My generally impression has been—trying not to offend anyone—that the thinking here is sometimes pretty rigid.
Of course, that’s to be expected for a community that defines itself as rationalist. There are ways of thinking that are more accurate than others, that, to put it inexactly, produce truth. It’s not just a “Think however you like and it will produce truth,” kind of game.
The obsession that some people have with being open minded and considering all ways of thinking and associated ideas equally is, I suspect, unsustainable for anyone who has even the barest sliver of intellectual honesty. I don’t consider it laudable at all. That’s not to say they have to be a total arse about it, but I think at best you can hope that they ignore you or lie to you.
Are you saying it’s more rational not ever to consider some ways of thinking?
Yes. Rationality isn’t necessarily about having accurate beliefs. It just tends that way because they seem to be useful. Rationality is about achieving your aims in the most efficient way possible.
Oh, someone may have to look into some ways of thinking, if people who use them start showing signs of being unusually effective at achieving relevant ends in some way. Those people would become super-dominant, it would be obvious that their way of thinking was superior. However, there’s no reason that it makes sense for any of us to do it at the moment. And if they never show those signs then it will never be rational to look into them.
It’s a massive waste of time and resources for individuals to consider every idea and every way of thinking before making a decision. You’re getting closer to death every day. You have to decide which ways of thinking you are going to invest your time in—which ones have the greatest evidence of giving you something you want.
That’s the thing for rationalists really, I think—chances of giving you what you want. It’s entirely possible that if you don’t want to achieve anything in this world with your life that it may just be a mistake for you personally to pursue rationality very far at all—at the end of the day you’re probably not going to get anything from it if all you really want to do is feel justified in believing in god.
Are you saying it’s more rational not ever to consider some ways of thinking?
(I’m pretty sure I’m not completely confused about what it means to be a rationalist.)
Given your earlier claims about how the meaning of reliably evaluating evidence depends on your paradigm, I have no confidence that you and I share an understanding of what “good epistemic hygiene” means either, so that doesn’t really help me understand what you’re saying.
Can you give me some representative concrete examples of good epistemic hygiene, on your account?
Or carefully evaluating both sides of an issue, for instance. Even if it’s not specifically a LW thing it’s considered essential for good judgment in the larger academic community.
Are we ever allowed to say “okay, we have evaluated this issue thoroughly, and this is our conclusion; let’s end this debate for now”? Are we allowed to do it even if some other people disagree with the conclusion? Or do we have to continue the debate forever (of course, unless we reach the one very specific predetermined answer)?
Sometimes we probably should doubt even whether 2+2=4. But not all the time! Not even once in a month. Once or twice in a (pre-Singularity) lifetime is probably more than necessary. -- Well, it’s very similar for the religion.
There are thousands of issues worth thinking about. Why waste the limited resources on this specific topic? Why not something useful… such as curing the cancer, or even how to invent a better mousetrap?
Most of us have evaluated the both sides of this issue. Some of us did it for years. We did it. It’s done. It’s over. -- Of course, unless there is something really new and really unexpected and really convincing… but so far, there isn’t anything. Why debate it forever? Just because some other people are obsessed?
I guess instead of the purple boxes of unread comments, we should have two colors for unread new comments and unread old comments. (Or I should learn to look at the dates, but that seems less effective.)
As I respond to this, your comment is outlined in a wide purple border. When I submit this response, I expect that your comment will no longer be outlined, but my comment will. If I refresh the screen, I expect neither of ours will.
This has been true since I started reading LW again recently, and I have mostly been paying no attention to it, figuring it was some kind of “current selection” indicator that wasn’t working very well. But if it’s an “unread comment” indicator, then it works a lot better.
Edit—I was close. When I submit, your comment is still purple, and mine isn’t. If I refresh once, yours isn’t and mine is. If I refresh again, neither is.
