I’m going to pretend I didn’t write the other response I wrote, because I thought up a much better one some time after writing it. That other response was a cached thought that’s probably just something I picked up from my parents. Repeating it now would just be a form of bullshit.
The actual problem is that, when I start giving up on goals, no matter how stupid, I soon find myself running down a psychological slippery slope. I start thinking that everything I do is pointless, and end up lying in bed, miserable, and thinking about what it would be like not to exist.
I can make a good case that much of what I do is indeed pointless. Why should I try to get 100% completion in a certain video game? Because I want to have done it. Why do I want to have done it? No reason in particular. It will make absolutely no difference, except in my own mind, whether or not I get 100% completion. I only seem to want it because I have decided to want it. And if I that’s the case, then I should be able to decide not to want it. And maybe I’m getting a little bit bored or frustrated with the game, so maybe I’d be better off not wanting it, so I can go do something else. Maybe there’s a better game to play, or something. Okay, I don’t care about this particular goal any more. What should I do now?
...
::stares at shelves of unfinished and unplayed video games::
...
You know, I don’t think I care about these other games any more than I care about the one I just decided not to care about...
...
Actually, it doesn’t seem like there’s anything I want to do at all. Why is it that even a bad game can hold my attention when I have some real work to avoid, but the moment I have nothing else to do, they lose a lot of their appeal?
...
The only things I can get myself to do without turning into a horrible wreck are pointless ones, like playing video games.
...
I only do pointless things; therefore my existence is pointless. And it’s worse than that, because other people expend resources on maintaining my existence, because I can’t seem to do it myself. I don’t value my life, but because I exist, other people do. So the world would have been a better place if I had not existed, but killing myself would be even worse than continuing to live a worthless life. On the other hand, maybe killing myself is actually the right thing to do?
...
Wow, it sure sucks to be thinking like this. I should stop thinking about myself. Maybe if I played a video game, I could take my mind off all the reasons I have to be miserable? That’s worked before. Let’s see, I was trying to get 100% completion in that one game...
So, yeah. If I let myself start questioning the value of what I’m doing and give up, I sometimes end up in a horrible pit of despair. (The last time this happened to me was… last night, as a matter of fact.)
(nods) I’m familiar with this state of mind. I spent rather a lot of time in it while recovering from my stroke.
It’s pretty awful. I’m sorry you’re experiencing it.
I doubt that killing yourself would improve matters by any metric worth discussing.
My own experience was that the fastest way out of it was to do something for someone else. What the thing was didn’t matter too much, as long as it represented a significant effort for me (some days, that included simply getting out of bed and checking the mail) and interacted in some way with someone other than me (e.g., my partner).
Are you receiving any professional assistance with any of this?
Are you receiving any professional assistance with any of this?
Every therapist I’ve gone to has done little more than waste my time. (They’ve been helpful for my mom, but not so much for me; the only thing any mental health professional has done that has helped me directly has been to prescribe medication.)
(nods) You might find it worthwhile to try and state somewhat precisely what it is about those experiences that made them worthless. Insofar as it is actions or inactions on their part, it may help you look for useful assistance in a more targeted way. Insofar as it is actions or inactions on your part, it may help you identify habits that aren’t getting you what you want. (Or, if you prefer: strategies that earn you suboptimal scores in this fully immersive multiplayer game we’re all playing.)
My own experience was that the fastest way out of it was to do something for someone else.
Eep. I have trouble with this. I don’t like it when other people rely on me to do things for them, because I frequently end up failing to do them (because I oversleep, or can’t pry myself away from the computer, or whatever). I can barely do things for myself, at times. And “doing things for someone else” also brings up memories of being yelled at by my parents to go do something not very pleasant while I’m in the middle of doing something on the computer...
Well, perhaps you’ll find a road out that works better for you. I certainly don’t claim to have any general solution to the problem of depression, merely techniques that worked for me when I needed them.
