I dunno, I always read that conversation (and the subsequent scenes from Snape’s POV) as indicating that Harry actually succeeded in convincing Snape that Lily wasn’t all that great and that his carrying that particular torch for so long was pathetic.
In the process cutting the only tie holding Snape to the Light.
Maybe. On the other hand . . . maybe actually winning Snape to Harry’s side.
Ch 76 - “I have had two mentors, over the course of my days. Both were extraordinarily perceptive, and neither one ever told me the things I wasn’t seeing. It’s clear enough why the first said nothing, but the second...” Snape’s face tightened. “I suppose I would have to be naive, to ask why he stayed silent.”
Let us assume that Snape no longer has any reason to be loyal to Dumbledore. Then where does Snape turn next? Back to Voldemort? MoR!Voldemort, who is not nearly the idiot Canon!Voldemort was (and thus far less likely to trust Snape), who killed Lily despite knowing how important Lily was to Snape, and who with no question would only be using him?
If that were the only alternative to Dumbledore, perhaps. But it isn’t.
No, Snape has an alternative. Someone who confronts bullies, instead of leading or tolerating them. Someone who told him the truth, rather than leave him in a fog of lies. Someone of demonstrated intelligence and power. Someone who has already bested Voldemort.
Snape of course cannot bear, in pride, to simply and openly take up the banner of the alternative. But he can at least take up the role of protector of the boy, who really is not particularly like his father.
Ch 76 - “I have had two mentors, over the course of my days. Both were extraordinarily perceptive, and neither one ever told me the things I wasn’t seeing. It’s clear enough why the first said nothing, but the second...” Snape’s face tightened. “I suppose I would have to be naive, to ask why he stayed silent.”
I’ve actually wondered which mentor is which, in Snape’s telling: my guess is that the first one is Voldemort, and that Snape thinks it’s “clear enough” that Voldemort didn’t tell him Lily was shallow because he either didn’t know or didn’t care. The second one is Dumbledore, who didn’t tell him Lily was shallow because Snape was only useful to him as long as he still loved her. And Snape would have to be naive to ask why Dumbledore stayed silent, when it’s obvious that speaking up could only weaken Snape’s loyalty.
If the first mentor is Voldemort and the second Dumbledore, it’s interesting that he speaks of both in the past tense.
Then where does Snape turn next?
Why does he have to turn somewhere? Can’t he hide, run, sit out the next war, and not risk his life for anyone he doesn’t like? Can’t he start living his own life for a change? :-)
There’s no way either Voldemort or (for example, on the other side) Moody will possibly believe that it’s safe to let a Slytherin (ambition!) who has been so high in the counsels of each side to run around free, perhaps plotting to stick his oar in at just the right moment to tip things.
Is there a hole deep enough to hide in?
That leaves allying with someone who can play on the Voldemort/Dumbledore level. There aren’t a lot of possible choices. Maybe Grindlewald, freed from prison, but he was hardly trustworthy. There might be a really, really powerful witch in India we’ve never heard of, but that would be bad fiction writing. Who else is there?
If Snape can overcome his prejudices, the logical choice of ally is Harry Potter.
That is the logical conclusion your sympathies incline you to. I suspect that what Snape sees in HP is at best a future Dumbledore, and quite possibly simply voldy V 2.0 Why the heck sign up for being manipulated and a pawn a third time? Uh-uh.
But this may entirely explain what the heck he was/is doing with SPHEW. He picked Hermonie as the potential future ally least likely to stab him in the back when convenient, and SPHEW as the bet least dependant on a single individual. (Because it is an idea. The idea that everyone can stand up and do the right thing.)
From Snape’s POV, Harry’s camp is Dumbledore’s camp—to be around Harry he’d have to keep on being a Professor at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore will make sure he’s his piece if he’s on his home turf. Harry won’t have his own proper camp for years yet, not something he could defend against Voldermort-level opponents by his and his allies’ own magic power.
