I think it’s a bit creepy to focus attention on Bob’s map while talking to Bob. Instead, talk about the territory (“my fish has beautiful scales”) and let Bob deal with his map. If you don’t trust him to do that right, why should he trust you?
For example, when PDV says “I think circling is evil”, it’s a bit creepy to reply with “I get the impression that you feel strongly about this” etc. A better reply is something like “nobody would ever use circling to manipulate you”.
I’m confused about this. Isn’t this the sort of thing we do when trying to point out each other’s biases or flaws in reasoning and so forth?
I’m willing to get on board the “circling / NVC should not be done at someone without their consent” train in general, though. In the circles I’ve been in everyone has explicitly opted into the circle and explicitly has permission to leave at any time if they feel they need to to protect themselves from whatever.
A better reply is something like “nobody would ever use circling to manipulate you”.
I’m willing to get on board the “circling / NVC should not be done at someone without their consent” train in general, though. In the circles I’ve been in everyone has explicitly opted into the circle and explicitly has permission to leave at any time if they feel they need to to protect themselves from whatever.
I am worried that here this train actually means things like, “Don’t express your feelings or ask about mine” and “If you express preferences about how I communicate and the topic is emotionally laden, then you’re making a status grab and should be ashamed.”
Me too, but I think I’m still willing to err on the side of caution anyway. Once again, the analogy to sex: there’s something useful about there being safe spaces where people aren’t allowed to flirt with / hit on each other, or even express sexual / romantic preferences, so nobody has to deal with the resulting social pressure / awkwardness / power dynamics, even if I think in general flirtation and romance is good and even if I think there’s something awful about clamping down on expressing sexual / romantic preferences in general.
there’s something useful about there being safe spaces where people aren’t allowed to flirt with / hit on each other
That is true, but something that’s a safe space for one kind of a person often hurts another kind of person. For something like “do not flirt with each other or otherwise express sexuality”, there is a clear case for why having that norm is the better tradeoff in many situations… but for something like “do not express your feelings or let other people know what would make communication easier for you”, it is much less obvious to me that this is the norm that helps more people than it hurts. (to be clear, the same is true for the reverse case; I’m genuinely expressing uncertainty rather than implying that one of them would be clearly better/worse)
I feel like “don’t circle at people without their consent” is meaningfully different from “do not express your feelings or let other people know what would make communication easier for you.” Very few people have ever circled, but nearly everyone can express feelings and preferences.
That rule might exclude people who only have one script for expressing feelings and preferences, however, which is a particular concern in a community where so many people rely on scripts to communicate.
I agree that they are different; I was thinking in the context of Val’s worry that trying to enforce a rule of “no circling / NVC on LW without express consent” will in practice become interpreted as
“Don’t express your feelings or ask about mine” and “If you express preferences about how I communicate and the topic is emotionally laden, then you’re making a status grab and should be ashamed.”
I don’t understand which part you don’t understand. Part of the disagreement we’re hashing out here, as I understand it, is about how bad it is to do circling / NVC to someone without them having consented to it in advance (e.g. Val writing the last paragraph in that one comment above). My opinion on this issue is complicated but I’m willing to respect a Schelling fence erected around “let’s just not do it to people without their consent in general.”
There are certain standard cultural norms of how people talk in US society. Any deviation from those standard cultural norms requires consent by the other party.
Given that default cultural norms are driven by memetic evolution into a state that’s quite horrible, I don’t think that’s a good position.
Cultural norms that make people more connected with their felt sense lead to communications that are more likely to have good psychological effects.
Look, once again, the analogy to sex: there are certain standard cultural norms for how people flirt, have sex, etc. in US society. There are many reasons to disagree with these cultural norms. I am still not going to (substantially) deviate from them at someone without their consent, because I don’t get to decide for them what their boundaries are.
I think it’s a bit creepy to focus attention on Bob’s map while talking to Bob. Instead, talk about the territory (“my fish has beautiful scales”) and let Bob deal with his map. If you don’t trust him to do that right, why should he trust you?
For example, when PDV says “I think circling is evil”, it’s a bit creepy to reply with “I get the impression that you feel strongly about this” etc. A better reply is something like “nobody would ever use circling to manipulate you”.
I’m confused about this. Isn’t this the sort of thing we do when trying to point out each other’s biases or flaws in reasoning and so forth?
I’m willing to get on board the “circling / NVC should not be done at someone without their consent” train in general, though. In the circles I’ve been in everyone has explicitly opted into the circle and explicitly has permission to leave at any time if they feel they need to to protect themselves from whatever.
Well, I certainly can’t guarantee that.
I am worried that here this train actually means things like, “Don’t express your feelings or ask about mine” and “If you express preferences about how I communicate and the topic is emotionally laden, then you’re making a status grab and should be ashamed.”
Me too, but I think I’m still willing to err on the side of caution anyway. Once again, the analogy to sex: there’s something useful about there being safe spaces where people aren’t allowed to flirt with / hit on each other, or even express sexual / romantic preferences, so nobody has to deal with the resulting social pressure / awkwardness / power dynamics, even if I think in general flirtation and romance is good and even if I think there’s something awful about clamping down on expressing sexual / romantic preferences in general.
there’s something useful about there being safe spaces where people aren’t allowed to flirt with / hit on each other
That is true, but something that’s a safe space for one kind of a person often hurts another kind of person. For something like “do not flirt with each other or otherwise express sexuality”, there is a clear case for why having that norm is the better tradeoff in many situations… but for something like “do not express your feelings or let other people know what would make communication easier for you”, it is much less obvious to me that this is the norm that helps more people than it hurts. (to be clear, the same is true for the reverse case; I’m genuinely expressing uncertainty rather than implying that one of them would be clearly better/worse)
I feel like “don’t circle at people without their consent” is meaningfully different from “do not express your feelings or let other people know what would make communication easier for you.” Very few people have ever circled, but nearly everyone can express feelings and preferences.
That rule might exclude people who only have one script for expressing feelings and preferences, however, which is a particular concern in a community where so many people rely on scripts to communicate.
I agree that they are different; I was thinking in the context of Val’s worry that trying to enforce a rule of “no circling / NVC on LW without express consent” will in practice become interpreted as
Circling isn’t just about expressing feelings or preference but it’s about being explicit about relating.
It’s not just saying “I’m sad” but saying “When you said X that made me sad”. Circling is also less about scripts than NVC.
What exactly do you mean with that?
I don’t understand which part you don’t understand. Part of the disagreement we’re hashing out here, as I understand it, is about how bad it is to do circling / NVC to someone without them having consented to it in advance (e.g. Val writing the last paragraph in that one comment above). My opinion on this issue is complicated but I’m willing to respect a Schelling fence erected around “let’s just not do it to people without their consent in general.”
For me that position sounds like:
There are certain standard cultural norms of how people talk in US society. Any deviation from those standard cultural norms requires consent by the other party.
Given that default cultural norms are driven by memetic evolution into a state that’s quite horrible, I don’t think that’s a good position.
Cultural norms that make people more connected with their felt sense lead to communications that are more likely to have good psychological effects.
Look, once again, the analogy to sex: there are certain standard cultural norms for how people flirt, have sex, etc. in US society. There are many reasons to disagree with these cultural norms. I am still not going to (substantially) deviate from them at someone without their consent, because I don’t get to decide for them what their boundaries are.
Yeah, “overcoming biases” often veers into “overcoming sales resistance”. I prefer trades that both sides want, even when one of them is biased.