That said, there is a broad gap between doing something for someone and having them rely on you to do it. Doing someone a favor is not the same thing as becoming their employee, for example.
And there is a similarly broad gap between choosing to do something and being forced to do it. If your experiences with performing services for people are primarily the latter, you might be surprised by how different the former feels.
Obvious question: if the only reason you care about computer games is because you’ve chosen to care about it, why not choose to care about something else instead?
I don’t know if “chosen” is quite the right word… “stumbled into caring about”, or “conditioned into caring about” might be more accurate. There wasn’t a specific moment when I consciously decided to care about completing video games, it just sort of happened on its own, as a result of some ongoing process or other...
For various reasons, video games are a rather convenient, if useless, thing to care about… If you play them, I’m sure you know what I mean. I’d rather not care about something I fail at a lot...
I know exactly what you mean about computer games, I used to get addicted to them fairly easily and be able to play for 12-14 hours at a time. I’ve also been down that particular hole of “everything I do is pointless, I’m pointless, I’m trapped into remaining alive by the people around me”.
As to what to choose to care about, I haven’t got anything to suggest that I know will work.
My instinct is to suggest that you start caring about societally-approved things like exercise or taking care of your mother because you’re more likely to get external positive feedback that’ll help get you through the uncomfortable parts and give you a sense of accomplishment. Or if you have a camera, start a 365 project. If you don’t, start some other kind of creative project like writing or programming or whatever it is that you think you might find interesting.
But.. I don’t know if any of those suggestions are likely to help. You’ve been at this computer game thing for long enough that almost any other activity is going to look understimulating and difficult/uncomfortable in comparison. In my own situation I was helped along partly by a belief that I deserve to suffer, which meant that feeling uncomfortable often wasn’t a sufficient reason not to do something. I assume you don’t have that belief, which means you’ll need to find some other reason to keep going rather than thinking “oh well, failed again, time to distract myself with some more games”.
I’m going to pretend I didn’t write the other response I wrote, because I thought up a much better one some time after writing it. That other response was a cached thought that’s probably just something I picked up from my parents. Repeating it now would just be a form of bullshit.
The actual problem is that, when I start giving up on goals, no matter how stupid, I soon find myself running down a psychological slippery slope. I start thinking that everything I do is pointless, and end up lying in bed, miserable, and thinking about what it would be like not to exist.
I can make a good case that much of what I do is indeed pointless. Why should I try to get 100% completion in a certain video game? Because I want to have done it. Why do I want to have done it? No reason in particular. It will make absolutely no difference, except in my own mind, whether or not I get 100% completion. I only seem to want it because I have decided to want it. And if I that’s the case, then I should be able to decide not to want it. And maybe I’m getting a little bit bored or frustrated with the game, so maybe I’d be better off not wanting it, so I can go do something else. Maybe there’s a better game to play, or something. Okay, I don’t care about this particular goal any more. What should I do now?
...
::stares at shelves of unfinished and unplayed video games::
...
You know, I don’t think I care about these other games any more than I care about the one I just decided not to care about...
...
Actually, it doesn’t seem like there’s anything I want to do at all. Why is it that even a bad game can hold my attention when I have some real work to avoid, but the moment I have nothing else to do, they lose a lot of their appeal?
...
The only things I can get myself to do without turning into a horrible wreck are pointless ones, like playing video games.
...
I only do pointless things; therefore my existence is pointless. And it’s worse than that, because other people expend resources on maintaining my existence, because I can’t seem to do it myself. I don’t value my life, but because I exist, other people do. So the world would have been a better place if I had not existed, but killing myself would be even worse than continuing to live a worthless life. On the other hand, maybe killing myself is actually the right thing to do?
...
Wow, it sure sucks to be thinking like this. I should stop thinking about myself. Maybe if I played a video game, I could take my mind off all the reasons I have to be miserable? That’s worked before. Let’s see, I was trying to get 100% completion in that one game...
