifice a summum bonum or unconditionally and in-all-contexts good. That’s just not what the conversation is about.
If we take as given that a nonspecific criminal act against a specific-but-not-here-identified person is required to sustain an empire, does that mean that drone strikes have virtue?
(Vague and awkward phrasing to avoid discussing a violent act against an identifiable person)
(Note the hypothetical statement; in the least convenient world that statement is provably true)
If we take as given that a nonspecific criminal act against a specific-but-not-here-identified person is required to sustain an empire, does that mean that drone strikes have virtue?
I never said anything about virtue, merely about cause and effect.
To clarify: if at a given time common sense and folk wisdom are understood to predict a result R1 from experiment E where E involves a situation on ordinary human scales (or some appropriate analog), and at some later time E is performed and gives result R2 instead, would you consider that state of affairs consistent with the rule “the results of the theory should agree with our common sense and folk wisdom”, or in conflict with it?
Yes; OTOH, if you can already guess in which direction your observations will be moved by more rigorous study, you should move them already.
Not quite true. Say I have a d100 and I have two hypotheses—it is either fair or it is biased to roll ’87′ twice as often as any other number. I can already guess that my observation from rolling the die once will move me in the direction of believing the die is fair (ie. I can reliably guess that I will roll any number except 87). However, if I do happen to roll an 87 then I will update towards ‘biased’ to a greater degree.
It isn’t the direction of the expected evidence that is conserved. It’s the expectation (the directions of all the possibilities multiplied by their respective degrees).
Yup. There is, of course, potentially a big difference between how confident I am that my position will change, and how confident I am that my position will change in some specific direction.
The problem is that adding up to normality, while necessary, is not sufficient. It’s possible to explain the sexual status quo by appealing to patriarchy, sexism and institutionalized male privilege just as easy as by appealing to evo-psych. Any number of mutually-inconsistant theories can each indivually add up to normality; adding up to normality by itself does not tell us which theory is right.
I never said it was sufficient. One common criticism of evolutionary psychology is that “it justifies the sexual status quo”, my point is that this criticism doesn’t hold water.
Remember, it all adds up to normality. Thus we should not be surprised that the conclusion of evo-psych agree with the traditional ideas.
Not if the “traditional ideas” don’t necessarily reflect how things have been done for much of human history. Some of the gender norms people support with such arguments are genuine human universals, many others are not.
When people claim that they’re final argument tends to be a lot less convincing and involve a lot more mental gymnastics than the original.
I’ve known people to make evo-psych arguments justifying a sexual status quo which were implausible or even refuted by known anthropology. I think you’re assuming a higher baseline level of credibility among people who ascribe to your own position than is actually the case.
What I’ve seen tends to be more like, “we have evolved to have [some characteristic], asserting a deontological duty not to have [aforementioned characteristic] is not a good idea”.
I didn’t mean that using a theory as weapon against (i.e., in orter to argue against) a different theory is always obviously a bad thing; in particular, I don’t think that using Bayesianism to argue against religion is bad (so long as you don’t outright insult religious people or similar). But in this particular case, evo-psy is a descriptive theory, feminism is a normative theory, and you cannot derive “ought” from “is” without some meta-ethics, so if someone’s using evo-psy to argue against feminism there’s likely something wrong. (The other replies you’ve got put it better than I could.)
Feminists frequently make “is” assertions, and justify their “ought” assertions on the basis of said “is” assertions.
They do, but their “is” assertions are stuff like “women have historically (i.e. in the last several millennia) been, and to a certain extent still are, oppressed by men”, which aren’t actually contradicted by evolutionary psychology, which says stuff like “humans are X because, in the last several hundred millennia, X-er apes have had more offspring in average”. (And the “ought” assertions they justify based on “is” assertions are stuff like “we’re further south than where we want to be, so we ought to move northwards”; IOW, they’re justifying instrumental values, not terminal values.)
In any case, you seem to be arguing that feminism will now be joining religion in the trying to survive by claiming to be non-refutable club.
That wasn’t my intention, but at the moment I can’t think of a good way to edit my comment to make it clearer.
Another typical feminist claim is “differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization”. This is, as you’d imagine, the kind of claim that is easily subject to falsification by evolutionary psychology. The related normative claim that “we ought to socialize boys and girls as androgynously as possible”, becomes challenged by the evolutionary psychology claim that “we ought to socialize boys and girls in ways that take into account their inherent differences.
Another typical feminist claim is “differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization”.
I expect claim C1: “for all differences D between the behavior of boys and girls, D is due solely to socialization” is false, and I expect claim C2: “there exist differences D between the behavior of boys and girls such that D is due solely to socialization” is true.
I expect claim C3: “differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization” to generate more heat than light, by virtue of being ambiguous between C1 and C2.
If I assume by C3 you mean C1… I expect the claim C4: “there are people who would assert C1, and that the vast majority of such people self-label as feminist” is true, and I expect the claim C5: “the majority of people who self-label as feminist would assert C1″ is false.
I expect the claim C6: “‘differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization’ is a typical feminist claim” to shed more heat than light, by virtue of being ambiguous between C4 and C5.
I suspect that many of the feminists who are willing to admit C1 is technically false will insist it applies to the particular D under discussion. In any case, claims of the form C1(D) “the difference D between boys and girls is due solely to socialization” work just as well for my point.
I suppose now you’ll claim that most feminists never really believed that the differences in question where solely due to socialization, and this discussion will develop a tone similar to that of debating a theist who gradually dials down what his religion actually claims.
Out of curiosity, Eugine, what sort of background do you have with feminism, feminists, feminist texts, etc.? Many feminists define feminism as ‘gender egalitarianism’, ‘activism for gender equality’, or ‘activism for gender equality plus belief that women are disproportionately disadvantaged by current sociocultural norms relative to men’. How would you define ‘feminism’? What is your view of the importance of specifically anti-sexist intervention and memecraft, and/or on the prevalence of harmful or overapplied gender schemas? I want to get a clearer idea on the background and aims you’re bringing to this conversation, rather than skirting around the heart of the matter.
… Not quite. I’d say that the first definition is somewhat uncontroversial (People opposing it usually deny the continued existence of the problem rather than denying the feminists desire, reactionaries excluded) and the second may be mis-named and is extremely fragmentary with a whole bunch of different schools of thought, a few of which have thin coatings of anti-epistemology.
What would count as evidence that a particular behavior was caused solely by socialization? I’ll admit that evidence of sex-linked behavior among non-human primates is evidence that the similar behavior in humans is sex-linked. But before we start talking about proof, we need to agree what sorts of things count as evidence.
There are many behavior differences that cannot be explained solely on the basis of socialization. The most obvious is that women generally sit to pee, while men generally do not. Or we could look to some pregnancy related behavior that is not performed by men since they generally don’t get pregnant.
Likewise, there are some behaviors that we have strong reason to believe are pure socialization. For example, male preference for blue and female preference for pink is less than a century old.
What would count as evidence that a particular behavior was caused solely by socialization?
(..)
Likewise, there are some behaviors that we have strong reason to believe are pure socialization. For example, male preference for blue and female preference for pink is less than a century old.
I read that second link, and I am confused. He criticizes cultural anthropolgy for using concepts he believes are politically infected. On of his examples is “heteronormativity.” As I understand that word, it means something like:
social pressure to behave (and feel) like a “standard” heterosexual, i.e. get married, have kids, etc.
I understand if you don’t think that type of social pressure is bad, but do you deny it exists? What should we call it?
Khan’s complaint is that “heteronormativity” is used as a boo light, just like the other words on his list: “Privilege. Oppression. Colonialism. Patriarchy.”
Yes, he thinks heteronormativity is fine. I don’t.
I asked you if it occurs, not if you disapprove of the phenomena of heteronormtivity.
Because if it occurs, then your argument that anthropology is unconnected to reality needs a better justification. Biased != unconnected with reality. Even biased evidence should have the potential to change a Bayesian reasoner’s probability estimate in the direction that the producer of the evidence suggests.
I mean boo light in the technical LW sense. I don’t know whether Khan approves of heteronormtivity, I’m more sure he doesn’t approve of oppression, which is in the same list.
I’d add that ‘heteronormativity’ and the other words on the list are also sometimes used as spammable boo lights, sometimes leading to rather word-salad-like philosophies of condemnation, and that ‘privilege’ sometimes (but usually does not) forms part of an anti-epistemology.
I’d also add that specifically ‘colonialism’ and ‘patriarchy’ (also ‘capitalism’ when used as a quasi-boo-light) are occasionally treated as almost Platonic properties attached to society at large that automatically color every interaction, even among people who should be able to resist their influence or do not have a concrete reason to care.
That said, I think that all of these things have a very real meaningful existence and all of them are, usually, actually bad.
I think it’s pretty dangerous to describe terms from other fields of study as merely being applause or boo lights. Consider how frequently LW-newbies use “rational” as an applause light until corrected by others. Instead of taking terms from other fields as merely being applause or boo lights, we should consider that the terms might be frequently misused by novices or in popular culture, in just the same way that terms like “rational” or “rationalist” are. (TVTropes link.)
Take “privilege”, for instance.
It seems to be widely assumed that when social critics or activists attribute “privilege” to someone, that they are calling that person evil, arrogant, irresponsible, or something of the like. Because “privilege” is used in sentences that are spoken angrily, it is taken to be not merely a boo light but something akin to a swear word. And indeed it is sometimes used that way, because, well, people get angry sometimes when discussing starvation, rape, police brutality, and other things that activists talk about.
“Privilege” has a pretty specific meaning though. It means “social advantages that are not perceived as advantages but as the normal condition”. In other words: Some people have X, while others don’t; and those who do have X think that having X is unremarkable and normal.
To make up an artificial example:
Suppose that there are blue weasels and red weasels working in an office. For whatever reason, blue weasels are comfortable in a temperature range of 18–28C, while red weasels are comfortable in 22–32C. The office thermostat is set to “room temperature”, the normal temperature, of 20C. So the red weasels are always cold and have to buy expensive sweaters (at their own expense) to avoid shivering, while blue weasels frolic about in the nude.
When anyweasel proposes turning up the heat, they are reminded that running the heater is expensive and that 20C is the established normal room temperature — it even says so on the Wikipedia article “room temperature”! That some weasels complain about the cold and how expensive sweaters are is their own problem — maybe if they frolicked about in the nude more, they would feel better? Besides, if we started turning up the heat, before too long it would be much too hot for anyweasel! 20C is normal, and if some weasels are unhappy with that, well, that’s actually fortunate for the sweater-knitters, isn’t it?
Note that noweasel is doing any cost-benefit analysis here — and they also aren’t really treating all weasels’ interests as equally worthwhile. They’re just assuming that being cold is a fact about red weasels’ deviation from the temperature sense that they should possess (a normative claim targeted at the underprivileged), as opposed to being about the differences between red and blue weasels and the historical control of the thermostat by certain blue weasels (a descriptive claim about the history and structure of weasel society).
Not only does the temperature setting of 20C advantage some weasels over others, but the way that weasels talk about temperature — the discourse — contains assumptions about what is normal that advantage some weasels over others.
