Check out the article I linked—it is very insightful. I would agree with what you are saying if most rapes were single instances. However, most rapes are committed by a very small percentage of guys, who on average rape or attempt to rape half a dozen women each. That it is the same guys doing it repeatedly implies that it is not a mistake.
That it is the same guys doing it repeatedly implies that it is not a mistake.
nod one problem that occurs, though, is that the ‘false positive’ problem can be REALLY nasty for the people who DON’T fit the actual behavioral pattern, but who wind up in a situation or have an aspect of their personality that trips the sensors anyways.
It is true that the vast majority of rapes are committed by a small group of high-status predators who have a very effective schtick which is supported by our culture, and a smaller minority of rapes are committed as blatant predatory acts by low-status desperados, and an even SMALLER minority of rapes are actually committed due to a non-deliberate breakdown of communication by median-to-low status schlubs.
The thing is, the high-status predators are VERY GOOD at using culture to hide their predations, and to shift blame onto the desperados. This is why “stranger danger” is so much more engrained in the narrative than the actual statistics should bear out. And as the feminist community begins recognizing how rare the desperado is and shifting their focus to the predator, note that the next trick in the predator’s arsenal is to shift focus onto the schlub.
Schlub-shaming (i.e., constructing a narrative about Nice Guys and focussing more on Nice Guy shaming than you do on fighting frat boy dickishness) helps support the predators. The schlubs need education, not shaming. I’ve seen far too many social networks where the fight is between the schlubs and the feminists, because the predators are REALLY GOOD at telling the schlubs that the feminists are out to get them, and egging the schlubs into making themselves obvious targets (i.e.: the PUA community).
Instead of treating the schlubs as “easy targets” to vent their rage against the socially untouchable predators, a lot of positive gain could be made if the feminist community instead explained to the schlubs that the main thing keeping them from getting laid is the predators running around making the entire environment too dangerous and hostile, and hiding behind the schlubs to do it. (EDIT: I acknowledge that this will be hard to do in practice, because the predators are so much higher-status and more powerful than the schlubs, and our social instincts say to always attack the socially weakest targets.)
Yes, thanks for the insights. I posted something on Facebook related to this awhile back which was a precursor to thoughts above. As discussed in the comments, I completely agree with you that there are male victims of false rape accusations as well as victims of rape, and I would really love to see a system that does not harm one group of innocents as a way to protect another.
As discussed in the comments, I completely agree with you that there are male victims of false rape accusations as well as victims of rape, and I would really love to see a system that does not harm one group of innocents as a way to protect another.
Well, I think part of that is a higher reliance on personal responsibility—i.e., prevention techniques need to be discussed without an accusation of “victim blaming”.
This can be done better if the culture’s default attitude isn’t victim-blaming, of course, so now the whole damn thing looks fractal.
To make the recursion explicit: most men who try to offer advice on how not to get raped are not intending to blame the victim, but a certain subset of men are very good at creating an environment of victim-blaming that causes legitimate advice to get swallowed in the ‘victim-blaming’ filter. (These tend to be the same kinds of men who rape.) The biggest problem is that they have a VERY successful game rigged—the behaviors that enable their raping and shaming are all seen as high-status behaviors. If we want to build a new system, the first thing we need to do is to stop worshipping men as success-objects, in the same way that we reduce women to sex-objects.
A properly ‘feminist’ approach would reject the whole masculine idea of adversarial dominance-hierarchies—at core, “victim-blaming” relies on the underlying assumption that there’s always a Right Argument/Perspective and a Wrong Argument/Perspective and they fight like little soldiers.
A LOT of work needs to be done on all sides, to learn to respect narratives and come to understanding rather than play out dominance games with people’s lived experiences.
(That is not to say that there aren’t “more right” and “less wrong” perspectives to have! Just that trying to educate people that there are better perspectives adversarially is a really dumb way of going about it, and we should stop.)
Yup. As you say, this takes very careful thought. As the article linked above describes, those who enjoy partaking in predatory acts are not easy to identify, most likely have the average distribution and range of IQ including very smart ones, and are integrated into society. Some of them are also very personally interested in these topics and influencing policy. That makes changing policy well especially difficult—you have to really consider what is being said and not take anything at face value in public discussion about rape and other such topics. I’m glad that there is a growing movement working on these problems.
That makes changing policy well especially difficult—you have to really consider what is being said and not take anything at face value in public discussion about rape and other such topics.
One quick objection here: I think we absolutely have to take everything that is said at face value, AND ALSO examine the underlying subtext. This is part of what makes it so tricky.
Example: When someone says “but I respect women!”, take that at face value, and assume that they actually DO have a legitimate desire to respect women; they are just confused as to how. Use that to adjust your tactic when dealing with this person, and frame your debate with them in terms of “this is how to show your respect; the way you’re doing it now isn’t working” rather than “you are bad and you don’t actually respect women at all”. If you take that at face value and they don’t act in accordance with it, of course, call them on it.
Example: When someone says, “but she was asking for it!”, take that at face value, and assume that in their warped narrative they actually DO believe that consent was given, if not implied. Use that to adjust your tactic when dealing with this person, and frame your debate with them in terms of “this is why consent needs to be enthusiastic, and these are the failure modes of your approach” rather than “you are a filthy rapist!”. If you take that at face value and they don’t act in accordance with it, of course, call them on it.
Example: When someone says, “bros before hoes”, take that at face value, and assume that they are explicitly identifying who they wish to ally with. Use that to focus your hostility here, at the root of the issue, rather than attacking the epiphenomena “but she was asking for it!” and “but I respect women!” Because in the first two cases, taking them at face value (at least at first) gives you an opportunity to identify potential allies who are stuck behind enemy lines, AND gives you an opportunity to call people out on their bullshit far better than going in guns blazing.
That’s… about as much insight as I have, and it’s of course subject to all the usual disclaimers; we’re all stuck in this together and we’re all seeing it from different perspectives.
the predators are REALLY GOOD at telling the schlubs that the feminists are out to get them, and egging the schlubs into making themselves obvious targets (i.e.: the PUA community).
