I notice all advice on finding a girlfriend glosses over the actual nuts-and-bolts of it. In Alicorn’s post here, the assumption seems to be that there’s an immense pool of women receptive enough to me (e.g. by common acquaintances, organizations, etc.) and I can just roll the dice until I find one, and all the supposed problems for rationalists worth getting advice on, arise … er, sometime later.
Where am I supposed to find this pool of bachelorettes? And if it’s common interest organizations, which should it be, since we’ve ruled out those related to rationality? And isn’t it strongly advised not to show romantic interest soon upon joining such an organization? In which case, how does your advice differ from “Join a random group … and wait … and wait … and wait”?
FWIW I recently joined a group (actually a subgroup of a larger group which is not held in high regard here) and did click with one of the women there, and asked her out, but we only went out for a few days before she lost interest. And then I found out there’s a taboo against dating within the subgroup (though I don’t think that had anything to do with her calling it off), which puts me right back to square one in terms of being expected to start relationships with near-complete strangers.
With apologies, it gets a bit annoying constantly getting dating advice that assumes away the most critical problems, and I can’t be the only one in this position.
I imagine having those problems would be trouble, and I’m sorry. In fairness though, your problems don’t sound like they stem from your being a rationalist. I guess it is too bad one of your interests is something that doesn’t lead to meeting a lot of women… but straight men interested in sports, cars, bbq etc. all have that problem. So there are probably better forums to ask these questions. The advice thats being given here is advice for rationalists qua rationalists. If your problem is just meeting women google it, get on match.com, go to a bar, whatever. If your problem is that the women you do date lose interest in you after a few days– how do you know it isn’t because of one of the problems alicorn suggested? I’m sure there are answers out there, you can’t fault a rationalist community for not being a relationship/pick up community.
If you do not know any women, something is wrong. It either means that (1) you don’t know anyone at all, in which case you should take care of that before “find a girlfriend” reaches the top of your list of priorities, or it means that (2) none of the men you know have introduced you to any of the women they know, which probably means something needs to be addressed on your end too, or it means that (3) the men you know themselves do not know any women, in which case something is wrong with them and you need to look into your choice of friends and associates. We comprise more than half of the population. We are not hard to find. Some of us are probably related to you.
If you know some women, but all the women you know are all taken or for some reason unacceptable, the odds are good that they know women who are neither taken nor unacceptable. Behave in a decent manner to these women and they are likely to introduce you to these friends of theirs. If you can sincerely do so, it may help alert your acquaintances that you are looking if you express a vague interest in having kids someday, or you could express general opinions about long term relationships/weddings/romantic customs in your local culture/what you look for in a woman/child-rearing strategies. Tick off enough boxes on a friend of a friend’s checklist and, assuming the intermediate friend is well-informed and cooperative, he or she may provide an introduction. If you’re antisocial and have no friends, relatives are an alternative route.
This isn’t quite Silas’ complaint. Clearly, he does know some women. What he is looking for is women who are receptive to his attempts to date them. This means he needs to know them in a context where he can actually make advances, and he needs to know how to actually make advances (which are appropriate to that context). His other complaint was that he was getting a date, but then it fizzled because she lost interest.
I won’t speak of Silas’ specific situation, but I will emphasize that there are many men who are decent guys from the standpoint of society, and who don’t have anything major wrong with them psychologically, physically or financially, but who don’t have significant options with women. This isn’t because they don’t know women, but because the women they know aren’t available to them because the women don’t find them attractive enough (since women are more selective, the average women is going after men with above average attractiveness, not after her average male friends), and/or because they are insufficiently knowledgeable of all the societal rituals around dating. Those rituals place a higher burden on the male for initiating things, and men don’t have that stuff encoded in their DNA. It’s something that the cooler kids learned in adolescence, and the less cool ones didn’t.
The result is that by high school, it’s common for males with certain personality traits such as introversion and systemizing (i.e. personality traits typical of males who identify as rationalists) to be so far behind socially that their ability to get something going romantic with the women around them is limited, even to the extent of being practically locked out. Women with similar personality traits will also experience difficulties, but not to the same magnitude since they aren’t typically expected to be the initiators, and because personality traits like confidence (that can easily be damaged during adolescence) aren’t so important for their attractiveness. This is not to say that women don’t experience challenges and difficulties in relationships; they do, but their primary challenges occur at different points (e.g. once some sort of dating has actually started, not so much difficulty getting any kind of date) and are a totally different subjects (e.g. being seen only sexually).
It is possible for a man to be surrounded by women, yet be walled off from them. As someone who experienced this years ago, I can say that it was no fun. And meeting friends of friends isn’t any use if you can’t capitalize on it, not to mention that it’s a slow and unreliable way of meeting people. And even if you can get a date, there are a million more ways for the male to bungle than for the female to bungle it (again, women are more selective, and male behavior is a larger factor in female attraction than female behavior is in male attraction… just think about the ways women use words like “weird” or “creepy” in describing potential suitors), which enforces a steep learning curve that is difficult to climb when you don’t know what you are doing.
You might say that there is a problem these guys have, which “needs to be addressed on their end,” and you would be absolutely right. But that is exactly Silas’ complaint. What is the nuts and bolts of what these men need to address such that they can successfully date the women all around them, and who is going to show them how to do it? Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost? Society isn’t.
Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost? Society isn’t.