I’m not still worrying about it, most of the time. It’s interesting to see how all these threads turned out. I’m no longer especially active here, although I still find it a great place. My intention was never to come arguing for religion, as obviously you’ve made up your minds, but I was a bit disappointed in the reactionary nature of the responses. I have since found the types of arguments I was looking for, however, and I would highly recommend this book—The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions, by David Berlinski (a secular jew and mathematician).
But of course there is no place for such impossible questions in most of everyday life. God and religion need to be pondered sometimes, but I’m done for now.
I did not find The Devil’s Delusion to be persuasive/good at all. It’s scientific quality is perhaps best summarized by noting that Berlinski is an opponent of evolution; I also recall that Berlinski spent an enormous amount of time on the (irrelevant) topic of whether some atheists had been evil.
ETA: Actually, now that I think about, The Devil’s Delusion is probably why I tend to ignore or look down on atheists who spend lots of time arguing that God would be evil (e.g. Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris)- I feel like they’re making the same mistake, but on the opposite side.
Berlinski’s thesis is not that evolution is incorrect or that atheists are evil; rather it is that our modern scientific system has just as many gaping holes in it as does any proper theology. Evolution is not incorrect, but the way it’s interpreted to refute God is completely unfounded. Its scientific quality is in fact quite good; do you have any specific corrections or is it just that anything critical of Darwin is surely wrong?
How so? Someone involved with CFAR allegedly converted to Catholicism due to an argument-from-morality. Also, I know looking at the Biblical order to kill Isaac, and a general call to murder that I wasn’t following, helped me to realize I didn’t believe in God as such.
My point is that various atheists may wish to convince people who actually exist. Such people may give credence to the traditional argument from morality, or may think they believe claims about God while anticipating the opposite.
I’m curious too. Can you give me an example of a particular way of thinking that you considered, yet ended up rejecting ? I’m not sure what you mean by “ways of thinking”, so that might help.
OK, I’m ready to entertain new ideas: What’s sacred about Mormon underwear?
You’re free to answer, or you may notice that not all ideas deserve to be elevated above background noise by undue consideration. Rejecting an Abrahamic God as (is ludicrous too harsh?) … not all too likely helps in demoting a host of associated and dependent beliefs into insignificance.
OK, I’m ready to entertain new ideas: What’s sacred about Mormon underwear?
I’m not a Mormon, and I actually don’t know that much about their underwear, but this is still rather a silly question. A Mormon might answer that, given that the Mormon god does exist and does care about his followers, the underwear symbolizes the commitment that the follower made to his God. It serves as a physical reminder to the wearer that he must abide by certain rules of conduct, in exchange for divine protection.
Such an answer may make perfect sense in the context of the Mormon religion (as I said, I’m not a Mormon so I don’t claim this answer is correct). It may sound silly to you, but that’s because you reject the core premise that the Mormon god exists. So, by hearing the answer you haven’t really learned anything, and thus your question had very little value.
Which is the point I was trying to make when talking about that question in the second paragraph. As goes “is there an Abrahamic god”, so goes a majority of assorted ‘new’ - but in fact dependent on that core premise—ideas.
I didn’t get the impression that ibidem was talking about specific tenets of any particular religion when he mentioned “new ideas”, but I could be wrong.
The same applies to many ideas that build upon other concepts being the case. You could probably make an argument that no ideas at all are wholly independent facts in the sense that they do not depend on the truth value of other ideas. Often you can skip dealing with a large swath of ideas simply by rejecting some upstream idea they all rely upon.
Religion, in this case, was a good example. That, and there’s always some chance of hearing something interesting about holy underwear.
Only that God makes it sacred. But I’m actually too young to be wearing it myself, so I don’t know if I’m qualified to talk. And I think it would be better for me not to get into defending my particular religion.
Of course, that’s to be expected for a community that defines itself as rationalist. There are ways of thinking that are more accurate than others, that, to put it inexactly, produce truth. It’s not just a “Think however you like and it will produce truth,” kind of game.
