So basically he accidentally torpedoed his original campaign and his life as Quirrel is just making the best of it? But then why didn’t he just restart his original campaign? Quirrel seems quite powerful enough to credibly claim to be Voldemort resurrected and enforce his rule, based on his duel in Azkaban with a top Auror and his general position at Hogwarts.
When Dumbledore tells his closest colleagues that draining the life from a follower over a long period would render Voldemort weak compared to his former power, I’m inclined to believe him. Even if you’re not, there’s the rather inconvenient periods of near-catatonia to get around. (Unless you think that’s an act for some reason?)
Chapter 49: … the Defense Professor, who was slumped over with a small stream of drool coming out of his slack mouth and puddling on his robes.
Chapter 72: …and Quirrell, face slack, was taking trembling stabs at his soup using a spoon gripped in a fist.
The catatonia appears to be getting worse and worse over time. Channeling strong magic through Quirrell accelerates the decay. I suspect he’ll crap out as a host by the end of the school year, and that’s with Quirrell being reasonably conservative of his energy.
Worse? What makes you say that? We seem to be seeing ever more action on his part, I actually would have said: from the Azkaban duel to his commentary in battles (and setting them up too) to his casual displays of sheer power/skill in the interrogation of chapter the last.
Harry comments at some point that “He’d noticed the correlation between the effort Professor Quirrell expended and the time he had to spend ‘resting’.” (74)
Harry notices after Azkaban that Quirrell looks older (65).
What I meant was that it seems like Quirrell has spent more and more of his time active using his body as little as possible. Maybe we’ve just seen it more because he’s hid less from Harry? In the most recent battle he talked and made the tiniest possible shrug but otherwise didn’t move at all. When he was grading papers he did it purely by magic as well. Whenever he can let his body sit around and not move, he seems to try to do that.
Harry notices after Azkaban that Quirrell looks older (65).
That could simply be Quirrell looking very tired and worn out, like he had just run a marathon while watching Grave of the Fireflies. It’s fairly common to describe someone as looking older in circumstances like that.
My comment was made before the chapter was posted with the explicit statement by Bones that the catatonia was increasing, which I accept; I stand by my characterization of previous chapters indicating any progression as extremely subtle...
Well, then we get into other issues. For example, Quirrelmort. If that’s true, then we have an extremely non-subtle massively plot-relevant point, and if it’s false, then Eliezer has laid so many red herrings we can trust little or nothing not explicitly shown or stated.
(Actually, I would expect that to be one of the first things Voldemort modified about himself, if it’s at all possible.)
I meant more the problems it presents for intimidation value, but I guess if you’ve Marked your followers to ensure loyalty and/or obedience regardless, it’s just a matter of not spending a lot of time in the public eye, which he’d be doing anyway. It’s still pretty undignified, but that doesn’t seem to bother Quirrell overmuch, so...
The real question, which I don’t believe the duel with Bahry or the Massacre of the Bullies answers, is whether Quirrell could stand up to Dumbledore. If he couldn’t—even if he just had significantly less endurance—that would make it pretty hard to claim the mantle of Voldemort.
If Quirrell was confident he could kill Dumbledore he would have done so by now, of that I’m certain. Gods, Eliezer better be planning to write this fight eventually.
For Quirrell it would be “in character” to kill Dumbledore in such a way, that everybody would think it was natural death. Or at least assasinate him quietly without witnesses, without time for Dumbledore to react.
BTW—what stops Quirrell from polyjuicing as Harry, asking for private audience in Dumbledore apartment, doing quick surprise Avada Kedavra, and flying out of window? Or better yet—put Albus body to magical pouch, polyjuice as Dumbledore and run Hogward ever since. Dumbledore behaves quite strange, and rarely shows publicly, so it wouldn’t be hard to do.
I can only think that Quirrell thinks everything is going according to plan, and no need to make the game more chaotic by killin Dumbledore now.
Dumbledore seems to do just fine animating things to move between him and the curse. Maybe DumbleMoR can conjure a steel shield faster than it’s possible to say Avadakedavra.
BTW—what stops Quirrell from polyjuicing as Harry, asking for private audience in Dumbledore apartment, doing quick surprise Avada Kedavra, and flying out of window? Or better yet—put Albus body to magical pouch, polyjuice as Dumbledore and run Hogward ever since. Dumbledore behaves quite strange, and rarely shows publicly, so it wouldn’t be hard to do.