It is perhaps worth noting that the word “status” often gets used on LW to describe position in a social structure, with the understanding that individuals with higher status get various benefits (not always obvious ones), and that a lot of human behavior is designed to obtain/challenge/protect status even if the individual performing the behavior doesn’t consciously have that goal. I suspect that talking about the blue weasels as a high-status subgroup would not raise any eyebrows here, and would imply all the patterns you discuss here, even if talking about the “privilege” possessed by blue weasels raised hackles.
Somewhat to my amusement, I’ve gotten chastised for talking about status this way in communities of social activists, who “explained” to me that I was actually talking about privilege, and referring to it as status trivialized it.
Somewhat to my amusement, I’ve gotten chastised for talking about status this way in communities of social activists, who “explained” to me that I was actually talking about privilege, and referring to it as status trivialized it.
That’s an interesting complaint. It suggests that we might understand and talk about social organization in ways that’re denotationally familiar to these communities of social activists, whoever they are, but that certain connotations are customary in that space that aren’t customary here.
As others have noted I don’t think status is all that good a term for what’s going on in the weasel example, but insofar as our understanding of status does overlap with the activist scene’s understanding of privilege, I think this is a good argument for preferring our own framing. At least unless and until we can decide that we actually want those connotations.
I suspect that talking about the blue weasels as a high-status subgroup would not raise any eyebrows here,
I might object since this is an abuse of the concept of status. Status is about how a person is thought of by other people. It is not about who happens to benefit from an established Schelling point, especially if the group benefiting had nothing to do with establishing it.
Status is about how a person is thought of by other people.
I’m assuming it’s acceptable to treat weasels as “people” in this example. Can you clarify how, on your account, the way red weasels in this example are thought of by other weasels differs (or doesn’t differ) from the way blue weasels are thought of?
Can you clarify how, on your account, the way red weasels in this example are thought of by other weasels differs (or doesn’t differ) from the way blue weasels are thought of?
I don’t know, i.e., it’s not at all clear from the example, and that’s my point. Analyzing the example in terms of status doesn’t work.
It seems clear to me, for example, that red weasels are thought of in the example as possessing an abnormal temperature sense, and blue weasels are thought of as possessing a normal temperature sense. Would you disagree with this?
It seems clear to me, for example, that red weasels are thought of in the example as possessing an abnormal temperature sense, and blue weasels are thought of as possessing a normal temperature sense. Would you disagree with this?
Well fubarobfusco stipulated they are and it’s his hypothetical situation. Aside from that, I’m not sure what you’re asking.
As I mentioned here, I’d analyze the weasel example in terms of Schelling points. As fubarobfusco referred to the weasels using standard room temperature and citing Wikipedia, I assume the weasels chose their Schelling point based on human norms, most likely they’ve adopted any human norms wholesale in an attempt to emulate the successful human civilization. I realize I’ve just massively expended fubarobfusco’s hypothetical, but that’s the thing about Schelling points, they can make irrelevant aspects of the scenario relevant.
Well fubarobfusco stipulated they are and it’s his hypothetical situation. Aside from that, I’m not sure what you’re asking.
Yes, I agree that in fubarobfusco’s presentation of his hypothetical situation, the red red weasels are thought of in the example as possessing an abnormal temperature sense, and blue weasels are thought of as possessing a normal temperature sense. Which is why fubarobfusco’s presentation of his hypothetical situation seems to me to clearly provide enough information to determine at least some ways in which red weasels are thought of by other weasels differently from the way blue weasels are thought of. Which is why I was puzzled when you claimed fubarobfusco’s presentation didn’t provide enough information to determine that.
Hope that clarifies what I was asking. No further answer is required, though; I think I’ve gotten enough of a response.
WRT Schelling points, if properly understanding your analysis depends on reading Strategy of Conflict, I’ll defer further discussion until I’ve done so. Thanks for the pointer.
As fubarobfusco referred to the weasels using standard room temperature and citing Wikipedia, I assume the weasels chose their Schelling point based on human norms, most likely they’ve adopted any human norms wholesale in an attempt to emulate the successful human civilization.
I assumed the hypothetical took place in a world only populated by weasels, where Wikipedia was written by weasels, and the room temperature article ultimately reflected the historical thermostat setting standard set by blue weasels.
“Privilege” has two disadvantages vis-à-vis “status”, though. First, it suggests a binary distinction—privilege or no privilege -, as opposed to degrees of status. Second, status can be acquired, while the way I hear “privilege” used seems to exclude that.
Folks who use “privilege” as part of their usual vocabulary often note that people can have (and lack) different sorts of privilege, actually — for instance, racial, religious, or heterosexual privilege — that these are not projected onto a single dimension.
Yes, the usual term for this is “intersectionality,” but I have yet to see a good theory of how intersectionality actually works, that does not consist mainly of just repeating the word (as a teacher’s password).
Status does seem like a superior conceptual tool, for the reasons Creutzer cited. (It helps explain why, say, football players may have obvious ‘privilege’ only in certain situations and with certain people, and may actually be underprivileged in other situations.)
The only thing it is lacking is a widespread understanding & terminology to reflect the fact that people (especially high-status people) are often oblivious to status differentials & treat them as basic features of the universe.
The only thing it is lacking is a widespread understanding & terminology to reflect the fact that people (especially high-status people) are often oblivious to status differentials & treat them as basic features of the universe.
I’m not sure about that, in my experience it’s low status people who are more likely to treat status differentials as basic features of the universe. High status people seem to be more aware of status, as indicated by how much effort they put into fighting for it (mostly against other high status people).
Not sure. That may start to tie into Moldbug’s Cathedral a bit?
Alternatively, you may be ignoring the full scale. I’d say that the people most likely to ignore status or just consider it basic are those who are secure in their own status.
I didn’t say low status people ignore status, rather they tend to treat it as basic features of the universe, specifically I was referring to existentialism in this sense.
Yes, the usual term for this is “intersectionality,” but I have yet to see a good theory of how intersectionality actually works, that does not consist mainly of just repeating the word (as a teacher’s password).
As far I can tell, intersectionality is just the observation that if A is worse than Ā and E is worse than Ē, then AE is usually worse than ĀE and AĒ. Which of course isn’t always the case.
EDIT: IOW, intersectionality is the idea that this remotely makes sense.
Thinking about it I think the biggest problem with “intersectionality” and the concept of “privilege” in general is that it groups together many differences that actually have very little else in common and encourages people to apply ideas appropriate to one of these categories to others where they are frequently wildly inappropriate. To take three examples from the chart that are in some sense maximally different consider race, religion, and disability.
Race is an innate property that controversially correlates with certain abilities and behaviors. Disability is an innate property (or practical purposes at least) that perfectly and inherently correlates with ability. One way to see the difference between the two is to notice that a procedure that makes a blind person sighted is an unalloyed good that would more-or-less completely solve the problem, whereas a procedure that turns a black person’s skin white doesn’t solve any of the relevant problems.
Religion is a choice (subject to the person’s tradition). While there are in fact to reasons to avoid discriminating by religion except when its directly relevant they are somewhat different from the reasons for the other traits.
Religion is a choice (subject to the person’s tradition).
For some value of “choice” and “subject”, it is… OTOH, I think (though I’m extrapolating like hell, so I’m not very confident) that many fewer people convert to a different religion than dye their hair (at least among females), and still saying “hair colour is a choice (subject to the person’s genome)” would sound kind-of weird to me.
I frequently hear “privilege” used in ways that allow for it to be acquired or lost, and I frequently hear it used in ways that allow for different groups to have more or less privilege relative to one another (that is, degrees of privilege). But I’m willing to believe that other linguistic communities exist that behave as you describe.
Remember, just because people are using a term incorrectly does not mean that the term does not represent something empirically useful. In this case, the nuance between “Status” and “Privilege” is that “Privilege” is a special kind of status; it is status acquired based on group identity. There’s an entire branch of study called “Intersectionality” that touches precisely on the ideas that ‘privilege’ exists in degrees, can be gained and lost, and is often situational. Even there, though, there’s a lot of BS and politicking.
But remember that that doesn’t invalidate the usefulness of the concept, any more than “just-so stories” and BS justifications invalidate evolutionary psychology as a discipline. Intersectionality is clearly a fruitful area for cultural research that is in desperate need of a rationalist approach.
Intersectionality does need better rationalism. I’d add that some intersectioanlity has the drawback of fighting a War On Keeping Your Identity Small, and in many cases, when activist groups dedicated to a single purpose absorb the idea of intersectionality, they rapidly assimilate into the the greater Social Justice Bloc, with all the positives and all the negatives that entails. Furthermore, intersectionality sometimes appears to stand against utilitarian strict optimization.
Yes, one thing that bothers me about social justice folks is that they sometimes sound very essentialist (“they assume a homeless white man is more privileged than Oprah Winfrey”, as I’ve seen someone put it).
They do have their explanation there. The essentialim I have noticed usually comes from radical feminism (which is often taken to mean ‘extremist feminism’ but while nearly all radical feminists are extremist, the term when used by radical feminists actually refers to a specific and rather essentialist + one sided view of gender relations).
They have a tendancy to conceptualize patriarchy as a diffuse property of society that colors everything that even slightly involves gender, and tend to be unwilling to slice it up into its component parts. They also tend to ignore how immense the possible gender-relations-space is outside patriarchy/!patriarchy.
The thing I find most frustrating is how learning about intersectionality leads to groups being assimilated by the Equality Borg. It’s almost like an infohazard for progressives.
In this case, the nuance between “Status” and “Privilege” is that “Privilege” is a special kind of status; it is status acquired based on group identity.
I would like to point out that you’ve just swapped the definition of “privilege” from the one fubarobfusco gave to the one I mentioned in this comment.
“Privilege” has a pretty specific meaning though. It means “social advantages that are not perceived as advantages but as the normal condition”. In other words: Some people have X, while others don’t; and those who do have X think that having X is unremarkable and normal.
For a while now, this has been my number-one example of a word that’s useful to taboo. Since the definition is that succinct, and the word “privilege” has a tendency to derail what could have been a good conversation, we’re probably better off simply not using the word.
For a while now, this has been my number-one example of a word that’s useful to taboo.
That makes sense to me — but only for reasons analogous to why one might want to taboo “rationality”, namely that it’s easy to be misunderstood since the listener has heard lots of low-information uses of the word.
Still, if I were to tell someone else that they have to taboo their field’s terminology — and start speaking in novel (albeit succinct) synonyms — in order to convince me that they’re not simply emitting applause or boo lights, that would seem like a hostile move on my part. I’d be telling them that they have to take on the cognitive load of translating from their usual language (with words like “privilege” and “heteronormativity”) into a language that I’ve deigned to accept (with words like “misnormalized advantages” or “opposite-sex assumptions”).
When communication seems to be failing, my instinct is to taboo my own communication-disrupting language and adopt my interlocutor’s language instead. When I don’t understand my interlocutor’s language well enough to adopt it, my instinct is to ask questions about it. When communication has failed so thoroughly that I can’t ask such questions and understand the answers, I pretty much give up.
It seems like a lot of people don’t do this. I wonder why? It seems common for people to resist adopting any of the other party’s terminology. Some possible explanations:
I’m mistaken. It’s actually rare for people to resist adopting the other party’s terminology — I’m just exercising the availability heuristic.
This is like speciation. The cases where people don’t adopt the other’s terminology are those where it’s advantageous (to whom?) to pick one side of a language barrier (and defend it) instead of mixing. When that isn’t the case, people already have mixed their terminology — invisibly.
