I think this essay has interesting insights, but I am left disturbed by something that is not made entirely clear. In Sabien’s ideal world, am I allowed to opt out of the game of “punch bag”? Because, although it is the first time I hear about this game, I already hate it. Not in the “this is wrong for complicated social, political and/or ethical reasons” sort of way, but in the “I personally find it very annoying, gross and unpleasant” sort of way.
So, if Sabien proposes a world in which one cannot opt out of “punch bag” (and if so, the same probably applies to many other things I would want to opt out of), then I really don’t want to live in that world. Speaking of pendulums that swing too far, maybe we can have a world where people don’t do the “social ownership of the micro” thing, but also where personal freedom and autonomy is respected?
Sounds like that was what school was like for many, and this certainly rings true given my school experiences—if you’re in school, then you’re physically forced into proximity with people who will punch you whenever they feel like it, and it’s supposed to teach you an important lesson, or something. Duncan seems unsure whether we have too little of this, or too much.
Note that he says if you tell them you’re not playing, they respond “It sure looks like you’re playing, you’re not punching me back.” Which I think (at least, unless you can call in Reasonable Authority Figure and have them be punished appropriately without becoming a pariah, but actually even then) makes it a moral obligation to punch them. As hard as you can. Right in the face. And ideally then walk away, silently.
So, yeah, not being able to opt out of that seems pretty terrible. I think there’s a lot of value in playing such a game, especially that it forces you to pay attention to the world around you and also to make it clear that the occasional punch/whatever really isn’t a big deal, on an easy-to-actually-get level. Plus, it’s just fun. I think I cried tears of joy during the preview for the movie Tag. But the idea of not even being allowed to opt out of it seems pretty terrible.
And I hereby opt into the game with Duncan and only Duncan. Cause otherwise it’s a asymmetric pickoff, plus I don’t know how to punch well.
Note that he says if you tell them you’re not playing, they respond “It sure looks like you’re playing, you’re not punching me back.” Which I think (at least, unless you can call in Reasonable Authority Figure and have them be punished appropriately without becoming a pariah, but actually even then) makes it a moral obligation to punch them. As hard as you can. Right in the face. And ideally then walk away, silently.
My intuition is that that’s neither the moral obligation, nor an effective way to resolve the issue—I would guess that the right thing to do would be to punch back, but roughly in kind (with regard to power and location).
In the case of a “gentle tap”, as Duncan describes it, I guess I would probably tend towards verbal rebuke, escalating to a mild punch if they gave me shit over it? Can’t say for certain, and context matters, but it feels consistent with my behavior as an adolescent in these sorts of situations. He holds that this can get you ostracized hard, but the world’s a big pond, and it doesn’t really match my life experience, so I’m tentatively not buying that claim.
Escalating what is meant as relatively playful or mild violence to actual violence is probably not moral under most common belief systems, and is likely to make enemies where you could have asserted yourself at less cost.
Agreed that you shouldn’t escalate violence in response to violence—punching them back roughly 10% less hard than they punched you (since aiming at this will make you get it right) is the right response at that point. The not-playing-around sucker punch is the response to their statement that you not punching them back is you playing the game.
I think it’s more about situations that have insufficient information. The initial example has him being called “rapey” for a light tap on a friends shoulder for the first time. It’s different if he were to slug them hard and it’s different if the recipient already expressed they aren’t interested. But if the first time someone taps their friend on their shoulder is compared to actual rape in any way then we clearly need to reevaluate something.
A bit about my history that colors this—I grew up being taught in a way that I thought going up to someone, especially a woman, introducing myself, and extending my hand for a handshake was vaguely rapey. People with different experiences than mine may find the article a lot less important than I do. In my personal pendulum swing I still avoid punch buggy like things towards people who have said no to them but am a lot more open to trying it for the first time with a new person who seems like the type who’d enjoy them.
My read it is that he mostly criticizes people who object to the game on ideological grounds. Typically, you wouldn’t hit hard, it’s a playful thing.
It’s about making a big thing out of a small thing, when it would be equally easy (easier, ultimately) to ignore it and play along.
Now, surely we can imagine an abusive scenario. What to do? I think it requires social finesse. Either you’re being hit too hard and you think you have a good case to be made for that. You just say: you hit me too hard, stop doing it. That might work. But maybe the person thinks you’re objecting on unreasonable ideological ground, or maybe he’s just a jerk. Then don’t mount your high horses, just punch them back.
If I could give advice to my younger self, one of the most important one would be: throw a few punches. I was never bullied, but people did give me a lot of flack because I was a good students (and with hindsight, there are other things I could have done to ease the situation, but I digress). I should have punched one or two students who gave me a hard time. Even if I ultimately got beaten. The point is to send a signal that messing with you is costly, it has consequences. It’s not a matter of debate.
