Brilliant! Agree the story is getting at the same concept as simulacra levels, which can be far more “low-tech” than people realize. The increased abstraction or speed of change are not the drivers, but both a causes and effects of knowledge decay, which is the real driver. I believe the phenomenon is cyclical, and correlates broadly with generational change.
You may not agree with this, but I’ve been desperately trying to explain to people older than me that a critical mass of (mostly young) people have hit level 5, and it is our responsibility to get things back on track, because they literally cannot do so. This can only be done by re-anchoring ourselves in object-level reality, as expressed in a concept of natural order and a sincere commitment to wisdom and truth. If we don’t do it, society will eventually crash into reality and be forced to rediscover it for themselves, but starting from scratch would be tragic given all the past experience we have to guide us. We already know what works—the details don’t matter as much as we think they do.
I’m 31. This is an extremely low-resolution generalization, but the way I see it, my parents were born and raised in a stage 3-4 transition, and I was born and raised in a stage 4-5 transition. As you suggest, stage 4 people don’t pass anything on to their kids, but they’re oblivious to the problem, because already in a pretty oblivious state, but with enough of a sense of earlier stages to keep this from impairing their functioning in immediately obvious ways. Caught somewhat in the middle, I can get into the minds of both and see the disconnect. I was also able to recover an understanding of stages 1 and 2, and get a general sense of what we’re missing and why. But I’m not sure where to go from here. My sense is that this stage is usually exited when people turn in desperation to the minority of with a Stage 1 mindset for leadership, because they’ve crashed into reality and can no longer focus on punishing the wise. But in a complex, highly mediated and interrelated society, it’s much harder for this sort of thing to get going. And most American adults are extremely averse to the idea of a natural order outside of delineated areas convenient to them, because of the limits or choices it imposes. I think there are ways to reconcile things into a transcendent order that is not nearly as extreme, impractical, or unfamiliar as they suppose, but that’s hard to convey in a society where everyone has a linear idea of progress. In the last few years, I’ve become convinced that is a highly mistaken concept.
I’m interested in the length of the stages, which don’t seem to be exactly the same. 4-5 is a rapid transition, and 3-4 is probably pretty quick. My grandparents seemed to be in stage 3. It seems like stage 1 and 2 last much longer, and that the boundaries between stages are pretty diffuse until stage 4, when it rapidly goes to hell, for reasons you did an excellent job articulating.
Sorry for the long response, but I’m so excited to see someone else who gets this, and can communicate it so well!
80% of US residents communicate at Level 1 80% of the time. “Please pass the potatoes,” “where are the lightbulbs,” “that will be $13.97,” etc. have no higher meaning, and make up the vast majority of mouth noises/text strings communicated between people.
The question of levels is limited to the 20% not related to immediate “molecules-impinging-on-my-body” things.
I guess I’m still confused about the basics of simulacrum levels, because I’m not sure what level those sentences are on. e.g., “Please pass the potatoes” is intended to have the consequence of causing someone to pass the potatoes, rather than attempting to accurately describe the world, which (I think) matches how people have been describing level 2. But also it seems concrete and grounded, rather than involving a distortion of reality. So maybe it is level 1? Or not in the hierarchy at all?
Interesting question. An experiment off top of head.
Level 1: “Please pass the potatoes” because you want potatoes.
Level 2: “Please pass the potatoes” because I want you to think you make good potatoes.
Level 3: “Please pass the potatoes” because I want to fit in with the potato-eating group.
Level 4: “Please pass the potatoes” because I can see there are no potatoes and this will lower the status of the people who didn’t make enough potatoes or raise the status of those whose potatoes are in high demand, or cause a fight over who ate too many, or whatever.
Yeah, I don’t really know where imperative statements fall. They seem more like level 3 if I imagine a soldier telling some people to stand down, but in simple things like “please pass the potatoes” there is also a substantial component of just saying “I would like to have the potatoes”, which is just a really straightforward level 1 statement, and indeed in some polite cultures the second one might completely replace the first, showing that they are kind of equivalent.
There’s definitely truth in that, but I think it’s below 80 on both counts, at least in 2020. Going about one’s business even in an ordinary way requires an understanding of a lot of higher meanings. Very little directly corresponds to reality.