Society used to teach some of this explicitly in the form of cotillion classes. One modern analogue for adults is PUA workshops. I took The Art of Attraction class from Pickup101 a few years ago and found it extremely worthwhile. My favorite part of the class was learning how to improve my body language in various ways. Confidence is a lot about physical behaviour—how to stand, how to walk, how to look at people… The most interesting and persistently useful part was learning how to touch someone one doesn’t know well and have this come across as friendly rather than creepy or awkward. Some people are naturally physically demonstrative—they find it easy to give a reassuring pat on the shoulder or the wrist or the back, or a hug. Most women have this ability; many men don’t. But being able to touch people in an appropriately friendly and comforting way is a physical skill which can be acquired with training and practice. Now that I have had this training, I even find it easier to touch or hug my own parents than before I took the class.
Another option is dance classes—you can learn Salsa at any age. Anything that gives you lots of practice comfortably standing and moving in close physical proximity to members of the opposite gender can’t help but help.
I feel the need to say that this is a superb comment—perhaps the best I have seen on this topic.
I particularly appreciated the following passages:
Those rituals place a higher burden on the male for initiating things, and men don’t have that stuff encoded in their DNA. It’s something that the cooler kids learned in adolescence, and the less cool ones didn’t.
(...)
there are a million more ways for the male to bungle than for the female to bungle it (again, women are more selective, and male behavior is a larger factor in female attraction than female behavior is in male attraction… just think about the ways women use words like “weird” or “creepy” in describing potential suitors),
(...)
Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost? Society isn’t.
I would just add that this is one of those subjects on which people are particularly prone to other-optimizing.
(since women are more selective, the average women is going after men with above average attractiveness, not after her average male friends),
You sort of touch on this later, but I think it’s important to point out that the word “attractiveness” does not mean the same thing to men and women, which means that a lot of people reading the above are going to think you’re talking about appearance. I.e., I just want to highlight what you said later:
male behavior is a larger factor in female attraction than female behavior is in male attraction
...and add that it’s also a larger factor in female attraction than physical appearance is, once you control for factors that a man can control about his appearance (i.e. grooming and other social signals of appearance) which can thus be reduced to “behavior”, anyway. It’s just behavior that’s done before the meeting occurs, rather than after.
“The correlation between liking of the date and evaluation of the date’s physical attractiveness is .78 for male subjects and .69 for female subjects. . . Sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
Also interesting:
“The correlation between how much the man says he likes his partner and how much she likes him is virtually zero: r = .03.”
“Male’s MSAT scores correlate .04 with both the woman’s liking for him and her desire to date him.” (For females the equivalent figure was around -.06.)
I trust this data more than folk psychology or self-reports, but I would be interested if anyone knows of any subsequent studies confirming or disconfirming these types of figures, or assessing its generalizability from 18 year olds on blind dates.
“The correlation between liking of the date and evaluation of the date’s physical attractiveness is .78 for male subjects and .69 for female subjects. . . Sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
You left out a really important factor, mentioned in the paragraph before this. These were the participants’ ratings of their partners’ physical attractiveness, and were not taken independently. The correlations were only half as good with an independent rating of physical attractiveness, made by four raters who were not going to be dating any of the subjects, and didn’t interact with them for more than a few seconds.
In other words, the data of the study actually support a hypothesis that people find people they like more physically attractive, rather than the other way around… and it supports that hypothesis for both men and women, though more so for women than for men.
The correlations with independent ratings of attractiveness were still .44 and .39. Compared to .04 and -.06 for intelligence, that still supports the conclusion that “sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
They also used various personality measures assessing such things as social skills, maturity, masculinity/femininity, introversion/extroversion and self-acceptance. They found predominantly negative correlations (from -.18 to -.08) and only two comparatively small positive correlations .14 and .03.
The correlations with independent ratings of attractiveness were still .44 and .39. Compared to .04 and -.06 for intelligence, that still supports the conclusion that “sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
Speaking from a hypothetical PUA’s point of view, there are still some uncontrolled-for factors:
Degree of a male’s control over his rating of physical attractiveness (via choice of clothes, grooming, posture, voice tone, etc.)
Male’s ability to display desirable characteristics through attitude, touch, story, listening, and other ways of creating mood, chemistry, or attraction.
Degree of interest shown in a male by other females (note that other studies have found that women are much more likely to perceive men to be attractive if it appears that other women are attracted to them)
These are just a few of the qualities that PUAs use to influence attraction, none of which were measured or controlled for by the study.
So, your summary is an overstatement: at .69 individual correlation, this means that even by a woman’s own judgment of physical attractiveness is not an absolute factor. You can still come out ahead (or screw it up) by what else you have/do.
What’s more, at .39 independent rating correlation, this means that people differ in attractiveness ratings for the same person. Whether people in general find you attractive matters considerably less than what the individual you’re after thinks.
Last, but not least, IIUC not a single PUA theory of attraction is even tested by this research, let alone debunked. So even if you’re ugly, there’s still hope for you. ;-)
What is the nuts and bolts of what these men need to address such that they can successfully date the women all around them, and who is going to show them how to do it? Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost?
Nobody. Their problem, they fix it. If they can’t, well, not all problems have solutions, and if you’re screwed enough, you’re screwed.
Ok, things aren’t quite as harsh as that, there’s the whole PUA thing (I have no experience of how effective it is), and various insights to be had from evolutionary psychology. Information is out there. (Can anyone suggest any other worthwhile—by rationalist standards—sources on the subject?) But no advice will magically solve the problem. Unlike giving someone a Google Maps pointer to a destination, the individual still has to apply himself with no certainty of success.
“You have before you the disassembled parts of a high-powered hunting rifle, and the instructions written in Swahili. In five minutes an angry Bengal tiger will walk into the room.”—Eugene Miya
I hate to make this recommendation (especially 2 years late), but figuring out how much alcohol you need to turn from an underconfident introvert to a comfortable socialite (without tipping too far in that direction) has helped me.
