Anyways, if the obvious answer is incorrect, we ought to figure out which Hogwarts staff-member has been going around casting memory charms. Now Dumbledore did specifically say “professor” and I doubt that he misspoke, so we can discount Hagrid, Pomffery, etc. So:
Bathsheda Babbling, Ancient Runes. (Never mentioned in books, probably unkown to Eliezer)
Now, there is one possibility I don’t think anyone has brought up yet. H&C could simply be the unwilling pawn anyone capable of using the Imperius, This explains how he/she can have quite brilliant long-term plans, given to them by their puppet-master, but make a few simple mistakes when on their own (Like taking so long to crack Hermione).
Now, we know that Hermione recognized and was very shocked by whomever she saw beneath H&C’s disguise, which suggests it was someone she actually knew rather than a professor she occasionally caught sight of at dinner. First years take Astronomy, Charms, Battle Magic, Herbology, History of Magic, Potions, and Transfiguration. We can safely eliminate Quirrell, Snape, Binns and McGonagall from being imperiused, leaving Flitwick, Sprout, and Sinistra.
The inefficiency of H&C’s attack against Hermione’s mind is not evidence of a “simple mistake” on his/her part, but rather exceptional cleverness. Note that this attack has replaced something that would be detected (Legilimency) with something that cannot be (Obliviation). I myself take this as further evidence that H&C is Quirrell.
Using obliviation wasn’t a bad move, but H&C used it poorly. More specifically, he used exactly the same disguise he was running around in when manipulating Zabini, when a great manipulator would certainly change their appearance to suit the situation. Not to mention the entirety of his conversation with Hermione strikes me as, well, clumsy. Professor Quirrell can convince most people of most things without multiple trials, and even if he modeled Hermione as putting on a show of goodness H&C’s methods are not the ideal way to convince someone like that.
Quirrell does not normally have the luxury of obliviation, yet I have no doubt he could have convinced Hermione entirely without it. If he did use it, it would not be enough that she would start to feel tired. He’s too good.
Not to mention the entirety of his conversation with Hermione strikes me as, well, clumsy. Professor Quirrell can convince most people of most things without multiple trials, and even if he modeled Hermione as putting on a show of goodness H&C’s methods are not the ideal way to convince someone like that.
Experiments that involve talking may superficially resemble clumsy attempts at persuasion. The objective of those sessions was probably not persuasion, so judging their effectiveness by optimality with respect to that criterion is wrong. The objective was probably to map the dynamic of Hermione’s thinking. Gaining unlikely powers of persuasion eventually is one possible product of this process, but not its character.
I read H&C’s frustration in 77 as genuine, which argues for genuine clumsiness. It does seem to have been decisive in getting Hermione to open up about her misgivings, which could argue back in the other direction, but that’s not the only place in the dialogue where H&C seems to fit poorly into their role, and the others are all dead ends. In any case, failing to consider surface appearances—when dealing with a twelve-year-old, however bright—is really a fairly basic mistake, and one that I’d consider out of character for both Quirrell (who has a fine grasp of psychology) and Dumbledore (who’s all about narrative conventions and would probably have gone straight to the fairy godmother guise).
I truly find it odd that no one considers that the evidence was given directly within the text.
“Because you look incredibly dark and scary and suspicious,” Hermione said, keeping her voice polite, as her wand stayed level on the towering black cloak and the faceless black mist.
“That’s all?” whispered the voice incredulously. Sadness seemed to infuse it. “I hoped for better from you, Hermione. Surely such a Ravenclaw as you, the most intelligent Ravenclaw to grace Hogwarts in a generation, knows that appearances can be misleading.”
“Oh, I know it,” said Hermione. She took another step back, her tired fingers tightening on the wand. “But the thing that people forget sometimes, is that even though appearances can be misleading, they’re usually not.”
It’s very possible that H&C thought that if ve showed up looking like a fairy godmother, Hermione would think that ve is trying to hide their true nature behind a pleasant mask. Harry certainly would. On the other hand, by openly appearing “incredibly suspicious,” Hermione might put aside her doubts with the thought that appearance are deceiving, perhaps in a manner similar to how Quirrell told Harry that as long as he appears ambiguous, people of every stripe will follow him. Ve was wrong in this case, obviously, but just because a choice is wrong doesn’t mean it was a stupid one, anymore than a choice being right means it was a smart one.
