I’m a fan of correspondences in general, but this one in particular seems good for communicating some intuitions about the flavor of ideals.
A big point of conflict I’ve had with other people in the “community” is that they’re very White-based, and White framings are toxic to me. This is hard to communicate about, because saying something like “I hate goodness” sounds paradoxical, and most moral or idealistic words are White-flavored. The truth is something more like “the high-mindedness and formality of White feels dead and tyrannical to me, I want life and freedom and even greed.” Talking about the color-feeling instead of the abstraction is a better way of expressing this. I’m Blue-Black-Red, instead of Blue-White. If I could push people (or myself) in a direction, it would be towards doing more cool shit (in a mad-science, art, business, etc sense) and putting less focus on trying to be righteous/pure/rule-abiding.
The White-vs.-Black conflict is alive and painful for me (as I live in a world of White but have some strong Black inclinations.) The Red-vs-Blue conflict always seems like a “wrong question” to me—“reason vs. emotion” never quite resonates as a real opposition, and I can never tell which I prefer. As does the Red-vs-White conflict—structure vs. spontaneity seems like a tradeoff depending on circumstances, not a cosmic struggle. Blue-vs.-Green and Black-vs.-Green seem like easy questions, rather than wrong questions or live questions; from my perspective, Green is obviously wrong.
White seems important but painful to me; I always want to dialogue with White, or trade with White. Green seems alien and like a thing I can’t compromise with.
White ideal-words (“good”, “right”, “just”) always feel at least a little aversive to me, but feel “binding” upon me. Black ideal-words (“strong”, “proud”, “independent”) or Red ideal-words (“alive”, “free”, “joyful”, “brave”) excite me; these are magic words that motivate me powerfully. Blue ideal-words seem mildly positive but not magical, and Green ideal-words get tagged as “not relevant to my life.”
I’d be curious to see other people’s personal responses to the colors.
Here are some white cards from the original set: Crusade. Wrath of God. Armageddon. Disenchant.
White feels oppressive because of course it’s oppressive, it’s the rules-imposing, order-loving color, but also because it’s winning. And the winning kinds of white are not the good kinds. Ra is white, obviously. New World Order and the Technocracy in Mage is white (The Syndicate is black which is a hint that it’s not actually in the Technocracy but rather the victim of a vicious propaganda campaign by the traditions). The AIs and AGIs we are worried about are white and we’re trying to make sure they’re blue.
You need white but you cannot let it win. When white wins the world dies. Of course, when most of the other colors win, the world would also die—red would see the world burn, green would see our cities crumble into dust, black would sell our souls to Moloch or worse. Blue wouldn’t do the work to keep the system working, so even it needs balance. White talks a good game trying to make us fear those scenarios but the suffocation via white is the one that might actually happen. So rebelling against it is a reasonable immune reaction, especially if you feel vulnerable to its commands and slogans. Balance is necessary, although we can argue where balance should be—I can basically say, screw red mostly, but you absolutely cannot let it die.
This is as opposed to some other such systems—e.g. Spiral Dynamics talks a big game about how all the colors are valuable and important but at least one of them really should go die in a fire.
You need white but you cannot let it win. When white wins the world dies. Of course, when most of the other colors win, the world would also die. White talks a good game trying to make us fear those scenarios but the suffocation via white is the one that might actually happen
This was an interesting crystallization of some earlier comments of yours, that I think helps me understand your point of view on some other things.
I’m 100% sure I buy it but it is at least a compelling concern.
My favorite Mage homebrew has them merging with the Sons of Ether and taking Forces, and the Solificati merging with the Order of Hermes and taking Matter.
The conflict you feel resonates with me. The parts of the greater rationalist community that make me feel uncomfortable are firmly White; I disagree with most of their moral framework and am often annoyed that many of their moral proclamations are unquestioned and are assumed to be ‘good’; ie, effective altruism, animal rights charities, etc.
A large part of what drives me is a Blue/Black desire to know things to help myself and make my life more awesome. Unlike Sarah above, I am excited by Blue words (“knowing”, “understanding”) because they cash out in better ways to achieve my Black desires.
Whatever MIRI’s public persona is, I think of their most exciting research as Blue/Black. The study of decision theory is firmly about enlightened self interest, especially when you start thinking of the differences between PrudentBot and FairBot. Let the two of us trade, TDT/FDT style, to our mutual benefit. Any constraints on our behaviour are not imposed, as White might, but are consensual self-modifications to our decision processes so that we may maximize our individual utility through superior understanding.
