This isn’t quite Silas’ complaint. Clearly, he does know some women. What he is looking for is women who are receptive to his attempts to date them. This means he needs to know them in a context where he can actually make advances, and he needs to know how to actually make advances (which are appropriate to that context). His other complaint was that he was getting a date, but then it fizzled because she lost interest.
I won’t speak of Silas’ specific situation, but I will emphasize that there are many men who are decent guys from the standpoint of society, and who don’t have anything major wrong with them psychologically, physically or financially, but who don’t have significant options with women. This isn’t because they don’t know women, but because the women they know aren’t available to them because the women don’t find them attractive enough (since women are more selective, the average women is going after men with above average attractiveness, not after her average male friends), and/or because they are insufficiently knowledgeable of all the societal rituals around dating. Those rituals place a higher burden on the male for initiating things, and men don’t have that stuff encoded in their DNA. It’s something that the cooler kids learned in adolescence, and the less cool ones didn’t.
The result is that by high school, it’s common for males with certain personality traits such as introversion and systemizing (i.e. personality traits typical of males who identify as rationalists) to be so far behind socially that their ability to get something going romantic with the women around them is limited, even to the extent of being practically locked out. Women with similar personality traits will also experience difficulties, but not to the same magnitude since they aren’t typically expected to be the initiators, and because personality traits like confidence (that can easily be damaged during adolescence) aren’t so important for their attractiveness. This is not to say that women don’t experience challenges and difficulties in relationships; they do, but their primary challenges occur at different points (e.g. once some sort of dating has actually started, not so much difficulty getting any kind of date) and are a totally different subjects (e.g. being seen only sexually).
It is possible for a man to be surrounded by women, yet be walled off from them. As someone who experienced this years ago, I can say that it was no fun. And meeting friends of friends isn’t any use if you can’t capitalize on it, not to mention that it’s a slow and unreliable way of meeting people. And even if you can get a date, there are a million more ways for the male to bungle than for the female to bungle it (again, women are more selective, and male behavior is a larger factor in female attraction than female behavior is in male attraction… just think about the ways women use words like “weird” or “creepy” in describing potential suitors), which enforces a steep learning curve that is difficult to climb when you don’t know what you are doing.
You might say that there is a problem these guys have, which “needs to be addressed on their end,” and you would be absolutely right. But that is exactly Silas’ complaint. What is the nuts and bolts of what these men need to address such that they can successfully date the women all around them, and who is going to show them how to do it? Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost? Society isn’t.
Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost? Society isn’t.
Society used to teach some of this explicitly in the form of cotillion classes. One modern analogue for adults is PUA workshops. I took The Art of Attraction class from Pickup101 a few years ago and found it extremely worthwhile. My favorite part of the class was learning how to improve my body language in various ways. Confidence is a lot about physical behaviour—how to stand, how to walk, how to look at people… The most interesting and persistently useful part was learning how to touch someone one doesn’t know well and have this come across as friendly rather than creepy or awkward. Some people are naturally physically demonstrative—they find it easy to give a reassuring pat on the shoulder or the wrist or the back, or a hug. Most women have this ability; many men don’t. But being able to touch people in an appropriately friendly and comforting way is a physical skill which can be acquired with training and practice. Now that I have had this training, I even find it easier to touch or hug my own parents than before I took the class.
Another option is dance classes—you can learn Salsa at any age. Anything that gives you lots of practice comfortably standing and moving in close physical proximity to members of the opposite gender can’t help but help.
I feel the need to say that this is a superb comment—perhaps the best I have seen on this topic.
I particularly appreciated the following passages:
Those rituals place a higher burden on the male for initiating things, and men don’t have that stuff encoded in their DNA. It’s something that the cooler kids learned in adolescence, and the less cool ones didn’t.
(...)
there are a million more ways for the male to bungle than for the female to bungle it (again, women are more selective, and male behavior is a larger factor in female attraction than female behavior is in male attraction… just think about the ways women use words like “weird” or “creepy” in describing potential suitors),
(...)
Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost? Society isn’t.
I would just add that this is one of those subjects on which people are particularly prone to other-optimizing.