These are good observations. However, I think you are inferring plot points from what is merely literary technique. H&C using the same disguise is well explained by EY intending us to identify Hermione’s manipulator with Zabini’s. Similarly, the many attempts/Hermione’s exhaustion are well explained if EY wants to make it clear what the nature of the attack is without spelling it out explicitly.
I don’t believe that one of the professors who have never appeared onstage in HPMOR could be revealed to play such a central role. Also not those who have appeared very marginally and have not been actually characterized (Flitwick, Trelawney). We also have no reason to attribute motive to one of them.
Minerva is, as you say, definitely innocent—because we have a scene from her POV.
This leaves, for practical purposes, only Snape and Dumbledore. It’s not impossible for there to be a reveal of either one, but the obvious answer is indeed obvious. Nevertheless:
Snape is suitably evil, smart, and with reason to hurt Quirrel (he’s afraid of him), possibly Harry (after their talk about James Potter), possibly Draco (private war against remaining Death Eater factions or bad blood against Malfoys), and no reason for Hermione that I can think of.
Dumbledore… It doesn’t seem his style, does it? :-) Certainly if he take him at his word, he believes this to be a heavy blow against himself and Harry. He could have a motive yet to be revealed, but I don’t believe this is possible in a story-management sense.
Well if she did so and didn’t use a Pensieve then we’ll never find out. I don’t believe this can happen, and she’s also not characterized in a way that would allow her to be this smart or this evil.
Also not those who have appeared very marginally and have not been actually characterized (Flitwick, Trelawney). We also have no reason to attribute motive to one of them.
How’s their motive relevant if they’re under imperious?
You’re right, the Hogwarts wards don’t detect or prevent Imperius cast by and on professors. That actually makes sense to add extra deniability for Quirrel (or whoever is controlling them). Edit: either I didn’t see this part of the grandparent or I didn’t realize the implications.
However, either the Imperius must be maintained indefinitely: too much risk of being found out one day? If something happens to the controlling character, short of death, does it provoke a Will save and break the Imperius? If the controlled character is examined, especially by a Legilemens, the Imperius would definitely be found out but would the controller be identified? Does someone being controlled necessarily know who the controller is?
Or it would be maintained for only brief periods, each time erasing the target’s memory of being controlled.
Note 1: Lucius claims to have been Imperiused for years by Voldemort with at least some plausibility, so presumably all of this is surmountable.
Note 2: an Imperiused professor could be ordered to self-erase memories after each time they executed orders from the controller, so the two don’t even need to meet to coordinate (pure mental control).
This looks like a game-breaking spell. A very powerful wizard who has infiltrated the enemy camp should carry out all of his actions via Imperiused agents. Are there any limitations? For instance, does maintaining an Imperius take up a piece of the controller’s magic for the duration? How does one break it if one has captured a controlled piece but cannot face the controller directly? Inquiring minds want to know :-)
Snape is suitably evil, smart, and with reason to hurt … Harry (after their talk about James Potter), …
See, I have trouble with that, mainly because it’s been established that he’s still in love with Lily Potter (which is why Harry’s advice was so cutting), and hurting her only son would fall counter to that.
I dunno, I always read that conversation (and the subsequent scenes from Snape’s POV) as indicating that Harry actually succeeded in convincing Snape that Lily wasn’t all that great and that his carrying that particular torch for so long was pathetic.
In the process cutting the only tie holding Snape to the Light.
Maybe. On the other hand . . . maybe actually winning Snape to Harry’s side.
Ch 76 - “I have had two mentors, over the course of my days. Both were extraordinarily perceptive, and neither one ever told me the things I wasn’t seeing. It’s clear enough why the first said nothing, but the second...” Snape’s face tightened. “I suppose I would have to be naive, to ask why he stayed silent.”
Let us assume that Snape no longer has any reason to be loyal to Dumbledore. Then where does Snape turn next? Back to Voldemort? MoR!Voldemort, who is not nearly the idiot Canon!Voldemort was (and thus far less likely to trust Snape), who killed Lily despite knowing how important Lily was to Snape, and who with no question would only be using him?
If that were the only alternative to Dumbledore, perhaps. But it isn’t.
No, Snape has an alternative. Someone who confronts bullies, instead of leading or tolerating them. Someone who told him the truth, rather than leave him in a fog of lies. Someone of demonstrated intelligence and power. Someone who has already bested Voldemort.