I’m Red-Blue, trying to shift towards Black as a deliberate effort. A common pattern I see in myself is spotting both a pragmatic solution that improves things for me and a needlessly clever and novel solution that I actually pick, and then kicking myself when the clever solution works but doesn’t actually advance my position as much as the Black choice would have. I have absolutely said the wrong thing in conversation because I came up with some really fun turn of phrase that I just had to try. I enjoy watching other people’s Red-Blue shine too; I even enjoy being heckled or argued with as long as the insults or counterpoints are sufficiently new and interesting. I share your evaluation of Red-vs-Blue as the wrong question. They feed into each other for me, Red providing goals and rewards and Blue providing means and methods. At the very core, I think of myself as fundamentally Black and selfish though.
I admire White, I think White has the best levers for completing large projects, I think that minor tweaks to White’s rules can make a much larger difference in more people’s lives than most ideas Red or Blue come up with, but I have a really hard time binding myself into White. I also have a mental tic where the most interesting thing about White to me is always how to break it, thinking about where the smallest wrench could be thrown to bring the whole thing crashing down. I wish I had more Green, but I think it was too late in my development before I realized it would be possible to be part of a pack. I still think I could (and would really enjoy) being part of a community like that, but at this point I think it would have to be formed for Black reasons (with each member feeling like joining and staying was to their own benefit.) Green groups tend to make me feel very nervous, like I have to watch them closely for the slightest hint that they’re starting to turn on me and that I need to be able to run very fast when they do.
I feel comfortable with Black. I like it when I know what someone actually wants, and we can make deals or compete or help each other or stay out of each other’s way. I guess I have a strong prior that everyone is fundamentally Black and when someone presents themselves as another colour I have to spend time figuring out what their ulterior motive is, while when they start by saying that they’re Black we can cut to the chase a lot quicker.
It’s interesting how close this is to my own perspective, except for, basically, one point of opposition:
I’m Blue-Black-Red, instead of Blue-White. If I could push people (or myself) in a direction, it would be towards doing more cool shit (in a mad-science, art, business, etc sense) and putting less focus on trying to be righteous/pure/rule-abiding.
Me too!
The Red-vs-Blue conflict always seems like a “wrong question” to me—“reason vs. emotion” never quite resonates as a real opposition, and I can never tell which I prefer. As does the Red-vs-White conflict—structure vs. spontaneity seems like a tradeoff depending on circumstances, not a cosmic struggle. Blue-vs.-Green and Black-vs.-Green seem like easy questions, rather than wrong questions or live questions; from my perspective, Green is obviously wrong.
I feel that way too, but…
The White-vs.-Black conflict is alive and painful for me (as I live in a world of White but have some strong Black inclinations.)
…
White seems important but painful to me; I always want to dialogue with White, or trade with White. Green seems alien and like a thing I can’t compromise with.
Swap White and Green in both of these parts, and you get my view.
I think I am Green-White which would make me your polar opposite. I totally agree with you that people should be doing more cool shit, but where you would say “instead of focusing on being righteous/pure” I would say “instead of sitting around theorizing and philosophizing about the optimal shit to do and the optimal methods.”
What I get out of Green is an acceptance for the world as it is. THIS is my situation. I can learn to be satisfied with it or try to change it, but this is what it currently is, and this is what I have to work with. I have pretty low tolerance for whining. I also dislike the tendecy to make grandiose plans for oneself that are obviously above your capabilities. Growth is good. Self-delusion is not.
My Greenness ties to my Whiteness. I like community because I am a human. It is the natural state for me to desire strong communal bonds. Millions of years of evolution made me that way, and I couldn’t change that even if I wanted to. (Oftentimes my rationality plays out as “How do I-as-a-human function and can I use that to my advantage?”)
I don’t feel formal, but seeing lots of individuals moving in perfect unison is a special kind of thrill. I don’t feel hung up on things like purity, but I do feel very anti-Black. Things like selfishness, self-centeredness, and not thinking of others is very aversive for me to interact with.
I have a pretty decent amount of Blue in me (I’m hanging out here, aren’t I?) but my Blueness is more of a tool and a source of amusement than my driving force. There are issues where I can follow the Blues intricate logic chains, conclude that their reasoning is sound, but it turns out that I don’t actually care.
