“BS detector going off like crazy… To start, have you learned to not get into quagmires in the first place?”
Challenge me directly. Don’t imply that you’re assuming that I got myself into those quagmires and then down-vote me for my completely warranted presumption that you’re assuming that the quagmires were my own fault. You want to tell me you think I probably brought all the quagmires onto myself? Do it. And support your point.
This person saying that their BS detector is going off is actually very useful for people reading and not something that I personally want to discourage. When one person says something like this, there are usually many who are thinking it and not saying it.
It takes courage and effort to actually say—this person is giving feedback, knowing that it will likely cause a negative backlash. It is very valuable when people step into the fire like that. While it is easier to respond to when people package their feedback in kind ways, giving feedback at all is a gift.
So, what do you want?
If you want to learn how to not set off the BS detectors of people like this, this person has just offered you information, and would likely be willing to unpack more if responded to with curiosity. I would imagine that would be much more valuable to you personally than winning an argument, and if you express curiosity and hear the other person out, they’ll be more likely to be interested in and listen to your points as well.
For examples of my walking my talk, here are a couple of cases where someone said something critical of the goals I’m shooting for, and I thanked them and asked the to elaborate:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/e26/who_wants_to_start_an_important_startup/77e3
This post is about starting start-ups, and her comment discusses reasons why it might be a bad idea. I easily could have gotten defensive and argued with her. What I did instead was to recognized that a lot of people have similar doubts, and to thank her for expressing those doubts and trying despite them, validating that she was trying despite her concerns—my hope was to encourage more people with similar concerns.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/e26/who_wants_to_start_an_important_startup/78ij
This is another example of someone talking on this post I started with the goal of starting start-ups, about how most start ups fail. Also in this case, I expressed gratitude, and it gave the the chance to elaborate a response to concerns that many people have, without invalidating the concern.
Also, as noted in the comments on that second link, I had several people give me very harsh feedback while I was in the process of writing this post. As an example, a friend predicted:
“No startup cofounder at any point in the future will say that their ideas were partially inspired by this post, unless it’s an extremely distant relation. To a first approximation, nothing happens.”
Largely because of the training I’ve had in how to deal with negative feedback, I did not get (very ;) defensive, and I quizzed these people about what I could do that would give the post the best chance of working. I do think it is because of my doing this, and these people being kind enough to give me their honest feedback even though they were concerned about what my reactions might be, that this post has been as successful as it has been. Its early yet to see if start-ups succeed, but I know of several people taking initial steps, and I’m optimistic that these discussions that are happening will have positive impact on a lot of people.
I intentionally picked examples dated prior to your post. Usually I would not bother to justify myself like this but I’ve decided that I like you.
Of course there are times when I disagree, also, and will continue to disagree until somebody gets somewhere or the discussion is lost to the sands of time. But I will not continue disagreement I don’t see a way to make the disagreement constructive. If I don’t think that it’s likely for me to get through to a person, I will choose my battles with them.
Shannon, thank you. I see what you’re trying to do here. However, in this particular case, I don’t feel the criticism is getting anyone anywhere. Shminux is essentially jumping to conclusions. Hearing them out is not going to change the fact that Shminux is jumping to conclusions, and it won’t convince me of anything. I hold myself to higher standards than that—I won’t allow myself to jump to conclusions with new people, so I don’t do like Shminux does and I do not particularly want to learn this jumping to conclusions technique. In hindsight, I saw that it’s probably a common bias. If you hadn’t noticed, I changed my wording a long time ago. I tried to point out Shminux’s bias once. That didn’t work. I liked my attempt, so I saved it for later. If getting a person to be aware of their bias doesn’t work, I move on. I see policing Shminux’s biased perceptions as Shminux’s responsibility. I tried it once, which was nice of me. I shouldn’t have to do it for them.
If you think there’s something I could learn here other than “Shminux is biased, which is a sign that other people might have the same bias, so it’s best not to trigger that particular bias.” then you’re going to have to be really clear because it does not look to me like there is any further to learn from Shminux’s comment.
I’ll try another approach. You said:
“BS detector going off like crazy… To start, have you learned to not get into quagmires in the first place?”