Snape of course cannot bear, in pride, to simply and openly take up the banner of the alternative. But he can at least take up the role of protector of the boy, who really is not particularly like his father.
Ch 76 - “I have had two mentors, over the course of my days. Both were extraordinarily perceptive, and neither one ever told me the things I wasn’t seeing. It’s clear enough why the first said nothing, but the second...” Snape’s face tightened. “I suppose I would have to be naive, to ask why he stayed silent.”
I’ve actually wondered which mentor is which, in Snape’s telling: my guess is that the first one is Voldemort, and that Snape thinks it’s “clear enough” that Voldemort didn’t tell him Lily was shallow because he either didn’t know or didn’t care. The second one is Dumbledore, who didn’t tell him Lily was shallow because Snape was only useful to him as long as he still loved her. And Snape would have to be naive to ask why Dumbledore stayed silent, when it’s obvious that speaking up could only weaken Snape’s loyalty.
If the first mentor is Voldemort and the second Dumbledore, it’s interesting that he speaks of both in the past tense.
Then where does Snape turn next?
Why does he have to turn somewhere? Can’t he hide, run, sit out the next war, and not risk his life for anyone he doesn’t like? Can’t he start living his own life for a change? :-)
There’s no way either Voldemort or (for example, on the other side) Moody will possibly believe that it’s safe to let a Slytherin (ambition!) who has been so high in the counsels of each side to run around free, perhaps plotting to stick his oar in at just the right moment to tip things.
Is there a hole deep enough to hide in?
That leaves allying with someone who can play on the Voldemort/Dumbledore level. There aren’t a lot of possible choices. Maybe Grindlewald, freed from prison, but he was hardly trustworthy. There might be a really, really powerful witch in India we’ve never heard of, but that would be bad fiction writing. Who else is there?
If Snape can overcome his prejudices, the logical choice of ally is Harry Potter.
That is the logical conclusion your sympathies incline you to. I suspect that what Snape sees in HP is at best a future Dumbledore, and quite possibly simply voldy V 2.0 Why the heck sign up for being manipulated and a pawn a third time? Uh-uh.
But this may entirely explain what the heck he was/is doing with SPHEW. He picked Hermonie as the potential future ally least likely to stab him in the back when convenient, and SPHEW as the bet least dependant on a single individual. (Because it is an idea. The idea that everyone can stand up and do the right thing.)
From Snape’s POV, Harry’s camp is Dumbledore’s camp—to be around Harry he’d have to keep on being a Professor at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore will make sure he’s his piece if he’s on his home turf. Harry won’t have his own proper camp for years yet, not something he could defend against Voldermort-level opponents by his and his allies’ own magic power.
There’s another reason: (edit: as far as Snape knows...) Harry doesn’t know Snape was a Death Eater, a double agent, and the one responsible for delivering the prophecy to Voldemort! If Snape moves openly to support Harry where this doesn’t mean supporting Dumbledore, then Dumbledore will warn Harry against him by revealing Snape’s past, and Harry won’t ever trust Snape after that. The impression Snape created in his last private conversation with Harry was bad enough.
Even if Snape merely tries to approach Harry privately, Harry will want to ask him questions about the last war. How did his parents die? What does the prophecy say? How did Dumbledore manage the last war? He’ll be asking because Snape was there, but true answers will cast Snape in a very bad light.
Harry doesn’t know Snape was a Death Eater, a double agent, and the one responsible for delivering the prophecy to Voldemort!
Harry figured this out at the bottom of chapter 46, Aftermath Minerva McGonagall. Three people know. Dumbledore had to not learn first, because then he would only tell the one person who would set the trap (Snape) and only two people would know of the prophecy instead of three. So Harry correctly deduces that McGonagall learned first and told Dumbledore who told Snape who told the dark lord.
Whether or not Snape knows that Harry knows, we can’t be sure. However, he does know that Harry knows who knows the prophecy. Given just this information he is aware that Harry could deduce that Snape was the mole who helped trap Voldemort. If it seems a little farfetched for everyone to be so smart, I will note that Slytherin House practically recreated the entire scenario, minus the exact specific details, of Harry’s blackmail of Snape after one day. Snape would be used to this level of deduction and plotting in his students.