I think it is correct that “please pass the potatoes” is Stage 1, but it’s not the best example for describing what this article is talking about. It’s more about the hearer than the speaker, in some ways, and what broader context they bring to a straightforward statement.
I think the idea is more like that at level 2, the child no longer passes the potatoes just because it’s the moral and practical thing to do, but sees it as an imposition and wants to know why he has to. The parent may be using the phrase exactly the same, but has failed to teach the child to appreciate his wider social obligations and what needs to be done to keep the community going. At level 3, the child thinks “better do what mom says and pass the potatoes or get yelled at/grounded,” but again sees it as a hassle rather than healthy interaction. This is because whenever she asks why, she gets told “because I said so.” Even though the reason her mom would ask is common sense, if you’re used to getting that answer, you often stop observing your own surroundings and think of things in a self-absorbed rather than common sense manner. At level 4, you may to get a point where a child casually passes a platter with one potato left, not thinking to get more or warn they are gone, because they don’t get that the request implies you want to eat the potatoes, not just possess a plate with scraps. Or they might get embarrassed by not knowing what to do and asked to be excused.
The “Please” doesn’t actually belong. I was importing the definition “I would be somewhat happier if …” into that word, but the cultural overtones cannot be escaped, and that puts the sentence anywhere on the Level Scale
Upon reflection, I see that any request necessarily has overtones at all levels, due to the possibility of alternative phrasings. (Please X; X; Hey you, X; X, or else; ^&*^% X &*^%%)
Forgot to add that I think there is a lot of overlap between stage 2 and 3, such that they may not necessarily be different levels of progress so much as different personality types who exist on the same level, which is nihilistic in character. Or, maybe, that a minority of 2 and 3 types exist at every stage—the former is the string-pullers of any age, and the latter is the abstract intellectual type. These people generally make up the elite class, and their behavior will differ depending on the stage of society. Most people never hit this level of cynicism or abstraction, but regular people borrow random 2 and 3 behaviors/concepts that appeal to their needs. I suspect the way it works is that the general public stays rooted for a long period at 1, but when their selectively collected 2⁄3 ideas reach a certain level of salience, the discrepancies shift them rapidly to stage 4, and the elites find they can’t influence things the way they used to.
Brilliant! Agree the story is getting at the same concept as simulacra levels, which can be far more “low-tech” than people realize. The increased abstraction or speed of change are not the drivers, but both a causes and effects of knowledge decay, which is the real driver. I believe the phenomenon is cyclical, and correlates broadly with generational change.
You may not agree with this, but I’ve been desperately trying to explain to people older than me that a critical mass of (mostly young) people have hit level 5, and it is our responsibility to get things back on track, because they literally cannot do so. This can only be done by re-anchoring ourselves in object-level reality, as expressed in a concept of natural order and a sincere commitment to wisdom and truth. If we don’t do it, society will eventually crash into reality and be forced to rediscover it for themselves, but starting from scratch would be tragic given all the past experience we have to guide us. We already know what works—the details don’t matter as much as we think they do.
I’m 31. This is an extremely low-resolution generalization, but the way I see it, my parents were born and raised in a stage 3-4 transition, and I was born and raised in a stage 4-5 transition. As you suggest, stage 4 people don’t pass anything on to their kids, but they’re oblivious to the problem, because already in a pretty oblivious state, but with enough of a sense of earlier stages to keep this from impairing their functioning in immediately obvious ways. Caught somewhat in the middle, I can get into the minds of both and see the disconnect. I was also able to recover an understanding of stages 1 and 2, and get a general sense of what we’re missing and why. But I’m not sure where to go from here. My sense is that this stage is usually exited when people turn in desperation to the minority of with a Stage 1 mindset for leadership, because they’ve crashed into reality and can no longer focus on punishing the wise. But in a complex, highly mediated and interrelated society, it’s much harder for this sort of thing to get going. And most American adults are extremely averse to the idea of a natural order outside of delineated areas convenient to them, because of the limits or choices it imposes. I think there are ways to reconcile things into a transcendent order that is not nearly as extreme, impractical, or unfamiliar as they suppose, but that’s hard to convey in a society where everyone has a linear idea of progress. In the last few years, I’ve become convinced that is a highly mistaken concept.