It’s a way of pushing cognitive costs around as a primate status fight — “I’m too important to bother to understand you; you have to understand me.” (In the extreme case this would lead to the creation of low-status roles that specialize in understanding without expecting to be understood. Do those exist? Some wag would probably say “wife” or “husband”, ha ha.)
It’s a way of defining and defending territories — “Yes, you get to insist on your language in that magisterium, and I get to insist on mine in this one.” (This seems to be more what goes on in academia than #3.)
People are ignorant of the benefits of understanding one another. Only awesome people like you and I have figured out that understanding other people is awesome. (This seems really unlikely, but it seems to be the premise of some schools of communication improvement.)
People are afraid that if they started using the other party’s language they would mess up their command of their current language. (Economists can’t afford to learn to talk like cultural anthropologists because they might slip up and use anthro-jargon in front of their economist buddies and seem ignorant of economics jargon.)
People are afraid that if they started using the other party’s language they would become disloyal to their current affiliations. (Economists can’t afford to learn to talk like cultural anthropologists because they might become convinced cultural anthropology is right and would lose all their economist buddies.)
In the extreme case this would lead to the creation of low-status roles that specialize in understanding without expecting to be understood. Do those exist?
9. Language carries with it many framings, assumptions, associations, and implicit value judgments (see: The Noncentral Fallacy). Letting the other side set the language lets them shape the playing field, which gives them a large home field advantage.
10. People are cognitive misers who mostly rely on cached thoughts. For example, the arguments that they make are arguments that they’ve thought about before, not ones that they’re thinking up on the spot. And their thoughts are cached in their own language, not the other party’s language. (Related to #3, but it’s not about status.)
/#1 might certainly be true, but if so it’s true of both of us; it seems common to me as well. I agree with you about #3 and #4, though I mostly think of #4 as a special case of #3. I find #5 unlikely, but if we’re going to list it, we should also note the symmetrical possibility that you and I overestimate the benefits of understanding one another. A variant of #7 is that using the other party’s language is seen as a signal of alliance with the other party’s tribe, which might cost them alliances with their own tribe… e.g., even if the economist isn’t convinced of cultural anthropology, their economist buddies might think they are. (Which arguably is just another special case of #3.)
As long as we’re listing lots of possibilities, I would add #8: They believe their language is superior to their interlocutor’s language, and that the benefits of using superior language exceed the benefits of using shared language. And, relatedly. #8b: Behaving as though they believe #8 signals the superiority of their language (and more generally of their thinking). Which arguably is just another special case of #3.
I see the difference between #8 and #3 being that using superior language might be positive-sum in the long run, whereas pushing cognitive costs onto someone else is zero- or negative-sum.
I suppose. That said, if your thinking is superior to mine then you gaining status relative to me (whether through cognitive-cost-pushing as in #3, or through some other status-claiming move) might be positive-sum in the long run as well. Regardless, I agree that #8 is distinct from #3.
I should also note that the strategy I describe often fails when people interpret my questions about their language as veiled counterarguments, which they then attempt to decipher and respond to. Since my questions aren’t actually counterarguments, this frequently causes the discussion to fall apart into incoherence, since whatever counterargument they infer and respond to often seems utterly arbitrary to me.
It’s not surprising that people do this, since people do often use questions as a form of veiled counterargument.
In the extreme case this would lead to the creation of low-status roles that specialize in understanding without expecting to be understood. Do those exist?
I don’t think “understanding without expecting to be understood” is quite it, but there are a number of relatively low-status roles, in domains with specialized vocabularies, whose job is basically to act as a translation layer between specialist output and the general public. Tech support is the obvious example. In medicine, family practice seems to have shades of this, and it’s low-status compared to the specialties. Grad students sometimes pick this up in their TA role. I’m not sure if anything similar happens in law.
11*. Each party suspects this (perhaps correctly) of the other.
(This is the same but with the usual ethical symmetry assumption that the other is at least in theory capable of occupying the same position towards us that we occupy towards them.)
“Privilege” has a pretty specific meaning though. It means “social advantages that are not perceived as advantages but as the normal condition”. In other words: Some people have X, while others don’t; and those who do have X think that having X is unremarkable and normal.
I’ve occasionally been given definitions of “privilege” by activists, and each time the definition is different. A more common one is “an unfair advantage that people have by virtue of being in certain groups”.
You’re right, and both definitions tend to be used interchangeably. I’ll work on correcting that in my own speech, but I think in the meantime here’s the essence of it:
Privilege is a phenomenon that occurs as the result of a special kind of status, but the term also gets used to describe the form of status that generates the phenomenon.
When a status based on group identity is pervasive enough to be invisible to members of that group, the resulting assumptions lead to a set of behavior called “privilege”. It’s probably even clearer to use the term “privileged status” than mere “privilege”, when talking about the status itself rather than the resulting behaviors; I’m going to try using that myself for the next few weeks and see if I can anchor some critical self-analysis to the process.
Privilege is a phenomenon that occurs as the result of a special kind of status, but the term also gets used to describe the form of status that generates the phenomenon.
That still doesn’t work since the weasel example involves “privilege” in fubarobfusco’s sense but as I pointed out here doesn’t actually involve status.
Upvoted for pretty good description, and I agree that all of these are actually usually used in a meaningful (if not optimal) way.
It might be added that in some privilege cases, the experience of not having the privilege is totally alien and leads to things like lonely men envying sexual harassment.
By the way, if you’re interested in what I consider a better analysis of your weasel example, I recommend looking at Thomas C. Schelling’s Strategy of Conflict, particularly chapter 3. (I don’t think I can do justice to his analysis in this comment.)
I suppose now you’ll claim that most feminists never really believed that the differences in question where solely due to socialization, and this discussion will develop a tone similar to that of debating a theist who gradually dials down what his religion actually claims.
What reaction do you expect to get by pre-emptively putting words in my mouth with this kind of a sneering tone? Because my reaction is to immediately lose all interest in further discussion with you.
If that was the reaction you expected, then you’re successfully predicting the results of your behavior, which is great.
If that wasn’t the reaction you expected, then I hope this helps you calibrate your behavior better in the future.
There is dispute in this community (and society as a whole) about whether anything is wrong with gender dynamics, and how to talk about making changes.
Eugine has a fairly hostile position to the current methods of talking about what needs changing. You have a less hostile position to those methods. If he’s the only person who talks about this topic in this venue, he gets to control this venue’s position on reflexive examination of social norms, by moving the position towards more extreme hostility.
he gets to control this venue’s position on reflexive examination of social norms, by moving the position towards more extreme hostility.
I’m not opposed to reflexive examination of social norms, although I do believe it should be done carefully. My objection is to the methods you seem to prefer for examining social norms don’t correspond to reality.
Thanks for the clarification; this is not at all what I’d initially understood you to be saying.
In general it’s worth staying aware of the differences between “nobody talks to X about gender dynamics” and “only X talks about gender dynamics,” as it’s the latter (or approximations thereof) that cause the problem you describe… but I agree that if X is consistent about involving themself in all discussions of gender dynamics, the former starts to approximate the latter.
So yeah, I’d say you’re right, this is one of the ways evaporative cooling works. (And I understand that that’s not meant as a personal criticism, except perhaps in the most technical of senses, and I’m not taking it as one.)
Edit: Hm. Annoyingly, actually, I do seem to be taking it as one. So let me say, rather, that I don’t endorse taking it as one, and will work on getting over it. :-)
But I want to note for any readers of this thread that this is what evaporative cooling of group beliefs can look like on a particular topic.
To be fair (I’m not sure on who—maybe Dave, maybe everyone here) nothing that has gone on in this backwater of a subthread can be considered at all representative of a group position on anything. From the beginning this has been about slinging mud and taking offense at positions allegedly possessed by various groups of people that presumably exist somewhere on the internet. Most people just wouldn’t touch this with an 11 foot pole.
nothing that has gone on in this backwater of a subthread can be considered at all representative of a group position on anything.
I’m not sure I agree. This discussion is one example of what seems to me to be a representative pattern of behavior. Obviously, I am at substantial risk of mind-killed biased perception, but it seems to me that the local consensus is basically:
Not everything in current social dynamics about sex and gender is immoral, but specifying which is which is not necessary. Therefore, all challenges to the current social dynamics are out of bounds in this venue.
That has the effect of cutting out the extremists on both ends, but also cuts moderate-extremist social change activists out without addressing their counterparts on the other end of the continuum.
Behaviors that punish +5, +4, and −5 (on the continuum of positions) will skew what is said aloud so that it appears to outsiders that the local consensus is different than what is actually is. Much like the complaint about political correctness, that punishing +5, −4, and −5 will change what newcomers see as acceptable.
Obviously, I am at substantial risk of mind-killed biased perception, but it seems to me that the local consensus is basically:
Not everything in current social dynamics about sex and gender is immoral, but specifying which is which is not necessary. Therefore, all challenges to the current social dynamics are out of bounds in this venue.
My position is that the quality of discussion on that particular subject is a disgrace that I don’t want to be associated with and would prefer not to have to put up with here. Years of experience suggest improvement is unlikely and that suppressing the conversation is the least harmful outcome. I don’t think I’m alone in that position (and so challenge your proposed ‘consensus’).
Behaviors that punish +5, +4, and −5 (on the continuum of positions) will skew what is said aloud so that it appears to outsiders that the local consensus is different than what is actually is. Much like the complaint about political correctness, that punishing +5, −4, and −5 will change what newcomers see as acceptable.
If newcomers were to see no conversation about moralizing sexual dynamics at all then they may be given the impression that this isn’t a good place to moralize about sexual dynamics. That would seem to be the best outcome that is realistically attainable.
My position is that the quality of discussion on that particular subject is a disgrace that I don’t want to be associated with and would prefer not to have to put up with here. Years of experience suggest improvement is unlikely and that suppressing the conversation is the least harmful outcome. I don’t think I’m alone in that position (and so challenge your proposed ‘consensus’).
You’d like a venue that talks about how to figure out what object-level moral injunctions to put onto a super-intelligent artificial entity, but doesn’t talk about how to talk about how one large group of humans treats another large group of human? I’m sympathetic to your disgust with the quality of discourse, but I think you are asking for the impossible.
Separately, it isn’t that hard to find examples of disparate treatment of various positions on the continuum, independent of how extreme they are. In other words, there are lots of −4 discussion posts and comment that are well received, while there are fewer +4 discussion posts and comments equally well received. So even if the consensus you wanted were possible, I don’t think it is actually being implemented.
Separately, it isn’t that hard to find examples of disparate treatment of various positions on the continuum, independent of how extreme they are. In other words, there are lots of −4 discussion posts and comment that are well received, while there are fewer +4 discussion posts and comments equally well received.
I’d expect people’s ideas of where the zero point is to vary considerably, mainly thanks to selection effects: on average, people tend to be exposed mainly to political ideas similar to their own, partly due to political tribalism and partly because of geographical, age, and social class differences. That gives us a skewed local mean, and selection bias research tells us that people are not very good at compensating for that kind of thing even when they know it exists.