Actually, I think the Slytherin students reasoned rationally yet happened not to get the right answer.
Slytherin thinks that Snape can get away with being horrible because he’s blackmailing Dumbledore, that Harry found out how Snape is blackmailing D, and that D now has to try to please both of them.
In actuality, Snape is horrible at Dumbledore’s direction, in order that everyone think Snape is blackmailing him, when actually Snape is really on Dumbledore’s side (chapter 77). (Or at least D thinks so, based on love-for-Lily.) But Dumbledore really does have to keep Harry happy to some extent, so he directs Snape to be horrible to only half the students. Then D can maintain the fiction that Snape is blackmailing him, and can pretend that Harry is now blackmailing him too by finding out the same secret Snape has.
D plays along with Harry’s guess that he wants an evil potions master, so that he doesn’t have to tell Harry that Snape is secretly on his side.
Although Harry was a little wrong; Snape overheard the prophecy, he wasn’t given it by Dumbledore. I don’t even know if he was a double agent at that point, or just a simple agent for Voldermort in Dumbledore’s camp. He only really went over to Dumbledore’s camp because 1) Lily was killed and 2) Voldermort died.
Whether or not Snape knows that Harry knows, we can’t be sure. However, he does know that Harry knows who knows the prophecy.
There are other explanations that Snape might present for that. For instance, he might claim to Harry that Voldemort told all his top lieutenants about the prophecy before attacking the Potters. The major danger to Snape is a reveal from Dumbledore.
Sure, on the gross level it’s just swapping out “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s where he can watch over his lost love’s son” to “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s where he can watch over someone who might be in his own long-term rational self-interest to support.”
He may have quit loving Lily, but Snape instigated his anti-bullying scheme after his conversation with Harry. I’d say the conversation shocked him out of self-pity and into action, and the action was more or less Good.
I was more offended on Snape’s behalf at what Rowling did to him than rejecting Snape. My suspension of belief was suspended. The judgments I make reading known a known fictional story and living in a story myself aren’t the same.
Although I admit to feeling something of the impulse, watching the world, to judge it as if it had an author, and take offense at some of the plot points. I suppose it’s a cognitive dissonance between what I in general value, and what in a particular instance turned out to be valuable. I don’t expect the universe to be fair, but I am disgruntled when it seems perverse.
I agree that it’s unlikely. OTOH he isn’t hurting him personally and directly by taking out Hermione. He may just not appreciate how important she is to him emotionally.
He’s more than capable of defending himself, and given that he’s probably keyed into the wards at a level just below McGonnagal , it would be a huge security hole if he was easily imperiused.
Flitwick would be beaten in a fight by Quirrelmort, who is both more powerful in raw magic and laughs scornfully at formal dueling rules. He could be taken by surprise as well, or fall into a magical trap, given that Quirrelmort has free access to premises.
Being Imperiused by Quirrelmort isn’t the same as being easily Imperiused at all.
I don’t get the sense that McGonnagal is unusually powerful or hard to Imperius, anyway. She’s just as much of a candidate as Flitwick.
However, since Hermione was terrified to see the (presumed) real face of H&C… The obvious solution seems ever more obvious. (And Eliezer’s last two Author’s Notes seemed to suggest it as well, but that is just my interpretation. I was wrong when I stated that he “practically confirmed it” earlier.)
However, since Hermione was terrified to see the (presumed) real face of H&C… The obvious solution seems ever more obvious. (And Word of God practically confirmed it!)
OK, not as much as I seemed to imply. You’re right to call me on it (will edited parent comment).
I was thinking about the Author’s Notes for the last two chapters talking about how readers disregard the obvious interpretation, how sometimes when something’s clear enough there isn’t a twist waiting to be revealed, etc. For some reason when I wrote the comment above, my brain turned that (plus the confirmation of a Quirrel-Voldemort connection) into “confirmation of a Quirrel plot behind current events”. Sorry.
Technically it was McGonagall who said “only a Professor could have cast that spell upon a student without alarm from the Hogwarts wards.” but I think it equally unlikely that she misspoke. Dumbledore certainly didn’t correct her.
When Hermione saw H&C without the obscuring black mist the “recognition sent a jolt of terrified adrenaline bursting through her” The only person on your list that fits that description is Snape.