Introversion and confidence are completely unrelated. You probably weren’t implying that, but for anyone who comes across this in the future: introversion is not about confidence, shyness, self-esteem, anxiety or anything of that sort. The sheer amount of people who fail to make this distinction is one of the most irritating things I have come across.
Hmm. Yeah, I agree with you. But booze loosens something up for me. It turns something in my social brain on high. This is not the same thing as confidence, so my wording was bad.
Again, you seem to assume away the problem. Does no one ever leave home for college or move to a different city in your world? And whenever you do find something that could move me into the situation that you see as normal, you assume away its problems as well: what’s the standard method for addressing the (1), (2), and (3) you listed? You act like it’s an easy step to just casually change my “choice of friends and associates”.
In any case, like others mentioned, you misunderstand the situation. At my workplace, I do know women (not single) who could introduce me to women they know. As a matter of fact, they unsolicitedly remark about how “women must be all over you!” and “some lady’s going to snatch you right up before you know it” (note the similarity of their assumptions to yours). But then they inevitably don’t know anyone’s they’d introduce me to.
We comprise more than half of the population. We are not hard to find.
Yes, and this was the point. Of course I can “find” women, but that doesn’t mean I could follow your advice with those women. I could go to the supermarket, the mall, bars, etc. and see lots of women. Are these the ones you’re suggesting I approach?
Some of us are probably related to you.
I hope I don’t need to explain why these women are off the list… j/k But anyway, relatives don’t help if they all live far away. You were aware of that possibility, right?
In summary: Your advice is predicated on the recipient having a kind of social network that would have obviated the problem to begin with, and you don’t know how a male should go about establishing such a network except based on other assumptions that aren’t as likely as you think. Can you see why that might not be helpful?
And again, before you say how I must be soooo much of an outlier that I can’t possibly be a representative case, keep in mind, I did get a date with a woman in a group that I joined, so really, I’m apparently not that much of a freak.
Does no one ever leave home for college or move to a different city in your world?
People move. I moved to go to grad school recently, and have made the following local friends:
A woman who complimented me on my jacket at the bus stop; conversation went from there
Her (male) roommate
My roommate’s brother (I’m not counting my roommate because we were already friends when we moved in together)
Two classmates
The boyfriend and husband, respectively, of the classmates
It so happens that I could not or would not date any of these people because of various obstacles, but they all have other friends. Odds are good that if I were inclined to spend more time on expanding my social network, those individuals could introduce me to twenty or thirty other people; in my experience, people like their friends to know each other. And so on and so forth. I hasten to add that while I’m generally friendly, I’m kind of a hermit. I haven’t made any of my friends via the supermarket, mall, or bar. They’re pretty much all people I’ve been thrown together with or been introduced to by people I already knew.
Another example: I spent last summer in Salt Lake City living with my best friend, who I met on the Internet, as an alternative to living with my parents. Over the course of that summer, I met:
My friend’s other best friend from work
My friend’s boyfriend
My friend’s boyfriend’s brother, his wife, and their two children
My friend’s boyfriend’s sister, her husband, and their three children
My friend’s D&D group
My friend’s father and one of her brothers
My friend’s friend from high school and his wife
My friend’s lunch gathering group (5 other people)
People my friend knew from volunteering at a convention
Another Internet friend who lived nearby and her husband
The other Internet friend’s sister and three of her other friends
I also held down a job and became acquainted with, easily, fifteen people at work. One of them invited me to her house along with a couple of other co-workers for scones and Disney movies, and I met her family.
I hope these examples serve to illustrate what I mean.
s a matter of fact, they unsolicitedly remark about how “women must be all over you!” and “some lady’s going to snatch you right up before you know it” (note the similarity of their assumptions to yours). But then they inevitably don’t know anyone’s they’d introduce me to.
This is something people say to be nice. It does not typically mean what it denotes. If they have not invited you to any social functions where you could meet any of their friends, I doubt they like you very much. If you’d like to add a less polite data point, I’d neither date you nor introduce you to my single friends based on what little I know of you.
relatives don’t help if they all live far away
This is no longer the case with the Internet. I have never been to Australia in my life, but if I went there and landed in the right city, I know a guy who’d let me crash on his couch. You know someone who knows someone who knows someone who lives within acceptable travel distance of you. And that someone, even if they aren’t someone you’d date, knows someone who knows someone you’d date.
And again, before you say how I must be soooo much of an outlier that I can’t possibly be a representative case, keep in mind, I did get a date with a woman in a group that I joined, so really, I’m apparently not that much of a freak.
Being a freak is different from not having enough of a social network to find new people regularly.
the men you know themselves do not know any women, in which case something is wrong with them and you need to look into your choice of friends and associates
Nice casual, sweeping judgment there. Makes me wonder what the net effect of this attitude being widespread among females would be.
Makes me wonder what the net effect of this attitude being widespread among females would be.
You don’t have to wonder. The net effect would be the propagation of the genes that led to the formation of this attitude. ;-)
In fact, you have your wondering backwards. Any time you find human behavior to be inexplicable, it would behoove you to work backward to any likely evolutionary cause. Not so that you can prove women (or people in general) are broken and bizarre, but so you can understand why they might feel that way, and accept their concerns and feelings as valid, within their own sphere of reference.
In this particular case, for example, consider what a guy being “creepy” (i.e., lacking social ties) would mean in our ancestral environment.
Indeed, but I wasn’t wondering about the attitude’s origin, nor did I say I find it inexplicable.