(since women are more selective, the average women is going after men with above average attractiveness, not after her average male friends),
You sort of touch on this later, but I think it’s important to point out that the word “attractiveness” does not mean the same thing to men and women, which means that a lot of people reading the above are going to think you’re talking about appearance. I.e., I just want to highlight what you said later:
male behavior is a larger factor in female attraction than female behavior is in male attraction
...and add that it’s also a larger factor in female attraction than physical appearance is, once you control for factors that a man can control about his appearance (i.e. grooming and other social signals of appearance) which can thus be reduced to “behavior”, anyway. It’s just behavior that’s done before the meeting occurs, rather than after.
“The correlation between liking of the date and evaluation of the date’s physical attractiveness is .78 for male subjects and .69 for female subjects. . . Sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
Also interesting:
“The correlation between how much the man says he likes his partner and how much she likes him is virtually zero: r = .03.”
“Male’s MSAT scores correlate .04 with both the woman’s liking for him and her desire to date him.” (For females the equivalent figure was around -.06.)
I trust this data more than folk psychology or self-reports, but I would be interested if anyone knows of any subsequent studies confirming or disconfirming these types of figures, or assessing its generalizability from 18 year olds on blind dates.
“The correlation between liking of the date and evaluation of the date’s physical attractiveness is .78 for male subjects and .69 for female subjects. . . Sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
You left out a really important factor, mentioned in the paragraph before this. These were the participants’ ratings of their partners’ physical attractiveness, and were not taken independently. The correlations were only half as good with an independent rating of physical attractiveness, made by four raters who were not going to be dating any of the subjects, and didn’t interact with them for more than a few seconds.
In other words, the data of the study actually support a hypothesis that people find people they like more physically attractive, rather than the other way around… and it supports that hypothesis for both men and women, though more so for women than for men.
The correlations with independent ratings of attractiveness were still .44 and .39. Compared to .04 and -.06 for intelligence, that still supports the conclusion that “sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
They also used various personality measures assessing such things as social skills, maturity, masculinity/femininity, introversion/extroversion and self-acceptance. They found predominantly negative correlations (from -.18 to -.08) and only two comparatively small positive correlations .14 and .03.
The correlations with independent ratings of attractiveness were still .44 and .39. Compared to .04 and -.06 for intelligence, that still supports the conclusion that “sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
Speaking from a hypothetical PUA’s point of view, there are still some uncontrolled-for factors:
Degree of a male’s control over his rating of physical attractiveness (via choice of clothes, grooming, posture, voice tone, etc.)
Male’s ability to display desirable characteristics through attitude, touch, story, listening, and other ways of creating mood, chemistry, or attraction.
Degree of interest shown in a male by other females (note that other studies have found that women are much more likely to perceive men to be attractive if it appears that other women are attracted to them)
These are just a few of the qualities that PUAs use to influence attraction, none of which were measured or controlled for by the study.
So, your summary is an overstatement: at .69 individual correlation, this means that even by a woman’s own judgment of physical attractiveness is not an absolute factor. You can still come out ahead (or screw it up) by what else you have/do.
What’s more, at .39 independent rating correlation, this means that people differ in attractiveness ratings for the same person. Whether people in general find you attractive matters considerably less than what the individual you’re after thinks.
Last, but not least, IIUC not a single PUA theory of attraction is even tested by this research, let alone debunked. So even if you’re ugly, there’s still hope for you. ;-)
What is the nuts and bolts of what these men need to address such that they can successfully date the women all around them, and who is going to show them how to do it? Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost?
Nobody. Their problem, they fix it. If they can’t, well, not all problems have solutions, and if you’re screwed enough, you’re screwed.
Ok, things aren’t quite as harsh as that, there’s the whole PUA thing (I have no experience of how effective it is), and various insights to be had from evolutionary psychology. Information is out there. (Can anyone suggest any other worthwhile—by rationalist standards—sources on the subject?) But no advice will magically solve the problem. Unlike giving someone a Google Maps pointer to a destination, the individual still has to apply himself with no certainty of success.
“You have before you the disassembled parts of a high-powered hunting rifle, and the instructions written in Swahili. In five minutes an angry Bengal tiger will walk into the room.”—Eugene Miya
I hate to make this recommendation (especially 2 years late), but figuring out how much alcohol you need to turn from an underconfident introvert to a comfortable socialite (without tipping too far in that direction) has helped me.