On average, therefore, we’d expect people with strong opinions on both sides of the aisle to feel that their side is meeting with a slightly harsher reception on the margins. That seems to explain most perceived political bias in this forum pretty well; taking the last poll results into account, if any mainstream position has an unusually hard time on the margins I’d expect it to be traditionalist conservatism. (Disclaimer: I am not a traditionalist.)
You’d like a venue that talks about how to figure out what object-level moral injunctions to put onto a super-intelligent artificial entity, but doesn’t talk about how to talk about how one large group of humans treats another large group of human?
Ideally I would like a venue where I just prevent people from slinging bullshit. That isn’t an option available to me. An option that is available is to make use of my trivial “downvote” and “make comments” powers to very slightly influence reality in the direction of less bullshit slinging contests.
I was trying to preempt a way the discussion could go. As for how I expected you to react, I’m generally not in the habit of psychoanalyzing my interlocutors. Although here is an example of how I respond to words being put in my mouth without flipping out.
And both claims are wrong- The only correct way of phrasing the normative claim is “We ought to socialize boys and girls in the way that maximizes instrumental value.”
It might have instrumental value to socialize boys and girls differently, even if there is no biological basis for the difference. It might be more valuable to socialize them the same, even if there is a biological reason why they are different.
Another typical feminist claim is “differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization”.
Citation needed. A more typical claim might be “socialization is the cause of the vast majority (but not the entirety) of the observed difference between boys’ and girls’ behaviors and skills,” and this easily falsifiable claim is borne out by the available data, never mind evo psych just-so stories about what worked in the EEA.
A lot of nitpicky LW discussion could be avoided if we implicitly qualified absolute-sounding claims about relations in real life with “in most cases”. It would be rare that someone would object to e.g. a claim such as “differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization” being amended by “in the vast majority of case”, or by ”… but there are exceptions.”
We can default to claims as absolute when they refer to theoretical frameworks, for which absolute claims typically work out more, and are intended more often.
Let me side with your youthful incarnation from five years ago:
You and I know that claims about human behavior are almost never meant to hold absolutely, but this is not true for everyone who will eventually encounter such a claim.
Beyond just clarifying, you did seem to have taken the initial comment at face value, even though you probably suspected the intended meaning.
I agree with you regarding making the intended meaning as plain as possible as best practice; however, sidetracking the discussion in such a way often leads to “gotcha” continuations of minor details (minor because most people will side with you interpreting claims about human behavior as non-absolute by default, and follow the discussion correctly without such clarifications/rebuttals), which tend to replace other, more substantive discussions.
Or, you know, a google search. From memory even a google site search would be adequate.
(Which is not to say that such claim is inherent to feminism itself. Merely that the specific observation by Eugine that it is often made by feminists is not worthy of ‘citation needed’ stigma.)
Since the claim that is actually often made by feminists is both weaker and, according to current research, true, Eugine’s “observation” is a strawman. And I snort at the notion that my reply imparts a “stigma”.
They do, but their “is” assertions are stuff like “women have historically (i.e. in the last several millennia) been, and to a certain extent still are, oppressed by men”,
That’s a far more complicated claim than it appears, with much of the complexity hiding inside the word “oppressed”.
When I find other people’s motivations mysterious, I find it helps to see if I have anything like that motivation (for dominance, it might be a desire to be in charge of anything at all) and imagine it as much more important in my life.
Yes, but on lesswrong, at least, we’ve been exposed to enough social psychology to understand why that’s a dangerous intrinsic goal to have. It’s certainly seductive, but aren’t there better things to do with increased agency than to seek to dominate other potential agents?
Unless there’s a friendly AI which has been built in secret somewhere, we’re still all human. With all the weaknesses and foibles of human nature; though we might try to mitigate those weaknesses, one of the biggest weaknesses in human nature is the belief that we have already mitigated those weaknesses, leading us to stop trying.
Status interactions are a big part of the human psyche. We signal in many ways—posture, facial expression, selection of clothing, word choice—and we respond to such signals automatically. If a man steps up to one and asks for directions to the local primary school, one would look at his signals before replying. Is he carrying a container of petrol and a box of matches, does he have a crazed look in his eye? Perhaps better to direct him to the local police station. Is he in a nice suit, smartly dressed, with well-shined shoes, accompanied by a small child in a brand-new school uniform? He probably has legitimate business at the school. And inbetween the two, there’s a whole range of potential sets of signals; and where there are signals, there are those who subvert the signals. Social hackers, I guess one could call them. And where such people exist—well, is it a good thing to pay attention to the signals or not? How much importance should one place on these signals, when the signals themselves could be subverted? How should one signal oneself—for any behaviour is a signal of some sort?
With all the weaknesses and foibles of human nature; though we might try to mitigate those weaknesses, one of the biggest weaknesses in human nature is the belief that we have already mitigated those weaknesses, leading us to stop trying.
Except that what’s being discussed here is the exploitation of those weaknesses, not their mitigation. And seeking to exploit those weaknesses as an end in and of itself leads to a particular kind of affective death spiral that rationalists claim to want to avoid, so I’m trying to raise a “what’s up with that?” signal before a particular set of adverse cultural values lock in.
Ah, I see; so while I’m saying that I expect that some exploitation will happen with high probability in any sufficiently large social group, you are trying to point out the negative side of said exploitation and thus cut it off, or at least reduce it, at an early stage.
No, but social power + respect can be useful for achieving your goals (especially if one of your goals is social power and respect, which seem to be true for a lot of people).
Yes, but on lesswrong, at least, we’ve been exposed to enough social psychology to understand why that’s a dangerous intrinsic goal to have. It’s certainly seductive, but aren’t there better things to do with increased agency than to seek to dominate other potential agents?
Last I checked (which was admittedly a while ago), there are a decent number of Less Wrong users who act obnoxiously high status in real life (including some who are quite prominent). I’d love to have the egalitarian norms you describe, but I think first we’d have to convince them to stop.
This may not be trivial. I’ve noticed that my high status behaviors often seem pretty instinctual, and I’ve also noticed that I have a fair amount of mental resistance to giving up status even if I’d like to in theory (ex.: apologizing).
The way you worded this makes it sound as if there are a few people ruining it for everyone. If this is actually the case, then the solution is, when these people begin acting obnoxiously high status, say “You’re being obnoxious. Stop.” Bystander effect, etc. If you try this and it doesn’t work, let me know so I can update.
Without identifying the people involved, can you describe in more concrete terms the behaviours you are talking about?
Name three?
You are asking John to do something that is clearly unwise for him to do in a form typically used with the connotation that if the person does not comply it is because they can not. This is disingenuous.
Good point, though he might reply to him in a private message.
If John wants a problem to stop, it would be nice to first identify more clearly the source of the problem. Otherwise he’s just doing the LW analogue of vaguebooking.
It’s not obvious to me that “the source of the problem” and “the people most saliently exhibiting the symptoms” are the same thing. It’s also not obvious to me that “the source of the problem” necessarily refers to any particular set of individuals.
Hahahahahahaha. I’m going to get negative points for this, but it’s worth it to me. I so enjoy pointing out Karma. I love the irony.
you
I should point out that I obviously have that problem as well, given this response.
On the basis of this comment, I have recognized this user as a possible troll and may delete comments from them (downvoted or otherwise) which seem to be attention-seeking.
[I.e. our local equivalent of “User was banned for this comment.”]
Have you ever met me in real life?
The utility function is not up for grabs.
In the abstract, sure.
But we exist within a particular social context here—specifically, people supposedly come to this website, and participate in this forum, to attempt to be less wrong.
Instead, it appears that many people are engaging in (as someone else put it) obnoxious status displays, playing “look how edgy and selfish and status-motivated I am”, rather than actually attempting to aid each other in being less wrong.
And that’s fine if that’s an indicated maximum of your utility function, but I would think that other people would act to collectively punish that behavior rather than reward it, lest we turn into the kind of obnoxious circle-jerk/dickwaving contest that most of the internet tends to devolve into.
That is why status is a dangerous goal to pursue—because it tends produce an affective death-spiral until all other goals subordinate to gaining status.
Agreed—Less Wrong is a particularly bad place to pursue the goal of social power.
I also agree, especially if one is trying to look high-status to the average person in the general population. Science and rationality is still looked at as nerdy, unfortunately.
Oddly, I tend to feel like having high status among nerdy types is the only time it actually “counts.” I get a rush when something I say here or within other nerd and geek communities is well received, or if I’m treated as an authority on X, etc...wheras, say, people calling me “sir” or otherwise treating me as higher-status at work makes me extremely uncomfortable. So do compliments from normals in general.
[Edit: “Status granted by a tribe I don’t identify with feels like a status hit instead” might be a good way to put it.]
Well, why would I care what status people who don’t regularly non-trivially interact with me assign to me?
Same here, but I think the main reason for that is that it makes me feel ‘old’. (Teenagers and people in the early twenties aren’t usually treated that way (no matter how cool they are in the eyes in their peers), and I don’t exactly revel in being reminded that I’m no longer one.) ETA: I do like the fact that I’m now economically independent, though.
(Edited to add scare quotes around “old”, lest thirtysomethings resent me, as they usually do when I say I feel old.)
It is totally okay to want social power and respect. You want social power and respect. If you believe that you don’t want social power and respect, then you will be motivated to lie to yourself about the actual causes of your actions.
“better” according to whom? The only one who can set a different standard for yourself is yourself, yet if you already do have that “dangerous intrinsic goal”, then, well, you already do have that goal (yay tautology). You can weigh it against other goals and duly modify it, but presumably if other goals outweighed your need to dominate, that would already have happened. Since it has not (for those who have that goal), that is reason to surmise that from the point of view of those agents there isn’t in fact anything better to do, even if they’d like to think that they think there was.
Not if it is, in fact, your intrinsic goal!
Of course there are occasions where having goals makes it less likely to actualize them, and so incentives exist roughly isomorphic to the ones which collapse CDT to TDT. The advice in How To Win Friends and Influence People is of this type—it advises you that in order to achieve social dominance and manipulate others you should become genuinely interested in them. But this is orthogonal to mindkilling.
Then maybe this is a deontological question rather than an ontological one. I would very much appreciate any help understanding why people seek to dominate other potential agents as an intrinsic goal.
If I was particularly interested in the question why people have the terminal values they have, I’d look into evolutionary psychology (start from Thou Art Godshatter) -- but if one doesn’t clearly keep in mind the evolutionary-cognitive boundary, or the is-ought distinction (committing the naturalistic fallacy), then one will risk being mind-killed by evo-psy (in a way similar to this—witness the dicks on the Internet who use evo-psy as a weapon against feminism), and if one does keep these distinctions in mind, then that question may become much less interesting.
meta: I find it interesting that your post got voted down.
I didn’t downvote but I was ambivalent. The main point was good but that was offset by the unnecessary inflammatory crap that was tacked on.
What was inflammatory? Also: I find it wryly interesting that a post with a good point and informative links would be judged inflammatory in an article about not getting offended.
I insulted anti-feminist amateur evolutionary psychologists.
;-)
(Actually, I hadn’t noticed that, but that’s a great reason (excuse?) to not edit my comment.)
I think both you and ialdabaoth have missed the point of the post. It is definitely not an invitation to be more inflammatory. It encourages not taking offense because taking offense has negative side effects. To the extent those side effects matter provoking them in others would also seem undesirable.