There’s another reason: (edit: as far as Snape knows...) Harry doesn’t know Snape was a Death Eater, a double agent, and the one responsible for delivering the prophecy to Voldemort! If Snape moves openly to support Harry where this doesn’t mean supporting Dumbledore, then Dumbledore will warn Harry against him by revealing Snape’s past, and Harry won’t ever trust Snape after that. The impression Snape created in his last private conversation with Harry was bad enough.
Even if Snape merely tries to approach Harry privately, Harry will want to ask him questions about the last war. How did his parents die? What does the prophecy say? How did Dumbledore manage the last war? He’ll be asking because Snape was there, but true answers will cast Snape in a very bad light.
Harry doesn’t know Snape was a Death Eater, a double agent, and the one responsible for delivering the prophecy to Voldemort!
Harry figured this out at the bottom of chapter 46, Aftermath Minerva McGonagall. Three people know. Dumbledore had to not learn first, because then he would only tell the one person who would set the trap (Snape) and only two people would know of the prophecy instead of three. So Harry correctly deduces that McGonagall learned first and told Dumbledore who told Snape who told the dark lord.
Whether or not Snape knows that Harry knows, we can’t be sure. However, he does know that Harry knows who knows the prophecy. Given just this information he is aware that Harry could deduce that Snape was the mole who helped trap Voldemort. If it seems a little farfetched for everyone to be so smart, I will note that Slytherin House practically recreated the entire scenario, minus the exact specific details, of Harry’s blackmail of Snape after one day. Snape would be used to this level of deduction and plotting in his students.
Actually, I think the Slytherin students reasoned rationally yet happened not to get the right answer.
Slytherin thinks that Snape can get away with being horrible because he’s blackmailing Dumbledore, that Harry found out how Snape is blackmailing D, and that D now has to try to please both of them.
In actuality, Snape is horrible at Dumbledore’s direction, in order that everyone think Snape is blackmailing him, when actually Snape is really on Dumbledore’s side (chapter 77). (Or at least D thinks so, based on love-for-Lily.) But Dumbledore really does have to keep Harry happy to some extent, so he directs Snape to be horrible to only half the students. Then D can maintain the fiction that Snape is blackmailing him, and can pretend that Harry is now blackmailing him too by finding out the same secret Snape has.
D plays along with Harry’s guess that he wants an evil potions master, so that he doesn’t have to tell Harry that Snape is secretly on his side.
Although Harry was a little wrong; Snape overheard the prophecy, he wasn’t given it by Dumbledore. I don’t even know if he was a double agent at that point, or just a simple agent for Voldermort in Dumbledore’s camp. He only really went over to Dumbledore’s camp because 1) Lily was killed and 2) Voldermort died.
Whether or not Snape knows that Harry knows, we can’t be sure. However, he does know that Harry knows who knows the prophecy.
There are other explanations that Snape might present for that. For instance, he might claim to Harry that Voldemort told all his top lieutenants about the prophecy before attacking the Potters. The major danger to Snape is a reveal from Dumbledore.
Sure, on the gross level it’s just swapping out “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s where he can watch over his lost love’s son” to “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s where he can watch over someone who might be in his own long-term rational self-interest to support.”
He may have quit loving Lily, but Snape instigated his anti-bullying scheme after his conversation with Harry. I’d say the conversation shocked him out of self-pity and into action, and the action was more or less Good.
I was more offended on Snape’s behalf at what Rowling did to him than rejecting Snape. My suspension of belief was suspended. The judgments I make reading known a known fictional story and living in a story myself aren’t the same.
Although I admit to feeling something of the impulse, watching the world, to judge it as if it had an author, and take offense at some of the plot points. I suppose it’s a cognitive dissonance between what I in general value, and what in a particular instance turned out to be valuable. I don’t expect the universe to be fair, but I am disgruntled when it seems perverse.
