The description and rejection given of dualism are both very weak. Also, dualism is a much broader group of models than is admitted here.
The fact is, we only have direct evidence of the mind, and everything else is just an attempt to explain certain regularities. An inability to imagine that the mind could be all that exists is clearly just a willful denial, and not evidence, but notably, dualism does not require nor even suggest that the mind is all there is, just that it is all we have proof of (even in the cartesian variant). Thus, dualism.
Your personal refusal to imagine that physicalism is false and dualism is true seems completely irrelevant to whether or not dualism is true. Also, dualism hardly ‘defies’ physics. In dualism, physics is simply ‘under’ a meta-physics that includes consciousness as another category, without even changing physics. (If it did defy physics, that would be strong proof against physics since it is literally all of the evidence we actually have, but there is no incompatibility at all.)
Description wise, there are forms of dualism for which you give an incorrect analysis of the ‘teletransporter’ paradox. Obviously, the consciousness interacts with reality in some way, and there is no proof nor reason in dualism to assume that the consciousness could not simply follow the created version in order to keep interacting with the world.
Mind-body wise, the consciousness certainly attaches to the body through the brain to alter the world, assuming the brain and body are real (which the vast majority of dualists believe). Consciousness would certainly alter brain states if brain states are a real thing.
We also don’t know that a consciousness would not attach itself to a ‘Chinese Room’.
Your attempts at reasoning have led you astray in other areas too, but I’m more familiar with the ways in which these critiques of dualism are wrong. You seem extremely confident of this incorrect reasoning as well. This seems more like a motivated defense of illusionism than actually laying out the theories correctly.
With primacy of the direct observation the “conciousness stuff” stands pretty firm but I don’t see why a dualist would be compelled to think that matter would be a fundamental thing. After all its a pattern in experience so why this “pattern” should be promoted to a substance? How would one be able to tell whether matter is the same “conciousness stuff” in a different form? (and why does not this principle lead to split substance matter to radiation and baryonic matter into actually being two separate substances?)
If they didn’t accept physical stuff as being (at least potentially) equal to consciousness they actually wouldn’t be a dualist. Both are considered real things, and though many have less confidence in the physical world, they still believe in it as a separate thing. (Cartesian dualists do have the least faith in the real world, but even they believe you can make real statements about it as a separate thing.) Otherwise, they would be a ‘monist’. The ‘dual’ is in the name for a reason.
interaction → really one connected substance → monism
no interaction → separated islands → triviality
If mind is “all we have proof of” then why believe in the unproofed parts? Is there some kind of “indirect” evidence for matter? Experiences of Azeroth are real but Azeroth is not real. How could we tell whether we have experiences of physics and on top of that physics being real?
In this context “real world” is very loaded as we are arguing which parts are real and which illusory or unreal.
Also, dualism is a much broader group of models than is admitted here.
Yep
dualism hardly ‘defies’ physics. In dualism, physics is simply ‘under’ a meta-physics that includes consciousness as another category, without even changing physic
Well, there are some pretty difficult issues around causal closure, interactionism, and eiphenomenalism.
Interactionism would simply require an extension of physics to include the interaction between the two, which would not defy physics any more than adding the strong nuclear force did. You can hold against it that we do not know how it works, but that’s a weak point because there are many things where we still don’t know how they work.
Epiphenomenalism seems irrelevant to me since it is simply a way you could posit things to be. A normal dualist ignores the idea because there is no reason to posit it. We can obviously see how consciousness has effects on the body, so there simply isn’t a reason to believe it only goes the other way. Additionally, to me, Epiphenomenalism seems clearly false. Dualism as a whole has never said the body can’t have effects on consciousness either.
Causal closure seems unrelated to the actuality of physics. It is simply a statement of philosophical belief. It is one dualists obviously disagree with in the strong version, but that is hardly incompatibility with actual physics. Causal closure is not used to any real effect, and is hard to reconcile with how things seem to actually be. You could argue that causal closure is even denying things like the idea of math, and the idea of physics being things that can meaningfully affect behavior.
Interactionism would simply require an extension of physics to include the interaction between the two, which would not defy physics any more than adding the strong nuclear force did.
It would be a problem if all the existing forces fully explain everything,IE closure.
. A normal dualist ignores the idea because there is no reason to posit it.