The obsession that some people have with being open minded and considering all ways of thinking and associated ideas equally is, I suspect, unsustainable for anyone who has even the barest sliver of intellectual honesty. I don’t consider it laudable at all. That’s not to say they have to be a total arse about it, but I think at best you can hope that they ignore you or lie to you.
Are you saying it’s more rational not ever to consider some ways of thinking?
(I’m pretty sure I’m not completely confused about what it means to be a rationalist.)
Yes. Rationality isn’t necessarily about having accurate beliefs. It just tends that way because they seem to be useful. Rationality is about achieving your aims in the most efficient way possible.
Oh, someone may have to look into some ways of thinking, if people who use them start showing signs of being unusually effective at achieving relevant ends in some way. Those people would become super-dominant, it would be obvious that their way of thinking was superior. However, there’s no reason that it makes sense for any of us to do it at the moment. And if they never show those signs then it will never be rational to look into them.
It’s a massive waste of time and resources for individuals to consider every idea and every way of thinking before making a decision. You’re getting closer to death every day. You have to decide which ways of thinking you are going to invest your time in—which ones have the greatest evidence of giving you something you want.
That’s the thing for rationalists really, I think—chances of giving you what you want. It’s entirely possible that if you don’t want to achieve anything in this world with your life that it may just be a mistake for you personally to pursue rationality very far at all—at the end of the day you’re probably not going to get anything from it if all you really want to do is feel justified in believing in god.
What does it mean to be a rationalist?
I suppose what Estarlio and I are actually referring to (as in “a community that defines itself as rationalist”) is “good epistemic hygiene.”
Given your earlier claims about how the meaning of reliably evaluating evidence depends on your paradigm, I have no confidence that you and I share an understanding of what “good epistemic hygiene” means either, so that doesn’t really help me understand what you’re saying.
Can you give me some representative concrete examples of good epistemic hygiene, on your account?
Articles like this one, obviously.
Or carefully evaluating both sides of an issue, for instance. Even if it’s not specifically a LW thing it’s considered essential for good judgment in the larger academic community.
Are we ever allowed to say “okay, we have evaluated this issue thoroughly, and this is our conclusion; let’s end this debate for now”? Are we allowed to do it even if some other people disagree with the conclusion? Or do we have to continue the debate forever (of course, unless we reach the one very specific predetermined answer)?
Sometimes we probably should doubt even whether 2+2=4. But not all the time! Not even once in a month. Once or twice in a (pre-Singularity) lifetime is probably more than necessary. -- Well, it’s very similar for the religion.
There are thousands of issues worth thinking about. Why waste the limited resources on this specific topic? Why not something useful… such as curing the cancer, or even how to invent a better mousetrap?
Most of us have evaluated the both sides of this issue. Some of us did it for years. We did it. It’s done. It’s over. -- Of course, unless there is something really new and really unexpected and really convincing… but so far, there isn’t anything. Why debate it forever? Just because some other people are obsessed?
So, I basically agree with you, but I choose to point out the irony of this as a response to a thread gone quiet for months.
LOL
I guess instead of the purple boxes of unread comments, we should have two colors for unread new comments and unread old comments. (Or I should learn to look at the dates, but that seems less effective.)
(blinks)
Oh, is THAT what those purple boxes are!?!
learns a thing *
Wait, what purple boxes? Am I missing something?
As I respond to this, your comment is outlined in a wide purple border. When I submit this response, I expect that your comment will no longer be outlined, but my comment will. If I refresh the screen, I expect neither of ours will.
This has been true since I started reading LW again recently, and I have mostly been paying no attention to it, figuring it was some kind of “current selection” indicator that wasn’t working very well. But if it’s an “unread comment” indicator, then it works a lot better.
Edit—I was close. When I submit, your comment is still purple, and mine isn’t. If I refresh once, yours isn’t and mine is. If I refresh again, neither is.
Oh now I see. Both of our comments are purple-boxed. Let’s see what happens when I comment and refresh.