So, yeah. If I let myself start questioning the value of what I’m doing and give up, I sometimes end up in a horrible pit of despair. (The last time this happened to me was… last night, as a matter of fact.)
(nods) I’m familiar with this state of mind. I spent rather a lot of time in it while recovering from my stroke.
It’s pretty awful. I’m sorry you’re experiencing it.
I doubt that killing yourself would improve matters by any metric worth discussing.
My own experience was that the fastest way out of it was to do something for someone else. What the thing was didn’t matter too much, as long as it represented a significant effort for me (some days, that included simply getting out of bed and checking the mail) and interacted in some way with someone other than me (e.g., my partner).
Are you receiving any professional assistance with any of this?
Every therapist I’ve gone to has done little more than waste my time. (They’ve been helpful for my mom, but not so much for me; the only thing any mental health professional has done that has helped me directly has been to prescribe medication.)
(nods) You might find it worthwhile to try and state somewhat precisely what it is about those experiences that made them worthless. Insofar as it is actions or inactions on their part, it may help you look for useful assistance in a more targeted way. Insofar as it is actions or inactions on your part, it may help you identify habits that aren’t getting you what you want. (Or, if you prefer: strategies that earn you suboptimal scores in this fully immersive multiplayer game we’re all playing.)
Eep. I have trouble with this. I don’t like it when other people rely on me to do things for them, because I frequently end up failing to do them (because I oversleep, or can’t pry myself away from the computer, or whatever). I can barely do things for myself, at times. And “doing things for someone else” also brings up memories of being yelled at by my parents to go do something not very pleasant while I’m in the middle of doing something on the computer...
Well, perhaps you’ll find a road out that works better for you. I certainly don’t claim to have any general solution to the problem of depression, merely techniques that worked for me when I needed them.
That said, there is a broad gap between doing something for someone and having them rely on you to do it. Doing someone a favor is not the same thing as becoming their employee, for example.
And there is a similarly broad gap between choosing to do something and being forced to do it. If your experiences with performing services for people are primarily the latter, you might be surprised by how different the former feels.
Obvious question: if the only reason you care about computer games is because you’ve chosen to care about it, why not choose to care about something else instead?
That could work. Any suggestions on what to pick?
I don’t know if “chosen” is quite the right word… “stumbled into caring about”, or “conditioned into caring about” might be more accurate. There wasn’t a specific moment when I consciously decided to care about completing video games, it just sort of happened on its own, as a result of some ongoing process or other...
For various reasons, video games are a rather convenient, if useless, thing to care about… If you play them, I’m sure you know what I mean. I’d rather not care about something I fail at a lot...
http://dirtsimple.org/2006/08/how-to-decide-what-you-want.html
2006 seems like a long time ago in Ebyworld, I don’t know if that still matches his current thoughts well.
I know exactly what you mean about computer games, I used to get addicted to them fairly easily and be able to play for 12-14 hours at a time. I’ve also been down that particular hole of “everything I do is pointless, I’m pointless, I’m trapped into remaining alive by the people around me”.
As to what to choose to care about, I haven’t got anything to suggest that I know will work. My instinct is to suggest that you start caring about societally-approved things like exercise or taking care of your mother because you’re more likely to get external positive feedback that’ll help get you through the uncomfortable parts and give you a sense of accomplishment. Or if you have a camera, start a 365 project. If you don’t, start some other kind of creative project like writing or programming or whatever it is that you think you might find interesting. But.. I don’t know if any of those suggestions are likely to help. You’ve been at this computer game thing for long enough that almost any other activity is going to look understimulating and difficult/uncomfortable in comparison. In my own situation I was helped along partly by a belief that I deserve to suffer, which meant that feeling uncomfortable often wasn’t a sufficient reason not to do something. I assume you don’t have that belief, which means you’ll need to find some other reason to keep going rather than thinking “oh well, failed again, time to distract myself with some more games”.