Speakers of multiple languages: have you noticed a similar pattern in your own lives?
The most obvious difference to me is that I can tolerate and even enjoy some things in English that I am unable to tolerate in German. For example, when I hear certain kinds of Hip hop or gangster rap in German I am instantly disgusted. When I hear similar lyrics in English then I am merely amused.
I am also much quicker to dislike people who speak German than people who speak English. For example, if I listen to some of what American politicians say I am just amused. If people utter similar things in German then my emotional reaction is much stronger.
I’m a native Finnish speaker and I too have a stronger revulsion towards ugly songs when they’re sung in Finnish.
My guess is we just don’t mind it as much when it’s some other language that’s being used to create ugliness. Shortcomings by the (perceived) home team often feel like something that might be held against you, hence the need to signal disapproval more strongly.
I’m half-Ukrainian, half-Russian, and I find pop songs in English basically ‘comfortable noise’, in French ‘beautiful exercises in phonetics’ (since French ‘r’s are strikingly different to what I am used to), in Russian ‘depressingly monotonous/how do they even think this is to my tastes?‘, and in Ukrainian… I either think of them as ‘derived from Russian’, or wait for my favorite lines without paying attention to the rest:)
This is interesting because I find it counterintuitive. I would have thought that the tendency would be the opposite: that, for a given thought, expressing that thought in German (your native language) would tend to make it more sympathetic to you rather than less (all else being equal).
Data such as this may force me to reevaluate my predictions of the effect one might have on an audience by speaking to them in their native language.
The effect in question is actually attenuation through mediation: most people can attest to the fact that foreign swear words are not perceived as strongly as the native ones, even if the meaning and usage is identical. Having an intermediate step of translation reduces emotional impact. Not surprisingly, the effect wears off after living long enough in the new environment. This has little to do with framing.
I don’t know what you mean by “framing” here, but the takeaway for me is that speaking someone’s language doesn’t necessarily earn you “points”.
E.g. XiXiDu doesn’t say, “Well, this may be gangster rap, but at least it’s in German!”
(In retrospect, I’ve had opportunities to notice this before. For instance, Amanda Knox seemed to get less “credit” for speaking Italian than I would have expected.)
It sounds like you’re not treating foreign language speakers as members of your society, so when they say violent or politically abhorrent things, you don’t get worked up about it because they’re not plausible threats. They’re part of a different community, they’re someone else’s problem.
Regarding music, I certainly find I can accept mindless bubblegum pop a lot better if it’s in Japanese than in my native English. That might be a different phenomenon though.
Regarding music, I certainly find I can accept mindless bubblegum pop a lot better if it’s in Japanese than in my native English. That might be a different phenomenon though.
My native tongue is also German, and I can confirm your statements.
Well, it’s just anecdotal evidence, but here are my observations:
When I’m writing text in English, I take more time to express my thoughts, rewriting passages until I think they actually express what I mean. This might make my statements more precise and thought-through than otherwise. I have especially noticed that effect on IRC: While, when I’m in a German channel, I just write my thoughts down as they come, in #lesswrong, when I’m trying to make a point, writing stuff takes longer, and the discussion might have already flown on once I’m ready for submitting my ponderings.
When I’m writing text in English, I take more time to express my thoughts...
I think that I might be an outlier in that respect.
I was really bad in school (or didn’t care / couldn’t deal with the setting (probably complex reasons)) which resulted in a noticeable deficit when it comes to punctuation and spelling in German. Which would result in a lot of criticism and ridicule and therefore caused me to largely avoid textual discussions in German.
So how come I ended up taking part in English discussions instead?
A relevant fact here is that the first online game I began to play, back in the year 2000, was mainly played by people from the U.S. and Australia. I played it for over 5 years. In addition to my basic knowledge gained at school, that time allowed me acquire a vocabulary and reading comprehension that would serve as a plateau for reading more advanced English content and later books.
The result was that I ended up with good enough English to feel confident to take part in some online discussions. Most of that confidence came from the fact that English wasn’t my first language. It was an excuse that I didn’t have when writing German.
My German punctuation and spelling is still bad. But I am planning on improving it up to the level that is necessary to write quickly and accurately. That is not a priority though. Math is more important.
So you might actually take more time to express your thoughts in English. But due to the above I am not sure if that is true for me as well. Another reason I doubt this is that not thinking things through is generally one of my biggest shortcomings. But I am trying to fix that.