What do you mean “use as a weapon against” and why is it obviously a bad thing? Would you say it’s a fair complaint against EY that he uses Bayesianism as a “weapon against” religion?
I believe what army means is that some people mistakenly use evo-psy to make claims along the lines of “we have evolved to have [some characteristic], therefore it is morally right for us to have [aforementioned characteristic]”.
I’d add that many people appear to exercise motivated cognition in their use of ev-psych explanations; they want to justify a particular conclusion, so they write the bottom line and craft an argument from evolutionary psychology to work their way down to it. Although it would be hard for me to recall a precise example off the top of my head, I’ve certainly seen cases where people used evolutionary just-so stories to justify a sexual status quo, where I could easily see ways that the argument could have led to a completely different conclusion.
It’s not evolutionary psychology so much, but I’ve seen quite a volume of evolutionary just-so stories in the field of diet and nutrition: everyone from raw vegans to proponents of diets based on meat and animal fats seems eager to justify their findings by reference to the EEA. Generally, the more vegetarian a diet, the more its proponents will focus on our living hominid relatives; the more carnivorous, the more the focus is on the recent evolutionary environment.
Which aren’t exactly vegetarian.
Which serves as a reminder that those who tend to craft evolutionary arguments are not only those who can do so accurately.
Remember, it all adds up to normality. Thus we should not be surprised that the conclusion of evo-psych agree with the traditional ideas.
When people claim that they’re final argument tends to be a lot less convincing and involve a lot more mental gymnastics than the original.
We should expect a perfected biology to predict our cultural data, not to agree with our cultural beliefs. ‘Normality’ doesn’t mean our expectations. ‘Normality’ doesn’t mean common sense or folk wisdom. It means our actual experiences. See Living in Many Worlds.
How strong is that tendency? Try to quantify it. Then test the explanations where possible, after writing down your prediction. Did the first get an unfair advantage from status quo bias? Did the rivals seem gerrymandered and inelegant because reality is complicated? Did any of the theories tend to turn out to be correct?
Actually, yes it does. The results of the theory should agree with our common sense and folk wisdom when dealing with situations on ordinary human scales (or whatever the appropriate analog of “ordinary human scales” is).
You’re making two claims here. First, you’re making a substantive claim about the general reliability of human intuitions and cultural institutions when it comes to the human realm. Second, you’re making a semantic claim about what ‘It all adds up to normality’ means.
The former doctrine would be extremely difficult to substantiate. What evidence do you have to back it up? And the latter claim is clearly not right in any sense this community uses the term, as the LW posts about Egan’s Law speak of the recreation of the ordinary world of perception, not of the confirmation of folk wisdom or tradition. The LessWrong Wiki explicitly speaks of normality as ‘observed reality’, not as our body of folk theory. Which is a good thing, since otherwise Egan’s Law would directly contradict the principle “Think Like Reality”:
“Quantum physics is not “weird”. You are weird. You have the absolutely bizarre idea that reality ought to consist of little billiard balls bopping around, when in fact reality is a perfectly normal cloud of complex amplitude in configuration space. This is your problem, not reality’s, and you are the one who needs to change.
“Human intuitions were produced by evolution and evolution is a hack.”
Indeed, I would say that this claim, that our natural intuitions and common sense and folk wisdom and traditions are wont to be systematically mistaken, is one of the most foundational LessWrong claims. It lies at the very core of the utility of the heuristics/biases literature, which is a laundry list of ways we systematically misconstrue or imperfectly construe the truth. LessWrong is about not trusting your intuitions and cultural traditions (except where they have already been independently confirmed, or where the cost of investigating them exceeds the expected benefit of bothering to confirm them—and in neither case is this concession an affirmation of any intrinsic trustworthiness on the part of ‘common sense’ or ‘intuition’ or ‘folk wisdom’ or ‘tradition’).
It is true that common sense comes from somewhere, and that the existence of intuitions and cultural assumptions is a part of ‘normality’, is part of what a theory must ultimately account for and predict. But the truth of those beliefs is not a part of ‘normality’, is not a part of the data, the explanandum. They may or may not turn out to be correct; but there is no Bayesian reason to think that they must turn out right in the end, or even that they must turn out to at all resemble the right answer.
First let me repeat part of my comment with the phrase you seem to have missed in bold:
In particular had Newton claimed that apples fall up, that would have been reason to reject his theory.
That nevertheless works, and frequently works better than what our System II (conscious reasoning)-based theories can do. And remember our conscious reasoning is itself also a product of evolution.
A program to compute the area of a circle that uses pi=3.14 will be systematically mistaken, it is also likely to be sufficiently close for all practical purposes.
Your intuitions and cultural traditions are evidence. As for possessing “intrinsic trustworthiness” I have no idea what you mean by that phrase.
There is a Bayesian reason to think that our intuitions will in most cases resemble the right answer, at least in the sense that GR resembles Newtonian mechanics.
But this just isn’t so. Humans get things wrong about the human realm all the time, make false generalizations and trust deeply erroneous intuitions and aphorisms every day of their lives. ‘It all adds up to normality’ places a hard constraint on all reasonable theories: They must reproduce exactly the data of ordinary life. In contrast, what you mean by ‘It all adds up to normality’ seems to be more like ‘Our naive beliefs are generally right!’ The former claim is The Law (specifically, Egan’s Law); the latter is a bit of statistical speculation, seems in tension with the historical record and the contemporary psychology literature, and even if not initially implausible would still need a lot of support before it could be treated as established Fact. So conflating these two claims is singularly dangerous and misleading.
You’re conflating three different claims.
Egan’s Law: The correct model of the world must yield the actual data/evidence we observe.
We should generally expect our traditions, intuitions, and folk theories to be correct in their human-scale claims.
Our biases are severe, but not cripplingly so, and they are quite handy given our evolutionary history and resource constraints.
‘It all adds up to normality’ means 1, not 2. And the claim I was criticizing is 2, not 3 (the one you’re now defending).
The evidence shows that in a great many cases, our intuitions and traditions aren’t just useful approximations of the truth, like Newtonian physics; they’re completely off-base. A lot of folk wisdom asserts just the opposite of the truth, not only about metaphysics but about ordinary human history, psychology, and society. So if ‘it all adds up to normality’ means ‘it all (in the human realm) confirms our folk expectations and intuitions’, then ‘it all adds up to normality’ is false. (But, as noted, this isn’t what ‘normality’ means here.)
Sure, they’re evidence; but they’re not very strong evidence, without external support. And they’re data; but the data in question is that something is intuitive, not that the intuition itself is correct. The claims made by our scientifically uncultivated intuitions and culture are just models like any other, and can be confirmed or disconfirmed like any scientific model, no matter how down-to-earth and human-scaled they are. They do not have the special status of ‘normality’ assigned to the data—data, not theory—of everyday life, that Egan’s Law draws our attention to.
When Newton(?) claimed that objects of different mass but negligible air friction fell at the same rate, that theory was rejected.
Copernicus.
Natural intuitions, common sense, and folk wisdom have consistently shown that they cannot identify a theory which explains the actual observations better than they can.
Common sense and folk wisdom say that has changed, and we will now accept a new, more correct theory without challenging it.
So the Aztec add up to normal? Because I’m not seeing how a culture that thought human sacrifice was a virtue has much folk wisdom in common with the modern era.
Why was this down-voted? This is an on-point and sane response. If ‘normality’ is defined as tradition, then history should be a sequence of confirmations of past traditions and common sense (e.g., the common sense claim that the Earth is stationary and the Sun goes around it), as opposed to disconfirming our beliefs and providing alternative explanations of our perceptual data. The epistemic disagreement between cultures, and the epistemic change within cultures, both refute this idea.
‘It all adds up to normality’ in the original sense of ‘The right theory must predict our ordinary experience’ is a correct generalization 100% of the time. (It’s The Law.) ‘It all adds up to normality’ in Eugine’s sense of ‘The right theory must agree with folk wisdom, common sense, and traditional doctrine’ is a generalization that, historically, has almost never been right strictly, and has only sometimes been right approximately.
Well, I didn’t downvote, but saying the Aztecs viewed human sacrifice as a virtue is at best an oversimplification. They sacrificed a lot of people and believed they were virtuous in doing so, but my understanding is that sacrifice within the Aztec belief system was instrumental to worship, not virtuous in itself; you wouldn’t be lauded for sacrificing your neighbor to Homer Simpson, only for sacrifices serving established religious goals.
The broader point, though, seems to be that the appeal to societal normality equally well justifies norms that call for (e.g.) sacrificing children to the rain god Tlaloc, if sufficiently entrenched. That logic seems sound to me.
I think it would be missing Tim’s point to suppose that he’s ascribing some sort of quasi-Kantian value-in-itself to Aztec meta-ethics, when all he seems to be noting is that the Aztecs got torture wrong. If you want to reserve ‘virtue’ for a more specific idea and historically bound idea in Western ethics, I doubt he’d mind your paraphrasing his point in your preferred idiom. It takes a pretty wild imagination to read Tim’s comment and think he’s saying that the Aztecs considered human sacrifice a summum bonum or unconditionally and in-all-contexts good. That’s just not what the conversation is about.
Yeah, you’re right.
Given the way they ran their empire, it would probably have collapsed without the intimidation factor that human sacrifice provided.
If we take as given that a nonspecific criminal act against a specific-but-not-here-identified person is required to sustain an empire, does that mean that drone strikes have virtue?
(Vague and awkward phrasing to avoid discussing a violent act against an identifiable person) (Note the hypothetical statement; in the least convenient world that statement is provably true)
I never said anything about virtue, merely about cause and effect.
How is that consistent with the Aztec adding up to ‘normal’ as used upthread?
I’m not sure I understand quite what this means.
To clarify: if at a given time common sense and folk wisdom are understood to predict a result R1 from experiment E where E involves a situation on ordinary human scales (or some appropriate analog), and at some later time E is performed and gives result R2 instead, would you consider that state of affairs consistent with the rule “the results of the theory should agree with our common sense and folk wisdom”, or in conflict with it?
If my observations are unreliable, I should not expect more rigorous study of the subject to confirm my observations.
Yes; OTOH, if you can already guess in which direction your observations will be moved by more rigorous study, you should move them already.
Not quite true. Say I have a d100 and I have two hypotheses—it is either fair or it is biased to roll ’87′ twice as often as any other number. I can already guess that my observation from rolling the die once will move me in the direction of believing the die is fair (ie. I can reliably guess that I will roll any number except 87). However, if I do happen to roll an 87 then I will update towards ‘biased’ to a greater degree.
It isn’t the direction of the expected evidence that is conserved. It’s the expectation (the directions of all the possibilities multiplied by their respective degrees).
Yup. There is, of course, potentially a big difference between how confident I am that my position will change, and how confident I am that my position will change in some specific direction.
The problem is that adding up to normality, while necessary, is not sufficient. It’s possible to explain the sexual status quo by appealing to patriarchy, sexism and institutionalized male privilege just as easy as by appealing to evo-psych. Any number of mutually-inconsistant theories can each indivually add up to normality; adding up to normality by itself does not tell us which theory is right.
I never said it was sufficient. One common criticism of evolutionary psychology is that “it justifies the sexual status quo”, my point is that this criticism doesn’t hold water.
Not if the “traditional ideas” don’t necessarily reflect how things have been done for much of human history. Some of the gender norms people support with such arguments are genuine human universals, many others are not.
