Creepy behaviour is behaviour that tends to make others feel unsafe or uncomfortable.
It would be really good to have a definition that had some shreds of objectivity to it. As it stands your definition simply assigns to one person the responsibility for another person’s feelings. This is infantilizing to the ‘victim’ and places the ‘perpetrator’ at the mercy of the “victim’s” subjectivity.
The alleged safeguard that a significant fraction must agree the behavior is creepy is rarely applied in practice. “If you made her feel creeped out, man, that’s creepy”.
In practice this definition of creepiness is almost solely used against men. I had a female colleague (many, actually over the years) who wore inappropriately ‘hot’ outfits at work and behaved in overtly sexual ways that left me feeling uncomfortable. One cannot complain about this because it is “slut shaming”.
I notice a disturbing trend for rationality orientated groups to be invaded by people who like to impose long lists of rules about acceptable behavior and speech, generally with a feminist flavor. These people generally have made little to no contribution to the groups in question. I see here for example OP’s first post here was all of three months ago. The open source and atheism communities have seen similar phenomena.
We need to expose these people and their ideas to full rational scrutiny. I have read a lot of feminism literature and I believe that the field could benefit significantly from an infusion of LW style rationality.
Finally can I point out a clear source of irrational thinking that tends to surface in these discussions: the “protective instinct” towards women. For reasons that don’t particularly matter in this context, when we see women (or children) at the risk of harm, powerful emotions arise. Thus, if you want a massacre to sound as bad as possible you say “100 people were killed including 50 women and children.” In movies, it is almost always unacceptable for a sympathetic female character to be killed (read any guide to writing move scripts).
As it stands your definition simply assigns to one person the responsibility for another person’s feelings. This is infantilizing to the ‘victim’ and places the ‘perpetrator’ at the mercy of the “victim’s” subjectivity.
It seems to me that it is this argument that infantilizes the targets of harassment and other unwelcome behaviour we’re lumping under “creepy”. It only works if these targets are “gormless, passive babies who can’t be trusted to make decisions for themselves”. (That link is on “trigger warnings” but applies here for the same reasons.)
Allowing people to define their own subjective states (“this is how I feel”) seems to me to in fact be the opposite of infantilizing.
“Oh no we’ll all be in trouble if this sort of behaviour is explicitly forbidden” is actually quite a common response in these sorts of discussions, and it is discussed and addressed in the OP’s links.
… how many commenters here have actually read those links? :/
It seems to me that it is this argument that infantilizes the targets of harassment and other unwelcome behaviour we’re lumping under “creepy”.
The problem is that it is not specific behavior that is forbidden. It is more like “making advances while male to someone to who finds you unattractive at the time, or later on” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY) or, in another context “driving while black”.
Actually that’s a very useful and powerful analogy because it also references ingroup vs. outgroup asymmetry, and how that is a driver for power imbalance and perceptions.
… did you even read the post you are replying to? :/
“Allowing people to define their own subjective states (“this is how I feel”) seems to me to in fact be the opposite of infantilizing.”
This has nothing to do with whether defining “creepiness” by how people feel is infantilising. Defining any behaviour that affects someones feelings a certain way is not even close to “allowing people to define their own subjective states.”
As it stands it’s so barely related I have to assume as well as not reading the post you are replying to you are also misusing define.
Creepy behaviour is behaviour that tends to make others feel unsafe or uncomfortable.
It would be really good to have a definition that had some shreds of objectivity to it. As it stands your definition simply assigns to one person the responsibility for another person’s feelings.
Um, no. There is legal precedent for this phrasing in related contexts, albeit with the understandable proviso that the behavior must be “reasonably believed” to be threatening. This is pretty much what we’re dealing with here: the whole problem with creepy behavior (as opposed to merely being awkward or anti-social) is that it puts people’s personal safety at risk.
If you add language that says “reasonably interpreted to be threatening” you are getting closer to an objective test. But that is not what was proposed here. The problem occurs when you assign to one person the responsibility for another person’s feelings, irrespective of the context or reasonableness.
It would be really good to have a definition that had some shreds of objectivity to it.
The problem with this is that there is no objectivity. It’s not just about the behavior, or the “perpetrator”, or the “victim”. It’s the intersection of all of them and it’s basically dependent on how the “victim” interprets certain aspects of the “perpetrator’s” behavior- which is hugely biased by the personal characteristics of the “perpetrator”. A hot guy walking up to a girl in a bar is flattering. An ugly guy doing the exact same thing is creepy. A confident guy using a line is an segue to flirtation. A nervous guy using the exact same line is creepy.
