I’ll answer to both your replies here. Sorry about any confusion that the deletion of my first reply caused.
It seems like your argument is roughly:
1) There’s a difference between “wanting to want” and “object-level wanting”
2) If I manage to create a strong object-level want, I will boost my attention without needing to coerce myself
With some extra ideas:
* Having mistaken beliefs about what you want—ones not connected to revealed preference—is harmful, since it leads to self-delusion and stuckness.
* Actually-viscerally-motivated people can sustain attention to a meditation object, even without much training
If my understanding is correct, then we are largely in agreement. You are highlighting coercive tendencies in my post, and I do believe that there’s great value in anchoring my wants in something visceral. My usage of “should” might point to an inner conflict that’s useful to resolve, and I will look into this.
However, this wasn’t the key thing I wanted to focus on in the post—I was more curious about how the difference between a third-person and a first-person perspective affects my meditation.
I’m also convinced that actual-visceral motivation isn’t sufficient for an untrained person to sustain attention to the breath for a long amount of time, even if it is (roughly) necessary—or at least very helpful/useful.
Finally—you ask why I am attempting to do such an unusual thing. For me, meditation is connected to wellbeing, the amount of conscious awareness I can bring to my everyday life. I notice when I skip meditation, similarly to how I notice when I mess up my sleep or skip workouts. These factors lead to me treating it as important—in the “wanting to want” sense. Turning that into an actual-visceral motivation is part of the challenge of meditation—it’s a practice arena for challenging mistaken beliefs about my wants and turning them into actual-visceral motivation.
It’s similar to my just-woken-up self after a period of poor sleep hygiene—my momentary “revealed preference” is to stay in bed, snoozing. Giving in to this preference perpetuates the poor sleep hygiene spiral—akin to addiction. When this happens, I have a “wanting to want” (stepping out of bed when I wake up) that I ideally are able to transform into an actual-visceral motivation, similar to the move that is useful in my meditation practice.
Thanks for taking the time to thoughtfully engage, I appreciate it.
Jonathan Moregård
I initially wrote another comment, that was written hastily. I decided to delete it, and want to give you a proper response.
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>It often makes sense to talk about “I”. “I” makes sense. I am writing this, for one. You know exactly what that means, it is clearly true, and there is nothing that noticing this requires you to flinch away from.
Agreed.
>”Should”, on the other hand, falls apart very quickly and is usually functioning to preserve a disconnect from reality. Valentine talks about it here, and So8res talks about it here.
Agreed, I generally like the advice in replacing guilt.
>You say you should focus on your breath. Why? Why aren’t you already drawn to your breath, if that’s what you want to focus on?
>Sensations of the breath are arising, yes. And so are many other things. If those sensations are interesting and worth attending to (according to you), then simply noticing that they’re there is enough. If it’s not, then “I want to focus on the breath” is empirically shown to be false—so now you have a question of why you’re trying to force yourself to do a thing you don’t want to do.
The post is in the context of focus meditation, where I practice my ability to sustain attention/focus for unusual amounts of time. Untrained people (and semi-trained people like me) can’t sustain focus for extended amounts of time—even if I set my mind to the breath, it will slip away.
Sustained focus can be practised through a process of self-conditioning:
1) Try to sustain focus on the breath
2) Realize that your mind has wandered (auto-switch)
3) Catch yourself and refocus on the breath
>The lack of “self language” when talking to oneself comes straight from maintaining connection to reality instead of BSing yourself. I might tell my wife I want to eat lunch, if that helps coordinate with her. But if I’m telling myself that I want to eat lunch, then with whom am I attempting to coordinate? I’ll just eat or not eat. It’s not that there’s never any such thing as a “self” that has enough coherence to become a useful model, it’s that when you’re saying “I want to focus on my breath” and then choosing not to, there’s clearly no coherent self wanting to focus on those sensations.
>There can be though, if that’s what you want.
I’m not sure I follow this part of your comment. I agree there’s no coherent self, I do not understand what you mean with “There can be though, if that’s what you want”. Do you mean “It’s possible to will/train yourself to have a coherent self”?
Well, killing each other to resolve arguments does seem like the kind of thing I would frown upon (unless the killers seem to dislike other people frowning at them)
This post is targeted more towards people picking up things like Nonviolent communication (which I think can be great*) and ending up angry at their parents/friends for not being skilled.When someone new to nvc ends up judging non-practitioners, focusing more on failures than understanding, then they’re shooting themselves in the foot.
Even if you want to convert everyone, I would argue that irritation & correcting others aren’t an optimal way to drive adoption.
*) more info here: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/PCrTQDbciG4oLgmQ5/sapir-whorf-for-rationalists
I follow most of the post, but got confused by the non-cyclic graph & halting problem/computational intractability part.
Is the non-cyclic graph a way of modelling causality as state transitions?
Re: computational intractability; I understand your argument as saying:
Dualism is used as a fundamental interpretative tool, since it makes it tractable to analyze feedback loops between brain and environment.