Dumbledore might have other methods of recognizing such a disguise. Perhaps, for instance, he can detect the approximate magical strength of a person regardless of their appearance? In Half-Blood Prince, while seeking out one of Voldemort’s horcruxes, he and Harry encounter a device which is supposed to detect when a wizard passes through by registering their power, and Dumbledore notes that next to him, it’s not even going to notice Harry. Perhaps while a switch like Barty Crouch Junior for Alastor Moody could slip his notice, a huge disparity like Quirrell for an eleven year old Harry would be an immediate red flag in his senses.
Perhaps, for instance, he can detect the approximate magical strength of a person regardless of their appearance?
Yep:
“I know,” said the old wizard. “My apologies, Amelia.” He sighed. “Some of the more recent prisoners had scraps of their magic left, when I looked upon them, but I sensed no uneaten power; the strongest had only as much magic left as a first-year child.
Dumbledore’s death would probably be not worth the trouble right now, but I think that if it were possible Quirrell would have removed and impersonated him before Harry ever got to Hogwarts.
Quirrell probably has more raw talent than Albus, but when someone has an ancient wand that guarantees combat victory talent isn’t enough. He’s smart enough to know he’ll need to plot his way to victory, because he is not beating the Elder Wand.
Even in canon, Voldemort rarely goes up against Dumbledore directly. They rarely ever meet after he graduates. IIRC, it’s something like he applies for 1) Defense against the Dark arts & is rejected; 2) hides from Dumbledore on Quirrel’s head (indefinite number of encounters); 3) fights Dumbledore in the Ministry to a draw; and that’s about it.
So in all that long period of open war, during which Lily & James Potter and Alice & Frank Longbottom both fought Voldemort and survived three times each, the strongest Light wizard in Britain never crossed wands with his foe?
Sure. We are told Voldemort feared Dumbledore, are we not? Does a chess player immediately send out his queen to duel the other player’s queen? And is this not exactly what happened with the previous Dark Lord—were we not explicitly told in canon that Dumbledore only encountered Grindelwald at their final clash and they never met between that and the death of his sister?
We are told Voldemort feared Dumbledore, are we not?
Well, were we, though? What chapter was that in? Or are we discussing canon now? I admit I’m somewhat confused.
were we not explicitly told in canon that Dumbledore only encountered Grindelwald at their final clash and they never met between that and the death of his sister?
Yes, but that was due to Dumbledore’s rather cowardly dithering. The situation with Voldemort is rather different.
If your idea is correct, I would expect there were a few well-publicized instances of Dumbledore interrupting a Death Eater raid in a flash of phoenix fire, sending Voldemort running with his tail between his legs. That… doesn’t really sound like MoRdemort, does it?
I’m pretty sure MoRdemort (pre-Quirrell-meld) is meant to be very much like canon!Voldemort—nasty, ruthless, very magically powerful, in possession of exactly one good idea (the dark mark), and as intelligent as Rowling could write him (not an insult to Rowling). When asked to outwit a dark lord (in chapter 39, I believe?) Harry thinks that Voldemort wouldn’t be much of a challenge, but Quirrell would be another matter entirely.
As Dumbledore says, Voldemort was never Dumbledore’s destined foe. But he wasn’t Harry’s destined foe either. He had to be shattered by Dumbledore so he could transmute into Quirrellmort, who is Harry’s destined foe. So Voldemort is an intermediate step, and obviously not as smart/dangerous as his final incarnation as Quirrellmort.
Harry thinks that Voldemort wouldn’t be much of a challenge, but Quirrell would be another matter entirely.
Doubtless Harry based that belief on his extensive experience with Voldemort. Dumbledore’s opinion, on the other hand:
“Aye, it is he,” Albus said. “Azkaban has endured impenetrable for ages, only to fall to an ordinary Animagus potion. It is too clever and too impossible, which was ever Voldemort’s signature since the days he was known as Tom Riddle. Anyone who wished to forge that signature must needs be as cunning as Voldemort himself to do so. And there is no one else in the world who would accidentally overestimate my wit, and leave me a message I cannot understand at all.”
Dumbledore was a credible threat to him even back when he had his full power. In his weakened state, there may be too much danger that he would end up in a direct confrontation with Dumbledore or some union of strong opponents and lose. McGonagall’s reminiscences of having encountered Voldemort before, three times at Dumbledore’s side, implies that they’ve faced each other head on before.