The most obvious difference to me is that I can tolerate and even enjoy some things in English that I am unable to tolerate in German. For example, when I hear certain kinds of Hip hop or gangster rap in German I am instantly disgusted. When I hear similar lyrics in English then I am merely amused.
I am also much quicker to dislike people who speak German than people who speak English. For example, if I listen to some of what American politicians say I am just amused. If people utter similar things in German then my emotional reaction is much stronger.
FWIW, I’m from Germany and feel the same way.
I wonder if folks from other countries experience comparable phenomena? Or is German just an unusually annoying language?
I’m a native Finnish speaker and I too have a stronger revulsion towards ugly songs when they’re sung in Finnish.
My guess is we just don’t mind it as much when it’s some other language that’s being used to create ugliness. Shortcomings by the (perceived) home team often feel like something that might be held against you, hence the need to signal disapproval more strongly.
I’m half-Ukrainian, half-Russian, and I find pop songs in English basically ‘comfortable noise’, in French ‘beautiful exercises in phonetics’ (since French ‘r’s are strikingly different to what I am used to), in Russian ‘depressingly monotonous/how do they even think this is to my tastes?‘, and in Ukrainian… I either think of them as ‘derived from Russian’, or wait for my favorite lines without paying attention to the rest:)
This is interesting because I find it counterintuitive. I would have thought that the tendency would be the opposite: that, for a given thought, expressing that thought in German (your native language) would tend to make it more sympathetic to you rather than less (all else being equal).
Data such as this may force me to reevaluate my predictions of the effect one might have on an audience by speaking to them in their native language.
The effect in question is actually attenuation through mediation: most people can attest to the fact that foreign swear words are not perceived as strongly as the native ones, even if the meaning and usage is identical. Having an intermediate step of translation reduces emotional impact. Not surprisingly, the effect wears off after living long enough in the new environment. This has little to do with framing.
I don’t know what you mean by “framing” here, but the takeaway for me is that speaking someone’s language doesn’t necessarily earn you “points”.
E.g. XiXiDu doesn’t say, “Well, this may be gangster rap, but at least it’s in German!”
(In retrospect, I’ve had opportunities to notice this before. For instance, Amanda Knox seemed to get less “credit” for speaking Italian than I would have expected.)
It sounds like you’re not treating foreign language speakers as members of your society, so when they say violent or politically abhorrent things, you don’t get worked up about it because they’re not plausible threats. They’re part of a different community, they’re someone else’s problem.
Regarding music, I certainly find I can accept mindless bubblegum pop a lot better if it’s in Japanese than in my native English. That might be a different phenomenon though.
Or simply a different kind of ‘threat’.
My native tongue is also German, and I can confirm your statements.
Well, it’s just anecdotal evidence, but here are my observations:
When I’m writing text in English, I take more time to express my thoughts, rewriting passages until I think they actually express what I mean. This might make my statements more precise and thought-through than otherwise. I have especially noticed that effect on IRC: While, when I’m in a German channel, I just write my thoughts down as they come, in #lesswrong, when I’m trying to make a point, writing stuff takes longer, and the discussion might have already flown on once I’m ready for submitting my ponderings.
I think that I might be an outlier in that respect.
I was really bad in school (or didn’t care / couldn’t deal with the setting (probably complex reasons)) which resulted in a noticeable deficit when it comes to punctuation and spelling in German. Which would result in a lot of criticism and ridicule and therefore caused me to largely avoid textual discussions in German.
So how come I ended up taking part in English discussions instead?
A relevant fact here is that the first online game I began to play, back in the year 2000, was mainly played by people from the U.S. and Australia. I played it for over 5 years. In addition to my basic knowledge gained at school, that time allowed me acquire a vocabulary and reading comprehension that would serve as a plateau for reading more advanced English content and later books.
The result was that I ended up with good enough English to feel confident to take part in some online discussions. Most of that confidence came from the fact that English wasn’t my first language. It was an excuse that I didn’t have when writing German.
My German punctuation and spelling is still bad. But I am planning on improving it up to the level that is necessary to write quickly and accurately. That is not a priority though. Math is more important.
So you might actually take more time to express your thoughts in English. But due to the above I am not sure if that is true for me as well. Another reason I doubt this is that not thinking things through is generally one of my biggest shortcomings. But I am trying to fix that.