In the Meantime by Spacehog just came on my music feed. I had previously wondered why everyone else seems to think it’s meh, while I think it’s wonderful. Now I realize it’s because it’s a strongly Green/White song.
I’m a fan of correspondences in general, but this one in particular seems good for communicating some intuitions about the flavor of ideals.
A big point of conflict I’ve had with other people in the “community” is that they’re very White-based, and White framings are toxic to me. This is hard to communicate about, because saying something like “I hate goodness” sounds paradoxical, and most moral or idealistic words are White-flavored. The truth is something more like “the high-mindedness and formality of White feels dead and tyrannical to me, I want life and freedom and even greed.” Talking about the color-feeling instead of the abstraction is a better way of expressing this. I’m Blue-Black-Red, instead of Blue-White. If I could push people (or myself) in a direction, it would be towards doing more cool shit (in a mad-science, art, business, etc sense) and putting less focus on trying to be righteous/pure/rule-abiding.
The White-vs.-Black conflict is alive and painful for me (as I live in a world of White but have some strong Black inclinations.) The Red-vs-Blue conflict always seems like a “wrong question” to me—“reason vs. emotion” never quite resonates as a real opposition, and I can never tell which I prefer. As does the Red-vs-White conflict—structure vs. spontaneity seems like a tradeoff depending on circumstances, not a cosmic struggle. Blue-vs.-Green and Black-vs.-Green seem like easy questions, rather than wrong questions or live questions; from my perspective, Green is obviously wrong.
White seems important but painful to me; I always want to dialogue with White, or trade with White. Green seems alien and like a thing I can’t compromise with.
White ideal-words (“good”, “right”, “just”) always feel at least a little aversive to me, but feel “binding” upon me. Black ideal-words (“strong”, “proud”, “independent”) or Red ideal-words (“alive”, “free”, “joyful”, “brave”) excite me; these are magic words that motivate me powerfully. Blue ideal-words seem mildly positive but not magical, and Green ideal-words get tagged as “not relevant to my life.”
I’d be curious to see other people’s personal responses to the colors.
Here are some white cards from the original set: Crusade. Wrath of God. Armageddon. Disenchant.
White feels oppressive because of course it’s oppressive, it’s the rules-imposing, order-loving color, but also because it’s winning. And the winning kinds of white are not the good kinds. Ra is white, obviously. New World Order and the Technocracy in Mage is white (The Syndicate is black which is a hint that it’s not actually in the Technocracy but rather the victim of a vicious propaganda campaign by the traditions). The AIs and AGIs we are worried about are white and we’re trying to make sure they’re blue.
You need white but you cannot let it win. When white wins the world dies. Of course, when most of the other colors win, the world would also die—red would see the world burn, green would see our cities crumble into dust, black would sell our souls to Moloch or worse. Blue wouldn’t do the work to keep the system working, so even it needs balance. White talks a good game trying to make us fear those scenarios but the suffocation via white is the one that might actually happen. So rebelling against it is a reasonable immune reaction, especially if you feel vulnerable to its commands and slogans. Balance is necessary, although we can argue where balance should be—I can basically say, screw red mostly, but you absolutely cannot let it die.
This is as opposed to some other such systems—e.g. Spiral Dynamics talks a big game about how all the colors are valuable and important but at least one of them really should go die in a fire.
This was an interesting crystallization of some earlier comments of yours, that I think helps me understand your point of view on some other things.
I’m 100% sure I buy it but it is at least a compelling concern.
If we’re sympathizing with the technocracy in this thread I just want to note that the Void Engineers are blue and also precious.
Agreed, but they got pushed aside a while ago and are trying to find refuge with the traditions.
Tradesies for the order of hermes? They can run universities or something?
My favorite Mage homebrew has them merging with the Sons of Ether and taking Forces, and the Solificati merging with the Order of Hermes and taking Matter.
Why did the SoE and OoH switch spheres?
And anyway Void Engineers are obviously there to pick up the slack of the dying dreamspeakers and get spirit back into the technocratic paradigm.
Loren ipsum
The conflict you feel resonates with me. The parts of the greater rationalist community that make me feel uncomfortable are firmly White; I disagree with most of their moral framework and am often annoyed that many of their moral proclamations are unquestioned and are assumed to be ‘good’; ie, effective altruism, animal rights charities, etc.