Anyways, if the obvious answer is incorrect, we ought to figure out which Hogwarts staff-member has been going around casting memory charms. Now Dumbledore did specifically say “professor” and I doubt that he misspoke, so we can discount Hagrid, Pomffery, etc. So:
Bathsheda Babbling, Ancient Runes. (Never mentioned in books, probably unkown to Eliezer)
Charity Burbage, Muggle Studies.
Filius Flitwick, Charms.
Silvanus Kettleburn, Care of Magical creatures.
Minerva McGonagall, Transfiguration. (Definitely innocent)
Aurora Sinistra, Astronomy.
Severus Snape, Potions.
Pomona Sprout, Herbology.
Sybill Trelawney, Divination.
Septima Vector, Arithmancy.
Albus Dumbledore.
Now, there is one possibility I don’t think anyone has brought up yet. H&C could simply be the unwilling pawn anyone capable of using the Imperius, This explains how he/she can have quite brilliant long-term plans, given to them by their puppet-master, but make a few simple mistakes when on their own (Like taking so long to crack Hermione).
Now, we know that Hermione recognized and was very shocked by whomever she saw beneath H&C’s disguise, which suggests it was someone she actually knew rather than a professor she occasionally caught sight of at dinner. First years take Astronomy, Charms, Battle Magic, Herbology, History of Magic, Potions, and Transfiguration. We can safely eliminate Quirrell, Snape, Binns and McGonagall from being imperiused, leaving Flitwick, Sprout, and Sinistra.
The inefficiency of H&C’s attack against Hermione’s mind is not evidence of a “simple mistake” on his/her part, but rather exceptional cleverness. Note that this attack has replaced something that would be detected (Legilimency) with something that cannot be (Obliviation). I myself take this as further evidence that H&C is Quirrell.
Were there other mistakes you had in mind?
Using obliviation wasn’t a bad move, but H&C used it poorly. More specifically, he used exactly the same disguise he was running around in when manipulating Zabini, when a great manipulator would certainly change their appearance to suit the situation. Not to mention the entirety of his conversation with Hermione strikes me as, well, clumsy. Professor Quirrell can convince most people of most things without multiple trials, and even if he modeled Hermione as putting on a show of goodness H&C’s methods are not the ideal way to convince someone like that.
Quirrell does not normally have the luxury of obliviation, yet I have no doubt he could have convinced Hermione entirely without it. If he did use it, it would not be enough that she would start to feel tired. He’s too good.
Experiments that involve talking may superficially resemble clumsy attempts at persuasion. The objective of those sessions was probably not persuasion, so judging their effectiveness by optimality with respect to that criterion is wrong. The objective was probably to map the dynamic of Hermione’s thinking. Gaining unlikely powers of persuasion eventually is one possible product of this process, but not its character.
I read H&C’s frustration in 77 as genuine, which argues for genuine clumsiness. It does seem to have been decisive in getting Hermione to open up about her misgivings, which could argue back in the other direction, but that’s not the only place in the dialogue where H&C seems to fit poorly into their role, and the others are all dead ends. In any case, failing to consider surface appearances—when dealing with a twelve-year-old, however bright—is really a fairly basic mistake, and one that I’d consider out of character for both Quirrell (who has a fine grasp of psychology) and Dumbledore (who’s all about narrative conventions and would probably have gone straight to the fairy godmother guise).
I truly find it odd that no one considers that the evidence was given directly within the text.
It’s very possible that H&C thought that if ve showed up looking like a fairy godmother, Hermione would think that ve is trying to hide their true nature behind a pleasant mask. Harry certainly would. On the other hand, by openly appearing “incredibly suspicious,” Hermione might put aside her doubts with the thought that appearance are deceiving, perhaps in a manner similar to how Quirrell told Harry that as long as he appears ambiguous, people of every stripe will follow him. Ve was wrong in this case, obviously, but just because a choice is wrong doesn’t mean it was a stupid one, anymore than a choice being right means it was a smart one.
These are good observations. However, I think you are inferring plot points from what is merely literary technique. H&C using the same disguise is well explained by EY intending us to identify Hermione’s manipulator with Zabini’s. Similarly, the many attempts/Hermione’s exhaustion are well explained if EY wants to make it clear what the nature of the attack is without spelling it out explicitly.
I don’t believe that one of the professors who have never appeared onstage in HPMOR could be revealed to play such a central role. Also not those who have appeared very marginally and have not been actually characterized (Flitwick, Trelawney). We also have no reason to attribute motive to one of them.