I dunno, I always read that conversation (and the subsequent scenes from Snape’s POV) as indicating that Harry actually succeeded in convincing Snape that Lily wasn’t all that great and that his carrying that particular torch for so long was pathetic.
In the process cutting the only tie holding Snape to the Light.
Oops.
Maybe. On the other hand . . . maybe actually winning Snape to Harry’s side.
Ch 76 - “I have had two mentors, over the course of my days. Both were extraordinarily perceptive, and neither one ever told me the things I wasn’t seeing. It’s clear enough why the first said nothing, but the second...” Snape’s face tightened. “I suppose I would have to be naive, to ask why he stayed silent.”
Let us assume that Snape no longer has any reason to be loyal to Dumbledore. Then where does Snape turn next? Back to Voldemort? MoR!Voldemort, who is not nearly the idiot Canon!Voldemort was (and thus far less likely to trust Snape), who killed Lily despite knowing how important Lily was to Snape, and who with no question would only be using him?
If that were the only alternative to Dumbledore, perhaps. But it isn’t.
No, Snape has an alternative. Someone who confronts bullies, instead of leading or tolerating them. Someone who told him the truth, rather than leave him in a fog of lies. Someone of demonstrated intelligence and power. Someone who has already bested Voldemort.
Snape of course cannot bear, in pride, to simply and openly take up the banner of the alternative. But he can at least take up the role of protector of the boy, who really is not particularly like his father.
I’ve actually wondered which mentor is which, in Snape’s telling: my guess is that the first one is Voldemort, and that Snape thinks it’s “clear enough” that Voldemort didn’t tell him Lily was shallow because he either didn’t know or didn’t care. The second one is Dumbledore, who didn’t tell him Lily was shallow because Snape was only useful to him as long as he still loved her. And Snape would have to be naive to ask why Dumbledore stayed silent, when it’s obvious that speaking up could only weaken Snape’s loyalty.
If the first mentor is Voldemort and the second Dumbledore, it’s interesting that he speaks of both in the past tense.
Why does he have to turn somewhere? Can’t he hide, run, sit out the next war, and not risk his life for anyone he doesn’t like? Can’t he start living his own life for a change? :-)
There’s no way either Voldemort or (for example, on the other side) Moody will possibly believe that it’s safe to let a Slytherin (ambition!) who has been so high in the counsels of each side to run around free, perhaps plotting to stick his oar in at just the right moment to tip things.
Is there a hole deep enough to hide in?
That leaves allying with someone who can play on the Voldemort/Dumbledore level. There aren’t a lot of possible choices. Maybe Grindlewald, freed from prison, but he was hardly trustworthy. There might be a really, really powerful witch in India we’ve never heard of, but that would be bad fiction writing. Who else is there?
If Snape can overcome his prejudices, the logical choice of ally is Harry Potter.
That is the logical conclusion your sympathies incline you to. I suspect that what Snape sees in HP is at best a future Dumbledore, and quite possibly simply voldy V 2.0 Why the heck sign up for being manipulated and a pawn a third time? Uh-uh. But this may entirely explain what the heck he was/is doing with SPHEW. He picked Hermonie as the potential future ally least likely to stab him in the back when convenient, and SPHEW as the bet least dependant on a single individual. (Because it is an idea. The idea that everyone can stand up and do the right thing.)
Without telling anyone. Which is hilarious.
If there wasn’t a prophecy directed personally to Snape that made him believe that the ultimate choices are either Voldemort or Harry, maybe.
From Snape’s POV, Harry’s camp is Dumbledore’s camp—to be around Harry he’d have to keep on being a Professor at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore will make sure he’s his piece if he’s on his home turf. Harry won’t have his own proper camp for years yet, not something he could defend against Voldermort-level opponents by his and his allies’ own magic power.
