. Given functional birth control and non-fucked family structure, incest is fine and natural and probably a good experience to have.
The “incest isn’t wrong” position isn’t novel. The “everyone would be better off if they did” is novel, and I confess I don’t understand it at all. Not everyone is attracted to close family members.
. Pedophilia is a legitimate sexual orientation, even if it expressing it IRL is bad. Child porn should not be suppressed (tho some of it is documentation of crime and should be investigated).
I agree with the first half, but would have phrased the second half as “the ban on computer-generated child pornography should be reversed and indeed subsidized to crowd out pornography using real children”.
Most of the impact of rape is a made-up self fulfilling prophesy.
Really? What about for people who don’t have access to emergency birth control? Or who were unlucky enough to be raped by someone with an STD? Or who live in a society that murders women who get raped as adulterers? Or just in a society that tends to divide women into “good girls” and “sluts”? (Maybe you meant society’s self-fulfilling prophecy in the latter two examples, but it’s not the woman’s self-fulfilling prophecy.)
*Yes, I know men get raped too. That’s pretty clearly not the context when people bring this argument up, however.
Race, class and subculture are the most useful pieces of information when judging a person.
Judging them for what? Doesn’t work for suitability as an underwear model, for example.
Not everyone is attracted to close family members.
And not everyone is attracted to everyone else, but I see no reason not to be close with your family in this way.
I agree with the first half, but would have phrased the second half as “the ban on computer-generated child pornography should be reversed and indeed subsidized to crowd out pornography using real children”.
Why so conservative? How is child porn different from child acting? Assuming consent and all that.
Really? What about for people who don’t have access to emergency birth control? Or who were unlucky enough to be raped by someone with an STD? Or who live in a society that murders women who get raped as adulterers? Or just in a society that tends to divide women into “good girls” and “sluts”? (Maybe you meant society’s self-fulfilling prophecy in the latter two examples, but it’s not the woman’s self-fulfilling prophecy.)
Yes, in third world countries, butthurt is not the primary damage caused by rape. I mean in cases without lasting physical effects. Maybe I should have been more clear?
Judging them for what?
pretty much anything besides being an underwear model. Likelyhood to start a fight. Expected value as an employee in most jobs. Intellectual capacity.
Come to think of it, the correlates of race are mostly covered by class and subculture.
I am specifically referring to female rape, because only females are encouraged to consider rape as a devastating or life-wrecking occurrence.
For some, the prevalent notion of “rape is something that doesn’t happen to men” seems to make the feelings of shame after being raped even worse. Female rape is commonly considered horrific and something where the victim needs support; male rape isn’t always even acknowledged as something that exists.
“That was hard for me to take,” Owiny tells me today. “There are certain things you just don’t believe can happen to a man, you get me? But I know now that sexual violence against men is a huge problem. Everybody has heard the women’s stories. But nobody has heard the men’s.” [...]
It reminds me of a scene described by Eunice Owiny: “There is a married couple,” she said. “The man has been raped, the woman has been raped. Disclosure is easy for the woman. She gets the medical treatment, she gets the attention, she’s supported by so many organisations. But the man is inside, dying.”
“In a nutshell, that’s exactly what happens,” Dolan agrees. “Part of the activism around women’s rights is: ‘Let’s prove that women are as good as men.’ But the other side is you should look at the fact that men can be weak and vulnerable.”
Margot Wallström, the UN special representative of the secretary-general for sexual violence in conflict, insists in a statement that the UNHCR extends its services to refugees of both genders. But she concedes that the “great stigma” men face suggests that the real number of survivors is higher than that reported. Wallström says the focus remains on women because they are “overwhelmingly” the victims. Nevertheless, she adds, “we do know of many cases of men and boys being raped.”
(Things are probably somewhat better in the Western world, but it’s the Western organizations that are helping perpetuate the “men aren’t raped” idea, so not necessarily that much better.)
only females are encouraged to consider rape as a devastating or life-wrecking occurrence.
Wait… what?
I may not be tracking, here. Are you suggesting that as a class, men who are raped aren’t as emotionally affected as women who are raped? Or that if they are, it’s for some reason other than social encouragement? Something else?
I was suggesting that men don’t have the constant bombardment of “if you got raped, you should feel bad”. There is some of that, but not as much and somewhat balanced by other parts of male culture like being looked down on for being emotionally affected by things: “man up and move on” and such.
On second thought, I don’t know why I even wrote that, and it detracts form the rest, so I’ll remove it.
Hang on a minute. This a prime hypothesis testing space! If you really think that anti-rape messaging makes post-rape experience worse, it surely follows that it must be worse for women than for men, this messaging being mostly aimed at women. So you can quite conveniently check your theory by comparing the incidence of ptsd, depression, etc in male and female rape survivors.
No need to keep this as a controversial suspicion or instinct, you’d be armed with real knowledge! Knowledge you can report back to us, and anyone else you may have discussed this issue with. Indeed I think you could cultivate a useful reputation for open mindedness and rationality if you went back to any place you’d seen this attitude expressed before, and shared your findings -positive or negative- with them.
