Because it insinuates that my feelings are divorced from reality. Thankfully, it’s easy enough to defuse.
A: Buy my fish
B: No
A: It sounds like you feel like you ought to experience some kind of aversion toward my fish. If so, I would really like to understand it better. Can you please describe it to me using subjective language like “I feel like I ought to experience some kind of aversion toward your fish because...”
B: Because it stinks
A: No, no. Say “I feel that I don’t like it”
B: …
A: Say “I feel like I ought to experience an aversion to it”
B: …
A: We’re making progress! Now we can really get to the root of your feeling like you ought to experience some kind of aversion toward buying my fish. Communication is so important. Blah blah
B: Whatever man, good luck selling your fish (walks away)
As PDV correctly points out, bad things happen if B is penalized for walking away. Better not to have such situations.
Because it insinuates that my feelings are divorced from reality.
I want to point out that another less loaded phrase we have for this is “distinguishing the map from the territory.”
I hope we can all agree that B should not be penalized for walking away, and that A in your example is either pretty bad at NVC or abusing it. I think I know Val enough to be reasonably confident that his intent was not to insinuate that anyone’s feelings are divorced from reality, but just to acknowledge that PDV has strong feelings about this topic (the word “evil” is not particularly neutral) and that he doesn’t understand them yet. B in your dialogue doesn’t have a strong feeling about the fish (I imagine), he just doesn’t want them.
Let’s look at the dialogue from B’s perspective. My reading of it is that he does have a strong feeling, or opinion, about the fish. They smell bad, they probably aren’t fresh, they may be more likely to make him sick if he eats them. Now, what’s A done here?
1 He’s changed the subject. They were discussing A’s fish; now they’re discussing B’s feelings.
2 He’s made a status grab. If A says “let’s talk about your feelings” and B complies, that puts A in the position of therapist or teacher or something of the sort.
3 He’s implied B is wrong about the fish. Conversational implicatures: If B says “your fish are bad” and A says “so, tell me about your feelings about my fish”, A is presupposing that B’s feelings aren’t simply a consequence of the badness of the fish.
4 He’s implied B is being unreasonable. Conversational implicatures again.
5 He’s done these things implicitly which means that if B objects and tries to get back onto the subject of the fish, or to defend himself from the charge of unreasonableness, he is liable to look like he’s being petty.
It is not surprising if B doesn’t like this.
Now, to be clear, you’re not wrong about map and territory. Sometimes B will react negatively to A’s fish, and the reason really will lie in B’s quirks rather than any deficiency in the fish. This is one reason why it may well be a good idea for B to take an NVC-ish approach and begin by talking about his reaction to the fish rather than about the Fish-In-Themselves. (Well … probably not, actually, in this example. But in the situations it’s a metaphor for.) And if B charges in accusing A of selling rotten fish, then A is likely to get offended and defensive; that’s another reason why B may choose to do the NVC thing.
But it’s a different matter if A tries to oblige B to do that, especially if B has already made an object-level criticism of the Fish-In-Themselves. And, in a world where fishmongers do sometimes sell bad fish, it’s probably not a good idea to have norms that say B should never begin by criticizing the fish.
Returning from the metaphor to the reality of this thread for a moment: of course Valentine didn’t say anything like “PDV, you are obliged to respond by talking about your feelings”. Quite the reverse: he said “My preference would be...”. That’s surely better than trying to impose a literal obligation; but it’s easy enough (and not obviously wrong) to read Valentine’s words as trying to impose a social obligation. “Valentine’s made this reasonable request, and asked politely, and explained why; the least you can do is to comply”.
One more remark: sometimes B will react negatively, the reason will lie in B’s quirks, and B will be unable or unwilling to see this. In that case, perhaps A’s best course of action really is to expose B’s peculiarities somehow. But I think usually not: better to show that the fish are OK, and let others draw their own conclusions about why B thinks otherwise.
I think it’s a bit creepy to focus attention on Bob’s map while talking to Bob. Instead, talk about the territory (“my fish has beautiful scales”) and let Bob deal with his map. If you don’t trust him to do that right, why should he trust you?
For example, when PDV says “I think circling is evil”, it’s a bit creepy to reply with “I get the impression that you feel strongly about this” etc. A better reply is something like “nobody would ever use circling to manipulate you”.
I’m confused about this. Isn’t this the sort of thing we do when trying to point out each other’s biases or flaws in reasoning and so forth?
I’m willing to get on board the “circling / NVC should not be done at someone without their consent” train in general, though. In the circles I’ve been in everyone has explicitly opted into the circle and explicitly has permission to leave at any time if they feel they need to to protect themselves from whatever.
A better reply is something like “nobody would ever use circling to manipulate you”.
I’m willing to get on board the “circling / NVC should not be done at someone without their consent” train in general, though. In the circles I’ve been in everyone has explicitly opted into the circle and explicitly has permission to leave at any time if they feel they need to to protect themselves from whatever.
I am worried that here this train actually means things like, “Don’t express your feelings or ask about mine” and “If you express preferences about how I communicate and the topic is emotionally laden, then you’re making a status grab and should be ashamed.”