The notion that “the PUA community” has anything predatory about it is a persistent misconception. On the contrary, widespread adoption of the kind of sexual scripts PUA has pioneered is the only way I can see of making enthusiastic consent into a sustainable social norm. Otherwise males will gradually erode the norm as a way of asserting/signaling dominance in a cheap, straightforward way—and many women might go along with the erosion for the most part, simply due to being attracted to a dominant attitude. Note that aspiring PUAs would not do this, because they have superior alternatives. (It would also be a huge strategic liability, when one considers the way PUA works overall)
PUAs do teach aggressive touch escalation, less talking more body language. Don’t ask to kiss her, kiss her. That kind of thing.
An important part of PUA teaching is getting over feelings of guilt for your sexual feelings, which alphas and guys that are confident with women don’t display.
PUAs do teach aggressive touch escalation, less talking more body language. Don’t ask to kiss her, kiss her. That kind of thing.
To the extent that this happens, it is an efficient adaptation to prevailing norms: the escalation is not “spontaneous” at all—although that’s obviously a desired effect—but is carefully calibrated to minimize ‘regret’ (to the extent that this is possible based on prevailing signals). PUA also teaches other techniques that balance out active escalation (“push-pull”, “freeze-out”). We’re talking about a very broad toolkit which can adapt to a variety of scenarios.
I do agree that on net, guys into PUA are decent well meaning human beings. When I think about it from “what would I do if I were a predator” perspective, I do get the answer that learning from and trying to influence the PUA community would be a fabulous idea with many potential upsides.
I would guess that unless there is a lot of active effort to keep guys who enjoy partaking in predatory behavior out, if we assume that such men exist, I would think that there would be some active ones in the PUA community.
I would guess that unless there is a lot of active effort to keep guys who enjoy partaking in predatory behavior out, if we assume that such men exist, I would think that there would be some active ones in the PUA community.
Sure. If 6% of men are rapists in the general population, then I would expect 6% of PUA men to be rapists too, unless there was something actively selecting for or against rapists in the PUA set. That’s just the base rate; it’s no different from expecting 6% of men named “John” to be rapists.
I’m not sure that the serial rapists are high-status. I get the impression that they’re mostly medium status (typical for the bars they frequent).
The lower-end ones are, but those are the ones that tend to get caught. The recent Steubenville case seems more common to me—people who are protected at every step, who are at the pinnacle of their social group, and who are taught over and over that they are untouchable and can do no wrong.
In a certain sense, we are looking at a Pareto power distribution, due to a combination of mechanisms—at higher levels of social power, you both have more opportunity and access, and more immunity to prosecution and even suspicion.
Remember, most rapes go unreported. Similarly, many rapists go uncaught their entire lives. The demographics may seem skewed low due to the fact that higher-status rapists are far less likely to get reported against or noticed as suspects, let alone caught and convicted.
Second thought here: has anyone read enough accounts by women who’ve been raped to have at least a preliminary opinion about whether rapists tend to be high status?
There is some data that I think would be interesting - the study above listed 4 different categories that they asked guys to self report for that are rape without using the “r” word. I’d love to know how many answered yes to this particular one:
2) Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist?
The silencing is a big deal. Most don’t fight back, and even for those who talk, it is very common for women to get court ordered to shut up. The notion that a woman might falsely accuse a man is something that is societally much more upsetting than the notion that she might be telling the truth and he might be getting away with it, and societally most people just want to avoid thinking about these topics and don’t feel personal responsibility to investigate what is actually true.
Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist?
I wonder if anyone else thinks that calling a non-violent sexual encounter with a person who is too intoxicated to properly consent a “rape” is a non-central fallacy?
When I think of rape, the images I get is a stalker in a dark alley, a lot of violence, lasting physical and/or emotional damage to the victim, etc. Or maybe someone using a date rape drug on you. Or maybe an abusive boyfriend or a husband using violence and intimidation to get sex from an unwilling partner. Bad things like that.
The image I don’t get is a girl knowingly having too much too drink in a sexually charged setting and then someone not properly obtaining consent, so she later has misgivings about the whole thing. Or, to a ridiculous degree, the Julian Assange case. To be sure, the “taking advantage of impaired faculties” case is still clearly a bad thing and ought to be punished, but it is also clearly (to me) not in the same class as a violent sexual assault, in terms of consequences for the victim.
Agreed that there are many different shades of grey here both in severity and how the cases should be treated. That is a good point.
Generally, if a guy intentionally has sex with a woman who is too intoxicated to stop him, he does not suffer any negative consequence at all. I don’t think these sorts of cases are often brought to court—way too much ambiguity to prove anything.
It would be interesting to get more data about the different ways in which this plays out. My guess is that as you imply, there are cases where women intentionally lose their ability to say no. My guess is that also, there are many cases where guys capitalize on this ambiguity with quite a lot of intention.
More plus points in my book toward a cultural shift to where saying yes before sex is the norm. If there are such groups, I’d rather have women who want to be manipulated into sex lose their ability to have this happen than to have someone be forced into a physical act against their will.
Generally, if a guy intentionally has sex with a woman who is too intoxicated to stop him, he does not suffer any negative consequence at all. I don’t think these sorts of cases are often brought to court—way too much ambiguity to prove anything.
This is plausible. According to wikipedia, about 8% of all rape allegation are later deemed false. I did not see any stats on false positives (where an alleged rapist was prosecuted while being innocent). What is obvious from a cursory online search is that the consequences for falsely accused and convicted tend to be as bad as or worse than for real survivers of violent rape.
But this was not my point, I simply asked if what is being discussed as “rape” here is a non-central case.
Okay, thanks for persisting on your point—please let me know if I appropriately address it, I think I understand now but am not entirely certain.
I think that there are many types of rape. Many many ways in which it happens, and differences in motives and premeditation and other such things.
My understanding is that using alcohol or other drugs as an aid to rape a woman is far more common than what you described as your expectation. While I do not place confidence behind these numbers as there is very little actual data, my best guess is maybe something like there is a 10:1 of rapes where alcohol is used with someone the woman knows v.s. a man jumping out and attacking her from behind a bush.
My understanding is that most rapes are from men that the woman knows, often family members and/or family friends, although I am even less sure about the percentages on that and won’t bother trying to make a numeric guess.
So, if alcohol with someone the woman knows is actually one of the more frequent scenarios, then I would say that the non-central case does not apply if I understand it correctly?
What you are pointing to is an important problem and an element in why this is so damn complex. I do think that cases that are not extremely horrendous happen. Unfortunately, the actual horrendous ones easily get dismissed because of this.
