someone (juliawise?) mentioned saying grace at the meal, and that strikes me as incredibly unlikely to be something an entirely non-religious person would come up with if given the task of “think of some cool and effective rituals”
I think grace is underrated. As I said, I’m used to silent grace about three breaths long. It gives you fifteen seconds to relax your body, look around at who is gathered, and think “We are about to sit down and eat together. It’s nice to be here.”
As has been extensively pointed out in Eliezer’s writings and elsewhere on this site, you can come up with a reasonable-sounding justification for just about anything; if you start with your bottom line filled in, the rest of the page is easy to write.
Here’s a question. You’re saying that the value of grace at a meal is that it gives you, personally, some time to whatever (relax, look around, think, etc.). You would therefore be perfectly ok with being the only one at the table participating in this silent grace ritual, or being one of only some participants, while the others merrily dug in and proceeded with conversation — yes?
I sometimes do it alone if no one else is doing it, yes. Or two of us may do it if the others in the family don’t want to. But I enjoy it more if we all do it at once. This seems to set off some kind of alarm bell with you, and I’m not sure there’s a good reason it should or shouldn’t set off alarms other than some kind of aesthetic preference.
This seems to set off some kind of alarm bell with you
Indeed it does. Because it’s a short step from there to social pressure on people who wouldn’t otherwise have any interest or motivation whatsoever in participating.
And here’s the thing: it’s a different sort of social pressure than the sort experienced by e.g. someone who doesn’t feel like playing a board game that everyone else at the party is playing, or someone who isn’t hungry when everyone else is deciding whether to go to a restaurant for dinner. It’s not “everyone else is doing it; join in, it’ll be fun!”; it’s not “your abstention is making the situation less convenient for everyone else”; it’s “you’re offending the group by not participating”.
I’m not saying that you apply such social pressure on people, only explaining the reason for the alarm bells.
I like the feeling of doing things together. We can probably both think of evolutionary and neurological reasons why humans enjoy group activities. Ultimately, like I said, I think it boils down to an aesthetic preference that isn’t right or wrong.
I see your point about not letting this become a social pressure on people who don’t want to participate, and I’ll try to be mindful of this.
Yes, at this point I’d have to agree that it’s an aesthetic preference, neither right nor wrong, though I think it’s a preference with potential dangerous consequences, on which point it seems we’ve also come to some sort of agreement. That said, I appreciate that you’ve given my view consideration; some of my comments may have come off as less tactful than I intended, and you and other commenters have been quite patient.
By the way, thank you for the link; as it happens, reading the post and some of the comments has cemented my views on rituals and group bonding. I think this comment by JenniferRM (and her longer comment just downthread) is very insightful and quite appropriate to the current discussion.
ETA: Another data point for the “some people don’t like this sort of thing” claim.
My family has a similar tradition of silence before meals. It provides a moment to relax and change mindset to meal time. It says that this is a time to spend together, and not just another thing to be rushed through. It’s nice if everyone participates, because that provides a pause in conversation and makes it easier to stop and relax.
I think before meals is not that unlikely a time working from a blank slate. There is something powerful about sharing food. It’s a bonding ritual. Using that same time to reflect and relax makes the moment of silence, grace, etc. more effective.
Agreed. As I mentioned at the last meetup, saying grace is a form of negative visualization, which allows you to gain more satisfaction from your meal than you otherwise would. It works by using framing-effects to change your “default” mindset from having the meal to not having it.
I think grace is underrated. As I said, I’m used to silent grace about three breaths long. It gives you fifteen seconds to relax your body, look around at who is gathered, and think “We are about to sit down and eat together. It’s nice to be here.”
As has been extensively pointed out in Eliezer’s writings and elsewhere on this site, you can come up with a reasonable-sounding justification for just about anything; if you start with your bottom line filled in, the rest of the page is easy to write.
Here’s a question. You’re saying that the value of grace at a meal is that it gives you, personally, some time to whatever (relax, look around, think, etc.). You would therefore be perfectly ok with being the only one at the table participating in this silent grace ritual, or being one of only some participants, while the others merrily dug in and proceeded with conversation — yes?
I sometimes do it alone if no one else is doing it, yes. Or two of us may do it if the others in the family don’t want to. But I enjoy it more if we all do it at once. This seems to set off some kind of alarm bell with you, and I’m not sure there’s a good reason it should or shouldn’t set off alarms other than some kind of aesthetic preference.
Would you be able to explain why that is?
Indeed it does. Because it’s a short step from there to social pressure on people who wouldn’t otherwise have any interest or motivation whatsoever in participating.
And here’s the thing: it’s a different sort of social pressure than the sort experienced by e.g. someone who doesn’t feel like playing a board game that everyone else at the party is playing, or someone who isn’t hungry when everyone else is deciding whether to go to a restaurant for dinner. It’s not “everyone else is doing it; join in, it’ll be fun!”; it’s not “your abstention is making the situation less convenient for everyone else”; it’s “you’re offending the group by not participating”.
I’m not saying that you apply such social pressure on people, only explaining the reason for the alarm bells.
I like the feeling of doing things together. We can probably both think of evolutionary and neurological reasons why humans enjoy group activities. Ultimately, like I said, I think it boils down to an aesthetic preference that isn’t right or wrong.
I see your point about not letting this become a social pressure on people who don’t want to participate, and I’ll try to be mindful of this.
Yes, at this point I’d have to agree that it’s an aesthetic preference, neither right nor wrong, though I think it’s a preference with potential dangerous consequences, on which point it seems we’ve also come to some sort of agreement. That said, I appreciate that you’ve given my view consideration; some of my comments may have come off as less tactful than I intended, and you and other commenters have been quite patient.
By the way, thank you for the link; as it happens, reading the post and some of the comments has cemented my views on rituals and group bonding. I think this comment by JenniferRM (and her longer comment just downthread) is very insightful and quite appropriate to the current discussion.
ETA: Another data point for the “some people don’t like this sort of thing” claim.
My family has a similar tradition of silence before meals. It provides a moment to relax and change mindset to meal time. It says that this is a time to spend together, and not just another thing to be rushed through. It’s nice if everyone participates, because that provides a pause in conversation and makes it easier to stop and relax.
I think before meals is not that unlikely a time working from a blank slate. There is something powerful about sharing food. It’s a bonding ritual. Using that same time to reflect and relax makes the moment of silence, grace, etc. more effective.
Agreed. As I mentioned at the last meetup, saying grace is a form of negative visualization, which allows you to gain more satisfaction from your meal than you otherwise would. It works by using framing-effects to change your “default” mindset from having the meal to not having it.