Minerva is, as you say, definitely innocent—because we have a scene from her POV.
This leaves, for practical purposes, only Snape and Dumbledore. It’s not impossible for there to be a reveal of either one, but the obvious answer is indeed obvious. Nevertheless:
Snape is suitably evil, smart, and with reason to hurt Quirrel (he’s afraid of him), possibly Harry (after their talk about James Potter), possibly Draco (private war against remaining Death Eater factions or bad blood against Malfoys), and no reason for Hermione that I can think of.
Dumbledore… It doesn’t seem his style, does it? :-) Certainly if he take him at his word, he believes this to be a heavy blow against himself and Harry. He could have a motive yet to be revealed, but I don’t believe this is possible in a story-management sense.
She could have edited her own mind afterward, as a protection against Legilimency/Veritaserum/etc.
Well if she did so and didn’t use a Pensieve then we’ll never find out. I don’t believe this can happen, and she’s also not characterized in a way that would allow her to be this smart or this evil.
How’s their motive relevant if they’re under imperious?
You’re right, the Hogwarts wards don’t detect or prevent Imperius cast by and on professors. That actually makes sense to add extra deniability for Quirrel (or whoever is controlling them). Edit: either I didn’t see this part of the grandparent or I didn’t realize the implications.
However, either the Imperius must be maintained indefinitely: too much risk of being found out one day? If something happens to the controlling character, short of death, does it provoke a Will save and break the Imperius? If the controlled character is examined, especially by a Legilemens, the Imperius would definitely be found out but would the controller be identified? Does someone being controlled necessarily know who the controller is?
Or it would be maintained for only brief periods, each time erasing the target’s memory of being controlled.
Note 1: Lucius claims to have been Imperiused for years by Voldemort with at least some plausibility, so presumably all of this is surmountable.
Note 2: an Imperiused professor could be ordered to self-erase memories after each time they executed orders from the controller, so the two don’t even need to meet to coordinate (pure mental control).
This looks like a game-breaking spell. A very powerful wizard who has infiltrated the enemy camp should carry out all of his actions via Imperiused agents. Are there any limitations? For instance, does maintaining an Imperius take up a piece of the controller’s magic for the duration? How does one break it if one has captured a controlled piece but cannot face the controller directly? Inquiring minds want to know :-)
See, I have trouble with that, mainly because it’s been established that he’s still in love with Lily Potter (which is why Harry’s advice was so cutting), and hurting her only son would fall counter to that.
I dunno, I always read that conversation (and the subsequent scenes from Snape’s POV) as indicating that Harry actually succeeded in convincing Snape that Lily wasn’t all that great and that his carrying that particular torch for so long was pathetic.
In the process cutting the only tie holding Snape to the Light.
Oops.
Maybe. On the other hand . . . maybe actually winning Snape to Harry’s side.
Ch 76 - “I have had two mentors, over the course of my days. Both were extraordinarily perceptive, and neither one ever told me the things I wasn’t seeing. It’s clear enough why the first said nothing, but the second...” Snape’s face tightened. “I suppose I would have to be naive, to ask why he stayed silent.”
Let us assume that Snape no longer has any reason to be loyal to Dumbledore. Then where does Snape turn next? Back to Voldemort? MoR!Voldemort, who is not nearly the idiot Canon!Voldemort was (and thus far less likely to trust Snape), who killed Lily despite knowing how important Lily was to Snape, and who with no question would only be using him?
If that were the only alternative to Dumbledore, perhaps. But it isn’t.
No, Snape has an alternative. Someone who confronts bullies, instead of leading or tolerating them. Someone who told him the truth, rather than leave him in a fog of lies. Someone of demonstrated intelligence and power. Someone who has already bested Voldemort.
Snape of course cannot bear, in pride, to simply and openly take up the banner of the alternative. But he can at least take up the role of protector of the boy, who really is not particularly like his father.
I’ve actually wondered which mentor is which, in Snape’s telling: my guess is that the first one is Voldemort, and that Snape thinks it’s “clear enough” that Voldemort didn’t tell him Lily was shallow because he either didn’t know or didn’t care. The second one is Dumbledore, who didn’t tell him Lily was shallow because Snape was only useful to him as long as he still loved her. And Snape would have to be naive to ask why Dumbledore stayed silent, when it’s obvious that speaking up could only weaken Snape’s loyalty.
