I don’t have any answer, but I have similar-seeming problems (or so I believe). One thing I would like to understand better is whether the problem of “attention span” is really an umbrella term for many different kinds of problems, and understand it in a Kaj Sotala-kind of framework of internal systems. For instance, one can have an attention span problem while reading, because of any of the following reasons (sorry for the long list; please let me know if I am spamming):
1(a) Reading involves effort, which an internal subsystem doesn’t want to expend.
1(b) Reading exposes one’s insecurities regarding one’s clarity of understanding, which some internal subsystem hates confronting.
2(a) Reading triggers various memories and reveries, which some internal subsystem wants to indulge.
2(b) Some narcissistic internal subsystem that wants to explain the newly gathered insight to others and gain brownie points, and starts designing explanation schemes.
3(a) Integrating what one reads into one’s existing knowledge-base requires effort, which an internal subsystem doesn’t want to expend.
3(b) Integrating what one reads into one’s existing knowledge-base requires effort, and an internal subsystem wants to spend extra time with that (i.e., craving a more thorough integration than “normal”) before proceeding to reading the next.
3(c) An internal subsystem that wants to develop more theories or get more insights on the basis of some newly gathered insight overwhelms the knowledge-acquisition subsystem.
Perhaps some of these can be separated into “low-serotonin” vs “dopamine-craving”?
This is exactly the kind of thinking I was hoping to encounter. Do you have any further reading or solution proposals for some of the problems listed here?
That makes sense, I’ve never thought about that much before. Lesswrong’s meditation section has three top articles on that, all by kaj sotala. Do you recommend any of those, or any other source or post on meditation and how to benefit from it fast?
Not super expert here, sorry. There’s also risk of typical mind fallacy when other optimizing. There are many different meditation techniques, and probably not all of them train what you want, and of those that do, probably some will work for you, and some won’t.
Maybe the blind leading the blind, but as a rationalist, I can tell the difference between having highly uncertain knowledge and literally zero knowledge about a topic, and my highly uncertain knowledge says maybe start here? (If someone more knowledgeable notices this thread, please chime in.)
I’ve found concentration practices are pretty good for this. The trick is to think of a concentrated mind like concentrated orange juice. Or, in the extreme, like a bose-einstein condensate.
The move is to choose a simple, consistent input to concentrate/condensate on. For example, you could use the sensations in your hands or feet, the auditory field, the feelings of pressure between your butt and the chair, the sensation of wearing pants. Don’t think about these sensations, but simply notice they exist and watch them propagate through the mind. When (not if) you find the mind searching for something more interesting to do [1], gently go back to your chosen input. Repeat for 60 seconds to start (use a timer), and work your way up to as long as you like.
This will take time! You’ll want to have daily-ish practice for best results. Remember that you are rewiring your brain here, so the effect will depend strongly on your age and starting neurology.
[^1] At first, the mind will seem like it is instantly bored with your stupid hands sitting on the desk and not doing anything can we please find anything else to watch? This is normal.
However, I think that’s the right way of thinking about the issue. Clean, simple, obvious-in-hindsight answers. Do you have any other advice that isn’t medication?
The only non-medicinal things that have worked for me are changes to my environment. So—blocking websites, buying a second bed to lie down on for work, that sort of thing. That and sleep+exercise+stop drinking so much, but you knew that much already.
Maybe you can be Chaotically Organised. If there are times when you have the drive to not just catch up, but get ahead, maybe you don’t need a good attention span all the time.
Focusmate is a website that matches you with a random person to co-work with for a set period of time. While it doesn’t literally increase my attention span, it does make it easier for me to commit to focusing on something during that period.
I don’t have any answer, but I have similar-seeming problems (or so I believe). One thing I would like to understand better is whether the problem of “attention span” is really an umbrella term for many different kinds of problems, and understand it in a Kaj Sotala-kind of framework of internal systems. For instance, one can have an attention span problem while reading, because of any of the following reasons (sorry for the long list; please let me know if I am spamming):
1(a) Reading involves effort, which an internal subsystem doesn’t want to expend.