Also, it is very traumatic for most people to have someone stick something inside of you against your will. So even if we suppose it was fairly innocent on the guy’s side of the fence, that can have severe emotional consequences. Often the most traumatic thing for a lot of people who are violated is just to have their experience be completely invalidated by their friends and family.
Social ignorance propagates this particular cycle. The difficulty of and lack of interest in discussing these topics by a lot of the population propagates it.
False accusations would probably get debunked more as well as true ones being brought to justice with far fewer incidents of occurrence if as a society people really tried to find out what was true with this difficult and complex issue.
I would decide on whether a scenario is central or not based on the expected punishment.
Let’s suppose, hypothetically, that there were no violent cases ever, that all rape cases were of the 90% variety you describe: a victim in a potentially sexually suggestive setting like a bar gets too much to drink, possibly due to some generous verbal coercion by the perpetrator, who is, rather overtly, looking for a sexual encounter. No illicit drugs were slipped in, though the lady probably overestimated her drinking capacity. She was severely impaired, but not drunk unconscious and unmoving, she was not gang-raped with pictures posted online and further bullying or blackmail followed, etc. She was not at a higher risk of pregnancy or an STD compared to if she consented. She would not have consented if she had the capacity to.
Does this describe what you think is the prevalent situation? If so, this would be a central case in that hypothetical case of what would be generally understood as “rape”. Would it be punished by hard time and a ruinous life-long sex offender label? Or would an educational campaign of the sort you are describing, “only yes means yes” be a more appropriate way to deal with this case, with significant legal repercussions for the offender, but not nearly as severe as for a premeditated violent physical sexual assault?
What you describe is not what I think the prevalent situation is.
When men answer yes to the question:
“Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist?”
They are not specifying whether or not force was used.
They are not specifying whether or not the victim was drunk to the point of being unable to move.
They are not specifying whether the victim actively and forcefully said no and tried to push them away or if they just mumbled no, or did not say anything.
They are not specifying whether they slipped anything additional into the woman’s drink or not
They are not specifying whether the encounter with the woman getting drunk was something that happened by accident or if they went through significant lengths to persuade her.
They are not specifying whether or not protection was used—my impression is that it almost never is during rape.
Given the way that the question is phrased, my guess is that in the cases of men answering yes to this question, most men answering believe that the woman actually did not want to have sex when he proceeded to penetrate her, and chose to do it anyway. Beyond that, I have little data.
Given so many unknowns, it’s hard to tell from this study alone what the spectrum of non-consensual sex was, and so it’s hard to draw any useful conclusions. It is quite possible that the blog post author is correct and there is a minority of recidivists who account for the large chunk of non-consensual sex acts. Regardless, the explicit consent approach is certainly an excellent idea, as well as working on changing the cultural norms to make it more acceptable for women to initiate the expression of interest.
the amount of non-consensual sex attempts and successes reported in the study, which I found surprisingly and disturbingly high, is likely accurate or under-reported—I’m very surprised that so many guys answered yes, and would think that given our culture, its more likely that more thought yes but did not mark it than that they gave false positives.
the offenders are mostly repeat offenders, who are having or attempting to have non-consensual sex with about a half dozen women per guy. That seems meaningful to me! It means that the behavior is indeed intentional among this group.
if you read the whole article, they talk about how they interviewed the guys and some of what they learned from that, and their findings with the interviews were consistent with the check boxes.
Thanks for expressing agreement on the explicit consent. Its the thing that makes the most sense to me as to something that is likely to improve the situation at this point in time, when we still know so little and have such a hard time dialoging about this in an open manner as a society.
It means that the behavior is indeed intentional among this group.
Now, I am currently reviewing reflexes like this to see if they are actually good, so I’m not going to endorse this statement as true or useful or even relevant. But this was my immediate reaction to your statement:
Humans are uniquely good at concluding the Bad Guys are evil mutants. We demonize, exaggerate, caricature. In almost every instance—possibly every instance that does not concern a specific individual with an identifiable neurological difference—it is factually wrong. This instinctive reaction serves not as an epistemic tool—“He’s a pedophile/nazi/liberal/fundie, now we know he’s a demon in a fleshuit! Fire at will.”—bt as a political rallying cry. In short, this is something a rationalist should probably never say. If you find yourself claiming your enemies are innately evil, you have gone wrong. Retrace your footsteps and try to find where.
Normally this would be a tad more diplomatic and probabilistic, but that stage in my thought process has been replace with noticing the reflex, so...
On my end, I am trying very hard to avoid making the mistake you are describing, despite that this is a very emotionally salient topic for me.
Because this topic is so emotionally salient for so many people, it is almost never discussed in an even manner. I have been very pleased with the comments on this post for so many people making nuanced points on a topic that would normally get shut down very quickly in a manner similar to what you describe in a context such as this where there is not a more uniform perspective among the discussion participants.
I notice that after the first few most recent of her comments, which have not yet received any votes either way, almost all the rest of the first page of her comments have received exactly one downvote, but varying numbers of upvotes. I suspect the downvotes are all due to one person, who has decided to object to whatever she posts. Perhaps the same person who has been downvoting everything that ialdabaoth posts.
In addition to whatever other voting is going on, my guess is that there is either one person doing this with multiple accounts, or several who have been going down the line and down voting the majority of my comments.
During the day that I was watching the patterns frequently, my karma would stay relatively stable with slow fluctuations most of the time, and the maybe around 5 times would quickly drop 10-20 or so points. I haven’t been writing much lately and am pretty sure I was at 0 for monthly karma before this post, so my current score reflects specifically these ups and downs. For anyone who wants to do math, he post was on main for about half a day before it was moved, and I believe it was at −2 when it was transferred. (up from hovering around −4 most of the day)
Speaking of the math, would you mind giving the formula you used to calculate the range of +/-’s?
Speaking of the math, would you mind giving the formula you used to calculate the range of +/-’s?
Here’s the MATLAB code I wrote, although for looking at your recent posts, the numbers were small enough that it wasn’t necessary to run this, e.g. +1 and 67% has to be +2-1.