I think this essay has interesting insights, but I am left disturbed by something that is not made entirely clear. In Sabien’s ideal world, am I allowed to opt out of the game of “punch bag”? Because, although it is the first time I hear about this game, I already hate it. Not in the “this is wrong for complicated social, political and/or ethical reasons” sort of way, but in the “I personally find it very annoying, gross and unpleasant” sort of way.
So, if Sabien proposes a world in which one cannot opt out of “punch bag” (and if so, the same probably applies to many other things I would want to opt out of), then I really don’t want to live in that world. Speaking of pendulums that swing too far, maybe we can have a world where people don’t do the “social ownership of the micro” thing, but also where personal freedom and autonomy is respected?
Sounds like that was what school was like for many, and this certainly rings true given my school experiences—if you’re in school, then you’re physically forced into proximity with people who will punch you whenever they feel like it, and it’s supposed to teach you an important lesson, or something. Duncan seems unsure whether we have too little of this, or too much.
Note that he says if you tell them you’re not playing, they respond “It sure looks like you’re playing, you’re not punching me back.” Which I think (at least, unless you can call in Reasonable Authority Figure and have them be punished appropriately without becoming a pariah, but actually even then) makes it a moral obligation to punch them. As hard as you can. Right in the face. And ideally then walk away, silently.
So, yeah, not being able to opt out of that seems pretty terrible. I think there’s a lot of value in playing such a game, especially that it forces you to pay attention to the world around you and also to make it clear that the occasional punch/whatever really isn’t a big deal, on an easy-to-actually-get level. Plus, it’s just fun. I think I cried tears of joy during the preview for the movie Tag. But the idea of not even being allowed to opt out of it seems pretty terrible.
And I hereby opt into the game with Duncan and only Duncan. Cause otherwise it’s a asymmetric pickoff, plus I don’t know how to punch well.
My intuition is that that’s neither the moral obligation, nor an effective way to resolve the issue—I would guess that the right thing to do would be to punch back, but roughly in kind (with regard to power and location).
In the case of a “gentle tap”, as Duncan describes it, I guess I would probably tend towards verbal rebuke, escalating to a mild punch if they gave me shit over it? Can’t say for certain, and context matters, but it feels consistent with my behavior as an adolescent in these sorts of situations. He holds that this can get you ostracized hard, but the world’s a big pond, and it doesn’t really match my life experience, so I’m tentatively not buying that claim.
Escalating what is meant as relatively playful or mild violence to actual violence is probably not moral under most common belief systems, and is likely to make enemies where you could have asserted yourself at less cost.
Agreed that you shouldn’t escalate violence in response to violence—punching them back roughly 10% less hard than they punched you (since aiming at this will make you get it right) is the right response at that point. The not-playing-around sucker punch is the response to their statement that you not punching them back is you playing the game.
I think it’s more about situations that have insufficient information. The initial example has him being called “rapey” for a light tap on a friends shoulder for the first time. It’s different if he were to slug them hard and it’s different if the recipient already expressed they aren’t interested. But if the first time someone taps their friend on their shoulder is compared to actual rape in any way then we clearly need to reevaluate something.
A bit about my history that colors this—I grew up being taught in a way that I thought going up to someone, especially a woman, introducing myself, and extending my hand for a handshake was vaguely rapey. People with different experiences than mine may find the article a lot less important than I do. In my personal pendulum swing I still avoid punch buggy like things towards people who have said no to them but am a lot more open to trying it for the first time with a new person who seems like the type who’d enjoy them.
My read it is that he mostly criticizes people who object to the game on ideological grounds. Typically, you wouldn’t hit hard, it’s a playful thing.
It’s about making a big thing out of a small thing, when it would be equally easy (easier, ultimately) to ignore it and play along.
Now, surely we can imagine an abusive scenario. What to do? I think it requires social finesse. Either you’re being hit too hard and you think you have a good case to be made for that. You just say: you hit me too hard, stop doing it. That might work. But maybe the person thinks you’re objecting on unreasonable ideological ground, or maybe he’s just a jerk. Then don’t mount your high horses, just punch them back.
If I could give advice to my younger self, one of the most important one would be: throw a few punches. I was never bullied, but people did give me a lot of flack because I was a good students (and with hindsight, there are other things I could have done to ease the situation, but I digress). I should have punched one or two students who gave me a hard time. Even if I ultimately got beaten. The point is to send a signal that messing with you is costly, it has consequences. It’s not a matter of debate.