Do not fault the successful participant in a flawed system; try instead to discern and rebuke that aspect of its organization which allows or encourages the behavior that has provoked your displeasure.
A meta-comment: It’s always good to have an arsenal of mainstream-accessible quotes to use for those times when explaining game theory is just loo much of an inferential leap. I’d like to find more of these.
Disagree. This is just a get out of jail free card, a universal excuse. Don’t blame me, blame the system / my genes / my memes / my parents / determinism / indeterminism...
When said in first person, it can feel like a dodge.
However, when used as a third-person response to retorts like “politicians have got to stop being so corrupt!”, I find it fits just fine, and it is in this context that I posted it. (also, notice that the elaboration is in third person)
Disagree. This is just a get out of jail free card, a universal excuse. Don’t blame me, blame the system / my genes / my memes / my parents / determinism / indeterminism...
Regardless of the normative value of the quote your description of the meaning, purpose and implication is flawed. That just is not what the statement means.
That may not be what it’s supposed to mean, but I’ve heard people use it that way.
If you have, in fact, heard people use the statement to mean “Don’t blame me, blame” any of “my genes / my memes / my parents / determinism / indeterminism” (everything except ‘the system’) then you have heard people calling a tail a leg. There is a world of difference between ‘just a universal excuse’ and something that is sometimes used as an excuse combined with a list of half a dozen unrelated excuses.
This isn’t a matter of normative judgement, it is a matter of basic comprehension. And in this case a matter of thinking a negative opinion of something is a justification for misrepresentation.
If the phrase is being used sometimes (or even often) as an excuse then that objection can be expressed explicitly, without abusing the language for rhetorical effect. That’s the difference between prompting my agreement and eliciting disgust.
If there were no players, then there would be no game.
That doesn’t appear true either. Alexandros’ meta comment becomes relevant here, regarding descriptions “for those times when explaining game theory is just loo much of an inferential leap”. The ‘game’ is set up, to a significant extent, by the external (social) environment. By people who are not themselves the relevant players. Without players you just have a game that is not at a Nash equilibrium… yet.
I don’t intend to defend Richard’s comment in its entirety. But words mean what people use them to mean, and the same goes for ambiguous phrases.
I mostly hear people use it to mean “My actions are ethically unimpeachable, because that is the way that people do things.”, which is a refinement of “Don’t blame me; blame the system.”. I gather from your comment that you accept the latter sentence as a legitimate interpretation of the phrase (and it’s the first one that Richard offered). If you think that the refinement is illegitimate, perhaps it’s not what Ice-T meant, but it’s a natural interpretation.
(Actually, Ice-T seems to have meant something very different, since he was addressing fellow players who criticise him out of sheer envy. But if they were to start hating the game, then this would just make them hypocrites, so it doesn’t seem to be sound advice. Better to just improve one’s game, or quit.)
I certainly agree that it’s better to change the system than to change individual players. However, sometimes one has more influence over particular individuals, especially if one of those individuals is oneself. And if, as in the social situations where I have heard the phrase applied, the system emerges from the various players, then changing the players is ultimately the only way to change the game.
To make it clear where I’m coming from, I mostly hear the phrase used by people who’ve been caught breaking promises of sexual fidelity, or rather by people discussing such.
And if, as in the social situations where I have heard the phrase applied, the system emerges from the various players, then changing the players is ultimately the only way to change the game.
Not so. At least, not without redefining the game such that the ‘players’ include all those that would otherwise have been considered the external social environment.
Yes, that depends on how widely you take “the game”. Nevertheless, in the contexts where I run across the phrase, changing the players in question would suffice.
There are definitely situations where it goes differently, however. One example that came up in conversation today (without this phrase) is a draftee in a war, who is forced to shoot at people to avoid being shot. Changing all of the players in this position would work, but only if the players on both sides change at once. I would not blame such a person, if they don’t actually want to be there.
So I seem to have just come to this conclusion: It’s illegitimate to blame (to state the ethical culpability of) any player who doesn’t want to play the game but is unable to quit. That includes a lot of examples, just not the ones where I’ve met this phrase.