A large part of what drives me is a Blue/Black desire to know things to help myself and make my life more awesome. Unlike Sarah above, I am excited by Blue words (“knowing”, “understanding”) because they cash out in better ways to achieve my Black desires.
Whatever MIRI’s public persona is, I think of their most exciting research as Blue/Black. The study of decision theory is firmly about enlightened self interest, especially when you start thinking of the differences between PrudentBot and FairBot. Let the two of us trade, TDT/FDT style, to our mutual benefit. Any constraints on our behaviour are not imposed, as White might, but are consensual self-modifications to our decision processes so that we may maximize our individual utility through superior understanding.
Loren ipsum
I’m Red-Blue, trying to shift towards Black as a deliberate effort. A common pattern I see in myself is spotting both a pragmatic solution that improves things for me and a needlessly clever and novel solution that I actually pick, and then kicking myself when the clever solution works but doesn’t actually advance my position as much as the Black choice would have. I have absolutely said the wrong thing in conversation because I came up with some really fun turn of phrase that I just had to try. I enjoy watching other people’s Red-Blue shine too; I even enjoy being heckled or argued with as long as the insults or counterpoints are sufficiently new and interesting. I share your evaluation of Red-vs-Blue as the wrong question. They feed into each other for me, Red providing goals and rewards and Blue providing means and methods. At the very core, I think of myself as fundamentally Black and selfish though.
I admire White, I think White has the best levers for completing large projects, I think that minor tweaks to White’s rules can make a much larger difference in more people’s lives than most ideas Red or Blue come up with, but I have a really hard time binding myself into White. I also have a mental tic where the most interesting thing about White to me is always how to break it, thinking about where the smallest wrench could be thrown to bring the whole thing crashing down. I wish I had more Green, but I think it was too late in my development before I realized it would be possible to be part of a pack. I still think I could (and would really enjoy) being part of a community like that, but at this point I think it would have to be formed for Black reasons (with each member feeling like joining and staying was to their own benefit.) Green groups tend to make me feel very nervous, like I have to watch them closely for the slightest hint that they’re starting to turn on me and that I need to be able to run very fast when they do.
I feel comfortable with Black. I like it when I know what someone actually wants, and we can make deals or compete or help each other or stay out of each other’s way. I guess I have a strong prior that everyone is fundamentally Black and when someone presents themselves as another colour I have to spend time figuring out what their ulterior motive is, while when they start by saying that they’re Black we can cut to the chase a lot quicker.
It’s interesting how close this is to my own perspective, except for, basically, one point of opposition:
Me too!
I feel that way too, but…
Swap White and Green in both of these parts, and you get my view.
I think I am Green-White which would make me your polar opposite. I totally agree with you that people should be doing more cool shit, but where you would say “instead of focusing on being righteous/pure” I would say “instead of sitting around theorizing and philosophizing about the optimal shit to do and the optimal methods.”
What I get out of Green is an acceptance for the world as it is. THIS is my situation. I can learn to be satisfied with it or try to change it, but this is what it currently is, and this is what I have to work with. I have pretty low tolerance for whining. I also dislike the tendecy to make grandiose plans for oneself that are obviously above your capabilities. Growth is good. Self-delusion is not.
My Greenness ties to my Whiteness. I like community because I am a human. It is the natural state for me to desire strong communal bonds. Millions of years of evolution made me that way, and I couldn’t change that even if I wanted to. (Oftentimes my rationality plays out as “How do I-as-a-human function and can I use that to my advantage?”)
I don’t feel formal, but seeing lots of individuals moving in perfect unison is a special kind of thrill. I don’t feel hung up on things like purity, but I do feel very anti-Black. Things like selfishness, self-centeredness, and not thinking of others is very aversive for me to interact with.
I have a pretty decent amount of Blue in me (I’m hanging out here, aren’t I?) but my Blueness is more of a tool and a source of amusement than my driving force. There are issues where I can follow the Blues intricate logic chains, conclude that their reasoning is sound, but it turns out that I don’t actually care.
In the Meantime by Spacehog just came on my music feed. I had previously wondered why everyone else seems to think it’s meh, while I think it’s wonderful. Now I realize it’s because it’s a strongly Green/White song.