Me too, but I think I’m still willing to err on the side of caution anyway. Once again, the analogy to sex: there’s something useful about there being safe spaces where people aren’t allowed to flirt with / hit on each other, or even express sexual / romantic preferences, so nobody has to deal with the resulting social pressure / awkwardness / power dynamics, even if I think in general flirtation and romance is good and even if I think there’s something awful about clamping down on expressing sexual / romantic preferences in general.
there’s something useful about there being safe spaces where people aren’t allowed to flirt with / hit on each other
That is true, but something that’s a safe space for one kind of a person often hurts another kind of person. For something like “do not flirt with each other or otherwise express sexuality”, there is a clear case for why having that norm is the better tradeoff in many situations… but for something like “do not express your feelings or let other people know what would make communication easier for you”, it is much less obvious to me that this is the norm that helps more people than it hurts. (to be clear, the same is true for the reverse case; I’m genuinely expressing uncertainty rather than implying that one of them would be clearly better/worse)
I feel like “don’t circle at people without their consent” is meaningfully different from “do not express your feelings or let other people know what would make communication easier for you.” Very few people have ever circled, but nearly everyone can express feelings and preferences.
That rule might exclude people who only have one script for expressing feelings and preferences, however, which is a particular concern in a community where so many people rely on scripts to communicate.
I agree that they are different; I was thinking in the context of Val’s worry that trying to enforce a rule of “no circling / NVC on LW without express consent” will in practice become interpreted as
“Don’t express your feelings or ask about mine” and “If you express preferences about how I communicate and the topic is emotionally laden, then you’re making a status grab and should be ashamed.”
I don’t understand which part you don’t understand. Part of the disagreement we’re hashing out here, as I understand it, is about how bad it is to do circling / NVC to someone without them having consented to it in advance (e.g. Val writing the last paragraph in that one comment above). My opinion on this issue is complicated but I’m willing to respect a Schelling fence erected around “let’s just not do it to people without their consent in general.”
There are certain standard cultural norms of how people talk in US society. Any deviation from those standard cultural norms requires consent by the other party.
Given that default cultural norms are driven by memetic evolution into a state that’s quite horrible, I don’t think that’s a good position.
Cultural norms that make people more connected with their felt sense lead to communications that are more likely to have good psychological effects.
Look, once again, the analogy to sex: there are certain standard cultural norms for how people flirt, have sex, etc. in US society. There are many reasons to disagree with these cultural norms. I am still not going to (substantially) deviate from them at someone without their consent, because I don’t get to decide for them what their boundaries are.
There are lots of defenses / counters to this happening in a circle, FWIW. At least with folks who know what they’re doing / experienced Circlers, “A” would not be able to get away with this without pushback.
Because it insinuates that my feelings are divorced from reality. Thankfully, it’s easy enough to defuse.
As PDV correctly points out, bad things happen if B is penalized for walking away. Better not to have such situations.
I want to point out that another less loaded phrase we have for this is “distinguishing the map from the territory.”
I hope we can all agree that B should not be penalized for walking away, and that A in your example is either pretty bad at NVC or abusing it. I think I know Val enough to be reasonably confident that his intent was not to insinuate that anyone’s feelings are divorced from reality, but just to acknowledge that PDV has strong feelings about this topic (the word “evil” is not particularly neutral) and that he doesn’t understand them yet. B in your dialogue doesn’t have a strong feeling about the fish (I imagine), he just doesn’t want them.
Let’s look at the dialogue from B’s perspective. My reading of it is that he does have a strong feeling, or opinion, about the fish. They smell bad, they probably aren’t fresh, they may be more likely to make him sick if he eats them. Now, what’s A done here?
1 He’s changed the subject. They were discussing A’s fish; now they’re discussing B’s feelings.
2 He’s made a status grab. If A says “let’s talk about your feelings” and B complies, that puts A in the position of therapist or teacher or something of the sort.
3 He’s implied B is wrong about the fish. Conversational implicatures: If B says “your fish are bad” and A says “so, tell me about your feelings about my fish”, A is presupposing that B’s feelings aren’t simply a consequence of the badness of the fish.
4 He’s implied B is being unreasonable. Conversational implicatures again.
5 He’s done these things implicitly which means that if B objects and tries to get back onto the subject of the fish, or to defend himself from the charge of unreasonableness, he is liable to look like he’s being petty.
It is not surprising if B doesn’t like this.
Now, to be clear, you’re not wrong about map and territory. Sometimes B will react negatively to A’s fish, and the reason really will lie in B’s quirks rather than any deficiency in the fish. This is one reason why it may well be a good idea for B to take an NVC-ish approach and begin by talking about his reaction to the fish rather than about the Fish-In-Themselves. (Well … probably not, actually, in this example. But in the situations it’s a metaphor for.) And if B charges in accusing A of selling rotten fish, then A is likely to get offended and defensive; that’s another reason why B may choose to do the NVC thing.