Hang on a minute. This a prime hypothesis testing space! If you really think that anti-rape messaging makes post-rape experience worse, it surely follows that it must be worse for women than for men, this messaging being mostly aimed at women. So you can quite conveniently check your theory by comparing the incidence of ptsd, depression, etc in male and female rape survivors.
Not necessarily. If male rape is not acknowledged at all, it can be much harder to talk about it and heal.
Well, right, I understood that much. But you seemed to be arguing that such bombardment is causal to women feeling bad about being raped… that is, if it weren’t for that bombardment, they wouldn’t feel bad. So it seems to follow that you would expect men not to feel bad about being raped, since they don’t receive that bombardment.
That’s what confused me… your whole argument seems to hang together only if I assume that men in fact don’t feel bad when they’ve been raped (which sure isn’t my experience, not that I’m any sort of expert) so I was trying to confirm whether you were in fact assuming that.
such bombardment is causal to women feeling bad about being raped
Only partially. Obviously bad shit makes you feel bad, whether or not you have memes about it, but the hypothesis is that bad shit plus being encouraged to feel bad about it makes it worse.
So it seems to follow that you would expect men not to feel bad about being raped, since they don’t receive that bombardment.
men don’t recieve as much “you should feel bad and let it define your life” but as another user pointed out, it is also not socially acceptable to have been raped, so there is no chance to talk about it and heal.
your whole argument seems to hang together only if I assume that men in fact don’t feel bad when they’ve been raped (which sure isn’t my experience, not that I’m any sort of expert) so I was trying to confirm whether you were in fact assuming that.
Well I didn’t intend that particular assumption, or at least I don’t anymore. A better comparison to investigate would be how people react to being beaten or robbed.
Lower than it was when I posted it, but it seems plausible enough to be worth discussing.
I would now dispute the use of ‘most’.
what evidence
observations of cultural memes, seeing how people talk about it with victims, seeing how role models talk about it, and observations of people dealing with similar but unrelated pressures.
All of this is very easily screened off by closer evidence, I would like to see some more solid studies or more stories at least.
And not everyone is attracted to everyone else, but I see no reason not to be close with your family in this way.
I still don’t get it, and am genuinely trying to figure out what the inferential gap is. It sort of sounds like you’re saying sex produces the warm fuzzies of closer social bonding regardless of whether the participants are attracted to each other.
If that is what you are saying, then that sounds like the typical mind fallacy at work. I, for one, would not get warm fuzzies from sex with someone unattractive whether they are related to me or not.
If that’s not what you are saying, please clarify.
It sort of sounds like you’re saying sex produces the warm fuzzies of closer social bonding regardless of whether the participants are attracted to each other.
Nope. I just mean mean it’s totally OK to be attracted and so on. It’s less radical than you seem to think.
My original response didn’t disagree with that. I wasn’t objecting to the “incest is fine” part. I was specifically challenging ’...and is probably a good experience to have” as being an overgeneralization that is untrue for many, and probably, most people.
How is it different than saying “Sex is fine, and is probably a good experience to have” in response to puritanical notions about celibacy? Nowhere does it say it should be mandatory or that you absolutely have to have sex with anyone who asks.
“Sex (insert qualifiers of your choosing) is immoral” is a normative claim. ”Many people are not attracted to family members, and sex with an unattractive partner does not provide warm fuzzies” is an empirical claim.
“Sex is probably a good experience to have” is challenging the validity of the moral claim. ”Sex with people you aren’t attracted to is probably a good experience to have”… do I really need to provide further refutation once it’s stated like that?
The “incest isn’t wrong” position isn’t novel. The “everyone would be better off if they did” is novel, and I confess I don’t understand it at all. Not everyone is attracted to close family members.
I agree with the first half, but would have phrased the second half as “the ban on computer-generated child pornography should be reversed and indeed subsidized to crowd out pornography using real children”.
Really? What about for people who don’t have access to emergency birth control? Or who were unlucky enough to be raped by someone with an STD? Or who live in a society that murders women who get raped as adulterers? Or just in a society that tends to divide women into “good girls” and “sluts”? (Maybe you meant society’s self-fulfilling prophecy in the latter two examples, but it’s not the woman’s self-fulfilling prophecy.)
*Yes, I know men get raped too. That’s pretty clearly not the context when people bring this argument up, however.
Judging them for what? Doesn’t work for suitability as an underwear model, for example.
And not everyone is attracted to everyone else, but I see no reason not to be close with your family in this way.
Why so conservative? How is child porn different from child acting? Assuming consent and all that.
Yes, in third world countries, butthurt is not the primary damage caused by rape. I mean in cases without lasting physical effects. Maybe I should have been more clear?
pretty much anything besides being an underwear model. Likelyhood to start a fight. Expected value as an employee in most jobs. Intellectual capacity.