I’ve known people to make evo-psych arguments justifying a sexual status quo which were implausible or even refuted by known anthropology. I think you’re assuming a higher baseline level of credibility among people who ascribe to your own position than is actually the case.
Because anthropology is not at all full of people doing shoddy work and using it to justify pre-concieved beliefs. <\sarcasm>
Edit: added link to Gene Expression.
Right. Many armchair evolutionary psychologists don’t understand the nature of the evolutionary-cognitive boundary.
What I’ve seen tends to be more like, “we have evolved to have [some characteristic], asserting a deontological duty not to have [aforementioned characteristic] is not a good idea”.
I didn’t mean that using a theory as weapon against (i.e., in orter to argue against) a different theory is always obviously a bad thing; in particular, I don’t think that using Bayesianism to argue against religion is bad (so long as you don’t outright insult religious people or similar). But in this particular case, evo-psy is a descriptive theory, feminism is a normative theory, and you cannot derive “ought” from “is” without some meta-ethics, so if someone’s using evo-psy to argue against feminism there’s likely something wrong. (The other replies you’ve got put it better than I could.)
Feminists frequently make “is” assertions, and justify their “ought” assertions on the basis of said “is” assertions.
In any case, you seem to be arguing that feminism will now be joining religion in the trying to survive by claiming to be non-refutable club.
They do, but their “is” assertions are stuff like “women have historically (i.e. in the last several millennia) been, and to a certain extent still are, oppressed by men”, which aren’t actually contradicted by evolutionary psychology, which says stuff like “humans are X because, in the last several hundred millennia, X-er apes have had more offspring in average”. (And the “ought” assertions they justify based on “is” assertions are stuff like “we’re further south than where we want to be, so we ought to move northwards”; IOW, they’re justifying instrumental values, not terminal values.)
That wasn’t my intention, but at the moment I can’t think of a good way to edit my comment to make it clearer.
Another typical feminist claim is “differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization”. This is, as you’d imagine, the kind of claim that is easily subject to falsification by evolutionary psychology. The related normative claim that “we ought to socialize boys and girls as androgynously as possible”, becomes challenged by the evolutionary psychology claim that “we ought to socialize boys and girls in ways that take into account their inherent differences.
I expect claim C1: “for all differences D between the behavior of boys and girls, D is due solely to socialization” is false, and I expect claim C2: “there exist differences D between the behavior of boys and girls such that D is due solely to socialization” is true.
I expect claim C3: “differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization” to generate more heat than light, by virtue of being ambiguous between C1 and C2.
If I assume by C3 you mean C1… I expect the claim C4: “there are people who would assert C1, and that the vast majority of such people self-label as feminist” is true, and I expect the claim C5: “the majority of people who self-label as feminist would assert C1″ is false.
I expect the claim C6: “‘differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization’ is a typical feminist claim” to shed more heat than light, by virtue of being ambiguous between C4 and C5.
I suspect that many of the feminists who are willing to admit C1 is technically false will insist it applies to the particular D under discussion. In any case, claims of the form C1(D) “the difference D between boys and girls is due solely to socialization” work just as well for my point.
I suppose now you’ll claim that most feminists never really believed that the differences in question where solely due to socialization, and this discussion will develop a tone similar to that of debating a theist who gradually dials down what his religion actually claims.
Out of curiosity, Eugine, what sort of background do you have with feminism, feminists, feminist texts, etc.? Many feminists define feminism as ‘gender egalitarianism’, ‘activism for gender equality’, or ‘activism for gender equality plus belief that women are disproportionately disadvantaged by current sociocultural norms relative to men’. How would you define ‘feminism’? What is your view of the importance of specifically anti-sexist intervention and memecraft, and/or on the prevalence of harmful or overapplied gender schemas? I want to get a clearer idea on the background and aims you’re bringing to this conversation, rather than skirting around the heart of the matter.
Feminism has two common definitions
1) Someone who believes in equality of opportunity for women.
2) Someone who accepts the results of feminist critical theory.
A lot of feminists tend to play bait-and-switch games with the above two definitions. In this context I mean something closer to (2).
… Not quite. I’d say that the first definition is somewhat uncontroversial (People opposing it usually deny the continued existence of the problem rather than denying the feminists desire, reactionaries excluded) and the second may be mis-named and is extremely fragmentary with a whole bunch of different schools of thought, a few of which have thin coatings of anti-epistemology.
What would count as evidence that a particular behavior was caused solely by socialization? I’ll admit that evidence of sex-linked behavior among non-human primates is evidence that the similar behavior in humans is sex-linked. But before we start talking about proof, we need to agree what sorts of things count as evidence.
There are many behavior differences that cannot be explained solely on the basis of socialization. The most obvious is that women generally sit to pee, while men generally do not. Or we could look to some pregnancy related behavior that is not performed by men since they generally don’t get pregnant.
Likewise, there are some behaviors that we have strong reason to believe are pure socialization. For example, male preference for blue and female preference for pink is less than a century old.
I think you just answered your own question.
But if I pick a more controversial example from history, shouldn’t I predict that you will blow off that evidence by saying something sarcastic like: Because anthropology is not at all full of people doing shoddy work and using it to justify pre-concieved beliefs. <\sarcasm>.
In short, a reasoned discussion needs a more concrete rule for what counts as evidence than “I know it when I see it.”
Something that is more likely to occur if the theory is true than if it is false. (Given the current state of cultural anthropology, this doesn’t include the writing of modern cultural anthropologists.) As for what an appropriate filter to use in this context is, analogous to the filter of scientific evidence used in the hard sciences, I’m not sure. This is itself a hard problem, which probably deserves to be discussed somewhere more prominent than below the fold on a week old thread.
I read that second link, and I am confused. He criticizes cultural anthropolgy for using concepts he believes are politically infected. On of his examples is “heteronormativity.” As I understand that word, it means something like:
I understand if you don’t think that type of social pressure is bad, but do you deny it exists? What should we call it?
Khan’s complaint is that “heteronormativity” is used as a boo light, just like the other words on his list: “Privilege. Oppression. Colonialism. Patriarchy.”
Yes, he thinks heteronormativity is fine. I don’t.
I asked you if it occurs, not if you disapprove of the phenomena of heteronormtivity.
Because if it occurs, then your argument that anthropology is unconnected to reality needs a better justification. Biased != unconnected with reality. Even biased evidence should have the potential to change a Bayesian reasoner’s probability estimate in the direction that the producer of the evidence suggests.
I mean boo light in the technical LW sense. I don’t know whether Khan approves of heteronormtivity, I’m more sure he doesn’t approve of oppression, which is in the same list.
I’d add that ‘heteronormativity’ and the other words on the list are also sometimes used as spammable boo lights, sometimes leading to rather word-salad-like philosophies of condemnation, and that ‘privilege’ sometimes (but usually does not) forms part of an anti-epistemology.
I’d also add that specifically ‘colonialism’ and ‘patriarchy’ (also ‘capitalism’ when used as a quasi-boo-light) are occasionally treated as almost Platonic properties attached to society at large that automatically color every interaction, even among people who should be able to resist their influence or do not have a concrete reason to care.
That said, I think that all of these things have a very real meaningful existence and all of them are, usually, actually bad.
I think it’s pretty dangerous to describe terms from other fields of study as merely being applause or boo lights. Consider how frequently LW-newbies use “rational” as an applause light until corrected by others. Instead of taking terms from other fields as merely being applause or boo lights, we should consider that the terms might be frequently misused by novices or in popular culture, in just the same way that terms like “rational” or “rationalist” are. (TVTropes link.)
Take “privilege”, for instance.
It seems to be widely assumed that when social critics or activists attribute “privilege” to someone, that they are calling that person evil, arrogant, irresponsible, or something of the like. Because “privilege” is used in sentences that are spoken angrily, it is taken to be not merely a boo light but something akin to a swear word. And indeed it is sometimes used that way, because, well, people get angry sometimes when discussing starvation, rape, police brutality, and other things that activists talk about.
“Privilege” has a pretty specific meaning though. It means “social advantages that are not perceived as advantages but as the normal condition”. In other words: Some people have X, while others don’t; and those who do have X think that having X is unremarkable and normal.
To make up an artificial example:
Suppose that there are blue weasels and red weasels working in an office. For whatever reason, blue weasels are comfortable in a temperature range of 18–28C, while red weasels are comfortable in 22–32C. The office thermostat is set to “room temperature”, the normal temperature, of 20C. So the red weasels are always cold and have to buy expensive sweaters (at their own expense) to avoid shivering, while blue weasels frolic about in the nude.
When anyweasel proposes turning up the heat, they are reminded that running the heater is expensive and that 20C is the established normal room temperature — it even says so on the Wikipedia article “room temperature”! That some weasels complain about the cold and how expensive sweaters are is their own problem — maybe if they frolicked about in the nude more, they would feel better? Besides, if we started turning up the heat, before too long it would be much too hot for anyweasel! 20C is normal, and if some weasels are unhappy with that, well, that’s actually fortunate for the sweater-knitters, isn’t it?
Note that noweasel is doing any cost-benefit analysis here — and they also aren’t really treating all weasels’ interests as equally worthwhile. They’re just assuming that being cold is a fact about red weasels’ deviation from the temperature sense that they should possess (a normative claim targeted at the underprivileged), as opposed to being about the differences between red and blue weasels and the historical control of the thermostat by certain blue weasels (a descriptive claim about the history and structure of weasel society).
Not only does the temperature setting of 20C advantage some weasels over others, but the way that weasels talk about temperature — the discourse — contains assumptions about what is normal that advantage some weasels over others.
It is perhaps worth noting that the word “status” often gets used on LW to describe position in a social structure, with the understanding that individuals with higher status get various benefits (not always obvious ones), and that a lot of human behavior is designed to obtain/challenge/protect status even if the individual performing the behavior doesn’t consciously have that goal. I suspect that talking about the blue weasels as a high-status subgroup would not raise any eyebrows here, and would imply all the patterns you discuss here, even if talking about the “privilege” possessed by blue weasels raised hackles.
Somewhat to my amusement, I’ve gotten chastised for talking about status this way in communities of social activists, who “explained” to me that I was actually talking about privilege, and referring to it as status trivialized it.
When in Rome, I endorse speaking Italian.
That’s an interesting complaint. It suggests that we might understand and talk about social organization in ways that’re denotationally familiar to these communities of social activists, whoever they are, but that certain connotations are customary in that space that aren’t customary here.
As others have noted I don’t think status is all that good a term for what’s going on in the weasel example, but insofar as our understanding of status does overlap with the activist scene’s understanding of privilege, I think this is a good argument for preferring our own framing. At least unless and until we can decide that we actually want those connotations.
I might object since this is an abuse of the concept of status. Status is about how a person is thought of by other people. It is not about who happens to benefit from an established Schelling point, especially if the group benefiting had nothing to do with establishing it.
I’m assuming it’s acceptable to treat weasels as “people” in this example. Can you clarify how, on your account, the way red weasels in this example are thought of by other weasels differs (or doesn’t differ) from the way blue weasels are thought of?
I don’t know, i.e., it’s not at all clear from the example, and that’s my point. Analyzing the example in terms of status doesn’t work.
OK; thanks for the clarification.