This makes it really difficult to teach people to not be creepy by telling them specific actions to take or not take. Much more useful would be a guide with certain tests that people could put out there to gauge the “temperature” of social situations before committing to a course of action.
It would be really good to have a definition that had some shreds of objectivity to it. As it stands your definition simply assigns to one person the responsibility for another person’s feelings. This is infantilizing to the ‘victim’ and places the ‘perpetrator’ at the mercy of the “victim’s” subjectivity.
The alleged safeguard that a significant fraction must agree the behavior is creepy is rarely applied in practice. “If you made her feel creeped out, man, that’s creepy”.
In practice this definition of creepiness is almost solely used against men. I had a female colleague (many, actually over the years) who wore inappropriately ‘hot’ outfits at work and behaved in overtly sexual ways that left me feeling uncomfortable. One cannot complain about this because it is “slut shaming”.
I notice a disturbing trend for rationality orientated groups to be invaded by people who like to impose long lists of rules about acceptable behavior and speech, generally with a feminist flavor. These people generally have made little to no contribution to the groups in question. I see here for example OP’s first post here was all of three months ago. The open source and atheism communities have seen similar phenomena.
We need to expose these people and their ideas to full rational scrutiny. I have read a lot of feminism literature and I believe that the field could benefit significantly from an infusion of LW style rationality.
Finally can I point out a clear source of irrational thinking that tends to surface in these discussions: the “protective instinct” towards women. For reasons that don’t particularly matter in this context, when we see women (or children) at the risk of harm, powerful emotions arise. Thus, if you want a massacre to sound as bad as possible you say “100 people were killed including 50 women and children.” In movies, it is almost always unacceptable for a sympathetic female character to be killed (read any guide to writing move scripts).
Science fiction conventions too. Clearly, this is an outrage.
It seems to me that it is this argument that infantilizes the targets of harassment and other unwelcome behaviour we’re lumping under “creepy”. It only works if these targets are “gormless, passive babies who can’t be trusted to make decisions for themselves”. (That link is on “trigger warnings” but applies here for the same reasons.)
Allowing people to define their own subjective states (“this is how I feel”) seems to me to in fact be the opposite of infantilizing.
“Oh no we’ll all be in trouble if this sort of behaviour is explicitly forbidden” is actually quite a common response in these sorts of discussions, and it is discussed and addressed in the OP’s links.
… how many commenters here have actually read those links? :/
At least one (myself). And many others like them.
The problem is that it is not specific behavior that is forbidden. It is more like “making advances while male to someone to who finds you unattractive at the time, or later on” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY) or, in another context “driving while black”.
Actually that’s a very useful and powerful analogy because it also references ingroup vs. outgroup asymmetry, and how that is a driver for power imbalance and perceptions.
… did you even read the post you are replying to? :/
“Allowing people to define their own subjective states (“this is how I feel”) seems to me to in fact be the opposite of infantilizing.”
This has nothing to do with whether defining “creepiness” by how people feel is infantilising. Defining any behaviour that affects someones feelings a certain way is not even close to “allowing people to define their own subjective states.”
As it stands it’s so barely related I have to assume as well as not reading the post you are replying to you are also misusing define.
Um, no. There is legal precedent for this phrasing in related contexts, albeit with the understandable proviso that the behavior must be “reasonably believed” to be threatening. This is pretty much what we’re dealing with here: the whole problem with creepy behavior (as opposed to merely being awkward or anti-social) is that it puts people’s personal safety at risk.
If you add language that says “reasonably interpreted to be threatening” you are getting closer to an objective test. But that is not what was proposed here. The problem occurs when you assign to one person the responsibility for another person’s feelings, irrespective of the context or reasonableness.
Yes, to the vast benefit of both.
This is argument by assertion. What evidence do you have for “this vast benefit”?
The problem with this is that there is no objectivity. It’s not just about the behavior, or the “perpetrator”, or the “victim”. It’s the intersection of all of them and it’s basically dependent on how the “victim” interprets certain aspects of the “perpetrator’s” behavior- which is hugely biased by the personal characteristics of the “perpetrator”. A hot guy walking up to a girl in a bar is flattering. An ugly guy doing the exact same thing is creepy. A confident guy using a line is an segue to flirtation. A nervous guy using the exact same line is creepy.
This makes it really difficult to teach people to not be creepy by telling them specific actions to take or not take. Much more useful would be a guide with certain tests that people could put out there to gauge the “temperature” of social situations before committing to a course of action.