1(b) Reading exposes one’s insecurities regarding one’s clarity of understanding, which some internal subsystem hates confronting.
2(a) Reading triggers various memories and reveries, which some internal subsystem wants to indulge.
2(b) Some narcissistic internal subsystem that wants to explain the newly gathered insight to others and gain brownie points, and starts designing explanation schemes.
3(a) Integrating what one reads into one’s existing knowledge-base requires effort, which an internal subsystem doesn’t want to expend.
3(b) Integrating what one reads into one’s existing knowledge-base requires effort, and an internal subsystem wants to spend extra time with that (i.e., craving a more thorough integration than “normal”) before proceeding to reading the next.
3(c) An internal subsystem that wants to develop more theories or get more insights on the basis of some newly gathered insight overwhelms the knowledge-acquisition subsystem.
Perhaps some of these can be separated into “low-serotonin” vs “dopamine-craving”?
This is exactly the kind of thinking I was hoping to encounter. Do you have any further reading or solution proposals for some of the problems listed here?
I am not a doctor. But if you have ADHD, there are medications that can help.
See: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/35eEHAXis3jMqETod/notes-on-attention#How_can_you_improve_your_attention_
NICE! Thanks, I wasn’t using LW at all during 2021 (my loss).
Practice paying attention, i.e., meditation. It’s a trainable skill.
That makes sense, I’ve never thought about that much before. Lesswrong’s meditation section has three top articles on that, all by kaj sotala. Do you recommend any of those, or any other source or post on meditation and how to benefit from it fast?
Not super expert here, sorry. There’s also risk of typical mind fallacy when other optimizing. There are many different meditation techniques, and probably not all of them train what you want, and of those that do, probably some will work for you, and some won’t.
Maybe the blind leading the blind, but as a rationalist, I can tell the difference between having highly uncertain knowledge and literally zero knowledge about a topic, and my highly uncertain knowledge says maybe start here? (If someone more knowledgeable notices this thread, please chime in.)
I’ve found concentration practices are pretty good for this. The trick is to think of a concentrated mind like concentrated orange juice. Or, in the extreme, like a bose-einstein condensate.
The move is to choose a simple, consistent input to concentrate/condensate on. For example, you could use the sensations in your hands or feet, the auditory field, the feelings of pressure between your butt and the chair, the sensation of wearing pants. Don’t think about these sensations, but simply notice they exist and watch them propagate through the mind. When (not if) you find the mind searching for something more interesting to do [1], gently go back to your chosen input. Repeat for 60 seconds to start (use a timer), and work your way up to as long as you like.
This will take time! You’ll want to have daily-ish practice for best results. Remember that you are rewiring your brain here, so the effect will depend strongly on your age and starting neurology.
[^1] At first, the mind will seem like it is instantly bored with your stupid hands sitting on the desk and not doing anything can we please find anything else to watch? This is normal.
Adderall.
I’m not really interested in that sort of thing.
However, I think that’s the right way of thinking about the issue. Clean, simple, obvious-in-hindsight answers. Do you have any other advice that isn’t medication?
The only non-medicinal things that have worked for me are changes to my environment. So—blocking websites, buying a second bed to lie down on for work, that sort of thing. That and sleep+exercise+stop drinking so much, but you knew that much already.
Awesome, thanks! That’s a pretty solid set, I’ll try all of those. Strong upvoted.
Maybe you can be Chaotically Organised. If there are times when you have the drive to not just catch up, but get ahead, maybe you don’t need a good attention span all the time.
Focusmate is a website that matches you with a random person to co-work with for a set period of time. While it doesn’t literally increase my attention span, it does make it easier for me to commit to focusing on something during that period.
Another way to engineer your environment is to use a scheduled website blocker.
You could try medications like Adderall or high does of caffeine + L-theanine.
What happens if you take L-theanine without caffeine? Stimulants weren’t helpful for me.
Just makes you calmer, subtlety. I take it before bed.