It seems clear to me, for example, that red weasels are thought of in the example as possessing an abnormal temperature sense, and blue weasels are thought of as possessing a normal temperature sense. Would you disagree with this?
Well fubarobfusco stipulated they are and it’s his hypothetical situation. Aside from that, I’m not sure what you’re asking.
As I mentioned here, I’d analyze the weasel example in terms of Schelling points. As fubarobfusco referred to the weasels using standard room temperature and citing Wikipedia, I assume the weasels chose their Schelling point based on human norms, most likely they’ve adopted any human norms wholesale in an attempt to emulate the successful human civilization. I realize I’ve just massively expended fubarobfusco’s hypothetical, but that’s the thing about Schelling points, they can make irrelevant aspects of the scenario relevant.
Yes, I agree that in fubarobfusco’s presentation of his hypothetical situation, the red red weasels are thought of in the example as possessing an abnormal temperature sense, and blue weasels are thought of as possessing a normal temperature sense. Which is why fubarobfusco’s presentation of his hypothetical situation seems to me to clearly provide enough information to determine at least some ways in which red weasels are thought of by other weasels differently from the way blue weasels are thought of. Which is why I was puzzled when you claimed fubarobfusco’s presentation didn’t provide enough information to determine that.
Hope that clarifies what I was asking. No further answer is required, though; I think I’ve gotten enough of a response.
WRT Schelling points, if properly understanding your analysis depends on reading Strategy of Conflict, I’ll defer further discussion until I’ve done so. Thanks for the pointer.
I assumed the hypothetical took place in a world only populated by weasels, where Wikipedia was written by weasels, and the room temperature article ultimately reflected the historical thermostat setting standard set by blue weasels.
“Privilege” has two disadvantages vis-à-vis “status”, though. First, it suggests a binary distinction—privilege or no privilege -, as opposed to degrees of status. Second, status can be acquired, while the way I hear “privilege” used seems to exclude that.
Folks who use “privilege” as part of their usual vocabulary often note that people can have (and lack) different sorts of privilege, actually — for instance, racial, religious, or heterosexual privilege — that these are not projected onto a single dimension.
Yes, the usual term for this is “intersectionality,” but I have yet to see a good theory of how intersectionality actually works, that does not consist mainly of just repeating the word (as a teacher’s password).
Status does seem like a superior conceptual tool, for the reasons Creutzer cited. (It helps explain why, say, football players may have obvious ‘privilege’ only in certain situations and with certain people, and may actually be underprivileged in other situations.)
The only thing it is lacking is a widespread understanding & terminology to reflect the fact that people (especially high-status people) are often oblivious to status differentials & treat them as basic features of the universe.
I’m not sure about that, in my experience it’s low status people who are more likely to treat status differentials as basic features of the universe. High status people seem to be more aware of status, as indicated by how much effort they put into fighting for it (mostly against other high status people).
Not sure. That may start to tie into Moldbug’s Cathedral a bit?
Alternatively, you may be ignoring the full scale. I’d say that the people most likely to ignore status or just consider it basic are those who are secure in their own status.
I didn’t say low status people ignore status, rather they tend to treat it as basic features of the universe, specifically I was referring to existentialism in this sense.
As far I can tell, intersectionality is just the observation that if A is worse than Ā and E is worse than Ē, then AE is usually worse than ĀE and AĒ. Which of course isn’t always the case.
EDIT: IOW, intersectionality is the idea that this remotely makes sense.
Thinking about it I think the biggest problem with “intersectionality” and the concept of “privilege” in general is that it groups together many differences that actually have very little else in common and encourages people to apply ideas appropriate to one of these categories to others where they are frequently wildly inappropriate. To take three examples from the chart that are in some sense maximally different consider race, religion, and disability.
Race is an innate property that controversially correlates with certain abilities and behaviors. Disability is an innate property (or practical purposes at least) that perfectly and inherently correlates with ability. One way to see the difference between the two is to notice that a procedure that makes a blind person sighted is an unalloyed good that would more-or-less completely solve the problem, whereas a procedure that turns a black person’s skin white doesn’t solve any of the relevant problems.
Religion is a choice (subject to the person’s tradition). While there are in fact to reasons to avoid discriminating by religion except when its directly relevant they are somewhat different from the reasons for the other traits.
I agree with almost everything, but:
For some value of “choice” and “subject”, it is… OTOH, I think (though I’m extrapolating like hell, so I’m not very confident) that many fewer people convert to a different religion than dye their hair (at least among females), and still saying “hair colour is a choice (subject to the person’s genome)” would sound kind-of weird to me.
I frequently hear “privilege” used in ways that allow for it to be acquired or lost, and I frequently hear it used in ways that allow for different groups to have more or less privilege relative to one another (that is, degrees of privilege). But I’m willing to believe that other linguistic communities exist that behave as you describe.
Remember, just because people are using a term incorrectly does not mean that the term does not represent something empirically useful. In this case, the nuance between “Status” and “Privilege” is that “Privilege” is a special kind of status; it is status acquired based on group identity. There’s an entire branch of study called “Intersectionality” that touches precisely on the ideas that ‘privilege’ exists in degrees, can be gained and lost, and is often situational. Even there, though, there’s a lot of BS and politicking.
But remember that that doesn’t invalidate the usefulness of the concept, any more than “just-so stories” and BS justifications invalidate evolutionary psychology as a discipline. Intersectionality is clearly a fruitful area for cultural research that is in desperate need of a rationalist approach.
Mostly agreed.
Intersectionality does need better rationalism. I’d add that some intersectioanlity has the drawback of fighting a War On Keeping Your Identity Small, and in many cases, when activist groups dedicated to a single purpose absorb the idea of intersectionality, they rapidly assimilate into the the greater Social Justice Bloc, with all the positives and all the negatives that entails. Furthermore, intersectionality sometimes appears to stand against utilitarian strict optimization.
Yes, one thing that bothers me about social justice folks is that they sometimes sound very essentialist (“they assume a homeless white man is more privileged than Oprah Winfrey”, as I’ve seen someone put it).
They do have their explanation there. The essentialim I have noticed usually comes from radical feminism (which is often taken to mean ‘extremist feminism’ but while nearly all radical feminists are extremist, the term when used by radical feminists actually refers to a specific and rather essentialist + one sided view of gender relations).
They have a tendancy to conceptualize patriarchy as a diffuse property of society that colors everything that even slightly involves gender, and tend to be unwilling to slice it up into its component parts. They also tend to ignore how immense the possible gender-relations-space is outside patriarchy/!patriarchy.
The thing I find most frustrating is how learning about intersectionality leads to groups being assimilated by the Equality Borg. It’s almost like an infohazard for progressives.
I would like to point out that you’ve just swapped the definition of “privilege” from the one fubarobfusco gave to the one I mentioned in this comment.
Yup, agreed with all of this. (Not sure if you thought otherwise.)
For a while now, this has been my number-one example of a word that’s useful to taboo. Since the definition is that succinct, and the word “privilege” has a tendency to derail what could have been a good conversation, we’re probably better off simply not using the word.
That makes sense to me — but only for reasons analogous to why one might want to taboo “rationality”, namely that it’s easy to be misunderstood since the listener has heard lots of low-information uses of the word.
Still, if I were to tell someone else that they have to taboo their field’s terminology — and start speaking in novel (albeit succinct) synonyms — in order to convince me that they’re not simply emitting applause or boo lights, that would seem like a hostile move on my part. I’d be telling them that they have to take on the cognitive load of translating from their usual language (with words like “privilege” and “heteronormativity”) into a language that I’ve deigned to accept (with words like “misnormalized advantages” or “opposite-sex assumptions”).
Yeah, pretty much this.
When communication seems to be failing, my instinct is to taboo my own communication-disrupting language and adopt my interlocutor’s language instead. When I don’t understand my interlocutor’s language well enough to adopt it, my instinct is to ask questions about it. When communication has failed so thoroughly that I can’t ask such questions and understand the answers, I pretty much give up.
It seems like a lot of people don’t do this. I wonder why? It seems common for people to resist adopting any of the other party’s terminology. Some possible explanations:
I’m mistaken. It’s actually rare for people to resist adopting the other party’s terminology — I’m just exercising the availability heuristic.
This is like speciation. The cases where people don’t adopt the other’s terminology are those where it’s advantageous (to whom?) to pick one side of a language barrier (and defend it) instead of mixing. When that isn’t the case, people already have mixed their terminology — invisibly.
It’s a way of pushing cognitive costs around as a primate status fight — “I’m too important to bother to understand you; you have to understand me.” (In the extreme case this would lead to the creation of low-status roles that specialize in understanding without expecting to be understood. Do those exist? Some wag would probably say “wife” or “husband”, ha ha.)
It’s a way of defining and defending territories — “Yes, you get to insist on your language in that magisterium, and I get to insist on mine in this one.” (This seems to be more what goes on in academia than #3.)
People are ignorant of the benefits of understanding one another. Only awesome people like you and I have figured out that understanding other people is awesome. (This seems really unlikely, but it seems to be the premise of some schools of communication improvement.)
People are afraid that if they started using the other party’s language they would mess up their command of their current language. (Economists can’t afford to learn to talk like cultural anthropologists because they might slip up and use anthro-jargon in front of their economist buddies and seem ignorant of economics jargon.)
People are afraid that if they started using the other party’s language they would become disloyal to their current affiliations. (Economists can’t afford to learn to talk like cultural anthropologists because they might become convinced cultural anthropology is right and would lose all their economist buddies.)
… ?
In my experience, they’re called “employees”.
9. Language carries with it many framings, assumptions, associations, and implicit value judgments (see: The Noncentral Fallacy). Letting the other side set the language lets them shape the playing field, which gives them a large home field advantage.
10. People are cognitive misers who mostly rely on cached thoughts. For example, the arguments that they make are arguments that they’ve thought about before, not ones that they’re thinking up on the spot. And their thoughts are cached in their own language, not the other party’s language. (Related to #3, but it’s not about status.)
/#1 might certainly be true, but if so it’s true of both of us; it seems common to me as well.
I agree with you about #3 and #4, though I mostly think of #4 as a special case of #3.
I find #5 unlikely, but if we’re going to list it, we should also note the symmetrical possibility that you and I overestimate the benefits of understanding one another.
A variant of #7 is that using the other party’s language is seen as a signal of alliance with the other party’s tribe, which might cost them alliances with their own tribe… e.g., even if the economist isn’t convinced of cultural anthropology, their economist buddies might think they are. (Which arguably is just another special case of #3.)
As long as we’re listing lots of possibilities, I would add #8: They believe their language is superior to their interlocutor’s language, and that the benefits of using superior language exceed the benefits of using shared language.
And, relatedly. #8b: Behaving as though they believe #8 signals the superiority of their language (and more generally of their thinking). Which arguably is just another special case of #3.
I see the difference between #8 and #3 being that using superior language might be positive-sum in the long run, whereas pushing cognitive costs onto someone else is zero- or negative-sum.
I suppose. That said, if your thinking is superior to mine then you gaining status relative to me (whether through cognitive-cost-pushing as in #3, or through some other status-claiming move) might be positive-sum in the long run as well. Regardless, I agree that #8 is distinct from #3.