Er, that context doesn’t sound like “I’m a puppet of the system” to me at all. It sounds more like, “don’t be mad at me because I’m successful and you’re not (“Actin’ like a brother done did somethin’ wrong cause he got his game tight”); if you have to be mad at something, be mad at the rules which elevate some and lower others (“some come up and some get done up”), by requiring us to risk much to gain great rewards (“If you out for mega cheddar, you got to go high risk”). Otherwise, work on improving your own performance (“tighten your aim”), rather than envying my success (“act like you don’t see me / You wanna be me”).”
Given that most of the song is bragging about his past actions and willingness to take more such actions in the future, it certainly doesn’t sound like a declaration of helplessness. Heck, for a rap song, it’s practically self-improvement advice. ;-)
I would say that the quote isn’t about “I’m a puppet of the system” but more a critique of a particular incentive system, and there’s validity to this. If a certain activity is incentivized, then it shouldn’t be surprising to expect that someone would eventually engage in that activity. Perverse incentive systems produce truly horrendous results.
I think this quote is especially apposite when your looking at ways of reforming a system. Attributing bad policy outcomes to the perfidy of individuals is generally unhelpful in designing a solution.
Yes, blaming the failure on self-serving behaviour is futile, but its imperative that you account for people’s tendency to do this when you design a system.
It’s good to understand the player’s actions as being part of a particular game. But it’s okay to punish the player, if you’re feeling altruistic or vengeful enough (that is, you want to do your part to discourage people from playing that game).
When you’re not prepared to anger the player, the game is indeed a safe target for your ineffectual outrage.
It’s good to understand the player’s actions as being part of a particular game. But it’s okay to punish the player, if you’re feeling altruistic or vengeful enough (that is, you want to do your part to discourage people from playing that game).
It is similarly okay for the player or, indeed, a third party to consider your ‘altruistic’ punishment to be itself blameworthy or anti-social and subject it to punishment. After all, encouraging ‘altruists’ to punish the kind of player who is not powerful enough to deter punishment is typically just another part of the game, one step up in sophistication.
You’re right. We punish the weak. The piling-on effect I see sometimes sickens me; once someone is already roundly criticized, all sorts of cheap moral-enforcement-altruism-signalers latch on.
Do not fault the successful participant in a flawed system; try instead to discern and rebuke that aspect of its organization which allows or encourages the behavior that has provoked your displeasure.
Although it does smack of “I was just following orders”.
I know that’s not what the original quote is about, not most of the responses in this thread. But it’s a “logical” extension of the sentiment.
Don’t hate the playa, unless the playa is playing a game that is inherently and obviously worthy of hate (“I was just following orders”), or a game that might allow certain things that are worthy of hate. Exploitation of child labor, for example, is within the rules of the game (just not in certain places), and could allow a player to be more successful than one who didn’t go to that extent of the rules. In that circumstance, it seems ok to hate the player.
I think it’s the type of inaccurate verbiage typical of writers trying to write above their ability.
Not at all. It is more accurate and clear than the vast majority of quotes in the quotes threads. It does a good job of translating the implied meaning (such as of the word ‘hate’ in the context) into more tangible descriptions.
Do you perhaps have a particular problem with semicolons? Or consider the status of urban dictionary authors insufficient to permit them the use of words like ‘rebuke’ and ‘participant’?
It is this urban dictionary definition that earned my upvote in this case (even though DHTP;HTG probably would have scraped through on its own).
Well, I deleted my post immediately because I decided I didn’t want to defend it, but since you saw it I will.
“Discern” is superfluous. What distinction is intended between “rebuke” and “fault”? Using “rebuke” for a behaviour, as opposed to a person, sounds wrong to my ears—the opposite of what is intended. What distinction is intended between “system” and “organization”? “Provoked your displeasure” is mealy-mouthed, especially when “hate” is the verb in the original. This type of writing says, I’ve got a thesaurus and I’m not afraid to use it.
Do you perhaps have a particular problem with semicolons? Or consider the status of urban dictionary authors insufficient to permit them the use of words like ‘rebuke’ and ‘participant’?
Haha, no, but that’s some nice assuming you’ve got there.