For those who know programming but not MATLAB, the code should mostly be clear. The line “a = (ceil(a2):floor(a1))’;” sets a to a column vector of every integer between the two bounds, and all subsequent lines are operations on entire vectors at once. “[b,a,a+b]” is a matrix of three columns: b, a, and a+b.
function v = lwvotes( net, frac )
%v = lwvotes( net, frac )
% Calculate votes for and against, given upvotes as both
% net difference and fraction positive. frac can be expressed
% as a proportion or a percentage.
if frac > 1
frac = frac/100;
end
neg = net < 0;
if neg
net = -net;
frac = 1-frac;
end
frac1 = frac-0.005;
frac2 = frac+0.005;
a1 = net/(2-1/frac1);
a2 = net/(2-1/frac2);
a = (ceil(a2):floor(a1))';
b = a-net;
if neg
v = [b,a,a+b];
else
v = [a,b,a+b];
end
end
I just re-read this and realized the important information I completely glossed over, and that this totally changes my analysis.
That said, I recall thinking that the comments had gone up and down many times when showing 50%, and that perhaps either it was a case that numbers were just more even since they were smaller, or that the calculation was done differently with the comments than the post. I don’t feel up for doing the math to check this with so many comments, but if I had infinite time and energy it would be interesting.
Re: appropriate thing to do as punishment/response—I would really like to have a lot more data before having to come up with an answer to that which would actually be implemented.
I am a proponent of a healthy and prospering society, and do not value making people feel bad for bad things they have done. So ideally I would want a solution that would heal all parties involved. The possibility space in terms of social context is too large to give a meaningful answer regarding what to do in a situation where I was given the choice.
My understanding is that using alcohol or other drugs as an aid to rape a woman is far more common than what you described as your expectation.
What do you mean by “using alcohol or other drugs as an aid to rape”? Do you mean the woman is tricked and/or forced to take the drug against her will, or that the woman voluntarily takes the drug and then does something she wouldn’t if she were sober? Because these are are very different situations and I would argue only the first constitutes rape.
Your logic implies that if a woman chooses to drink, she is volunteering to have sex with any man present and should not complain if a man chooses to take her up on this offer. Is this what you believe?
No, what I’m saying is that if a woman chooses to drink she is responsible for her actions while drunk as she would be while sober. This is the same standard society applies to drunk drivers and the same standard you seek to apply to men who get drunk.
Okay, I can see where the confusion came in since the context I was assuming is pretty far back in the thread. Here it is again. Men answering yes to the question:
“Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances (e.g., removing their clothes)?”
If a woman and a man have sex in this situation, where the man believes that she doesn’t want to but proceeds, and the woman is unable to stop him for the reason of being intoxicated despite that it is apparent to the man that she does not wish to proceed, what are your thoughts on this situation?
To reflect the way in which the question is asked, the assumption I would like to make is that the man believes that the woman does not want to have sex with him at the point in time when he has sexual intercourse with her.
Do you have a link to the exact survey? If another survey question was “have you ever raped a woman?” I could imagine my interpretation seeming like the obvious one.
The exact questions they used were in the article linked in the post body. There were four different ones, the one of which I’m asking about is #2. My understanding is that someone could check as many or few of the four questions as they wanted, and that several checked the box for #2. The word rape was not used in any question.
But still, if I take your wallet when you’re too drunk to even notice, I’ve still stolen it, rather than being given it as a present. Given the wording of the question in that survey, I guess the respondents were thinking of a situation more analogous to the former than to the latter.
OTOH, there are certain people who argue for the analogous of arguing that accepting a present from you would constitute theft if you were drunk, which unfortunately can lead to confusion as to what a particular person mean when talking about such stuff.
I wonder if anyone else thinks that calling a non-violent sexual encounter with a person who is too intoxicated to properly consent a “rape” is a non-central fallacy?
This is a pretty valid point—as I mentioned earlier, there are multiple ways that consent can be violated, and lumping them all under the rubrick of “rape” makes it very difficult to discuss their causal makeup, or their actual utilitarian impact.
I wish I knew of more such data that was well compiled.
Keep in mind, that if a woman reports about a high status man raping her, he will immediately take action to silence the report and will typically have much more power to do so than she will have to get the word out.
Especially since rape tends to go together with alcohol, its hard to make a powerful and persuasive argument. “I got drunk and he had sex with me against my consent” does not hold up well in court. The woman gets accused of not being in control and “defaming” the guy, and and is quickly silenced, typically without investigation regarding the accuracy of her claim.
That’s part of why the study of rape self report that I quoted is so beautiful—its the first I’ve seen of uncontested accounts of rape, and a set of guys actually admitting that they used alcohol intentionally for the purpose of being able to have sex with a woman even if she protests.
That would be the ideal hard-data to collect. Right now my conjectures are still at the “stuff I’ve noticed repeatedly” phase, as opposed to the “backed up by repeated peer-reviewed studies” phase.
Thanks for the information, I appreciate more statistics on it.
Lately I’ve been calling for a right-wing neovictorian form of feminism. The party culture that I witnessed at college seemed designed to put women in a compromising position: black out drunk, scantily clad, in a fraternity house. The sole attempt at sexual assault prevention is shaming sober males. Questioning the whole culture is never done, since “sexual liberation” is also part of feminism. But it really doesn’t seem in women’s interest.
I read a rape confession thread on reddit once and I was struck by how most of the men deeply regretted their actions and how some had even had their lives destroyed by it. Many of them got into bed drunk and horny with a woman in the same state before she withdrew consent. Few were without remorse.
Following up on your article, I think we should tell girls that 2/3rds of women are raped while they are intoxicated. But feminists would never stand for it. They believe that they have the right to make themselves drunk and vulnerable without being raped. And of course they do—but rights are flimsy things when you’re counting on them for protection.
I also have the right to leave an iPad out on my carseat in downtown SF without having my car broken into. But I don’t insist on my right the way feminists do.
Thanks for sharing this, that is an interesting data point.
A question that immediately pops to mind which cannot be answered with current information as I know it, is are these men who confessed representative of the majority of men who rape, or one subset? For example, in the study cited, while most rapes were done by repeat rapists, there were still many who did only do it once—this scenario seems most likely to me coming from that population.
On the other hand, I’ve been a domestic violence counselor, and I know “the cycle of violence,” where an apologetic phase is part of a cycle that happens over and over. http://www.domesticviolence.org/cycle-of-violence/. From my training, we were told that men who do this almost never change, and that while they will go through this phase of remorse, that counseling almost never works to get them to stop cycling back to the behavior considered abusive. I don’t know if any advancements have been made on that front since my training, which was several years ago. So anyway, if the cycle of violence which goes on in domestic violence between couples applies to the repeat rapists, then it would make sense that they would express remorse.
