And the guy will be fully justified in coming to the conclusion that (a) the woman doesn’t trust him;
Indeed. And will be fully justified in feeling insulted; after all, that lie communicates the sentiment “I think there’s a non-trivial possibility that you will turn hostile/abusive/violent if I reject your advances”. I’d sure feel insulted at having such a sentiment expressed toward me.
Of course, if in this situation the man and woman don’t know each other, or are very casual acquaintances, then it’s not really a big insult, because hey, random dude off the street could easily be that kind of asshole. But the closer your acquaintance is, the more insulting it is to use the lie-to-smooth-rejection.
“I think there’s a non-trivial possibility that you will turn hostile/abusive/violent if I reject your advances”
Other possibilities include some or all of: “I think you’ll be hurt by my real reasons for rejecting you. I see no benefit in making those reasons clear, and it makes me uncomfortable to cause other people distress (I don’t think you’ll get angry! probably just sad). You might prefer the painful truth, but given that we’re merely acquaintances, that preference of yours doesn’t outweigh my wish to avoid an awkward scene. In fact, I doubt you value the truth about the matter so highly that I’d be fulfilling your real (if not espoused) preferences by delivering a harsh truth. Finally, I think that while you’re not partner material, you’re fun enough to hang out with on occasion. Telling you that I think you’re a 5.5/10 kind of person would make future encounters awkward too, so on balance it seems better to lie and preserve a mildly pleasurable, casual friendship.”
Still insulting, I guess, but not for the same reasons. I think the ‘hostile/abusive/violent’ thing is a lot rarer than the above.
Yes, your description seems plausible. I was responding specifically to the reason Chris was describing, but you are correct that your described reason also happens.
Still insulting, I guess, but not for the same reasons.
Yeah… most of that isn’t insulting, but “In fact, I doubt you value the truth about the matter so highly that I’d be fulfilling your real (if not espoused) preferences by delivering a harsh truth.” is, somewhat.
I think the ‘hostile/abusive/violent’ thing is a lot rarer than the above.
Well, maybe. Depends on which feminist websites you read, you might get different estimates. I have witnessed and heard about (from friends / acquaintances) of both sorts of situations, certainly.
Most people we meet will not have as high an opinion of us as we might hope. Politeness dictates they should not spell out all the ways in which this is true. When you manage to indirectly infer they don’t have such a high opinion of you in spite of their politeness, you probably shouldn’t get too insulted.
Again, this depends on how closely you know / how friendly you are with the person in question.
Someone I met once or several times, with whom I am on speaking terms but not really at all close, thinks there’s a nontrivial chance I might be a potential violent asshole? I don’t get too insulted (although I would draw conclusions from this about that person’s world view, and might condition considerations of increased friendliness with that person on the basis of those conclusions).
Someone I am more socially close to thinks this of me? I’m more insulted. I mean, this isn’t the sort of “not as high of an opinion as one might hope” where they politely refrain from saying that I put way too much salt in my casserole. This is quite a bit more serious.
Indeed. And will be fully justified in feeling insulted; after all, that lie communicates the sentiment “I think there’s a non-trivial possibility that you will turn hostile/abusive/violent if I reject your advances”. I’d sure feel insulted at having such a sentiment expressed toward me.
There’s a lot of possibilities here, which are potentially less insulting. To add some:
If she reveals the true reasons for rejecting him, then he might might express judgmentalness about them, or some other reaction which is negative, but not actually hostile/abusive/violent.
If she reveals the true reasons for rejecting him, he might briefly express an emotional reaction that he regrets later.
If she reveals the true reasons for rejecting him, then he might not understand and ask for an explanation, which could result in discomfort, or her needed to reveal information that she doesn’t want to reveal.
If she reveals the true reasons for rejecting him, then he might try to change the situation to have her change her mind. If she doesn’t want him to try to change her mind, then it might be better to not let him think that he might be able to.
If she reveals the true reasons for rejection him, he might take it too hard and develop unwarranted insecurities in the future.
(I am using she and he to be consistent with ChrisHallquist’s example, though I believe that these concerns apply to rejection in other gender combinations).