In most games there is no ethical choice involved. In the type of game Tracy Marrow [2] is playing #3 is the appropriate choice (at least in the early stages of his career). For a real kid born in the lower class ghettos, #2 transitioning to #3 is the appropriate choice. “The Game” Ice-T was talking about was either the Gansta-Rap game, or the urban gang banger game. To succeed in the Gangsta Rap game one has to present a certain type of lifestyle and moral choices as appealing and appropriate. Those sorts of moral choices (drug dealing, prostitution, handling interpersonal differences with extreme violence etc.) are neither successful strategies long term, nor do they increase the amount of rationality. To be a playa in the gang banging game you have to be good at those same things, and be absolutely ruthless. This has possible secondary effects of increasing the level of psychopathy in a population group (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jim_fallon_exploring_the_mind_of_a_killer.html).
Or to shorten it, doing large amounts of crack and running around with automatic weapons, while a fun way to waste a sunday afternoon, is not exactly a rational thing to do.
Unless the game is “thermodynamics”.
He took his Nom De Plume from a Pimp.
p.s. I actually like a lot of his music. He was a talented recording artist. It’s just a shame he couldn’t see how his actions would impact and influence a community that really could have used better role models.
Honestly, reading that quote brought to mind this one:
“One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure — and in some cases I have — that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.” -Jeff Cooper, “Cooper vs. Terrorism”, Guns & Ammo Annual, 1975
This reminds me: every year, more and more people complain that Burning Man has lost some essential part of its appeal– but of course, that very attitude is part of Burning Man’s original appeal, and those who don’t wish to be hipsters themselves need to step back one level farther.
“Realize that all actions are context-dependent, and all utility functions depend on the context in which they are written. If you want to change either one, think about changing the context as an alternative to more direct means.”
However, I’ve probably managed to maximize the inferential distance between writer and reader here, since many people go from concrete-->abstract more easily than the reverse.
Do not fault the successful participant in a flawed system; try instead to discern and rebuke that aspect of its organization which allows or encourages the behavior that has provoked your displeasure.
Or if you really must dislike said successful participant for what they are willing to do, at least realize that if they weren’t doing it, someone else would be and that the more effective intervention is to change the underlying incentives in the system which motivates that behavior.
-- Ice-T
Or, as the Urban Dictionary puts it:
A meta-comment: It’s always good to have an arsenal of mainstream-accessible quotes to use for those times when explaining game theory is just loo much of an inferential leap. I’d like to find more of these.
Disagree. This is just a get out of jail free card, a universal excuse. Don’t blame me, blame the system / my genes / my memes / my parents / determinism / indeterminism...
When said in first person, it can feel like a dodge.
However, when used as a third-person response to retorts like “politicians have got to stop being so corrupt!”, I find it fits just fine, and it is in this context that I posted it. (also, notice that the elaboration is in third person)
Regardless of the normative value of the quote your description of the meaning, purpose and implication is flawed. That just is not what the statement means.
That may not be what it’s supposed to mean, but I’ve heard people use it that way.
If there were no players, then there would be no game.
If you have, in fact, heard people use the statement to mean “Don’t blame me, blame” any of “my genes / my memes / my parents / determinism / indeterminism” (everything except ‘the system’) then you have heard people calling a tail a leg. There is a world of difference between ‘just a universal excuse’ and something that is sometimes used as an excuse combined with a list of half a dozen unrelated excuses.
This isn’t a matter of normative judgement, it is a matter of basic comprehension. And in this case a matter of thinking a negative opinion of something is a justification for misrepresentation.
If the phrase is being used sometimes (or even often) as an excuse then that objection can be expressed explicitly, without abusing the language for rhetorical effect. That’s the difference between prompting my agreement and eliciting disgust.
That doesn’t appear true either. Alexandros’ meta comment becomes relevant here, regarding descriptions “for those times when explaining game theory is just loo much of an inferential leap”. The ‘game’ is set up, to a significant extent, by the external (social) environment. By people who are not themselves the relevant players. Without players you just have a game that is not at a Nash equilibrium… yet.
I don’t intend to defend Richard’s comment in its entirety. But words mean what people use them to mean, and the same goes for ambiguous phrases.