Not so that you can prove women (or people in general) are broken and bizarre, but so you can understand why they might feel that way, and accept their concerns and feelings as valid, within their own sphere of reference.
No thanks. There’s an evolutionary cause to the male tendency toward violent behavior, and I can empathize with what it feels like to want to hurt someone, but that doesn’t mean I accept it as “valid”. If I encounter someone whose “sphere of reference” involves public validation of macho violence, I am doing everyone a disservice by pretending it’s okay. Likewise for blind prejudice.
So, if you prefer women with certain physical qualities, is that a blind prejudice, too?
If a woman prefers chocolate ice cream, does that mean she’s blindly prejudiced against vanilla?
If a company says they prefer job applicants to have references, is that blind prejudice also?
I think you are confused, especially if you’re connecting this to violence. To women in general (though not at all always for any particular woman) a man’s social connections are his references… and for many, it’s also his flavor.
Granted, Alicorn’s way of expressing this fact was not especially PC from a male perspective. To a guy, caring about who you know can sound “elitist”, in precisely the same way that guys’ concerns about various female characteristics can sound “shallow” and un-PC to women.
However, if you understand and correctly translate this female preference to whatever preferences you have for your partners (that women in their turn don’t necessarily understand or appreciate), then it would be easy to accept/forgive Alicorn’s way of putting it.
To a guy, caring about who you know can sound “elitist”, in precisely the same way that guys’ concerns about various female characteristics can sound “shallow” and un-PC to women.
Thanks for draping me with stereotypes and assuming the worst, but that wasn’t my objection.
Meta-comment unrelated to the substance of this thread: I want to apologize for the above response. I do think your analysis of my perspective is incorrect, but I realized that it’s stupidly counterproductive to actively discourage random strangers from taking stabs at my underlying psychology or motivation. I’m usually annoyed by such speculation (not just when it’s directed at me) because of its low average accuracy and distracting nature, but the expected utility of just one penetrating insight would easily outweigh the “cost” of ignoring or tersely refuting the inaccurate ones. It’s my choice whether or not to “take it personally”.
If a company says they prefer job applicants to have references, is that blind prejudice also?
This analogy is based on a reinterpretation of the original statement . Consider instead the trivially false statement: “if you don’t have references, you will be a lousy employee”.
I think you are confused, especially if you’re connecting this to violence.
Which “this”? Your statement seemed to imply that I should “accept as valid” (which I assume means something along the lines of “don’t publicly object to”) a sentiment or preference with an understandable evolutionary origin. Why not a preference for violence?
Granted, Alicorn’s way of expressing this fact was not especially PC from a male perspective.
According to you, her way of expressing this fact was to express a different fact.
To a guy, caring about who you know can sound “elitist”, in precisely the same way that guys’ concerns about various female characteristics can sound “shallow” and un-PC to women.
Thanks for draping me with stereotypes and assuming the worst, but that wasn’t my objection. I was objecting to the elevation of a mere social intuition or preference to the status of a logical truth (note the if-then, case-by-base logical structure of the original context). If Alicorn had said “I think it’s creepy when a guy doesn’t know any women”, I would not have replied.
If Alicorn had said “I think it’s creepy when a guy doesn’t know any women”, I would not have replied.
Understood, and fair enough. However, it would’ve been much more helpful if you’d just said that to start with, rather than answering her with a sweeping dismissal.
I personally don’t see what she said as that big a deal; I took the “something wrong” part as meaning “you have characteristics women in general will find undesirable” or “you lack characteristics that women in general will require”—and I see that as a true statement.
If you take this as meaning there is something morally or ethically wrong with you in some absolute sense -- as opposed to merely “wrong” for the result you desire—then I could see how you might consider it prejudice.
In my case, it’s easy to see Alicorn as speaking through the lens of a worldview in which it’s simply common sense that of course you would know other people, because otherwise you’d have to be some sort of creep, or at least have a terrible life that’s in urgent need of repair. And within the sphere of women’s social lives (in general), such an assessment is perfectly logical and sensible.
Your statement seemed to imply that I should “accept as valid” (which I assume means something along the lines of “don’t publicly object to”)
I mean, “understand why a human being might feel that way and separate your opinion of the behavior from your judgment of the person”—to disagree without being disagreeable, in other words.
Understood, and fair enough. However, it would’ve been much more helpful if you’d just said that to start with, rather than answering her with a sweeping dismissal.
I think it’s more helpful to sweepingly dismiss sweeping, incorrect generalizations of people that others may take to heart.
I took the “something wrong” part as meaning “you have characteristics women in general will find undesirable” or “you lack characteristics that women in general will require”—and I see that as a true statement.
I don’t, except in the tautological sense (“there’s something wrong with men who don’t know any women, and that something is women find them undesirable, because they don’t know any women”).
If you take this as meaning there is something morally or ethically wrong with you in some absolute sense—as opposed to merely “wrong” for the result you desire—then I could see how you might consider it prejudice.
Ah, I see. You’re talking about “wrong” in the sense that it’s wrong to have gay friends, if you want to meet Christians.
Out of curiosity, what would you be inclined to say about a random woman who simply did not know any men and who socialized exclusively with women, none of whom knew any men either? Assume this scenario is in a country not dominated by strict Islam or similar social structures.
Out of curiosity, what would you be inclined to say about a random woman who simply did not know any men and who socialized exclusively with women, none of whom knew any men either?
The mind boggles at such a concept. However, you probably mean a woman who did not know any men she considered potential partners, and who socialized with women, none of whom knew any men they considered introducing as potential partners… in which case, that sounds like a lot of women. ;-)
So, I’m not entirely sure where you meant to draw the line, there. But unless you were trying to imply that she’s a nun or a lesbian, though, you need to understand that men (in general, though not always in every specific case) simply wouldn’t care.