Making a separate reply so you get an orange envelope. I just reread this, and it isn’t really conducive to summarization. I’d read the whole thing, it’s worth it. It’s what got me to really start noticing subtle rationalizations and subtle avoidant behaviors in myself and others.
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/06/amy_schumer_offers_you_a_look.html
Placeholder, cant post efficiently from phone. A fascinating foray into the apology phase by The Last Psychiatrist, I’ll post a link and summary later when able.
Check out the article I linked—it is very insightful. I would agree with what you are saying if most rapes were single instances. However, most rapes are committed by a very small percentage of guys, who on average rape or attempt to rape half a dozen women each. That it is the same guys doing it repeatedly implies that it is not a mistake.
nod one problem that occurs, though, is that the ‘false positive’ problem can be REALLY nasty for the people who DON’T fit the actual behavioral pattern, but who wind up in a situation or have an aspect of their personality that trips the sensors anyways.
It is true that the vast majority of rapes are committed by a small group of high-status predators who have a very effective schtick which is supported by our culture, and a smaller minority of rapes are committed as blatant predatory acts by low-status desperados, and an even SMALLER minority of rapes are actually committed due to a non-deliberate breakdown of communication by median-to-low status schlubs.
The thing is, the high-status predators are VERY GOOD at using culture to hide their predations, and to shift blame onto the desperados. This is why “stranger danger” is so much more engrained in the narrative than the actual statistics should bear out. And as the feminist community begins recognizing how rare the desperado is and shifting their focus to the predator, note that the next trick in the predator’s arsenal is to shift focus onto the schlub.
Schlub-shaming (i.e., constructing a narrative about Nice Guys and focussing more on Nice Guy shaming than you do on fighting frat boy dickishness) helps support the predators. The schlubs need education, not shaming. I’ve seen far too many social networks where the fight is between the schlubs and the feminists, because the predators are REALLY GOOD at telling the schlubs that the feminists are out to get them, and egging the schlubs into making themselves obvious targets (i.e.: the PUA community).
Instead of treating the schlubs as “easy targets” to vent their rage against the socially untouchable predators, a lot of positive gain could be made if the feminist community instead explained to the schlubs that the main thing keeping them from getting laid is the predators running around making the entire environment too dangerous and hostile, and hiding behind the schlubs to do it. (EDIT: I acknowledge that this will be hard to do in practice, because the predators are so much higher-status and more powerful than the schlubs, and our social instincts say to always attack the socially weakest targets.)
Does this make sense?
Yes, thanks for the insights. I posted something on Facebook related to this awhile back which was a precursor to thoughts above. As discussed in the comments, I completely agree with you that there are male victims of false rape accusations as well as victims of rape, and I would really love to see a system that does not harm one group of innocents as a way to protect another.
Well, I think part of that is a higher reliance on personal responsibility—i.e., prevention techniques need to be discussed without an accusation of “victim blaming”.
This can be done better if the culture’s default attitude isn’t victim-blaming, of course, so now the whole damn thing looks fractal.
To make the recursion explicit: most men who try to offer advice on how not to get raped are not intending to blame the victim, but a certain subset of men are very good at creating an environment of victim-blaming that causes legitimate advice to get swallowed in the ‘victim-blaming’ filter. (These tend to be the same kinds of men who rape.) The biggest problem is that they have a VERY successful game rigged—the behaviors that enable their raping and shaming are all seen as high-status behaviors. If we want to build a new system, the first thing we need to do is to stop worshipping men as success-objects, in the same way that we reduce women to sex-objects.
A properly ‘feminist’ approach would reject the whole masculine idea of adversarial dominance-hierarchies—at core, “victim-blaming” relies on the underlying assumption that there’s always a Right Argument/Perspective and a Wrong Argument/Perspective and they fight like little soldiers.
A LOT of work needs to be done on all sides, to learn to respect narratives and come to understanding rather than play out dominance games with people’s lived experiences.
(That is not to say that there aren’t “more right” and “less wrong” perspectives to have! Just that trying to educate people that there are better perspectives adversarially is a really dumb way of going about it, and we should stop.)
Yup. As you say, this takes very careful thought. As the article linked above describes, those who enjoy partaking in predatory acts are not easy to identify, most likely have the average distribution and range of IQ including very smart ones, and are integrated into society. Some of them are also very personally interested in these topics and influencing policy. That makes changing policy well especially difficult—you have to really consider what is being said and not take anything at face value in public discussion about rape and other such topics. I’m glad that there is a growing movement working on these problems.
One quick objection here: I think we absolutely have to take everything that is said at face value, AND ALSO examine the underlying subtext. This is part of what makes it so tricky.
Example: When someone says “but I respect women!”, take that at face value, and assume that they actually DO have a legitimate desire to respect women; they are just confused as to how. Use that to adjust your tactic when dealing with this person, and frame your debate with them in terms of “this is how to show your respect; the way you’re doing it now isn’t working” rather than “you are bad and you don’t actually respect women at all”. If you take that at face value and they don’t act in accordance with it, of course, call them on it.
Example: When someone says, “but she was asking for it!”, take that at face value, and assume that in their warped narrative they actually DO believe that consent was given, if not implied. Use that to adjust your tactic when dealing with this person, and frame your debate with them in terms of “this is why consent needs to be enthusiastic, and these are the failure modes of your approach” rather than “you are a filthy rapist!”. If you take that at face value and they don’t act in accordance with it, of course, call them on it.
Example: When someone says, “bros before hoes”, take that at face value, and assume that they are explicitly identifying who they wish to ally with. Use that to focus your hostility here, at the root of the issue, rather than attacking the epiphenomena “but she was asking for it!” and “but I respect women!” Because in the first two cases, taking them at face value (at least at first) gives you an opportunity to identify potential allies who are stuck behind enemy lines, AND gives you an opportunity to call people out on their bullshit far better than going in guns blazing.
That’s… about as much insight as I have, and it’s of course subject to all the usual disclaimers; we’re all stuck in this together and we’re all seeing it from different perspectives.
Fair point, thanks.