I mostly hear people use it to mean “My actions are ethically unimpeachable, because that is the way that people do things.”, which is a refinement of “Don’t blame me; blame the system.”. I gather from your comment that you accept the latter sentence as a legitimate interpretation of the phrase (and it’s the first one that Richard offered). If you think that the refinement is illegitimate, perhaps it’s not what Ice-T meant, but it’s a natural interpretation.
(Actually, Ice-T seems to have meant something very different, since he was addressing fellow players who criticise him out of sheer envy. But if they were to start hating the game, then this would just make them hypocrites, so it doesn’t seem to be sound advice. Better to just improve one’s game, or quit.)
I certainly agree that it’s better to change the system than to change individual players. However, sometimes one has more influence over particular individuals, especially if one of those individuals is oneself. And if, as in the social situations where I have heard the phrase applied, the system emerges from the various players, then changing the players is ultimately the only way to change the game.
To make it clear where I’m coming from, I mostly hear the phrase used by people who’ve been caught breaking promises of sexual fidelity, or rather by people discussing such.
Not so. At least, not without redefining the game such that the ‘players’ include all those that would otherwise have been considered the external social environment.
Yes, that depends on how widely you take “the game”. Nevertheless, in the contexts where I run across the phrase, changing the players in question would suffice.
There are definitely situations where it goes differently, however. One example that came up in conversation today (without this phrase) is a draftee in a war, who is forced to shoot at people to avoid being shot. Changing all of the players in this position would work, but only if the players on both sides change at once. I would not blame such a person, if they don’t actually want to be there.
So I seem to have just come to this conclusion: It’s illegitimate to blame (to state the ethical culpability of) any player who doesn’t want to play the game but is unable to quit. That includes a lot of examples, just not the ones where I’ve met this phrase.
Given the context, I stand by my interpretation.
Er, that context doesn’t sound like “I’m a puppet of the system” to me at all. It sounds more like, “don’t be mad at me because I’m successful and you’re not (“Actin’ like a brother done did somethin’ wrong cause he got his game tight”); if you have to be mad at something, be mad at the rules which elevate some and lower others (“some come up and some get done up”), by requiring us to risk much to gain great rewards (“If you out for mega cheddar, you got to go high risk”). Otherwise, work on improving your own performance (“tighten your aim”), rather than envying my success (“act like you don’t see me / You wanna be me”).”
Given that most of the song is bragging about his past actions and willingness to take more such actions in the future, it certainly doesn’t sound like a declaration of helplessness. Heck, for a rap song, it’s practically self-improvement advice. ;-)
I would say that the quote isn’t about “I’m a puppet of the system” but more a critique of a particular incentive system, and there’s validity to this. If a certain activity is incentivized, then it shouldn’t be surprising to expect that someone would eventually engage in that activity. Perverse incentive systems produce truly horrendous results.
Also, up vote for analyzing rap music :)
The scenario I imagined was a wealthy drug dealer justifying his profession. But I’ll agree the lyrics allow more benign applications.
I think this quote is especially apposite when your looking at ways of reforming a system. Attributing bad policy outcomes to the perfidy of individuals is generally unhelpful in designing a solution.
Depends.
If the potential perfidy of humans is not counted for in your solution, then it’s a fail.
Humans lie, cheat, and steal. Especially when the system is policy is designed to encourage that behavior.
Yes, blaming the failure on self-serving behaviour is futile, but its imperative that you account for people’s tendency to do this when you design a system.
It’s good to understand the player’s actions as being part of a particular game. But it’s okay to punish the player, if you’re feeling altruistic or vengeful enough (that is, you want to do your part to discourage people from playing that game).
When you’re not prepared to anger the player, the game is indeed a safe target for your ineffectual outrage.
It is similarly okay for the player or, indeed, a third party to consider your ‘altruistic’ punishment to be itself blameworthy or anti-social and subject it to punishment. After all, encouraging ‘altruists’ to punish the kind of player who is not powerful enough to deter punishment is typically just another part of the game, one step up in sophistication.
You’re right. We punish the weak. The piling-on effect I see sometimes sickens me; once someone is already roundly criticized, all sorts of cheap moral-enforcement-altruism-signalers latch on.