Likely male responses to this condition in reality would be things like, “Cool, a virgin”, or “Great, she won’t have anybody to compare me to”, or “wow, so many women not knowing guys… think of the opportunities for me!”
In fact, my first joking response that I almost typed at the beginning of this comment was that I’d say, “Welcome to Fantasy Island!”—because that’s more or less the evolutionary-instinctual male response to the idea of “lots of women without any men around”, i.e. “awesome”.
IOW, the female preference for men to have social connections just doesn’t translate in reverse. Men have different evolutionary drives in this respect, which is why guys who think just enough about this stuff to notice it (but not enough to properly translate/balance) tend to end up with all sorts of grudges against women’s preferences as being “irrational” and “unfair” (i.e. not-the-same-as-men’s).
This wasn’t addressed to me, but I have to say I don’t quite agree with the responses.
Ignoring its trivial impossibility, I’d believe such a woman was (at least in a romantic sense, and probably in a non-romantic one) very naive and very socially awkward, or that she was a lesbian. As I understand it, it’s fairly hard to be a woman without encountering at least a few men, so if a woman totally lacks any male friends in her entire social network, that would signal serious, debilitating shyness, a lack of social skills, or a lack of interest in men. Of course I’d change this belief in the face of any contradictory evidence, but absent further evidence, that’s what I’d infer.
I notice all advice on finding a girlfriend glosses over the actual nuts-and-bolts of it. In Alicorn’s post here, the assumption seems to be that there’s an immense pool of women receptive enough to me (e.g. by common acquaintances, organizations, etc.) and I can just roll the dice until I find one, and all the supposed problems for rationalists worth getting advice on, arise … er, sometime later.
Where am I supposed to find this pool of bachelorettes? And if it’s common interest organizations, which should it be, since we’ve ruled out those related to rationality? And isn’t it strongly advised not to show romantic interest soon upon joining such an organization? In which case, how does your advice differ from “Join a random group … and wait … and wait … and wait”?
FWIW I recently joined a group (actually a subgroup of a larger group which is not held in high regard here) and did click with one of the women there, and asked her out, but we only went out for a few days before she lost interest. And then I found out there’s a taboo against dating within the subgroup (though I don’t think that had anything to do with her calling it off), which puts me right back to square one in terms of being expected to start relationships with near-complete strangers.
With apologies, it gets a bit annoying constantly getting dating advice that assumes away the most critical problems, and I can’t be the only one in this position.
I imagine having those problems would be trouble, and I’m sorry. In fairness though, your problems don’t sound like they stem from your being a rationalist. I guess it is too bad one of your interests is something that doesn’t lead to meeting a lot of women… but straight men interested in sports, cars, bbq etc. all have that problem. So there are probably better forums to ask these questions. The advice thats being given here is advice for rationalists qua rationalists. If your problem is just meeting women google it, get on match.com, go to a bar, whatever. If your problem is that the women you do date lose interest in you after a few days– how do you know it isn’t because of one of the problems alicorn suggested? I’m sure there are answers out there, you can’t fault a rationalist community for not being a relationship/pick up community.
If you do not know any women, something is wrong. It either means that (1) you don’t know anyone at all, in which case you should take care of that before “find a girlfriend” reaches the top of your list of priorities, or it means that (2) none of the men you know have introduced you to any of the women they know, which probably means something needs to be addressed on your end too, or it means that (3) the men you know themselves do not know any women, in which case something is wrong with them and you need to look into your choice of friends and associates. We comprise more than half of the population. We are not hard to find. Some of us are probably related to you.
If you know some women, but all the women you know are all taken or for some reason unacceptable, the odds are good that they know women who are neither taken nor unacceptable. Behave in a decent manner to these women and they are likely to introduce you to these friends of theirs. If you can sincerely do so, it may help alert your acquaintances that you are looking if you express a vague interest in having kids someday, or you could express general opinions about long term relationships/weddings/romantic customs in your local culture/what you look for in a woman/child-rearing strategies. Tick off enough boxes on a friend of a friend’s checklist and, assuming the intermediate friend is well-informed and cooperative, he or she may provide an introduction. If you’re antisocial and have no friends, relatives are an alternative route.
This isn’t quite Silas’ complaint. Clearly, he does know some women. What he is looking for is women who are receptive to his attempts to date them. This means he needs to know them in a context where he can actually make advances, and he needs to know how to actually make advances (which are appropriate to that context). His other complaint was that he was getting a date, but then it fizzled because she lost interest.
I won’t speak of Silas’ specific situation, but I will emphasize that there are many men who are decent guys from the standpoint of society, and who don’t have anything major wrong with them psychologically, physically or financially, but who don’t have significant options with women. This isn’t because they don’t know women, but because the women they know aren’t available to them because the women don’t find them attractive enough (since women are more selective, the average women is going after men with above average attractiveness, not after her average male friends), and/or because they are insufficiently knowledgeable of all the societal rituals around dating. Those rituals place a higher burden on the male for initiating things, and men don’t have that stuff encoded in their DNA. It’s something that the cooler kids learned in adolescence, and the less cool ones didn’t.