Challenge me directly. Don’t imply that you’re assuming that I got myself into those quagmires and then down-vote me for my completely warranted presumption that you’re assuming that the quagmires were my own fault. You want to tell me you think I probably brought all the quagmires onto myself? Do it. And support your point.
This person saying that their BS detector is going off is actually very useful for people reading and not something that I personally want to discourage. When one person says something like this, there are usually many who are thinking it and not saying it.
It takes courage and effort to actually say—this person is giving feedback, knowing that it will likely cause a negative backlash. It is very valuable when people step into the fire like that. While it is easier to respond to when people package their feedback in kind ways, giving feedback at all is a gift.
So, what do you want?
If you want to learn how to not set off the BS detectors of people like this, this person has just offered you information, and would likely be willing to unpack more if responded to with curiosity. I would imagine that would be much more valuable to you personally than winning an argument, and if you express curiosity and hear the other person out, they’ll be more likely to be interested in and listen to your points as well.
For examples of my walking my talk, here are a couple of cases where someone said something critical of the goals I’m shooting for, and I thanked them and asked the to elaborate:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/e26/who_wants_to_start_an_important_startup/77e3 This post is about starting start-ups, and her comment discusses reasons why it might be a bad idea. I easily could have gotten defensive and argued with her. What I did instead was to recognized that a lot of people have similar doubts, and to thank her for expressing those doubts and trying despite them, validating that she was trying despite her concerns—my hope was to encourage more people with similar concerns.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/e26/who_wants_to_start_an_important_startup/78ij This is another example of someone talking on this post I started with the goal of starting start-ups, about how most start ups fail. Also in this case, I expressed gratitude, and it gave the the chance to elaborate a response to concerns that many people have, without invalidating the concern.
Also, as noted in the comments on that second link, I had several people give me very harsh feedback while I was in the process of writing this post. As an example, a friend predicted:
“No startup cofounder at any point in the future will say that their ideas were partially inspired by this post, unless it’s an extremely distant relation. To a first approximation, nothing happens.”
Largely because of the training I’ve had in how to deal with negative feedback, I did not get (very ;) defensive, and I quizzed these people about what I could do that would give the post the best chance of working. I do think it is because of my doing this, and these people being kind enough to give me their honest feedback even though they were concerned about what my reactions might be, that this post has been as successful as it has been. Its early yet to see if start-ups succeed, but I know of several people taking initial steps, and I’m optimistic that these discussions that are happening will have positive impact on a lot of people.
I do:
Please critique
You had a good point in your suggestion so I changed my “100% good” statement.
Oops sorry.
You’re going against the grain—not a bad thing but it means you’re going to have to really lay out your reasons if you want to change the way the wind is blowing. Elaborate, please.
I invite brutal honesty on everything I wrote there.
I intentionally picked examples dated prior to your post. Usually I would not bother to justify myself like this but I’ve decided that I like you.
Of course there are times when I disagree, also, and will continue to disagree until somebody gets somewhere or the discussion is lost to the sands of time. But I will not continue disagreement I don’t see a way to make the disagreement constructive. If I don’t think that it’s likely for me to get through to a person, I will choose my battles with them.
Shannon, thank you. I see what you’re trying to do here. However, in this particular case, I don’t feel the criticism is getting anyone anywhere. Shminux is essentially jumping to conclusions. Hearing them out is not going to change the fact that Shminux is jumping to conclusions, and it won’t convince me of anything. I hold myself to higher standards than that—I won’t allow myself to jump to conclusions with new people, so I don’t do like Shminux does and I do not particularly want to learn this jumping to conclusions technique. In hindsight, I saw that it’s probably a common bias. If you hadn’t noticed, I changed my wording a long time ago. I tried to point out Shminux’s bias once. That didn’t work. I liked my attempt, so I saved it for later. If getting a person to be aware of their bias doesn’t work, I move on. I see policing Shminux’s biased perceptions as Shminux’s responsibility. I tried it once, which was nice of me. I shouldn’t have to do it for them.
If you think there’s something I could learn here other than “Shminux is biased, which is a sign that other people might have the same bias, so it’s best not to trigger that particular bias.” then you’re going to have to be really clear because it does not look to me like there is any further to learn from Shminux’s comment.