There’s another reason: (edit: as far as Snape knows...) Harry doesn’t know Snape was a Death Eater, a double agent, and the one responsible for delivering the prophecy to Voldemort! If Snape moves openly to support Harry where this doesn’t mean supporting Dumbledore, then Dumbledore will warn Harry against him by revealing Snape’s past, and Harry won’t ever trust Snape after that. The impression Snape created in his last private conversation with Harry was bad enough.
Even if Snape merely tries to approach Harry privately, Harry will want to ask him questions about the last war. How did his parents die? What does the prophecy say? How did Dumbledore manage the last war? He’ll be asking because Snape was there, but true answers will cast Snape in a very bad light.
Harry figured this out at the bottom of chapter 46, Aftermath Minerva McGonagall. Three people know. Dumbledore had to not learn first, because then he would only tell the one person who would set the trap (Snape) and only two people would know of the prophecy instead of three. So Harry correctly deduces that McGonagall learned first and told Dumbledore who told Snape who told the dark lord.
Whether or not Snape knows that Harry knows, we can’t be sure. However, he does know that Harry knows who knows the prophecy. Given just this information he is aware that Harry could deduce that Snape was the mole who helped trap Voldemort. If it seems a little farfetched for everyone to be so smart, I will note that Slytherin House practically recreated the entire scenario, minus the exact specific details, of Harry’s blackmail of Snape after one day. Snape would be used to this level of deduction and plotting in his students.
Actually, I think the Slytherin students reasoned rationally yet happened not to get the right answer.
Slytherin thinks that Snape can get away with being horrible because he’s blackmailing Dumbledore, that Harry found out how Snape is blackmailing D, and that D now has to try to please both of them.
In actuality, Snape is horrible at Dumbledore’s direction, in order that everyone think Snape is blackmailing him, when actually Snape is really on Dumbledore’s side (chapter 77). (Or at least D thinks so, based on love-for-Lily.) But Dumbledore really does have to keep Harry happy to some extent, so he directs Snape to be horrible to only half the students. Then D can maintain the fiction that Snape is blackmailing him, and can pretend that Harry is now blackmailing him too by finding out the same secret Snape has.
D plays along with Harry’s guess that he wants an evil potions master, so that he doesn’t have to tell Harry that Snape is secretly on his side.
Good catch.
Although Harry was a little wrong; Snape overheard the prophecy, he wasn’t given it by Dumbledore. I don’t even know if he was a double agent at that point, or just a simple agent for Voldermort in Dumbledore’s camp. He only really went over to Dumbledore’s camp because 1) Lily was killed and 2) Voldermort died.
There are other explanations that Snape might present for that. For instance, he might claim to Harry that Voldemort told all his top lieutenants about the prophecy before attacking the Potters. The major danger to Snape is a reveal from Dumbledore.
Sure, on the gross level it’s just swapping out “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s where he can watch over his lost love’s son” to “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s where he can watch over someone who might be in his own long-term rational self-interest to support.”
Or more explicitly “tied to Dumbledore’s faction because that’s the faction that won’t be evil to him, and being without a faction is too dangerous”.
You definitely put Quirrell’s offer to be an ally to Snape in a new light. He may be trying to prevent just that.
He may have quit loving Lily, but Snape instigated his anti-bullying scheme after his conversation with Harry. I’d say the conversation shocked him out of self-pity and into action, and the action was more or less Good.
I took it that way too.
Makes for an improved Snape, and an avoidance of the debacle in canon of the world being saved by creepy guy nursing a teenage crush for decades. Ugh.
Rationalist Hero Rule #43: don’t dismiss known saviors-of-the-world because of Ugh fields.
I was more offended on Snape’s behalf at what Rowling did to him than rejecting Snape. My suspension of belief was suspended. The judgments I make reading known a known fictional story and living in a story myself aren’t the same.
Although I admit to feeling something of the impulse, watching the world, to judge it as if it had an author, and take offense at some of the plot points. I suppose it’s a cognitive dissonance between what I in general value, and what in a particular instance turned out to be valuable. I don’t expect the universe to be fair, but I am disgruntled when it seems perverse.