The result is that by high school, it’s common for males with certain personality traits such as introversion and systemizing (i.e. personality traits typical of males who identify as rationalists) to be so far behind socially that their ability to get something going romantic with the women around them is limited, even to the extent of being practically locked out. Women with similar personality traits will also experience difficulties, but not to the same magnitude since they aren’t typically expected to be the initiators, and because personality traits like confidence (that can easily be damaged during adolescence) aren’t so important for their attractiveness. This is not to say that women don’t experience challenges and difficulties in relationships; they do, but their primary challenges occur at different points (e.g. once some sort of dating has actually started, not so much difficulty getting any kind of date) and are a totally different subjects (e.g. being seen only sexually).
It is possible for a man to be surrounded by women, yet be walled off from them. As someone who experienced this years ago, I can say that it was no fun. And meeting friends of friends isn’t any use if you can’t capitalize on it, not to mention that it’s a slow and unreliable way of meeting people. And even if you can get a date, there are a million more ways for the male to bungle than for the female to bungle it (again, women are more selective, and male behavior is a larger factor in female attraction than female behavior is in male attraction… just think about the ways women use words like “weird” or “creepy” in describing potential suitors), which enforces a steep learning curve that is difficult to climb when you don’t know what you are doing.
You might say that there is a problem these guys have, which “needs to be addressed on their end,” and you would be absolutely right. But that is exactly Silas’ complaint. What is the nuts and bolts of what these men need to address such that they can successfully date the women all around them, and who is going to show them how to do it? Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost? Society isn’t.
Society used to teach some of this explicitly in the form of cotillion classes. One modern analogue for adults is PUA workshops. I took The Art of Attraction class from Pickup101 a few years ago and found it extremely worthwhile. My favorite part of the class was learning how to improve my body language in various ways. Confidence is a lot about physical behaviour—how to stand, how to walk, how to look at people… The most interesting and persistently useful part was learning how to touch someone one doesn’t know well and have this come across as friendly rather than creepy or awkward. Some people are naturally physically demonstrative—they find it easy to give a reassuring pat on the shoulder or the wrist or the back, or a hug. Most women have this ability; many men don’t. But being able to touch people in an appropriately friendly and comforting way is a physical skill which can be acquired with training and practice. Now that I have had this training, I even find it easier to touch or hug my own parents than before I took the class.
Another option is dance classes—you can learn Salsa at any age. Anything that gives you lots of practice comfortably standing and moving in close physical proximity to members of the opposite gender can’t help but help.
I feel the need to say that this is a superb comment—perhaps the best I have seen on this topic.
I particularly appreciated the following passages:
(...)
(...)
I would just add that this is one of those subjects on which people are particularly prone to other-optimizing.
You sort of touch on this later, but I think it’s important to point out that the word “attractiveness” does not mean the same thing to men and women, which means that a lot of people reading the above are going to think you’re talking about appearance. I.e., I just want to highlight what you said later:
...and add that it’s also a larger factor in female attraction than physical appearance is, once you control for factors that a man can control about his appearance (i.e. grooming and other social signals of appearance) which can thus be reduced to “behavior”, anyway. It’s just behavior that’s done before the meeting occurs, rather than after.
“The correlation between liking of the date and evaluation of the date’s physical attractiveness is .78 for male subjects and .69 for female subjects. . . Sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
Also interesting: “The correlation between how much the man says he likes his partner and how much she likes him is virtually zero: r = .03.”
“Male’s MSAT scores correlate .04 with both the woman’s liking for him and her desire to date him.” (For females the equivalent figure was around -.06.)
“Importance of Physical Attractiveness in Dating Behavior”, Elaine Walster, et al., p. 514-515 http://www2.hawaii.edu/~elaineh/13.pdf
I trust this data more than folk psychology or self-reports, but I would be interested if anyone knows of any subsequent studies confirming or disconfirming these types of figures, or assessing its generalizability from 18 year olds on blind dates.
You left out a really important factor, mentioned in the paragraph before this. These were the participants’ ratings of their partners’ physical attractiveness, and were not taken independently. The correlations were only half as good with an independent rating of physical attractiveness, made by four raters who were not going to be dating any of the subjects, and didn’t interact with them for more than a few seconds.
In other words, the data of the study actually support a hypothesis that people find people they like more physically attractive, rather than the other way around… and it supports that hypothesis for both men and women, though more so for women than for men.
The correlations with independent ratings of attractiveness were still .44 and .39. Compared to .04 and -.06 for intelligence, that still supports the conclusion that “sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
They also used various personality measures assessing such things as social skills, maturity, masculinity/femininity, introversion/extroversion and self-acceptance. They found predominantly negative correlations (from -.18 to -.08) and only two comparatively small positive correlations .14 and .03.
Speaking from a hypothetical PUA’s point of view, there are still some uncontrolled-for factors:
Degree of a male’s control over his rating of physical attractiveness (via choice of clothes, grooming, posture, voice tone, etc.)
Male’s ability to display desirable characteristics through attitude, touch, story, listening, and other ways of creating mood, chemistry, or attraction.
Degree of interest shown in a male by other females (note that other studies have found that women are much more likely to perceive men to be attractive if it appears that other women are attracted to them)
These are just a few of the qualities that PUAs use to influence attraction, none of which were measured or controlled for by the study.
So, your summary is an overstatement: at .69 individual correlation, this means that even by a woman’s own judgment of physical attractiveness is not an absolute factor. You can still come out ahead (or screw it up) by what else you have/do.
What’s more, at .39 independent rating correlation, this means that people differ in attractiveness ratings for the same person. Whether people in general find you attractive matters considerably less than what the individual you’re after thinks.
Last, but not least, IIUC not a single PUA theory of attraction is even tested by this research, let alone debunked. So even if you’re ugly, there’s still hope for you. ;-)
Thanks for clarifying what factors you think are relevant. I agree that those have not been tested.