The notion that “the PUA community” has anything predatory about it is a persistent misconception. On the contrary, widespread adoption of the kind of sexual scripts PUA has pioneered is the only way I can see of making enthusiastic consent into a sustainable social norm. Otherwise males will gradually erode the norm as a way of asserting/signaling dominance in a cheap, straightforward way—and many women might go along with the erosion for the most part, simply due to being attracted to a dominant attitude. Note that aspiring PUAs would not do this, because they have superior alternatives. (It would also be a huge strategic liability, when one considers the way PUA works overall)
PUAs do teach aggressive touch escalation, less talking more body language. Don’t ask to kiss her, kiss her. That kind of thing.
An important part of PUA teaching is getting over feelings of guilt for your sexual feelings, which alphas and guys that are confident with women don’t display.
To the extent that this happens, it is an efficient adaptation to prevailing norms: the escalation is not “spontaneous” at all—although that’s obviously a desired effect—but is carefully calibrated to minimize ‘regret’ (to the extent that this is possible based on prevailing signals). PUA also teaches other techniques that balance out active escalation (“push-pull”, “freeze-out”). We’re talking about a very broad toolkit which can adapt to a variety of scenarios.
Non-verbal communication is still communication.
I do agree that on net, guys into PUA are decent well meaning human beings. When I think about it from “what would I do if I were a predator” perspective, I do get the answer that learning from and trying to influence the PUA community would be a fabulous idea with many potential upsides.
I would guess that unless there is a lot of active effort to keep guys who enjoy partaking in predatory behavior out, if we assume that such men exist, I would think that there would be some active ones in the PUA community.
Sure. If 6% of men are rapists in the general population, then I would expect 6% of PUA men to be rapists too, unless there was something actively selecting for or against rapists in the PUA set. That’s just the base rate; it’s no different from expecting 6% of men named “John” to be rapists.
I’m not sure that the serial rapists are high-status. I get the impression that they’re mostly medium status (typical for the bars they frequent).
The lower-end ones are, but those are the ones that tend to get caught. The recent Steubenville case seems more common to me—people who are protected at every step, who are at the pinnacle of their social group, and who are taught over and over that they are untouchable and can do no wrong.
In a certain sense, we are looking at a Pareto power distribution, due to a combination of mechanisms—at higher levels of social power, you both have more opportunity and access, and more immunity to prosecution and even suspicion.
Remember, most rapes go unreported. Similarly, many rapists go uncaught their entire lives. The demographics may seem skewed low due to the fact that higher-status rapists are far less likely to get reported against or noticed as suspects, let alone caught and convicted.
Did you accidentally reverse something there?
Thank you! corrected.
Second thought here: has anyone read enough accounts by women who’ve been raped to have at least a preliminary opinion about whether rapists tend to be high status?
There is some data that I think would be interesting - the study above listed 4 different categories that they asked guys to self report for that are rape without using the “r” word. I’d love to know how many answered yes to this particular one:
2) Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist?
The silencing is a big deal. Most don’t fight back, and even for those who talk, it is very common for women to get court ordered to shut up. The notion that a woman might falsely accuse a man is something that is societally much more upsetting than the notion that she might be telling the truth and he might be getting away with it, and societally most people just want to avoid thinking about these topics and don’t feel personal responsibility to investigate what is actually true.
trigger warning: rape discussion
I wonder if anyone else thinks that calling a non-violent sexual encounter with a person who is too intoxicated to properly consent a “rape” is a non-central fallacy?
When I think of rape, the images I get is a stalker in a dark alley, a lot of violence, lasting physical and/or emotional damage to the victim, etc. Or maybe someone using a date rape drug on you. Or maybe an abusive boyfriend or a husband using violence and intimidation to get sex from an unwilling partner. Bad things like that.
The image I don’t get is a girl knowingly having too much too drink in a sexually charged setting and then someone not properly obtaining consent, so she later has misgivings about the whole thing. Or, to a ridiculous degree, the Julian Assange case. To be sure, the “taking advantage of impaired faculties” case is still clearly a bad thing and ought to be punished, but it is also clearly (to me) not in the same class as a violent sexual assault, in terms of consequences for the victim.
Agreed that there are many different shades of grey here both in severity and how the cases should be treated. That is a good point.
Generally, if a guy intentionally has sex with a woman who is too intoxicated to stop him, he does not suffer any negative consequence at all. I don’t think these sorts of cases are often brought to court—way too much ambiguity to prove anything.
It would be interesting to get more data about the different ways in which this plays out. My guess is that as you imply, there are cases where women intentionally lose their ability to say no. My guess is that also, there are many cases where guys capitalize on this ambiguity with quite a lot of intention.
More plus points in my book toward a cultural shift to where saying yes before sex is the norm. If there are such groups, I’d rather have women who want to be manipulated into sex lose their ability to have this happen than to have someone be forced into a physical act against their will.
This is plausible. According to wikipedia, about 8% of all rape allegation are later deemed false. I did not see any stats on false positives (where an alleged rapist was prosecuted while being innocent). What is obvious from a cursory online search is that the consequences for falsely accused and convicted tend to be as bad as or worse than for real survivers of violent rape.
But this was not my point, I simply asked if what is being discussed as “rape” here is a non-central case.
Okay, thanks for persisting on your point—please let me know if I appropriately address it, I think I understand now but am not entirely certain.
I think that there are many types of rape. Many many ways in which it happens, and differences in motives and premeditation and other such things.
My understanding is that using alcohol or other drugs as an aid to rape a woman is far more common than what you described as your expectation. While I do not place confidence behind these numbers as there is very little actual data, my best guess is maybe something like there is a 10:1 of rapes where alcohol is used with someone the woman knows v.s. a man jumping out and attacking her from behind a bush.
My understanding is that most rapes are from men that the woman knows, often family members and/or family friends, although I am even less sure about the percentages on that and won’t bother trying to make a numeric guess.
So, if alcohol with someone the woman knows is actually one of the more frequent scenarios, then I would say that the non-central case does not apply if I understand it correctly?
What you are pointing to is an important problem and an element in why this is so damn complex. I do think that cases that are not extremely horrendous happen. Unfortunately, the actual horrendous ones easily get dismissed because of this.
Also, it is very traumatic for most people to have someone stick something inside of you against your will. So even if we suppose it was fairly innocent on the guy’s side of the fence, that can have severe emotional consequences. Often the most traumatic thing for a lot of people who are violated is just to have their experience be completely invalidated by their friends and family.