In my experience, and hearing the experience of friends and partners, there are plenty of good reason to anticipate a non-graceful response to hearing someone’s “true rejection” in a sexual or romantic context. Most of these reactions will be more in the embarrassing/awkward category, rather than hostile/abusive/violent. Even if there is a low probability that a given person will react ungracefully, the negative utility of that reaction might be sufficiently high that the expected value of revealing the truth is low.
For these reasons, I would not automatically be offended if someone won’t tell me the truth about why they are rejecting me, and I won’t take it as perceiving me to be untrustworthy, hostile, abusive, or violent. Of course, I would prefer to hear the truth; I just don’t expect it, and I accept that I may never find it out.
This matches my experience from the female side of the situation—except that I’ll add that a lying rejection doesn’t necessarily represent explicit thought. Subjectively, it can be like a feeling or a reflex.
This doesn’t mean I think it’s genetically innate, but I do think it can be learned so early and subtly that it seems like the obvious thing to do.
I think you’re reading too much into their thought process. You of course have all the right to be insulted but if you can’t hide it you might make their fear a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
It might help to alleviate the insult to remember that these kinds of judgements can be more a result of flawed heuristics that evolution spawned than deliberate reasoning. People can be quite clueless of what they’re afraid of, especially in complex situations that all social situations happen to be.
You of course have all the right to be insulted but if you can’t hide it you might make their fear a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
Wait, what? Are you equating being offended at someone implying that you’re a violent asshole, with actually being a violent asshole?
Doesn’t that sort of equation make most insults into self-fulfilling prophecies? “I called her a bitch, and she got angry! Thus proving my point!” “I told him he was a moron, and he got insulted! What a moron for not realizing that he’s a moron!”
It might help to alleviate the insult to remember that these kinds of judgements might be more a result of flawed heuristics that evolution spawned than deliberate reasoning. People can be quite clueless of what they’re afraid of, especially in complex situations that all social situations happen to be.
Yes, that’s true. The less self-aware, rational, and generally intelligent a person is, the less insulted I am when they think poorly of me.
Someone witholds information from you because they’re afraid you might get hostile. You think they should think more highly of you and get offended. You facial expressions and your tone of voice signal the person you’re angry. Which way do you think this will affect their mostly subconscious estimation of your potential hostility in the case of volunteering the information?
I’m not trying to justify any behavior, I was referring to witholding information.
Indeed. And will be fully justified in feeling insulted; after all, that lie communicates the sentiment “I think there’s a non-trivial possibility that you will turn hostile/abusive/violent if I reject your advances”. I’d sure feel insulted at having such a sentiment expressed toward me.
Of course, if in this situation the man and woman don’t know each other, or are very casual acquaintances, then it’s not really a big insult, because hey, random dude off the street could easily be that kind of asshole. But the closer your acquaintance is, the more insulting it is to use the lie-to-smooth-rejection.
Other possibilities include some or all of: “I think you’ll be hurt by my real reasons for rejecting you. I see no benefit in making those reasons clear, and it makes me uncomfortable to cause other people distress (I don’t think you’ll get angry! probably just sad). You might prefer the painful truth, but given that we’re merely acquaintances, that preference of yours doesn’t outweigh my wish to avoid an awkward scene. In fact, I doubt you value the truth about the matter so highly that I’d be fulfilling your real (if not espoused) preferences by delivering a harsh truth. Finally, I think that while you’re not partner material, you’re fun enough to hang out with on occasion. Telling you that I think you’re a 5.5/10 kind of person would make future encounters awkward too, so on balance it seems better to lie and preserve a mildly pleasurable, casual friendship.”
Still insulting, I guess, but not for the same reasons. I think the ‘hostile/abusive/violent’ thing is a lot rarer than the above.
Yes, your description seems plausible. I was responding specifically to the reason Chris was describing, but you are correct that your described reason also happens.
Yeah… most of that isn’t insulting, but “In fact, I doubt you value the truth about the matter so highly that I’d be fulfilling your real (if not espoused) preferences by delivering a harsh truth.” is, somewhat.
Well, maybe. Depends on which feminist websites you read, you might get different estimates. I have witnessed and heard about (from friends / acquaintances) of both sorts of situations, certainly.