When meditating, dualism gets broken down due to lack of feedback loops and an increase in neutral annealing, leading to nondual world models
Questions: A. Why is the awakened brain capable of performing “computationally intractable” computation (non-dual & feedback loopy)? Seems more like an aptness thing than a fundamental impossibility thing (a la halting problem) B. Does all awakening-inducing meditative practices involve cutting feedback loops? Is awakening a theravada/Samantha thing?
I found your example problem very interesting, and started thinking about social dynamics that match “tell me if you do it, but don’t do it”.
The closest cultural anchor I could find is that of sin, confession, priest. Modelling the situation as a confession might be an apt anchor
Why is hostile low-quality resurrection almost inevitable? If you want to clone someone into an em, why not pick a living human?
Frozen people have potential brain damage and an outdated understanding of the world.
“By manipulating your belief system, you can lessen your inhibitions, by lowering the perceived threat of less control.”
I don’t follow this sentence
So I might read “trust the universe” and get closer to a flow state, or forget exactly what I meant by that.
Yes, this is the problem when signifiers detach from the signified. In my post on personal heuristics I mention something similar: the issue where many “stock wisdoms” turn into detached platitudes.
This is also reminiscent of spiritual practices (like meditation instructions) that turn into religious dogma.
For me, there’s a difference between having techniques that are dependent on reminders (like telling yourself “trust the universe”), and techniques that are more descriptive (like “take slow belly-breaths with long exhales” or “act upon your immediate impulses”)
This is an enormous topic that is under-theorized, agreed that language is somewhat lacking.
When I’m very in tune with my short-term desires, emotions and agency—acting according to instinct and impulse rather than ideas, plans or similar.
It’s a mindset/state of being I can go into, which has a very particular “flavour” to it, it’s light-hearted, unconcerned & in tune with what I want/like, in the moment.
I guess different people have different “modes” or “headspaces”, a kind of equilibria for how they experience the world, their own agency, and themselves. Different equilibria fit different situations. What I wanted to exemplify in the post was the potential of knowing what “modes”, “equilibrias” or “headspaces” you have access to, and try switching into non-standard ones when your default headspace doesn’t resolve the situation at hand.
If we want to shift group dynamics, I see these things as important shifts:
conflict theory → mistake theory
general complaints → specific solutions
overconfidence → humility
One way to go about this, inspired by Scott Alexander, is to ask for more concreteness: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/details-that-you-should-include-in
In general, though, I think the info content of the outrage is low. For most people, it mainly means “I read this thing online, and it resonated somehow”. I see most outrage group discussions as extensions of newsfeeds, best to be ignored.
For solid discussions, find the people capable of deep analysis, and read their work.
Do you mean “alert and active” as in:
Dealing with group-outrage situations without zoning out?
Staying up to date with politics and having an influence?
Shifting your social contexts to become less outrage-oriented?
Other?
This happened a while ago, and I’ve since migrated my social circles to distinctly non-partisan ones. I still want to help you, and would like to offer some ideas. Some of them might not fit your specific contexts. I trust you to pick the ones that seem promising.
Ideas:
Say something akin to “I get depressed talking about those people. I’ve decided to focus on people I like instead. Have you been excited about anything recently?”
Bring up the negative consequences explicitly. In a highly polarized state, not engaging in the outrage might be interpreted as a sign of betrayal. Explicitly bringing it up might be weird, but it gives you a non-traitor reason for not engaging in outrage
Look into authentic relating—a bunch of practices for deepening communication & connection. Nonviolent communication & circling are included in this category, as well as general “authentic relating”. You get some new tools for relating, and/or new friends.
Try to get people to reduce time spent on news & social media. Phone-free family gatherings?
Get people addicted to mobile games, so they spend their time on candy crush instead of culture wars
Become a hermit, build a log house under an oversized rock
For reference, most of the people I hang out with are involved in the nordic branches of the wider burning man community. They are busy actually doing things, rather than complaining about politics. YMMV, but equivalent spaces where you’re located might serve as a source of non-bitter connections.
See my response to mako yass :)
The article is party written from a past-me perspective, and I agree that it is a bit harsh. Also, there are multiple things converging to create an expectation mismatch.
I guess it’s possible to say both things, and I failed at disambiguating between the content of what was said and the tone. Most people looked at me like I was a beaten dog, offering support in the same ooh-that’s-horrible tone people vibe into during charity galas.
I get that it might be a (sub)cultural thing, but I’ve gotten a lot of appreciation for actually trying to understand the person’s situation. Guess vs ask culture maybe?
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The medical opinion was that: “That’s an inappropriate question”. It works for dogs, so why not? :D
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“No, we are going to split it up into millimetre sized cubes and analyse it”. (They went full hitchhiker’s on me.)
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“Some people don’t lose their hair” (empirically, the answer is “yes”)
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Always carry a water bottle—keeping hydrated is easier, as is avoiding sugary drinks (due to reduced thirst impulses)
I get where you’re coming from and appreciate you “rounding off” rather than branching out :)
I wrote a post on “inside-out identity”, here: https://honestliving.substack.com/p/inside-out-identity
Also, I only post some of my writing on lesswrong, so if you’re interested, I can recommend subscribing to my substack :)
in case it’s a form of self-defense, I’d like to warn against it.