Just like how wedrifid begin criticising people like that, and then you joined in. :P
I definitely didn’t consider that my comment was so self-describing :) Clever.
I guess I could stand to implement a final “how will this be perceived” habit (pretend I’m the observer reading what some other man has written).
This in particular is very well put.
Although it does smack of “I was just following orders”.
I know that’s not what the original quote is about, not most of the responses in this thread. But it’s a “logical” extension of the sentiment.
Don’t hate the playa, unless the playa is playing a game that is inherently and obviously worthy of hate (“I was just following orders”), or a game that might allow certain things that are worthy of hate. Exploitation of child labor, for example, is within the rules of the game (just not in certain places), and could allow a player to be more successful than one who didn’t go to that extent of the rules. In that circumstance, it seems ok to hate the player.
I think it’s the type of inaccurate verbiage typical of writers trying to write above their ability.
Not at all. It is more accurate and clear than the vast majority of quotes in the quotes threads. It does a good job of translating the implied meaning (such as of the word ‘hate’ in the context) into more tangible descriptions.
Do you perhaps have a particular problem with semicolons? Or consider the status of urban dictionary authors insufficient to permit them the use of words like ‘rebuke’ and ‘participant’?
It is this urban dictionary definition that earned my upvote in this case (even though DHTP;HTG probably would have scraped through on its own).
Well, I deleted my post immediately because I decided I didn’t want to defend it, but since you saw it I will.
“Discern” is superfluous. What distinction is intended between “rebuke” and “fault”? Using “rebuke” for a behaviour, as opposed to a person, sounds wrong to my ears—the opposite of what is intended. What distinction is intended between “system” and “organization”? “Provoked your displeasure” is mealy-mouthed, especially when “hate” is the verb in the original. This type of writing says, I’ve got a thesaurus and I’m not afraid to use it.
Haha, no, but that’s some nice assuming you’ve got there.
Every “playa” has three options[1]:
To play the game to it’s utmost
To play the game just enough to get by.
Not to play.
In most games there is no ethical choice involved. In the type of game Tracy Marrow [2] is playing #3 is the appropriate choice (at least in the early stages of his career). For a real kid born in the lower class ghettos, #2 transitioning to #3 is the appropriate choice. “The Game” Ice-T was talking about was either the Gansta-Rap game, or the urban gang banger game. To succeed in the Gangsta Rap game one has to present a certain type of lifestyle and moral choices as appealing and appropriate. Those sorts of moral choices (drug dealing, prostitution, handling interpersonal differences with extreme violence etc.) are neither successful strategies long term, nor do they increase the amount of rationality. To be a playa in the gang banging game you have to be good at those same things, and be absolutely ruthless. This has possible secondary effects of increasing the level of psychopathy in a population group (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jim_fallon_exploring_the_mind_of_a_killer.html).
Or to shorten it, doing large amounts of crack and running around with automatic weapons, while a fun way to waste a sunday afternoon, is not exactly a rational thing to do.
Unless the game is “thermodynamics”.
He took his Nom De Plume from a Pimp.
p.s. I actually like a lot of his music. He was a talented recording artist. It’s just a shame he couldn’t see how his actions would impact and influence a community that really could have used better role models.
Honestly, reading that quote brought to mind this one:
“One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure — and in some cases I have — that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.” -Jeff Cooper, “Cooper vs. Terrorism”, Guns & Ammo Annual, 1975
This reminds me: every year, more and more people complain that Burning Man has lost some essential part of its appeal– but of course, that very attitude is part of Burning Man’s original appeal, and those who don’t wish to be hipsters themselves need to step back one level farther.
That is, don’t hate the playa, hate the game.
I think that this is the more general form:
“Realize that all actions are context-dependent, and all utility functions depend on the context in which they are written. If you want to change either one, think about changing the context as an alternative to more direct means.”
However, I’ve probably managed to maximize the inferential distance between writer and reader here, since many people go from concrete-->abstract more easily than the reverse.
Or if you really must dislike said successful participant for what they are willing to do, at least realize that if they weren’t doing it, someone else would be and that the more effective intervention is to change the underlying incentives in the system which motivates that behavior.