I’m interested in the length of the stages, which don’t seem to be exactly the same. 4-5 is a rapid transition, and 3-4 is probably pretty quick. My grandparents seemed to be in stage 3. It seems like stage 1 and 2 last much longer, and that the boundaries between stages are pretty diffuse until stage 4, when it rapidly goes to hell, for reasons you did an excellent job articulating.
Sorry for the long response, but I’m so excited to see someone else who gets this, and can communicate it so well!
80% of US residents communicate at Level 1 80% of the time. “Please pass the potatoes,” “where are the lightbulbs,” “that will be $13.97,” etc. have no higher meaning, and make up the vast majority of mouth noises/text strings communicated between people. The question of levels is limited to the 20% not related to immediate “molecules-impinging-on-my-body” things.
I guess I’m still confused about the basics of simulacrum levels, because I’m not sure what level those sentences are on. e.g., “Please pass the potatoes” is intended to have the consequence of causing someone to pass the potatoes, rather than attempting to accurately describe the world, which (I think) matches how people have been describing level 2. But also it seems concrete and grounded, rather than involving a distortion of reality. So maybe it is level 1? Or not in the hierarchy at all?
Interesting question. An experiment off top of head.
Level 1: “Please pass the potatoes” because you want potatoes.
Level 2: “Please pass the potatoes” because I want you to think you make good potatoes.
Level 3: “Please pass the potatoes” because I want to fit in with the potato-eating group.
Level 4: “Please pass the potatoes” because I can see there are no potatoes and this will lower the status of the people who didn’t make enough potatoes or raise the status of those whose potatoes are in high demand, or cause a fight over who ate too many, or whatever.
Yeah, I don’t really know where imperative statements fall. They seem more like level 3 if I imagine a soldier telling some people to stand down, but in simple things like “please pass the potatoes” there is also a substantial component of just saying “I would like to have the potatoes”, which is just a really straightforward level 1 statement, and indeed in some polite cultures the second one might completely replace the first, showing that they are kind of equivalent.
There’s definitely truth in that, but I think it’s below 80 on both counts, at least in 2020. Going about one’s business even in an ordinary way requires an understanding of a lot of higher meanings. Very little directly corresponds to reality.
I think it is correct that “please pass the potatoes” is Stage 1, but it’s not the best example for describing what this article is talking about. It’s more about the hearer than the speaker, in some ways, and what broader context they bring to a straightforward statement.
I think the idea is more like that at level 2, the child no longer passes the potatoes just because it’s the moral and practical thing to do, but sees it as an imposition and wants to know why he has to. The parent may be using the phrase exactly the same, but has failed to teach the child to appreciate his wider social obligations and what needs to be done to keep the community going. At level 3, the child thinks “better do what mom says and pass the potatoes or get yelled at/grounded,” but again sees it as a hassle rather than healthy interaction. This is because whenever she asks why, she gets told “because I said so.” Even though the reason her mom would ask is common sense, if you’re used to getting that answer, you often stop observing your own surroundings and think of things in a self-absorbed rather than common sense manner. At level 4, you may to get a point where a child casually passes a platter with one potato left, not thinking to get more or warn they are gone, because they don’t get that the request implies you want to eat the potatoes, not just possess a plate with scraps. Or they might get embarrassed by not knowing what to do and asked to be excused.
The “Please” doesn’t actually belong. I was importing the definition “I would be somewhat happier if …” into that word, but the cultural overtones cannot be escaped, and that puts the sentence anywhere on the Level Scale
Upon reflection, I see that any request necessarily has overtones at all levels, due to the possibility of alternative phrasings. (Please X; X; Hey you, X; X, or else; ^&*^% X &*^%%)
Forgot to add that I think there is a lot of overlap between stage 2 and 3, such that they may not necessarily be different levels of progress so much as different personality types who exist on the same level, which is nihilistic in character. Or, maybe, that a minority of 2 and 3 types exist at every stage—the former is the string-pullers of any age, and the latter is the abstract intellectual type. These people generally make up the elite class, and their behavior will differ depending on the stage of society. Most people never hit this level of cynicism or abstraction, but regular people borrow random 2 and 3 behaviors/concepts that appeal to their needs. I suspect the way it works is that the general public stays rooted for a long period at 1, but when their selectively collected 2⁄3 ideas reach a certain level of salience, the discrepancies shift them rapidly to stage 4, and the elites find they can’t influence things the way they used to.