If the first mentor is Voldemort and the second Dumbledore, it’s interesting that he speaks of both in the past tense.
Why does he have to turn somewhere? Can’t he hide, run, sit out the next war, and not risk his life for anyone he doesn’t like? Can’t he start living his own life for a change? :-)
There’s no way either Voldemort or (for example, on the other side) Moody will possibly believe that it’s safe to let a Slytherin (ambition!) who has been so high in the counsels of each side to run around free, perhaps plotting to stick his oar in at just the right moment to tip things.
Is there a hole deep enough to hide in?
That leaves allying with someone who can play on the Voldemort/Dumbledore level. There aren’t a lot of possible choices. Maybe Grindlewald, freed from prison, but he was hardly trustworthy. There might be a really, really powerful witch in India we’ve never heard of, but that would be bad fiction writing. Who else is there?
If Snape can overcome his prejudices, the logical choice of ally is Harry Potter.
That is the logical conclusion your sympathies incline you to. I suspect that what Snape sees in HP is at best a future Dumbledore, and quite possibly simply voldy V 2.0 Why the heck sign up for being manipulated and a pawn a third time? Uh-uh. But this may entirely explain what the heck he was/is doing with SPHEW. He picked Hermonie as the potential future ally least likely to stab him in the back when convenient, and SPHEW as the bet least dependant on a single individual. (Because it is an idea. The idea that everyone can stand up and do the right thing.)
Without telling anyone. Which is hilarious.
If there wasn’t a prophecy directed personally to Snape that made him believe that the ultimate choices are either Voldemort or Harry, maybe.
From Snape’s POV, Harry’s camp is Dumbledore’s camp—to be around Harry he’d have to keep on being a Professor at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore will make sure he’s his piece if he’s on his home turf. Harry won’t have his own proper camp for years yet, not something he could defend against Voldermort-level opponents by his and his allies’ own magic power.
There’s another reason: (edit: as far as Snape knows...) Harry doesn’t know Snape was a Death Eater, a double agent, and the one responsible for delivering the prophecy to Voldemort! If Snape moves openly to support Harry where this doesn’t mean supporting Dumbledore, then Dumbledore will warn Harry against him by revealing Snape’s past, and Harry won’t ever trust Snape after that. The impression Snape created in his last private conversation with Harry was bad enough.
Even if Snape merely tries to approach Harry privately, Harry will want to ask him questions about the last war. How did his parents die? What does the prophecy say? How did Dumbledore manage the last war? He’ll be asking because Snape was there, but true answers will cast Snape in a very bad light.
Harry figured this out at the bottom of chapter 46, Aftermath Minerva McGonagall. Three people know. Dumbledore had to not learn first, because then he would only tell the one person who would set the trap (Snape) and only two people would know of the prophecy instead of three. So Harry correctly deduces that McGonagall learned first and told Dumbledore who told Snape who told the dark lord.
Whether or not Snape knows that Harry knows, we can’t be sure. However, he does know that Harry knows who knows the prophecy. Given just this information he is aware that Harry could deduce that Snape was the mole who helped trap Voldemort. If it seems a little farfetched for everyone to be so smart, I will note that Slytherin House practically recreated the entire scenario, minus the exact specific details, of Harry’s blackmail of Snape after one day. Snape would be used to this level of deduction and plotting in his students.
Actually, I think the Slytherin students reasoned rationally yet happened not to get the right answer.
Slytherin thinks that Snape can get away with being horrible because he’s blackmailing Dumbledore, that Harry found out how Snape is blackmailing D, and that D now has to try to please both of them.
In actuality, Snape is horrible at Dumbledore’s direction, in order that everyone think Snape is blackmailing him, when actually Snape is really on Dumbledore’s side (chapter 77). (Or at least D thinks so, based on love-for-Lily.) But Dumbledore really does have to keep Harry happy to some extent, so he directs Snape to be horrible to only half the students. Then D can maintain the fiction that Snape is blackmailing him, and can pretend that Harry is now blackmailing him too by finding out the same secret Snape has.
D plays along with Harry’s guess that he wants an evil potions master, so that he doesn’t have to tell Harry that Snape is secretly on his side.
Good catch.