Nobody. Their problem, they fix it. If they can’t, well, not all problems have solutions, and if you’re screwed enough, you’re screwed.
Ok, things aren’t quite as harsh as that, there’s the whole PUA thing (I have no experience of how effective it is), and various insights to be had from evolutionary psychology. Information is out there. (Can anyone suggest any other worthwhile—by rationalist standards—sources on the subject?) But no advice will magically solve the problem. Unlike giving someone a Google Maps pointer to a destination, the individual still has to apply himself with no certainty of success.
“You have before you the disassembled parts of a high-powered hunting rifle, and the instructions written in Swahili. In five minutes an angry Bengal tiger will walk into the room.”—Eugene Miya
I hate to make this recommendation (especially 2 years late), but figuring out how much alcohol you need to turn from an underconfident introvert to a comfortable socialite (without tipping too far in that direction) has helped me.
Introversion and confidence are completely unrelated. You probably weren’t implying that, but for anyone who comes across this in the future: introversion is not about confidence, shyness, self-esteem, anxiety or anything of that sort. The sheer amount of people who fail to make this distinction is one of the most irritating things I have come across.
Hmm. Yeah, I agree with you. But booze loosens something up for me. It turns something in my social brain on high. This is not the same thing as confidence, so my wording was bad.
Again, you seem to assume away the problem. Does no one ever leave home for college or move to a different city in your world? And whenever you do find something that could move me into the situation that you see as normal, you assume away its problems as well: what’s the standard method for addressing the (1), (2), and (3) you listed? You act like it’s an easy step to just casually change my “choice of friends and associates”.
In any case, like others mentioned, you misunderstand the situation. At my workplace, I do know women (not single) who could introduce me to women they know. As a matter of fact, they unsolicitedly remark about how “women must be all over you!” and “some lady’s going to snatch you right up before you know it” (note the similarity of their assumptions to yours). But then they inevitably don’t know anyone’s they’d introduce me to.
Yes, and this was the point. Of course I can “find” women, but that doesn’t mean I could follow your advice with those women. I could go to the supermarket, the mall, bars, etc. and see lots of women. Are these the ones you’re suggesting I approach?
I hope I don’t need to explain why these women are off the list… j/k But anyway, relatives don’t help if they all live far away. You were aware of that possibility, right?
In summary: Your advice is predicated on the recipient having a kind of social network that would have obviated the problem to begin with, and you don’t know how a male should go about establishing such a network except based on other assumptions that aren’t as likely as you think. Can you see why that might not be helpful?
And again, before you say how I must be soooo much of an outlier that I can’t possibly be a representative case, keep in mind, I did get a date with a woman in a group that I joined, so really, I’m apparently not that much of a freak.
People move. I moved to go to grad school recently, and have made the following local friends:
A woman who complimented me on my jacket at the bus stop; conversation went from there
Her (male) roommate
My roommate’s brother (I’m not counting my roommate because we were already friends when we moved in together)
Two classmates
The boyfriend and husband, respectively, of the classmates
It so happens that I could not or would not date any of these people because of various obstacles, but they all have other friends. Odds are good that if I were inclined to spend more time on expanding my social network, those individuals could introduce me to twenty or thirty other people; in my experience, people like their friends to know each other. And so on and so forth. I hasten to add that while I’m generally friendly, I’m kind of a hermit. I haven’t made any of my friends via the supermarket, mall, or bar. They’re pretty much all people I’ve been thrown together with or been introduced to by people I already knew.
Another example: I spent last summer in Salt Lake City living with my best friend, who I met on the Internet, as an alternative to living with my parents. Over the course of that summer, I met:
My friend’s other best friend from work
My friend’s boyfriend
My friend’s boyfriend’s brother, his wife, and their two children
My friend’s boyfriend’s sister, her husband, and their three children
My friend’s D&D group
My friend’s father and one of her brothers
My friend’s friend from high school and his wife
My friend’s lunch gathering group (5 other people)
People my friend knew from volunteering at a convention
Another Internet friend who lived nearby and her husband
The other Internet friend’s sister and three of her other friends
I also held down a job and became acquainted with, easily, fifteen people at work. One of them invited me to her house along with a couple of other co-workers for scones and Disney movies, and I met her family.
I hope these examples serve to illustrate what I mean.
This is something people say to be nice. It does not typically mean what it denotes. If they have not invited you to any social functions where you could meet any of their friends, I doubt they like you very much. If you’d like to add a less polite data point, I’d neither date you nor introduce you to my single friends based on what little I know of you.
This is no longer the case with the Internet. I have never been to Australia in my life, but if I went there and landed in the right city, I know a guy who’d let me crash on his couch. You know someone who knows someone who knows someone who lives within acceptable travel distance of you. And that someone, even if they aren’t someone you’d date, knows someone who knows someone you’d date.
Being a freak is different from not having enough of a social network to find new people regularly.
Nice casual, sweeping judgment there. Makes me wonder what the net effect of this attitude being widespread among females would be.
You don’t have to wonder. The net effect would be the propagation of the genes that led to the formation of this attitude. ;-)
In fact, you have your wondering backwards. Any time you find human behavior to be inexplicable, it would behoove you to work backward to any likely evolutionary cause. Not so that you can prove women (or people in general) are broken and bizarre, but so you can understand why they might feel that way, and accept their concerns and feelings as valid, within their own sphere of reference.
In this particular case, for example, consider what a guy being “creepy” (i.e., lacking social ties) would mean in our ancestral environment.
Indeed, but I wasn’t wondering about the attitude’s origin, nor did I say I find it inexplicable.
