I’m not still worrying about it, most of the time. It’s interesting to see how all these threads turned out. I’m no longer especially active here, although I still find it a great place. My intention was never to come arguing for religion, as obviously you’ve made up your minds, but I was a bit disappointed in the reactionary nature of the responses. I have since found the types of arguments I was looking for, however, and I would highly recommend this book—The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions, by David Berlinski (a secular jew and mathematician).
But of course there is no place for such impossible questions in most of everyday life. God and religion need to be pondered sometimes, but I’m done for now.
I did not find The Devil’s Delusion to be persuasive/good at all. It’s scientific quality is perhaps best summarized by noting that Berlinski is an opponent of evolution; I also recall that Berlinski spent an enormous amount of time on the (irrelevant) topic of whether some atheists had been evil.
ETA: Actually, now that I think about, The Devil’s Delusion is probably why I tend to ignore or look down on atheists who spend lots of time arguing that God would be evil (e.g. Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris)- I feel like they’re making the same mistake, but on the opposite side.
Berlinski’s thesis is not that evolution is incorrect or that atheists are evil; rather it is that our modern scientific system has just as many gaping holes in it as does any proper theology. Evolution is not incorrect, but the way it’s interpreted to refute God is completely unfounded. Its scientific quality is in fact quite good; do you have any specific corrections or is it just that anything critical of Darwin is surely wrong?
How so? Someone involved with CFAR allegedly converted to Catholicism due to an argument-from-morality. Also, I know looking at the Biblical order to kill Isaac, and a general call to murder that I wasn’t following, helped me to realize I didn’t believe in God as such.
My point is that various atheists may wish to convince people who actually exist. Such people may give credence to the traditional argument from morality, or may think they believe claims about God while anticipating the opposite.
I’m not still worrying about it, most of the time. It’s interesting to see how all these threads turned out. I’m no longer especially active here, although I still find it a great place. My intention was never to come arguing for religion, as obviously you’ve made up your minds, but I was a bit disappointed in the reactionary nature of the responses. I have since found the types of arguments I was looking for, however, and I would highly recommend this book—The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions, by David Berlinski (a secular jew and mathematician).
But of course there is no place for such impossible questions in most of everyday life. God and religion need to be pondered sometimes, but I’m done for now.
From the book’s website:
I guess there is some tension between “narrow and oppressive orthodoxy of thought and opinion” and “willing to believe in anything”...
Willing to believe in anything the oppressive orthodoxy (“Science”) claims to have proven, I think.
I did not find The Devil’s Delusion to be persuasive/good at all. It’s scientific quality is perhaps best summarized by noting that Berlinski is an opponent of evolution; I also recall that Berlinski spent an enormous amount of time on the (irrelevant) topic of whether some atheists had been evil.
ETA: Actually, now that I think about, The Devil’s Delusion is probably why I tend to ignore or look down on atheists who spend lots of time arguing that God would be evil (e.g. Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris)- I feel like they’re making the same mistake, but on the opposite side.
Berlinski’s thesis is not that evolution is incorrect or that atheists are evil; rather it is that our modern scientific system has just as many gaping holes in it as does any proper theology. Evolution is not incorrect, but the way it’s interpreted to refute God is completely unfounded. Its scientific quality is in fact quite good; do you have any specific corrections or is it just that anything critical of Darwin is surely wrong?
How so? Someone involved with CFAR allegedly converted to Catholicism due to an argument-from-morality. Also, I know looking at the Biblical order to kill Isaac, and a general call to murder that I wasn’t following, helped me to realize I didn’t believe in God as such.
This is evidence that arguments-from-morality do persuade people, not that they should.
My point is that various atheists may wish to convince people who actually exist. Such people may give credence to the traditional argument from morality, or may think they believe claims about God while anticipating the opposite.