Come to think of it, the correlates of race are mostly covered by class and subculture.
For some, the prevalent notion of “rape is something that doesn’t happen to men” seems to make the feelings of shame after being raped even worse. Female rape is commonly considered horrific and something where the victim needs support; male rape isn’t always even acknowledged as something that exists.
See e.g. The Rape of Men.
(Things are probably somewhat better in the Western world, but it’s the Western organizations that are helping perpetuate the “men aren’t raped” idea, so not necessarily that much better.)
Wait… what?
I may not be tracking, here. Are you suggesting that as a class, men who are raped aren’t as emotionally affected as women who are raped? Or that if they are, it’s for some reason other than social encouragement? Something else?
I was suggesting that men don’t have the constant bombardment of “if you got raped, you should feel bad”. There is some of that, but not as much and somewhat balanced by other parts of male culture like being looked down on for being emotionally affected by things: “man up and move on” and such.
On second thought, I don’t know why I even wrote that, and it detracts form the rest, so I’ll remove it.
Hang on a minute. This a prime hypothesis testing space! If you really think that anti-rape messaging makes post-rape experience worse, it surely follows that it must be worse for women than for men, this messaging being mostly aimed at women. So you can quite conveniently check your theory by comparing the incidence of ptsd, depression, etc in male and female rape survivors.
No need to keep this as a controversial suspicion or instinct, you’d be armed with real knowledge! Knowledge you can report back to us, and anyone else you may have discussed this issue with. Indeed I think you could cultivate a useful reputation for open mindedness and rationality if you went back to any place you’d seen this attitude expressed before, and shared your findings -positive or negative- with them.
There are a lot of confounding factors hereabouts.
Yea, and doing a proper double blind test would pretty much be the least likely thing ever to pass any ethics committee.
Not necessarily. If male rape is not acknowledged at all, it can be much harder to talk about it and heal.
Well, yes, that”s the point. To figure out whether this comes out positive or negative.
Well, right, I understood that much. But you seemed to be arguing that such bombardment is causal to women feeling bad about being raped… that is, if it weren’t for that bombardment, they wouldn’t feel bad. So it seems to follow that you would expect men not to feel bad about being raped, since they don’t receive that bombardment.
That’s what confused me… your whole argument seems to hang together only if I assume that men in fact don’t feel bad when they’ve been raped (which sure isn’t my experience, not that I’m any sort of expert) so I was trying to confirm whether you were in fact assuming that.
Only partially. Obviously bad shit makes you feel bad, whether or not you have memes about it, but the hypothesis is that bad shit plus being encouraged to feel bad about it makes it worse.
men don’t recieve as much “you should feel bad and let it define your life” but as another user pointed out, it is also not socially acceptable to have been raped, so there is no chance to talk about it and heal.
Well I didn’t intend that particular assumption, or at least I don’t anymore. A better comparison to investigate would be how people react to being beaten or robbed.
Expressing a controversial opinion doesn’t condone being immature or disrespectful.
Beyond that, I have two questions for you:
1) How much confidence do you place in your statement on the impact of female rape in first-world countries?
2) If the answer to (1) is greater than “very little”, on what sort of direct or indirect knowledge of the phenomenon do you base this confidence?
U mad?
More seriously, you’re right, I could have used a better word.
Which statement?
Lower than it was when I posted it, but it seems plausible enough to be worth discussing.
I would now dispute the use of ‘most’.
observations of cultural memes, seeing how people talk about it with victims, seeing how role models talk about it, and observations of people dealing with similar but unrelated pressures.
All of this is very easily screened off by closer evidence, I would like to see some more solid studies or more stories at least.
I still don’t get it, and am genuinely trying to figure out what the inferential gap is. It sort of sounds like you’re saying sex produces the warm fuzzies of closer social bonding regardless of whether the participants are attracted to each other.
If that is what you are saying, then that sounds like the typical mind fallacy at work. I, for one, would not get warm fuzzies from sex with someone unattractive whether they are related to me or not.
If that’s not what you are saying, please clarify.
Nope. I just mean mean it’s totally OK to be attracted and so on. It’s less radical than you seem to think.
My original response didn’t disagree with that. I wasn’t objecting to the “incest is fine” part. I was specifically challenging ’...and is probably a good experience to have” as being an overgeneralization that is untrue for many, and probably, most people.
How is it different than saying “Sex is fine, and is probably a good experience to have” in response to puritanical notions about celibacy? Nowhere does it say it should be mandatory or that you absolutely have to have sex with anyone who asks.
“Sex (insert qualifiers of your choosing) is immoral” is a normative claim.
”Many people are not attracted to family members, and sex with an unattractive partner does not provide warm fuzzies” is an empirical claim.
“Sex is probably a good experience to have” is challenging the validity of the moral claim.
”Sex with people you aren’t attracted to is probably a good experience to have”… do I really need to provide further refutation once it’s stated like that?
No, that more the domain of prisons.