I should also note that the strategy I describe often fails when people interpret my questions about their language as veiled counterarguments, which they then attempt to decipher and respond to. Since my questions aren’t actually counterarguments, this frequently causes the discussion to fall apart into incoherence, since whatever counterargument they infer and respond to often seems utterly arbitrary to me.
It’s not surprising that people do this, since people do often use questions as a form of veiled counterargument.
I don’t think “understanding without expecting to be understood” is quite it, but there are a number of relatively low-status roles, in domains with specialized vocabularies, whose job is basically to act as a translation layer between specialist output and the general public. Tech support is the obvious example. In medicine, family practice seems to have shades of this, and it’s low-status compared to the specialties. Grad students sometimes pick this up in their TA role. I’m not sure if anything similar happens in law.
(Continuing Unnamed’s list)
11. They suspect (perhaps correctly) that the other side’s terminology has anti-epistemology embedded within it.
11*. Each party suspects this (perhaps correctly) of the other.
(This is the same but with the usual ethical symmetry assumption that the other is at least in theory capable of occupying the same position towards us that we occupy towards them.)
Is that not a special case of #8?
Would you be willing to do this in a discussion with say a theologian or a creationist?
Sure. I’ve done the former many times, the latter a few times.
I’ve occasionally been given definitions of “privilege” by activists, and each time the definition is different. A more common one is “an unfair advantage that people have by virtue of being in certain groups”.
You’re right, and both definitions tend to be used interchangeably. I’ll work on correcting that in my own speech, but I think in the meantime here’s the essence of it:
Privilege is a phenomenon that occurs as the result of a special kind of status, but the term also gets used to describe the form of status that generates the phenomenon.
When a status based on group identity is pervasive enough to be invisible to members of that group, the resulting assumptions lead to a set of behavior called “privilege”. It’s probably even clearer to use the term “privileged status” than mere “privilege”, when talking about the status itself rather than the resulting behaviors; I’m going to try using that myself for the next few weeks and see if I can anchor some critical self-analysis to the process.
That still doesn’t work since the weasel example involves “privilege” in fubarobfusco’s sense but as I pointed out here doesn’t actually involve status.
Upvoted for pretty good description, and I agree that all of these are actually usually used in a meaningful (if not optimal) way.
It might be added that in some privilege cases, the experience of not having the privilege is totally alien and leads to things like lonely men envying sexual harassment.
By the way, if you’re interested in what I consider a better analysis of your weasel example, I recommend looking at Thomas C. Schelling’s Strategy of Conflict, particularly chapter 3. (I don’t think I can do justice to his analysis in this comment.)
Is that about something similar to these posts?
For small values of similar I suppose.
What reaction do you expect to get by pre-emptively putting words in my mouth with this kind of a sneering tone? Because my reaction is to immediately lose all interest in further discussion with you.
If that was the reaction you expected, then you’re successfully predicting the results of your behavior, which is great.
If that wasn’t the reaction you expected, then I hope this helps you calibrate your behavior better in the future.
Tapping out; downvoting.
I don’t mean to criticize you choice here, because you certainly are entitled to set your own boundaries.
But I want to note for any readers of this thread that this is what evaporative cooling of group beliefs can look like on a particular topic.
What group belief does my comment illustrate the evaporative cooling of?
There is dispute in this community (and society as a whole) about whether anything is wrong with gender dynamics, and how to talk about making changes.
Eugine has a fairly hostile position to the current methods of talking about what needs changing. You have a less hostile position to those methods. If he’s the only person who talks about this topic in this venue, he gets to control this venue’s position on reflexive examination of social norms, by moving the position towards more extreme hostility.
I’m not opposed to reflexive examination of social norms, although I do believe it should be done carefully. My objection is to the methods you seem to prefer for examining social norms don’t correspond to reality.
Thanks for the clarification; this is not at all what I’d initially understood you to be saying.
In general it’s worth staying aware of the differences between “nobody talks to X about gender dynamics” and “only X talks about gender dynamics,” as it’s the latter (or approximations thereof) that cause the problem you describe… but I agree that if X is consistent about involving themself in all discussions of gender dynamics, the former starts to approximate the latter.
So yeah, I’d say you’re right, this is one of the ways evaporative cooling works. (And I understand that that’s not meant as a personal criticism, except perhaps in the most technical of senses, and I’m not taking it as one.)
Edit: Hm. Annoyingly, actually, I do seem to be taking it as one. So let me say, rather, that I don’t endorse taking it as one, and will work on getting over it. :-)
To be fair (I’m not sure on who—maybe Dave, maybe everyone here) nothing that has gone on in this backwater of a subthread can be considered at all representative of a group position on anything. From the beginning this has been about slinging mud and taking offense at positions allegedly possessed by various groups of people that presumably exist somewhere on the internet. Most people just wouldn’t touch this with an 11 foot pole.
I’m not sure I agree. This discussion is one example of what seems to me to be a representative pattern of behavior. Obviously, I am at substantial risk of mind-killed biased perception, but it seems to me that the local consensus is basically:
That has the effect of cutting out the extremists on both ends, but also cuts moderate-extremist social change activists out without addressing their counterparts on the other end of the continuum.
Behaviors that punish +5, +4, and −5 (on the continuum of positions) will skew what is said aloud so that it appears to outsiders that the local consensus is different than what is actually is. Much like the complaint about political correctness, that punishing +5, −4, and −5 will change what newcomers see as acceptable.
My position is that the quality of discussion on that particular subject is a disgrace that I don’t want to be associated with and would prefer not to have to put up with here. Years of experience suggest improvement is unlikely and that suppressing the conversation is the least harmful outcome. I don’t think I’m alone in that position (and so challenge your proposed ‘consensus’).
If newcomers were to see no conversation about moralizing sexual dynamics at all then they may be given the impression that this isn’t a good place to moralize about sexual dynamics. That would seem to be the best outcome that is realistically attainable.
You’d like a venue that talks about how to figure out what object-level moral injunctions to put onto a super-intelligent artificial entity, but doesn’t talk about how to talk about how one large group of humans treats another large group of human? I’m sympathetic to your disgust with the quality of discourse, but I think you are asking for the impossible.
Separately, it isn’t that hard to find examples of disparate treatment of various positions on the continuum, independent of how extreme they are. In other words, there are lots of −4 discussion posts and comment that are well received, while there are fewer +4 discussion posts and comments equally well received. So even if the consensus you wanted were possible, I don’t think it is actually being implemented.
I’d expect people’s ideas of where the zero point is to vary considerably, mainly thanks to selection effects: on average, people tend to be exposed mainly to political ideas similar to their own, partly due to political tribalism and partly because of geographical, age, and social class differences. That gives us a skewed local mean, and selection bias research tells us that people are not very good at compensating for that kind of thing even when they know it exists.
On average, therefore, we’d expect people with strong opinions on both sides of the aisle to feel that their side is meeting with a slightly harsher reception on the margins. That seems to explain most perceived political bias in this forum pretty well; taking the last poll results into account, if any mainstream position has an unusually hard time on the margins I’d expect it to be traditionalist conservatism. (Disclaimer: I am not a traditionalist.)
Yes. “Who—whom?” is not the sort of moral question I would like to discuss here.
Ideally I would like a venue where I just prevent people from slinging bullshit. That isn’t an option available to me. An option that is available is to make use of my trivial “downvote” and “make comments” powers to very slightly influence reality in the direction of less bullshit slinging contests.
I was trying to preempt a way the discussion could go. As for how I expected you to react, I’m generally not in the habit of psychoanalyzing my interlocutors. Although here is an example of how I respond to words being put in my mouth without flipping out.
And both claims are wrong- The only correct way of phrasing the normative claim is “We ought to socialize boys and girls in the way that maximizes instrumental value.”
It might have instrumental value to socialize boys and girls differently, even if there is no biological basis for the difference. It might be more valuable to socialize them the same, even if there is a biological reason why they are different.
Citation needed. A more typical claim might be “socialization is the cause of the vast majority (but not the entirety) of the observed difference between boys’ and girls’ behaviors and skills,” and this easily falsifiable claim is borne out by the available data, never mind evo psych just-so stories about what worked in the EEA.
A lot of nitpicky LW discussion could be avoided if we implicitly qualified absolute-sounding claims about relations in real life with “in most cases”. It would be rare that someone would object to e.g. a claim such as “differences between the behavior of boys and girls are due to socialization” being amended by “in the vast majority of case”, or by ”… but there are exceptions.”
We can default to claims as absolute when they refer to theoretical frameworks, for which absolute claims typically work out more, and are intended more often.
I’ve danced this dance before, with Robin Hanson no less.
Let me side with your youthful incarnation from five years ago:
Beyond just clarifying, you did seem to have taken the initial comment at face value, even though you probably suspected the intended meaning.
I agree with you regarding making the intended meaning as plain as possible as best practice; however, sidetracking the discussion in such a way often leads to “gotcha” continuations of minor details (minor because most people will side with you interpreting claims about human behavior as non-absolute by default, and follow the discussion correctly without such clarifications/rebuttals), which tend to replace other, more substantive discussions.
Sure. But it gets a little more sticky when one is attributing a false absolute claim to some other party, as Eugine did.
Or, you know, a google search. From memory even a google site search would be adequate.
(Which is not to say that such claim is inherent to feminism itself. Merely that the specific observation by Eugine that it is often made by feminists is not worthy of ‘citation needed’ stigma.)
Since the claim that is actually often made by feminists is both weaker and, according to current research, true, Eugine’s “observation” is a strawman. And I snort at the notion that my reply imparts a “stigma”.
That’s a far more complicated claim than it appears, with much of the complexity hiding inside the word “oppressed”.
When I find other people’s motivations mysterious, I find it helps to see if I have anything like that motivation (for dominance, it might be a desire to be in charge of anything at all) and imagine it as much more important in my life.
Unless there’s a friendly AI which has been built in secret somewhere, we’re still all human. With all the weaknesses and foibles of human nature; though we might try to mitigate those weaknesses, one of the biggest weaknesses in human nature is the belief that we have already mitigated those weaknesses, leading us to stop trying.
Status interactions are a big part of the human psyche. We signal in many ways—posture, facial expression, selection of clothing, word choice—and we respond to such signals automatically. If a man steps up to one and asks for directions to the local primary school, one would look at his signals before replying. Is he carrying a container of petrol and a box of matches, does he have a crazed look in his eye? Perhaps better to direct him to the local police station. Is he in a nice suit, smartly dressed, with well-shined shoes, accompanied by a small child in a brand-new school uniform? He probably has legitimate business at the school. And inbetween the two, there’s a whole range of potential sets of signals; and where there are signals, there are those who subvert the signals. Social hackers, I guess one could call them. And where such people exist—well, is it a good thing to pay attention to the signals or not? How much importance should one place on these signals, when the signals themselves could be subverted? How should one signal oneself—for any behaviour is a signal of some sort?
Except that what’s being discussed here is the exploitation of those weaknesses, not their mitigation. And seeking to exploit those weaknesses as an end in and of itself leads to a particular kind of affective death spiral that rationalists claim to want to avoid, so I’m trying to raise a “what’s up with that?” signal before a particular set of adverse cultural values lock in.
Ah, I see; so while I’m saying that I expect that some exploitation will happen with high probability in any sufficiently large social group, you are trying to point out the negative side of said exploitation and thus cut it off, or at least reduce it, at an early stage.