Are we ever allowed to say “okay, we have evaluated this issue thoroughly, and this is our conclusion; let’s end this debate for now”? Are we allowed to do it even if some other people disagree with the conclusion? Or do we have to continue the debate forever (of course, unless we reach the one very specific predetermined answer)?
Sometimes we probably should doubt even whether 2+2=4. But not all the time! Not even once in a month. Once or twice in a (pre-Singularity) lifetime is probably more than necessary. -- Well, it’s very similar for the religion.
There are thousands of issues worth thinking about. Why waste the limited resources on this specific topic? Why not something useful… such as curing the cancer, or even how to invent a better mousetrap?
Most of us have evaluated the both sides of this issue. Some of us did it for years. We did it. It’s done. It’s over. -- Of course, unless there is something really new and really unexpected and really convincing… but so far, there isn’t anything. Why debate it forever? Just because some other people are obsessed?
I guess instead of the purple boxes of unread comments, we should have two colors for unread new comments and unread old comments. (Or I should learn to look at the dates, but that seems less effective.)
As I respond to this, your comment is outlined in a wide purple border. When I submit this response, I expect that your comment will no longer be outlined, but my comment will. If I refresh the screen, I expect neither of ours will.
This has been true since I started reading LW again recently, and I have mostly been paying no attention to it, figuring it was some kind of “current selection” indicator that wasn’t working very well. But if it’s an “unread comment” indicator, then it works a lot better.
Edit—I was close. When I submit, your comment is still purple, and mine isn’t. If I refresh once, yours isn’t and mine is. If I refresh again, neither is.
I’m not still worrying about it, most of the time. It’s interesting to see how all these threads turned out. I’m no longer especially active here, although I still find it a great place. My intention was never to come arguing for religion, as obviously you’ve made up your minds, but I was a bit disappointed in the reactionary nature of the responses. I have since found the types of arguments I was looking for, however, and I would highly recommend this book—The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions, by David Berlinski (a secular jew and mathematician).
But of course there is no place for such impossible questions in most of everyday life. God and religion need to be pondered sometimes, but I’m done for now.
I did not find The Devil’s Delusion to be persuasive/good at all. It’s scientific quality is perhaps best summarized by noting that Berlinski is an opponent of evolution; I also recall that Berlinski spent an enormous amount of time on the (irrelevant) topic of whether some atheists had been evil.
ETA: Actually, now that I think about, The Devil’s Delusion is probably why I tend to ignore or look down on atheists who spend lots of time arguing that God would be evil (e.g. Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris)- I feel like they’re making the same mistake, but on the opposite side.
Berlinski’s thesis is not that evolution is incorrect or that atheists are evil; rather it is that our modern scientific system has just as many gaping holes in it as does any proper theology. Evolution is not incorrect, but the way it’s interpreted to refute God is completely unfounded. Its scientific quality is in fact quite good; do you have any specific corrections or is it just that anything critical of Darwin is surely wrong?
How so? Someone involved with CFAR allegedly converted to Catholicism due to an argument-from-morality. Also, I know looking at the Biblical order to kill Isaac, and a general call to murder that I wasn’t following, helped me to realize I didn’t believe in God as such.
My point is that various atheists may wish to convince people who actually exist. Such people may give credence to the traditional argument from morality, or may think they believe claims about God while anticipating the opposite.
Are we ever allowed to say “okay, we have evaluated this issue thoroughly, and this is our conclusion; let’s end this debate for now”? Are we allowed to do it even if some other people disagree with the conclusion? Or do we have to continue the debate forever (of course, unless we reach the one very specific predetermined answer)?
Sometimes we probably should doubt even whether 2+2=4. But not all the time! Not even once in a month. Once or twice in a (pre-Singularity) lifetime is probably more than necessary. -- Well, it’s very similar for the religion.
There are thousands of issues worth thinking about. Why waste the limited resources on this specific topic? Why not something useful… such as curing the cancer, or even how to invent a better mousetrap?
Most of us have evaluated the both sides of this issue. Some of us did it for years. We did it. It’s done. It’s over. -- Of course, unless there is something really new and really unexpected and really convincing… but so far, there isn’t anything. Why debate it forever? Just because some other people are obsessed?
So, I basically agree with you, but I choose to point out the irony of this as a response to a thread gone quiet for months.
LOL
I guess instead of the purple boxes of unread comments, we should have two colors for unread new comments and unread old comments. (Or I should learn to look at the dates, but that seems less effective.)
(blinks)
Oh, is THAT what those purple boxes are!?!
learns a thing *
Wait, what purple boxes? Am I missing something?
As I respond to this, your comment is outlined in a wide purple border. When I submit this response, I expect that your comment will no longer be outlined, but my comment will. If I refresh the screen, I expect neither of ours will.
This has been true since I started reading LW again recently, and I have mostly been paying no attention to it, figuring it was some kind of “current selection” indicator that wasn’t working very well. But if it’s an “unread comment” indicator, then it works a lot better.
Edit—I was close. When I submit, your comment is still purple, and mine isn’t. If I refresh once, yours isn’t and mine is. If I refresh again, neither is.
Oh now I see. Both of our comments are purple-boxed. Let’s see what happens when I comment and refresh.
I’m not still worrying about it, most of the time. It’s interesting to see how all these threads turned out. I’m no longer especially active here, although I still find it a great place. My intention was never to come arguing for religion, as obviously you’ve made up your minds, but I was a bit disappointed in the reactionary nature of the responses. I have since found the types of arguments I was looking for, however, and I would highly recommend this book—The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions, by David Berlinski (a secular jew and mathematician).
But of course there is no place for such impossible questions in most of everyday life. God and religion need to be pondered sometimes, but I’m done for now.
From the book’s website:
I guess there is some tension between “narrow and oppressive orthodoxy of thought and opinion” and “willing to believe in anything”...
Willing to believe in anything the oppressive orthodoxy (“Science”) claims to have proven, I think.
I did not find The Devil’s Delusion to be persuasive/good at all. It’s scientific quality is perhaps best summarized by noting that Berlinski is an opponent of evolution; I also recall that Berlinski spent an enormous amount of time on the (irrelevant) topic of whether some atheists had been evil.
ETA: Actually, now that I think about, The Devil’s Delusion is probably why I tend to ignore or look down on atheists who spend lots of time arguing that God would be evil (e.g. Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris)- I feel like they’re making the same mistake, but on the opposite side.
Berlinski’s thesis is not that evolution is incorrect or that atheists are evil; rather it is that our modern scientific system has just as many gaping holes in it as does any proper theology. Evolution is not incorrect, but the way it’s interpreted to refute God is completely unfounded. Its scientific quality is in fact quite good; do you have any specific corrections or is it just that anything critical of Darwin is surely wrong?
How so? Someone involved with CFAR allegedly converted to Catholicism due to an argument-from-morality. Also, I know looking at the Biblical order to kill Isaac, and a general call to murder that I wasn’t following, helped me to realize I didn’t believe in God as such.
This is evidence that arguments-from-morality do persuade people, not that they should.
My point is that various atheists may wish to convince people who actually exist. Such people may give credence to the traditional argument from morality, or may think they believe claims about God while anticipating the opposite.