If you do have closure , and you don’t have overdetermination, then you get eiphenomenalism whether you want it or not.
Causal closure seems unrelated to the actuality of physics
I partly agree. I don’t see how closure can be proven without proving determinism.
The description and rejection given of dualism are both very weak. Also, dualism is a much broader group of models than is admitted here.
The fact is, we only have direct evidence of the mind, and everything else is just an attempt to explain certain regularities. An inability to imagine that the mind could be all that exists is clearly just a willful denial, and not evidence, but notably, dualism does not require nor even suggest that the mind is all there is, just that it is all we have proof of (even in the cartesian variant). Thus, dualism.
Your personal refusal to imagine that physicalism is false and dualism is true seems completely irrelevant to whether or not dualism is true. Also, dualism hardly ‘defies’ physics. In dualism, physics is simply ‘under’ a meta-physics that includes consciousness as another category, without even changing physics. (If it did defy physics, that would be strong proof against physics since it is literally all of the evidence we actually have, but there is no incompatibility at all.)
Description wise, there are forms of dualism for which you give an incorrect analysis of the ‘teletransporter’ paradox. Obviously, the consciousness interacts with reality in some way, and there is no proof nor reason in dualism to assume that the consciousness could not simply follow the created version in order to keep interacting with the world.
Mind-body wise, the consciousness certainly attaches to the body through the brain to alter the world, assuming the brain and body are real (which the vast majority of dualists believe). Consciousness would certainly alter brain states if brain states are a real thing.
We also don’t know that a consciousness would not attach itself to a ‘Chinese Room’.
Your attempts at reasoning have led you astray in other areas too, but I’m more familiar with the ways in which these critiques of dualism are wrong. You seem extremely confident of this incorrect reasoning as well. This seems more like a motivated defense of illusionism than actually laying out the theories correctly.
With primacy of the direct observation the “conciousness stuff” stands pretty firm but I don’t see why a dualist would be compelled to think that matter would be a fundamental thing. After all its a pattern in experience so why this “pattern” should be promoted to a substance? How would one be able to tell whether matter is the same “conciousness stuff” in a different form? (and why does not this principle lead to split substance matter to radiation and baryonic matter into actually being two separate substances?)
If they didn’t accept physical stuff as being (at least potentially) equal to consciousness they actually wouldn’t be a dualist. Both are considered real things, and though many have less confidence in the physical world, they still believe in it as a separate thing. (Cartesian dualists do have the least faith in the real world, but even they believe you can make real statements about it as a separate thing.) Otherwise, they would be a ‘monist’. The ‘dual’ is in the name for a reason.
To me it seems that
interaction → really one connected substance → monism
no interaction → separated islands → triviality
If mind is “all we have proof of” then why believe in the unproofed parts? Is there some kind of “indirect” evidence for matter? Experiences of Azeroth are real but Azeroth is not real. How could we tell whether we have experiences of physics and on top of that physics being real?
In this context “real world” is very loaded as we are arguing which parts are real and which illusory or unreal.
Yep
Well, there are some pretty difficult issues around causal closure, interactionism, and eiphenomenalism.
Interactionism would simply require an extension of physics to include the interaction between the two, which would not defy physics any more than adding the strong nuclear force did. You can hold against it that we do not know how it works, but that’s a weak point because there are many things where we still don’t know how they work.
Epiphenomenalism seems irrelevant to me since it is simply a way you could posit things to be. A normal dualist ignores the idea because there is no reason to posit it. We can obviously see how consciousness has effects on the body, so there simply isn’t a reason to believe it only goes the other way. Additionally, to me, Epiphenomenalism seems clearly false. Dualism as a whole has never said the body can’t have effects on consciousness either.
Causal closure seems unrelated to the actuality of physics. It is simply a statement of philosophical belief. It is one dualists obviously disagree with in the strong version, but that is hardly incompatibility with actual physics. Causal closure is not used to any real effect, and is hard to reconcile with how things seem to actually be. You could argue that causal closure is even denying things like the idea of math, and the idea of physics being things that can meaningfully affect behavior.
It would be a problem if all the existing forces fully explain everything,IE closure.
If you do have closure , and you don’t have overdetermination, then you get eiphenomenalism whether you want it or not.
I partly agree. I don’t see how closure can be proven without proving determinism.