But even if he could manage it as a matter of convenience, he might not be able to as a matter of pride. Dumbledore said that he doesn’t think Voldemort would settle for any less than the strongest instantiation of the spell that would return him to power. Even if he has some avenue to victory which would probably work, he may simply be dissatisfied with any plan which does not result in him completely regaining his powers.
So basically he accidentally torpedoed his original campaign and his life as Quirrel is just making the best of it? But then why didn’t he just restart his original campaign? Quirrel seems quite powerful enough to credibly claim to be Voldemort resurrected and enforce his rule, based on his duel in Azkaban with a top Auror and his general position at Hogwarts.
When Dumbledore tells his closest colleagues that draining the life from a follower over a long period would render Voldemort weak compared to his former power, I’m inclined to believe him. Even if you’re not, there’s the rather inconvenient periods of near-catatonia to get around. (Unless you think that’s an act for some reason?)
Everybody sleeps eventually, which is worse than Quirrel’s catatonia.
The catatonia appears to be getting worse and worse over time. Channeling strong magic through Quirrell accelerates the decay. I suspect he’ll crap out as a host by the end of the school year, and that’s with Quirrell being reasonably conservative of his energy.
Worse? What makes you say that? We seem to be seeing ever more action on his part, I actually would have said: from the Azkaban duel to his commentary in battles (and setting them up too) to his casual displays of sheer power/skill in the interrogation of chapter the last.
Harry comments at some point that “He’d noticed the correlation between the effort Professor Quirrell expended and the time he had to spend ‘resting’.” (74)
Harry notices after Azkaban that Quirrell looks older (65).
What I meant was that it seems like Quirrell has spent more and more of his time active using his body as little as possible. Maybe we’ve just seen it more because he’s hid less from Harry? In the most recent battle he talked and made the tiniest possible shrug but otherwise didn’t move at all. When he was grading papers he did it purely by magic as well. Whenever he can let his body sit around and not move, he seems to try to do that.
That could simply be Quirrell looking very tired and worn out, like he had just run a marathon while watching Grave of the Fireflies. It’s fairly common to describe someone as looking older in circumstances like that.
Mm. Maybe. Not very strong evidence either way. If it’s meant to be a plot point, I would expect it to be telegraphed more strongly.
I’m not sure we’re reading the same story.
My comment was made before the chapter was posted with the explicit statement by Bones that the catatonia was increasing, which I accept; I stand by my characterization of previous chapters indicating any progression as extremely subtle...
My point was intended the opposite way: It seems to me that many plot-relevant details are extremely subtle.
Well, then we get into other issues. For example, Quirrelmort. If that’s true, then we have an extremely non-subtle massively plot-relevant point, and if it’s false, then Eliezer has laid so many red herrings we can trust little or nothing not explicitly shown or stated.
I did not intend to imply that no plot-relevant points are non-subtle.
(Actually, I would expect that to be one of the first things Voldemort modified about himself, if it’s at all possible.)
I meant more the problems it presents for intimidation value, but I guess if you’ve Marked your followers to ensure loyalty and/or obedience regardless, it’s just a matter of not spending a lot of time in the public eye, which he’d be doing anyway. It’s still pretty undignified, but that doesn’t seem to bother Quirrell overmuch, so...
The real question, which I don’t believe the duel with Bahry or the Massacre of the Bullies answers, is whether Quirrell could stand up to Dumbledore. If he couldn’t—even if he just had significantly less endurance—that would make it pretty hard to claim the mantle of Voldemort.
If Quirrell was confident he could kill Dumbledore he would have done so by now, of that I’m certain. Gods, Eliezer better be planning to write this fight eventually.
For Quirrell it would be “in character” to kill Dumbledore in such a way, that everybody would think it was natural death. Or at least assasinate him quietly without witnesses, without time for Dumbledore to react.
BTW—what stops Quirrell from polyjuicing as Harry, asking for private audience in Dumbledore apartment, doing quick surprise Avada Kedavra, and flying out of window? Or better yet—put Albus body to magical pouch, polyjuice as Dumbledore and run Hogward ever since. Dumbledore behaves quite strange, and rarely shows publicly, so it wouldn’t be hard to do.
I can only think that Quirrell thinks everything is going according to plan, and no need to make the game more chaotic by killin Dumbledore now.
“Polyfluis Reverso!”
If killing Dumbledore were as simple as yelling “Avada Kedavra” at him when his back is turned, he’d already be dead.
I’ve thought if you’re not Harry Potter, and you have brain, then the only way to survive Avada Kedavra is not to be there?
And when Harry sneaked to Dumbledore last time he (D.) had not cast anything to check if it was Harry. Maybe he can do this quietly.