Social ignorance propagates this particular cycle. The difficulty of and lack of interest in discussing these topics by a lot of the population propagates it.
False accusations would probably get debunked more as well as true ones being brought to justice with far fewer incidents of occurrence if as a society people really tried to find out what was true with this difficult and complex issue.
I would decide on whether a scenario is central or not based on the expected punishment.
Let’s suppose, hypothetically, that there were no violent cases ever, that all rape cases were of the 90% variety you describe: a victim in a potentially sexually suggestive setting like a bar gets too much to drink, possibly due to some generous verbal coercion by the perpetrator, who is, rather overtly, looking for a sexual encounter. No illicit drugs were slipped in, though the lady probably overestimated her drinking capacity. She was severely impaired, but not drunk unconscious and unmoving, she was not gang-raped with pictures posted online and further bullying or blackmail followed, etc. She was not at a higher risk of pregnancy or an STD compared to if she consented. She would not have consented if she had the capacity to.
Does this describe what you think is the prevalent situation? If so, this would be a central case in that hypothetical case of what would be generally understood as “rape”. Would it be punished by hard time and a ruinous life-long sex offender label? Or would an educational campaign of the sort you are describing, “only yes means yes” be a more appropriate way to deal with this case, with significant legal repercussions for the offender, but not nearly as severe as for a premeditated violent physical sexual assault?
What you describe is not what I think the prevalent situation is.
When men answer yes to the question:
“Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist?”
They are not specifying whether or not force was used.
They are not specifying whether or not the victim was drunk to the point of being unable to move.
They are not specifying whether the victim actively and forcefully said no and tried to push them away or if they just mumbled no, or did not say anything.
They are not specifying whether they slipped anything additional into the woman’s drink or not
They are not specifying whether the encounter with the woman getting drunk was something that happened by accident or if they went through significant lengths to persuade her.
They are not specifying whether or not protection was used—my impression is that it almost never is during rape.
Given the way that the question is phrased, my guess is that in the cases of men answering yes to this question, most men answering believe that the woman actually did not want to have sex when he proceeded to penetrate her, and chose to do it anyway. Beyond that, I have little data.
Given so many unknowns, it’s hard to tell from this study alone what the spectrum of non-consensual sex was, and so it’s hard to draw any useful conclusions. It is quite possible that the blog post author is correct and there is a minority of recidivists who account for the large chunk of non-consensual sex acts. Regardless, the explicit consent approach is certainly an excellent idea, as well as working on changing the cultural norms to make it more acceptable for women to initiate the expression of interest.
I draw the conclusions:
the amount of non-consensual sex attempts and successes reported in the study, which I found surprisingly and disturbingly high, is likely accurate or under-reported—I’m very surprised that so many guys answered yes, and would think that given our culture, its more likely that more thought yes but did not mark it than that they gave false positives.
the offenders are mostly repeat offenders, who are having or attempting to have non-consensual sex with about a half dozen women per guy. That seems meaningful to me! It means that the behavior is indeed intentional among this group.
if you read the whole article, they talk about how they interviewed the guys and some of what they learned from that, and their findings with the interviews were consistent with the check boxes.
Thanks for expressing agreement on the explicit consent. Its the thing that makes the most sense to me as to something that is likely to improve the situation at this point in time, when we still know so little and have such a hard time dialoging about this in an open manner as a society.
Now, I am currently reviewing reflexes like this to see if they are actually good, so I’m not going to endorse this statement as true or useful or even relevant. But this was my immediate reaction to your statement:
Humans are uniquely good at concluding the Bad Guys are evil mutants. We demonize, exaggerate, caricature. In almost every instance—possibly every instance that does not concern a specific individual with an identifiable neurological difference—it is factually wrong. This instinctive reaction serves not as an epistemic tool—“He’s a pedophile/nazi/liberal/fundie, now we know he’s a demon in a fleshuit! Fire at will.”—bt as a political rallying cry. In short, this is something a rationalist should probably never say. If you find yourself claiming your enemies are innately evil, you have gone wrong. Retrace your footsteps and try to find where.
Normally this would be a tad more diplomatic and probabilistic, but that stage in my thought process has been replace with noticing the reflex, so...
Note that I did not use the words good or bad. I used the word intentional.
What caused you to think I was needing this advice?
[edit]
Okay, I see that you say the statement might not be relevant, and that it is your reflex.
On my end, I am trying very hard to avoid making the mistake you are describing, despite that this is a very emotionally salient topic for me.
Because this topic is so emotionally salient for so many people, it is almost never discussed in an even manner. I have been very pleased with the comments on this post for so many people making nuanced points on a topic that would normally get shut down very quickly in a manner similar to what you describe in a context such as this where there is not a more uniform perspective among the discussion participants.
Could the person who voted down the parent comment please explain their reasoning? I am genuinely curious.
I notice that after the first few most recent of her comments, which have not yet received any votes either way, almost all the rest of the first page of her comments have received exactly one downvote, but varying numbers of upvotes. I suspect the downvotes are all due to one person, who has decided to object to whatever she posts. Perhaps the same person who has been downvoting everything that ialdabaoth posts.
In addition to whatever other voting is going on, my guess is that there is either one person doing this with multiple accounts, or several who have been going down the line and down voting the majority of my comments.
During the day that I was watching the patterns frequently, my karma would stay relatively stable with slow fluctuations most of the time, and the maybe around 5 times would quickly drop 10-20 or so points. I haven’t been writing much lately and am pretty sure I was at 0 for monthly karma before this post, so my current score reflects specifically these ups and downs. For anyone who wants to do math, he post was on main for about half a day before it was moved, and I believe it was at −2 when it was transferred. (up from hovering around −4 most of the day)
Speaking of the math, would you mind giving the formula you used to calculate the range of +/-’s?
Here’s the MATLAB code I wrote, although for looking at your recent posts, the numbers were small enough that it wasn’t necessary to run this, e.g. +1 and 67% has to be +2-1.
For those who know programming but not MATLAB, the code should mostly be clear. The line “a = (ceil(a2):floor(a1))’;” sets a to a column vector of every integer between the two bounds, and all subsequent lines are operations on entire vectors at once. “[b,a,a+b]” is a matrix of three columns: b, a, and a+b.