But it’s a different matter if A tries to oblige B to do that, especially if B has already made an object-level criticism of the Fish-In-Themselves. And, in a world where fishmongers do sometimes sell bad fish, it’s probably not a good idea to have norms that say B should never begin by criticizing the fish.
Returning from the metaphor to the reality of this thread for a moment: of course Valentine didn’t say anything like “PDV, you are obliged to respond by talking about your feelings”. Quite the reverse: he said “My preference would be...”. That’s surely better than trying to impose a literal obligation; but it’s easy enough (and not obviously wrong) to read Valentine’s words as trying to impose a social obligation. “Valentine’s made this reasonable request, and asked politely, and explained why; the least you can do is to comply”.
One more remark: sometimes B will react negatively, the reason will lie in B’s quirks, and B will be unable or unwilling to see this. In that case, perhaps A’s best course of action really is to expose B’s peculiarities somehow. But I think usually not: better to show that the fish are OK, and let others draw their own conclusions about why B thinks otherwise.
This is an accurate description of my mental state in this situation.
I think it’s a bit creepy to focus attention on Bob’s map while talking to Bob. Instead, talk about the territory (“my fish has beautiful scales”) and let Bob deal with his map. If you don’t trust him to do that right, why should he trust you?
For example, when PDV says “I think circling is evil”, it’s a bit creepy to reply with “I get the impression that you feel strongly about this” etc. A better reply is something like “nobody would ever use circling to manipulate you”.
I’m confused about this. Isn’t this the sort of thing we do when trying to point out each other’s biases or flaws in reasoning and so forth?
I’m willing to get on board the “circling / NVC should not be done at someone without their consent” train in general, though. In the circles I’ve been in everyone has explicitly opted into the circle and explicitly has permission to leave at any time if they feel they need to to protect themselves from whatever.
Well, I certainly can’t guarantee that.
I am worried that here this train actually means things like, “Don’t express your feelings or ask about mine” and “If you express preferences about how I communicate and the topic is emotionally laden, then you’re making a status grab and should be ashamed.”
Me too, but I think I’m still willing to err on the side of caution anyway. Once again, the analogy to sex: there’s something useful about there being safe spaces where people aren’t allowed to flirt with / hit on each other, or even express sexual / romantic preferences, so nobody has to deal with the resulting social pressure / awkwardness / power dynamics, even if I think in general flirtation and romance is good and even if I think there’s something awful about clamping down on expressing sexual / romantic preferences in general.
there’s something useful about there being safe spaces where people aren’t allowed to flirt with / hit on each other
That is true, but something that’s a safe space for one kind of a person often hurts another kind of person. For something like “do not flirt with each other or otherwise express sexuality”, there is a clear case for why having that norm is the better tradeoff in many situations… but for something like “do not express your feelings or let other people know what would make communication easier for you”, it is much less obvious to me that this is the norm that helps more people than it hurts. (to be clear, the same is true for the reverse case; I’m genuinely expressing uncertainty rather than implying that one of them would be clearly better/worse)
I feel like “don’t circle at people without their consent” is meaningfully different from “do not express your feelings or let other people know what would make communication easier for you.” Very few people have ever circled, but nearly everyone can express feelings and preferences.
That rule might exclude people who only have one script for expressing feelings and preferences, however, which is a particular concern in a community where so many people rely on scripts to communicate.
I agree that they are different; I was thinking in the context of Val’s worry that trying to enforce a rule of “no circling / NVC on LW without express consent” will in practice become interpreted as
Circling isn’t just about expressing feelings or preference but it’s about being explicit about relating.
It’s not just saying “I’m sad” but saying “When you said X that made me sad”. Circling is also less about scripts than NVC.
What exactly do you mean with that?
I don’t understand which part you don’t understand. Part of the disagreement we’re hashing out here, as I understand it, is about how bad it is to do circling / NVC to someone without them having consented to it in advance (e.g. Val writing the last paragraph in that one comment above). My opinion on this issue is complicated but I’m willing to respect a Schelling fence erected around “let’s just not do it to people without their consent in general.”
For me that position sounds like:
There are certain standard cultural norms of how people talk in US society. Any deviation from those standard cultural norms requires consent by the other party.
Given that default cultural norms are driven by memetic evolution into a state that’s quite horrible, I don’t think that’s a good position.
Cultural norms that make people more connected with their felt sense lead to communications that are more likely to have good psychological effects.
Look, once again, the analogy to sex: there are certain standard cultural norms for how people flirt, have sex, etc. in US society. There are many reasons to disagree with these cultural norms. I am still not going to (substantially) deviate from them at someone without their consent, because I don’t get to decide for them what their boundaries are.
Yeah, “overcoming biases” often veers into “overcoming sales resistance”. I prefer trades that both sides want, even when one of them is biased.
There are lots of defenses / counters to this happening in a circle, FWIW. At least with folks who know what they’re doing / experienced Circlers, “A” would not be able to get away with this without pushback.
This is certainly the approach I endorse, but the voting patterns on this site indicate that my preference is, shall we say, far from universal.