Nope! It’s a conscious decision. I challenge myself and discover things I’ve been avoiding. (hiding from others → hiding from self). It’s a way to step into my power.
If you’re watching a movie with a group of people and you make a sound to break the immersion, you’ve been rude. It’s the same with social reality. The fear of being exposed/seen though is similar to the fear of being judged. Not looking too closely is good manners.
It’s complicated! I tend to break it in interesting ways, with people that enjoy creative reframings. I know the power/joy of narratives, and try to do this in ways that serve the group. Hard to put into words, but people who are usually “stuck” in social reality express that they are surprised over feeling safe enough to open up, and seem happy enough.
If I “see through” somebody , it’s only to compliment them. I try not noticing their flaws too much. This helps them to relax.
I almost never judge. I’ve practised nonviolent communication, creating “mental handles” for my judgements. When I start judging someone, I relate to my judgement as something occurring in me, rather than projecting it on the other person.
I also don’t think of people’s actions as good or bad. I rather try to understand why they are acting as they do. Some actions are untrained/unskillful.
At the same time, I’m very selective with who I hang out with :)
I hope you are allowing yourself to be human, to not always be correct, moral, and objective. That you allow yourself immersion in life, rather than a birds-eye-perspective which keeps you permanently disillusioned. Perhaps this is the anxiety-inducing self-consciousness you’re avoiding? If so, no problem!
I’m not improving my moral character because I think I should. I do it because I enjoy progress and challenge. Virtue is the sole good ;)
I feel generally happy and life feels meaningful. It feels more meaningful the more I learn about it.
Some of my writing is on the wilder side, exploring dominance dynamics, tantra and similar. I’m not at risk of being morally inhibited, and tend to value (virtue) ethics over inhibiting norms/morals.
But I assume you know how slatestarcodex got shut down despite having high ethical standards? The closer one is to public opinion, the less they can get away with.
I don’t see the danger. I’m open to my family and friends—no blackmail leverage. I keep away from culture war stuff, writing to an advanced audience. I am independently wealthy, enough to semi-retire. I earn money by facilitating philosophical inquiry, no boss to fire me.
At this point, I’d rather not live in fear. I’m as safe as it gets, and want to shift the overton window. Re: slatestarcodex—it seems to be going well for Scott.
P.S: It’s interesting to reflect with you, but this is getting a tad long for my taste, so I’ll try to stop at this point. If you are curious about anything and would like me to write about it, I’m open for suggestions.
There are a lot of things about my social behaviour that are confusing.
I engage in radical honesty, trying to express what is going on in my head as transparently as possible. I have not been in a fight/argument for 8 years.
People have said it’s pleasant to talk to me. I tend to express disagreement even if I’m mostly aligned with the person I’m talking to.
I break all kinds of rules. My go-to approach for getting to know strangers is:
ask them to join me in 1on1 conversation
open up by saying: “I have this question I like asking people to get to know them. Are you open to try it?” → “yes” → “what’s important to you?”
At the same time, people all say they feel safe with me, expressing gratitude. (with one memorable exception)
And it’s not all in my head. I keep getting invited to amazing places/communities. I have an easy time landing jobs. I bootstrapped a philosophical guidance practice over a few months, and have recurring paying happy clients.
I think there are some keys to it:
I work really hard on virtue/being a good person instead of just signalling
I’ve worked on communication A LOT, including various intersubjective communication practices (circling etc), nonviolent communication, authentic relating
I habitually take the kinds of initiatives that lead to high status in groups
I am generally successful money-wise, and have high intelligence, and am not part of a marginalized group, so I think I have a lot of leeway.
I hang out with people that are far from normative (burning man extended communities)
From a signalling point of view, I’m taking the risk of being seen as cringe, while expressing something positive in a skilled way so as to not elicit threat responses. This ends up being a strong signal since:
I take a risk (being seen as cringe), signalling that I have social capital enough to not fear the risk of judement
I do it in a calibrated way, building trust
I express positive intent, being the oppsoite of self-serving
In essence, I communicate:
I have power, and don’t give a fuck about social customs
I have strong goodwill, and will accept you without judgement
I demonstrate that it’s okay to relax and act in very direct (yet ethical) ways, establishing social spaciousness.
I haven’t analyzed this that much, since I tend to avoid explicit signalling considerations. I want to avoid the risk of anxiety-inducing self-consciousness and prestige-seeking impulses.
I hope this piece of context has given some additional insight.
I’m basically in roughly the same social equilibria as eccentrics.
Makes sense, I’ll see if I manage to get there in time.
Seems like your approach is cohering across perspectives while including more aspects into conscious awareness. Seems more likely to lead to integration/wholeness instead of dissociation/lost purposes.
edit: I’m also curious about your background/experience of meditation, if you are open to sharing.