I just re-read this and realized the important information I completely glossed over, and that this totally changes my analysis.
That said, I recall thinking that the comments had gone up and down many times when showing 50%, and that perhaps either it was a case that numbers were just more even since they were smaller, or that the calculation was done differently with the comments than the post. I don’t feel up for doing the math to check this with so many comments, but if I had infinite time and energy it would be interesting.
Re: appropriate thing to do as punishment/response—I would really like to have a lot more data before having to come up with an answer to that which would actually be implemented.
I am a proponent of a healthy and prospering society, and do not value making people feel bad for bad things they have done. So ideally I would want a solution that would heal all parties involved. The possibility space in terms of social context is too large to give a meaningful answer regarding what to do in a situation where I was given the choice.
What do you mean by “using alcohol or other drugs as an aid to rape”? Do you mean the woman is tricked and/or forced to take the drug against her will, or that the woman voluntarily takes the drug and then does something she wouldn’t if she were sober? Because these are are very different situations and I would argue only the first constitutes rape.
Your logic implies that if a woman chooses to drink, she is volunteering to have sex with any man present and should not complain if a man chooses to take her up on this offer. Is this what you believe?
No, what I’m saying is that if a woman chooses to drink she is responsible for her actions while drunk as she would be while sober. This is the same standard society applies to drunk drivers and the same standard you seek to apply to men who get drunk.
Okay, I can see where the confusion came in since the context I was assuming is pretty far back in the thread. Here it is again. Men answering yes to the question:
“Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances (e.g., removing their clothes)?”
If a woman and a man have sex in this situation, where the man believes that she doesn’t want to but proceeds, and the woman is unable to stop him for the reason of being intoxicated despite that it is apparent to the man that she does not wish to proceed, what are your thoughts on this situation?
Do you mean believes she doesn’t want to at the moment, or believes she wouldn’t want to if she were sober?
To reflect the way in which the question is asked, the assumption I would like to make is that the man believes that the woman does not want to have sex with him at the point in time when he has sexual intercourse with her.
Do you have a link to the exact survey? If another survey question was “have you ever raped a woman?” I could imagine my interpretation seeming like the obvious one.
The exact questions they used were in the article linked in the post body. There were four different ones, the one of which I’m asking about is #2. My understanding is that someone could check as many or few of the four questions as they wanted, and that several checked the box for #2. The word rape was not used in any question.
But still, if I take your wallet when you’re too drunk to even notice, I’ve still stolen it, rather than being given it as a present. Given the wording of the question in that survey, I guess the respondents were thinking of a situation more analogous to the former than to the latter.
OTOH, there are certain people who argue for the analogous of arguing that accepting a present from you would constitute theft if you were drunk, which unfortunately can lead to confusion as to what a particular person mean when talking about such stuff.
I agree with that, but see my other reply downthread. Being penetrated while passed out or nearly so hardly counts as “doing something”, IMO.
Yep.
This is a pretty valid point—as I mentioned earlier, there are multiple ways that consent can be violated, and lumping them all under the rubrick of “rape” makes it very difficult to discuss their causal makeup, or their actual utilitarian impact.
I wish I knew of more such data that was well compiled.
Keep in mind, that if a woman reports about a high status man raping her, he will immediately take action to silence the report and will typically have much more power to do so than she will have to get the word out.
Especially since rape tends to go together with alcohol, its hard to make a powerful and persuasive argument. “I got drunk and he had sex with me against my consent” does not hold up well in court. The woman gets accused of not being in control and “defaming” the guy, and and is quickly silenced, typically without investigation regarding the accuracy of her claim.
That’s part of why the study of rape self report that I quoted is so beautiful—its the first I’ve seen of uncontested accounts of rape, and a set of guys actually admitting that they used alcohol intentionally for the purpose of being able to have sex with a woman even if she protests.
That would be the ideal hard-data to collect. Right now my conjectures are still at the “stuff I’ve noticed repeatedly” phase, as opposed to the “backed up by repeated peer-reviewed studies” phase.
Thanks for the information, I appreciate more statistics on it.
Lately I’ve been calling for a right-wing neovictorian form of feminism. The party culture that I witnessed at college seemed designed to put women in a compromising position: black out drunk, scantily clad, in a fraternity house. The sole attempt at sexual assault prevention is shaming sober males. Questioning the whole culture is never done, since “sexual liberation” is also part of feminism. But it really doesn’t seem in women’s interest.
I read a rape confession thread on reddit once and I was struck by how most of the men deeply regretted their actions and how some had even had their lives destroyed by it. Many of them got into bed drunk and horny with a woman in the same state before she withdrew consent. Few were without remorse.
Following up on your article, I think we should tell girls that 2/3rds of women are raped while they are intoxicated. But feminists would never stand for it. They believe that they have the right to make themselves drunk and vulnerable without being raped. And of course they do—but rights are flimsy things when you’re counting on them for protection.
I also have the right to leave an iPad out on my carseat in downtown SF without having my car broken into. But I don’t insist on my right the way feminists do.
Thanks for sharing this, that is an interesting data point.
A question that immediately pops to mind which cannot be answered with current information as I know it, is are these men who confessed representative of the majority of men who rape, or one subset? For example, in the study cited, while most rapes were done by repeat rapists, there were still many who did only do it once—this scenario seems most likely to me coming from that population.
On the other hand, I’ve been a domestic violence counselor, and I know “the cycle of violence,” where an apologetic phase is part of a cycle that happens over and over. http://www.domesticviolence.org/cycle-of-violence/. From my training, we were told that men who do this almost never change, and that while they will go through this phase of remorse, that counseling almost never works to get them to stop cycling back to the behavior considered abusive. I don’t know if any advancements have been made on that front since my training, which was several years ago. So anyway, if the cycle of violence which goes on in domestic violence between couples applies to the repeat rapists, then it would make sense that they would express remorse.
Making a separate reply so you get an orange envelope. I just reread this, and it isn’t really conducive to summarization. I’d read the whole thing, it’s worth it. It’s what got me to really start noticing subtle rationalizations and subtle avoidant behaviors in myself and others. http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/06/amy_schumer_offers_you_a_look.html
Placeholder, cant post efficiently from phone. A fascinating foray into the apology phase by The Last Psychiatrist, I’ll post a link and summary later when able.