No thanks. There’s an evolutionary cause to the male tendency toward violent behavior, and I can empathize with what it feels like to want to hurt someone, but that doesn’t mean I accept it as “valid”. If I encounter someone whose “sphere of reference” involves public validation of macho violence, I am doing everyone a disservice by pretending it’s okay. Likewise for blind prejudice.
So, if you prefer women with certain physical qualities, is that a blind prejudice, too?
If a woman prefers chocolate ice cream, does that mean she’s blindly prejudiced against vanilla?
If a company says they prefer job applicants to have references, is that blind prejudice also?
I think you are confused, especially if you’re connecting this to violence. To women in general (though not at all always for any particular woman) a man’s social connections are his references… and for many, it’s also his flavor.
Granted, Alicorn’s way of expressing this fact was not especially PC from a male perspective. To a guy, caring about who you know can sound “elitist”, in precisely the same way that guys’ concerns about various female characteristics can sound “shallow” and un-PC to women.
However, if you understand and correctly translate this female preference to whatever preferences you have for your partners (that women in their turn don’t necessarily understand or appreciate), then it would be easy to accept/forgive Alicorn’s way of putting it.
Meta-comment unrelated to the substance of this thread: I want to apologize for the above response. I do think your analysis of my perspective is incorrect, but I realized that it’s stupidly counterproductive to actively discourage random strangers from taking stabs at my underlying psychology or motivation. I’m usually annoyed by such speculation (not just when it’s directed at me) because of its low average accuracy and distracting nature, but the expected utility of just one penetrating insight would easily outweigh the “cost” of ignoring or tersely refuting the inaccurate ones. It’s my choice whether or not to “take it personally”.
This analogy is based on a reinterpretation of the original statement . Consider instead the trivially false statement: “if you don’t have references, you will be a lousy employee”.
Which “this”? Your statement seemed to imply that I should “accept as valid” (which I assume means something along the lines of “don’t publicly object to”) a sentiment or preference with an understandable evolutionary origin. Why not a preference for violence?
According to you, her way of expressing this fact was to express a different fact.
Thanks for draping me with stereotypes and assuming the worst, but that wasn’t my objection. I was objecting to the elevation of a mere social intuition or preference to the status of a logical truth (note the if-then, case-by-base logical structure of the original context). If Alicorn had said “I think it’s creepy when a guy doesn’t know any women”, I would not have replied.
Understood, and fair enough. However, it would’ve been much more helpful if you’d just said that to start with, rather than answering her with a sweeping dismissal.
I personally don’t see what she said as that big a deal; I took the “something wrong” part as meaning “you have characteristics women in general will find undesirable” or “you lack characteristics that women in general will require”—and I see that as a true statement.
If you take this as meaning there is something morally or ethically wrong with you in some absolute sense -- as opposed to merely “wrong” for the result you desire—then I could see how you might consider it prejudice.
In my case, it’s easy to see Alicorn as speaking through the lens of a worldview in which it’s simply common sense that of course you would know other people, because otherwise you’d have to be some sort of creep, or at least have a terrible life that’s in urgent need of repair. And within the sphere of women’s social lives (in general), such an assessment is perfectly logical and sensible.
I mean, “understand why a human being might feel that way and separate your opinion of the behavior from your judgment of the person”—to disagree without being disagreeable, in other words.
I think it’s more helpful to sweepingly dismiss sweeping, incorrect generalizations of people that others may take to heart.
I don’t, except in the tautological sense (“there’s something wrong with men who don’t know any women, and that something is women find them undesirable, because they don’t know any women”).
Ah, I see. You’re talking about “wrong” in the sense that it’s wrong to have gay friends, if you want to meet Christians.
Out of curiosity, what would you be inclined to say about a random woman who simply did not know any men and who socialized exclusively with women, none of whom knew any men either? Assume this scenario is in a country not dominated by strict Islam or similar social structures.
The mind boggles at such a concept. However, you probably mean a woman who did not know any men she considered potential partners, and who socialized with women, none of whom knew any men they considered introducing as potential partners… in which case, that sounds like a lot of women. ;-)
So, I’m not entirely sure where you meant to draw the line, there. But unless you were trying to imply that she’s a nun or a lesbian, though, you need to understand that men (in general, though not always in every specific case) simply wouldn’t care.
Likely male responses to this condition in reality would be things like, “Cool, a virgin”, or “Great, she won’t have anybody to compare me to”, or “wow, so many women not knowing guys… think of the opportunities for me!”
In fact, my first joking response that I almost typed at the beginning of this comment was that I’d say, “Welcome to Fantasy Island!”—because that’s more or less the evolutionary-instinctual male response to the idea of “lots of women without any men around”, i.e. “awesome”.
IOW, the female preference for men to have social connections just doesn’t translate in reverse. Men have different evolutionary drives in this respect, which is why guys who think just enough about this stuff to notice it (but not enough to properly translate/balance) tend to end up with all sorts of grudges against women’s preferences as being “irrational” and “unfair” (i.e. not-the-same-as-men’s).
This wasn’t addressed to me, but I have to say I don’t quite agree with the responses.
Ignoring its trivial impossibility, I’d believe such a woman was (at least in a romantic sense, and probably in a non-romantic one) very naive and very socially awkward, or that she was a lesbian. As I understand it, it’s fairly hard to be a woman without encountering at least a few men, so if a woman totally lacks any male friends in her entire social network, that would signal serious, debilitating shyness, a lack of social skills, or a lack of interest in men. Of course I’d change this belief in the face of any contradictory evidence, but absent further evidence, that’s what I’d infer.
Given that I’m male, by definition I haven’t known any women in that situation, so I don’t have anything to say.