Dumbledore seems to do just fine animating things to move between him and the curse. Maybe DumbleMoR can conjure a steel shield faster than it’s possible to say Avadakedavra.
Dumbledore might have other methods of recognizing such a disguise. Perhaps, for instance, he can detect the approximate magical strength of a person regardless of their appearance? In Half-Blood Prince, while seeking out one of Voldemort’s horcruxes, he and Harry encounter a device which is supposed to detect when a wizard passes through by registering their power, and Dumbledore notes that next to him, it’s not even going to notice Harry. Perhaps while a switch like Barty Crouch Junior for Alastor Moody could slip his notice, a huge disparity like Quirrell for an eleven year old Harry would be an immediate red flag in his senses.
Yep:
Dumbledore’s death would probably be not worth the trouble right now, but I think that if it were possible Quirrell would have removed and impersonated him before Harry ever got to Hogwarts.
Quirrell probably has more raw talent than Albus, but when someone has an ancient wand that guarantees combat victory talent isn’t enough. He’s smart enough to know he’ll need to plot his way to victory, because he is not beating the Elder Wand.
Even in canon, Voldemort rarely goes up against Dumbledore directly. They rarely ever meet after he graduates. IIRC, it’s something like he applies for 1) Defense against the Dark arts & is rejected; 2) hides from Dumbledore on Quirrel’s head (indefinite number of encounters); 3) fights Dumbledore in the Ministry to a draw; and that’s about it.
At the beginning of Chapter 62, though, we learn that McGonagall has faced Voldemort four times:
“She had encountered the Dark Lord four times and survived each one, three times with Albus to shield her and once with Moody at her side.”
This makes it likely that Dumbledore has faced Voldemort on other occasions without her.
Another MoR divergence, perhaps; nothing in canon comes to mind.
So in all that long period of open war, during which Lily & James Potter and Alice & Frank Longbottom both fought Voldemort and survived three times each, the strongest Light wizard in Britain never crossed wands with his foe?
Sure. We are told Voldemort feared Dumbledore, are we not? Does a chess player immediately send out his queen to duel the other player’s queen? And is this not exactly what happened with the previous Dark Lord—were we not explicitly told in canon that Dumbledore only encountered Grindelwald at their final clash and they never met between that and the death of his sister?
Well, were we, though? What chapter was that in? Or are we discussing canon now? I admit I’m somewhat confused.
Yes, but that was due to Dumbledore’s rather cowardly dithering. The situation with Voldemort is rather different.
If your idea is correct, I would expect there were a few well-publicized instances of Dumbledore interrupting a Death Eater raid in a flash of phoenix fire, sending Voldemort running with his tail between his legs. That… doesn’t really sound like MoRdemort, does it?
Canon. MoR introduces extra difficulties like the implied Nazi blood-sacrifice empowering of Grindelwald.
I don’t know what to make of MoRdemort. If I did, I think a fair number of obscurities or mysteries would snap into place.
I’m pretty sure MoRdemort (pre-Quirrell-meld) is meant to be very much like canon!Voldemort—nasty, ruthless, very magically powerful, in possession of exactly one good idea (the dark mark), and as intelligent as Rowling could write him (not an insult to Rowling). When asked to outwit a dark lord (in chapter 39, I believe?) Harry thinks that Voldemort wouldn’t be much of a challenge, but Quirrell would be another matter entirely.
As Dumbledore says, Voldemort was never Dumbledore’s destined foe. But he wasn’t Harry’s destined foe either. He had to be shattered by Dumbledore so he could transmute into Quirrellmort, who is Harry’s destined foe. So Voldemort is an intermediate step, and obviously not as smart/dangerous as his final incarnation as Quirrellmort.
Doubtless Harry based that belief on his extensive experience with Voldemort. Dumbledore’s opinion, on the other hand:
Dumbledore was a credible threat to him even back when he had his full power. In his weakened state, there may be too much danger that he would end up in a direct confrontation with Dumbledore or some union of strong opponents and lose. McGonagall’s reminiscences of having encountered Voldemort before, three times at Dumbledore’s side, implies that they’ve faced each other head on before.
But even if he could manage it as a matter of convenience, he might not be able to as a matter of pride. Dumbledore said that he doesn’t think Voldemort would settle for any less than the strongest instantiation of the spell that would return him to power. Even if he has some avenue to victory which would probably work, he may simply be dissatisfied with any plan which does not result in him completely regaining his powers.