Introversion and confidence are completely unrelated. You probably weren’t implying that, but for anyone who comes across this in the future: introversion is not about confidence, shyness, self-esteem, anxiety or anything of that sort. The sheer amount of people who fail to make this distinction is one of the most irritating things I have come across.
Hmm. Yeah, I agree with you. But booze loosens something up for me. It turns something in my social brain on high. This is not the same thing as confidence, so my wording was bad.
This isn’t quite Silas’ complaint. Clearly, he does know some women. What he is looking for is women who are receptive to his attempts to date them. This means he needs to know them in a context where he can actually make advances, and he needs to know how to actually make advances (which are appropriate to that context). His other complaint was that he was getting a date, but then it fizzled because she lost interest.
I won’t speak of Silas’ specific situation, but I will emphasize that there are many men who are decent guys from the standpoint of society, and who don’t have anything major wrong with them psychologically, physically or financially, but who don’t have significant options with women. This isn’t because they don’t know women, but because the women they know aren’t available to them because the women don’t find them attractive enough (since women are more selective, the average women is going after men with above average attractiveness, not after her average male friends), and/or because they are insufficiently knowledgeable of all the societal rituals around dating. Those rituals place a higher burden on the male for initiating things, and men don’t have that stuff encoded in their DNA. It’s something that the cooler kids learned in adolescence, and the less cool ones didn’t.
The result is that by high school, it’s common for males with certain personality traits such as introversion and systemizing (i.e. personality traits typical of males who identify as rationalists) to be so far behind socially that their ability to get something going romantic with the women around them is limited, even to the extent of being practically locked out. Women with similar personality traits will also experience difficulties, but not to the same magnitude since they aren’t typically expected to be the initiators, and because personality traits like confidence (that can easily be damaged during adolescence) aren’t so important for their attractiveness. This is not to say that women don’t experience challenges and difficulties in relationships; they do, but their primary challenges occur at different points (e.g. once some sort of dating has actually started, not so much difficulty getting any kind of date) and are a totally different subjects (e.g. being seen only sexually).
It is possible for a man to be surrounded by women, yet be walled off from them. As someone who experienced this years ago, I can say that it was no fun. And meeting friends of friends isn’t any use if you can’t capitalize on it, not to mention that it’s a slow and unreliable way of meeting people. And even if you can get a date, there are a million more ways for the male to bungle than for the female to bungle it (again, women are more selective, and male behavior is a larger factor in female attraction than female behavior is in male attraction… just think about the ways women use words like “weird” or “creepy” in describing potential suitors), which enforces a steep learning curve that is difficult to climb when you don’t know what you are doing.
You might say that there is a problem these guys have, which “needs to be addressed on their end,” and you would be absolutely right. But that is exactly Silas’ complaint. What is the nuts and bolts of what these men need to address such that they can successfully date the women all around them, and who is going to show them how to do it? Who is going to teach them all the dating rituals that they missed during adolescence, and give them back the self-confidence that they lost? Society isn’t.
Society used to teach some of this explicitly in the form of cotillion classes. One modern analogue for adults is PUA workshops. I took The Art of Attraction class from Pickup101 a few years ago and found it extremely worthwhile. My favorite part of the class was learning how to improve my body language in various ways. Confidence is a lot about physical behaviour—how to stand, how to walk, how to look at people… The most interesting and persistently useful part was learning how to touch someone one doesn’t know well and have this come across as friendly rather than creepy or awkward. Some people are naturally physically demonstrative—they find it easy to give a reassuring pat on the shoulder or the wrist or the back, or a hug. Most women have this ability; many men don’t. But being able to touch people in an appropriately friendly and comforting way is a physical skill which can be acquired with training and practice. Now that I have had this training, I even find it easier to touch or hug my own parents than before I took the class.
Another option is dance classes—you can learn Salsa at any age. Anything that gives you lots of practice comfortably standing and moving in close physical proximity to members of the opposite gender can’t help but help.
I feel the need to say that this is a superb comment—perhaps the best I have seen on this topic.
I particularly appreciated the following passages:
(...)
(...)
I would just add that this is one of those subjects on which people are particularly prone to other-optimizing.
You sort of touch on this later, but I think it’s important to point out that the word “attractiveness” does not mean the same thing to men and women, which means that a lot of people reading the above are going to think you’re talking about appearance. I.e., I just want to highlight what you said later:
...and add that it’s also a larger factor in female attraction than physical appearance is, once you control for factors that a man can control about his appearance (i.e. grooming and other social signals of appearance) which can thus be reduced to “behavior”, anyway. It’s just behavior that’s done before the meeting occurs, rather than after.