Most people we meet will not have as high an opinion of us as we might hope. Politeness dictates they should not spell out all the ways in which this is true. When you manage to indirectly infer they don’t have such a high opinion of you in spite of their politeness, you probably shouldn’t get too insulted.
Again, this depends on how closely you know / how friendly you are with the person in question.
Someone I met once or several times, with whom I am on speaking terms but not really at all close, thinks there’s a nontrivial chance I might be a potential violent asshole? I don’t get too insulted (although I would draw conclusions from this about that person’s world view, and might condition considerations of increased friendliness with that person on the basis of those conclusions).
Someone I am more socially close to thinks this of me? I’m more insulted. I mean, this isn’t the sort of “not as high of an opinion as one might hope” where they politely refrain from saying that I put way too much salt in my casserole. This is quite a bit more serious.
There’s a lot of possibilities here, which are potentially less insulting. To add some:
If she reveals the true reasons for rejecting him, then he might might express judgmentalness about them, or some other reaction which is negative, but not actually hostile/abusive/violent.
If she reveals the true reasons for rejecting him, he might briefly express an emotional reaction that he regrets later.
If she reveals the true reasons for rejecting him, then he might not understand and ask for an explanation, which could result in discomfort, or her needed to reveal information that she doesn’t want to reveal.
If she reveals the true reasons for rejecting him, then he might try to change the situation to have her change her mind. If she doesn’t want him to try to change her mind, then it might be better to not let him think that he might be able to.
If she reveals the true reasons for rejection him, he might take it too hard and develop unwarranted insecurities in the future.
(I am using she and he to be consistent with ChrisHallquist’s example, though I believe that these concerns apply to rejection in other gender combinations).
In my experience, and hearing the experience of friends and partners, there are plenty of good reason to anticipate a non-graceful response to hearing someone’s “true rejection” in a sexual or romantic context. Most of these reactions will be more in the embarrassing/awkward category, rather than hostile/abusive/violent. Even if there is a low probability that a given person will react ungracefully, the negative utility of that reaction might be sufficiently high that the expected value of revealing the truth is low.
For these reasons, I would not automatically be offended if someone won’t tell me the truth about why they are rejecting me, and I won’t take it as perceiving me to be untrustworthy, hostile, abusive, or violent. Of course, I would prefer to hear the truth; I just don’t expect it, and I accept that I may never find it out.
This matches my experience from the female side of the situation—except that I’ll add that a lying rejection doesn’t necessarily represent explicit thought. Subjectively, it can be like a feeling or a reflex.
This doesn’t mean I think it’s genetically innate, but I do think it can be learned so early and subtly that it seems like the obvious thing to do.
I think you’re reading too much into their thought process. You of course have all the right to be insulted but if you can’t hide it you might make their fear a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
It might help to alleviate the insult to remember that these kinds of judgements can be more a result of flawed heuristics that evolution spawned than deliberate reasoning. People can be quite clueless of what they’re afraid of, especially in complex situations that all social situations happen to be.
Wait, what? Are you equating being offended at someone implying that you’re a violent asshole, with actually being a violent asshole?
Doesn’t that sort of equation make most insults into self-fulfilling prophecies? “I called her a bitch, and she got angry! Thus proving my point!” “I told him he was a moron, and he got insulted! What a moron for not realizing that he’s a moron!”
Yes, that’s true. The less self-aware, rational, and generally intelligent a person is, the less insulted I am when they think poorly of me.
Of course not. I’m not justifying the behavior, I’m explaining why getting insulted might be suboptimal as it might breed more of said behavior.
I don’t think I follow. Specify, please, to which behavior you refer.
Someone witholds information from you because they’re afraid you might get hostile. You think they should think more highly of you and get offended. You facial expressions and your tone of voice signal the person you’re angry. Which way do you think this will affect their mostly subconscious estimation of your potential hostility in the case of volunteering the information?
I’m not trying to justify any behavior, I was referring to witholding information.
I understand what you’re saying now, yes. (I think “self-fulfilling prophecy” is a misleading term to use to describe this, though.)
As to your question: I think this falls into the category of “person is not very self-aware or rational”.
I agree the expression doesn’t fit like a glove, just thought it was close enough. What do you think is misleading about it?
Perhaps, and the way I see it these qualities inconvenience even the best of us much of the time.