Although Harry was a little wrong; Snape overheard the prophecy, he wasn’t given it by Dumbledore. I don’t even know if he was a double agent at that point, or just a simple agent for Voldermort in Dumbledore’s camp. He only really went over to Dumbledore’s camp because 1) Lily was killed and 2) Voldermort died.
There are other explanations that Snape might present for that. For instance, he might claim to Harry that Voldemort told all his top lieutenants about the prophecy before attacking the Potters. The major danger to Snape is a reveal from Dumbledore.
Sure, on the gross level it’s just swapping out “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s where he can watch over his lost love’s son” to “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s where he can watch over someone who might be in his own long-term rational self-interest to support.”
Or more explicitly “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s the faction that won’t be evil to him, and being without a faction is too dangerous”.
You definitely put Quirrell’s offer to be an ally to Snape in a new light. He may be trying to prevent just that.
He may have quit loving Lily, but Snape instigated his anti-bullying scheme after his conversation with Harry. I’d say the conversation shocked him out of self-pity and into action, and the action was more or less Good.
I took it that way too.
Makes for an improved Snape, and an avoidance of the debacle in canon of the world being saved by creepy guy nursing a teenage crush for decades. Ugh.
Rationalist Hero Rule #43: don’t dismiss known saviors-of-the-world because of Ugh fields.
I was more offended on Snape’s behalf at what Rowling did to him than rejecting Snape. My suspension of belief was suspended. The judgments I make reading known a known fictional story and living in a story myself aren’t the same.
Although I admit to feeling something of the impulse, watching the world, to judge it as if it had an author, and take offense at some of the plot points. I suppose it’s a cognitive dissonance between what I in general value, and what in a particular instance turned out to be valuable. I don’t expect the universe to be fair, but I am disgruntled when it seems perverse.
I agree that it’s unlikely. OTOH he isn’t hurting him personally and directly by taking out Hermione. He may just not appreciate how important she is to him emotionally.
Flitwick is probably also out as an Imperius candidate, being a former international dueling champion and all.
How are the two connected?
He’s more than capable of defending himself, and given that he’s probably keyed into the wards at a level just below McGonnagal , it would be a huge security hole if he was easily imperiused.
Flitwick would be beaten in a fight by Quirrelmort, who is both more powerful in raw magic and laughs scornfully at formal dueling rules. He could be taken by surprise as well, or fall into a magical trap, given that Quirrelmort has free access to premises.
Being Imperiused by Quirrelmort isn’t the same as being easily Imperiused at all.
Well, given that we’re discussing alternatives to Quirrelmort, that doesn’t quite apply.
I’d be willing to wager that in MORverse Quirrelmort could imperius even Mc Gonnagal.
I don’t get the sense that McGonnagal is unusually powerful or hard to Imperius, anyway. She’s just as much of a candidate as Flitwick.
However, since Hermione was terrified to see the (presumed) real face of H&C… The obvious solution seems ever more obvious. (And Eliezer’s last two Author’s Notes seemed to suggest it as well, but that is just my interpretation. I was wrong when I stated that he “practically confirmed it” earlier.)
Where does Eliezer ‘practically’ confirm it?
OK, not as much as I seemed to imply. You’re right to call me on it (will edited parent comment).
I was thinking about the Author’s Notes for the last two chapters talking about how readers disregard the obvious interpretation, how sometimes when something’s clear enough there isn’t a twist waiting to be revealed, etc. For some reason when I wrote the comment above, my brain turned that (plus the confirmation of a Quirrel-Voldemort connection) into “confirmation of a Quirrel plot behind current events”. Sorry.
I would not take that as a reason to think that person is unknown to Eliezer—he’s well-versed in both HP fanfiction and wiki.
Technically it was McGonagall who said “only a Professor could have cast that spell upon a student without alarm from the Hogwarts wards.” but I think it equally unlikely that she misspoke. Dumbledore certainly didn’t correct her.
When Hermione saw H&C without the obscuring black mist the “recognition sent a jolt of terrified adrenaline bursting through her” The only person on your list that fits that description is Snape.
Is there some particular reason you left Quirrell off the list?
The purpose of the list is to propose alternatives to Quirrell, who right now is the obvious candidate.
You should say that, then.
EDIT: Ah. Missed that on first reading.
First sentence… ‘If the obvious answer is incorrect,...’