“The correlation between liking of the date and evaluation of the date’s physical attractiveness is .78 for male subjects and .69 for female subjects. . . Sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
Also interesting: “The correlation between how much the man says he likes his partner and how much she likes him is virtually zero: r = .03.”
“Male’s MSAT scores correlate .04 with both the woman’s liking for him and her desire to date him.” (For females the equivalent figure was around -.06.)
“Importance of Physical Attractiveness in Dating Behavior”, Elaine Walster, et al., p. 514-515 http://www2.hawaii.edu/~elaineh/13.pdf
I trust this data more than folk psychology or self-reports, but I would be interested if anyone knows of any subsequent studies confirming or disconfirming these types of figures, or assessing its generalizability from 18 year olds on blind dates.
You left out a really important factor, mentioned in the paragraph before this. These were the participants’ ratings of their partners’ physical attractiveness, and were not taken independently. The correlations were only half as good with an independent rating of physical attractiveness, made by four raters who were not going to be dating any of the subjects, and didn’t interact with them for more than a few seconds.
In other words, the data of the study actually support a hypothesis that people find people they like more physically attractive, rather than the other way around… and it supports that hypothesis for both men and women, though more so for women than for men.
The correlations with independent ratings of attractiveness were still .44 and .39. Compared to .04 and -.06 for intelligence, that still supports the conclusion that “sheer physical attractiveness appears to be the overriding determinant of liking.”
They also used various personality measures assessing such things as social skills, maturity, masculinity/femininity, introversion/extroversion and self-acceptance. They found predominantly negative correlations (from -.18 to -.08) and only two comparatively small positive correlations .14 and .03.
Speaking from a hypothetical PUA’s point of view, there are still some uncontrolled-for factors:
Degree of a male’s control over his rating of physical attractiveness (via choice of clothes, grooming, posture, voice tone, etc.)
Male’s ability to display desirable characteristics through attitude, touch, story, listening, and other ways of creating mood, chemistry, or attraction.
Degree of interest shown in a male by other females (note that other studies have found that women are much more likely to perceive men to be attractive if it appears that other women are attracted to them)
These are just a few of the qualities that PUAs use to influence attraction, none of which were measured or controlled for by the study.
So, your summary is an overstatement: at .69 individual correlation, this means that even by a woman’s own judgment of physical attractiveness is not an absolute factor. You can still come out ahead (or screw it up) by what else you have/do.
What’s more, at .39 independent rating correlation, this means that people differ in attractiveness ratings for the same person. Whether people in general find you attractive matters considerably less than what the individual you’re after thinks.
Last, but not least, IIUC not a single PUA theory of attraction is even tested by this research, let alone debunked. So even if you’re ugly, there’s still hope for you. ;-)
Thanks for clarifying what factors you think are relevant. I agree that those have not been tested.
Nobody. Their problem, they fix it. If they can’t, well, not all problems have solutions, and if you’re screwed enough, you’re screwed.
Ok, things aren’t quite as harsh as that, there’s the whole PUA thing (I have no experience of how effective it is), and various insights to be had from evolutionary psychology. Information is out there. (Can anyone suggest any other worthwhile—by rationalist standards—sources on the subject?) But no advice will magically solve the problem. Unlike giving someone a Google Maps pointer to a destination, the individual still has to apply himself with no certainty of success.
“You have before you the disassembled parts of a high-powered hunting rifle, and the instructions written in Swahili. In five minutes an angry Bengal tiger will walk into the room.”—Eugene Miya
I hate to make this recommendation (especially 2 years late), but figuring out how much alcohol you need to turn from an underconfident introvert to a comfortable socialite (without tipping too far in that direction) has helped me.
Introversion and confidence are completely unrelated. You probably weren’t implying that, but for anyone who comes across this in the future: introversion is not about confidence, shyness, self-esteem, anxiety or anything of that sort. The sheer amount of people who fail to make this distinction is one of the most irritating things I have come across.
Hmm. Yeah, I agree with you. But booze loosens something up for me. It turns something in my social brain on high. This is not the same thing as confidence, so my wording was bad.