I’m not still worrying about it, most of the time. It’s interesting to see how all these threads turned out. I’m no longer especially active here, although I still find it a great place. My intention was never to come arguing for religion, as obviously you’ve made up your minds, but I was a bit disappointed in the reactionary nature of the responses. I have since found the types of arguments I was looking for, however, and I would highly recommend this book—The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions, by David Berlinski (a secular jew and mathematician).
But of course there is no place for such impossible questions in most of everyday life. God and religion need to be pondered sometimes, but I’m done for now.
From the book’s website:
I guess there is some tension between “narrow and oppressive orthodoxy of thought and opinion” and “willing to believe in anything”...
Willing to believe in anything the oppressive orthodoxy (“Science”) claims to have proven, I think.
I did not find The Devil’s Delusion to be persuasive/good at all. It’s scientific quality is perhaps best summarized by noting that Berlinski is an opponent of evolution; I also recall that Berlinski spent an enormous amount of time on the (irrelevant) topic of whether some atheists had been evil.
ETA: Actually, now that I think about, The Devil’s Delusion is probably why I tend to ignore or look down on atheists who spend lots of time arguing that God would be evil (e.g. Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris)- I feel like they’re making the same mistake, but on the opposite side.
Berlinski’s thesis is not that evolution is incorrect or that atheists are evil; rather it is that our modern scientific system has just as many gaping holes in it as does any proper theology. Evolution is not incorrect, but the way it’s interpreted to refute God is completely unfounded. Its scientific quality is in fact quite good; do you have any specific corrections or is it just that anything critical of Darwin is surely wrong?
How so? Someone involved with CFAR allegedly converted to Catholicism due to an argument-from-morality. Also, I know looking at the Biblical order to kill Isaac, and a general call to murder that I wasn’t following, helped me to realize I didn’t believe in God as such.
This is evidence that arguments-from-morality do persuade people, not that they should.
My point is that various atheists may wish to convince people who actually exist. Such people may give credence to the traditional argument from morality, or may think they believe claims about God while anticipating the opposite.
OK. Thanks for answering my question.
I’m curious too. Can you give me an example of a particular way of thinking that you considered, yet ended up rejecting ? I’m not sure what you mean by “ways of thinking”, so that might help.
OK, I’m ready to entertain new ideas: What’s sacred about Mormon underwear?
You’re free to answer, or you may notice that not all ideas deserve to be elevated above background noise by undue consideration. Rejecting an Abrahamic God as (is ludicrous too harsh?) … not all too likely helps in demoting a host of associated and dependent beliefs into insignificance.
I’m not a Mormon, and I actually don’t know that much about their underwear, but this is still rather a silly question. A Mormon might answer that, given that the Mormon god does exist and does care about his followers, the underwear symbolizes the commitment that the follower made to his God. It serves as a physical reminder to the wearer that he must abide by certain rules of conduct, in exchange for divine protection.
Such an answer may make perfect sense in the context of the Mormon religion (as I said, I’m not a Mormon so I don’t claim this answer is correct). It may sound silly to you, but that’s because you reject the core premise that the Mormon god exists. So, by hearing the answer you haven’t really learned anything, and thus your question had very little value.
Which is the point I was trying to make when talking about that question in the second paragraph. As goes “is there an Abrahamic god”, so goes a majority of assorted ‘new’ - but in fact dependent on that core premise—ideas.
I didn’t get the impression that ibidem was talking about specific tenets of any particular religion when he mentioned “new ideas”, but I could be wrong.
The same applies to many ideas that build upon other concepts being the case. You could probably make an argument that no ideas at all are wholly independent facts in the sense that they do not depend on the truth value of other ideas. Often you can skip dealing with a large swath of ideas simply by rejecting some upstream idea they all rely upon.
Religion, in this case, was a good example. That, and there’s always some chance of hearing something interesting about holy underwear.
Only that God makes it sacred. But I’m actually too young to be wearing it myself, so I don’t know if I’m qualified to talk. And I think it would be better for me not to get into defending my particular religion.