I have to agree with Morendil below, AFAIK there are only few women contributing here and at the same time there is definitively some concern about increasing this number, I remember that Eliezer wrote one post about this.
You see Alicorn, women are not the only group who is underrepresented, but I don’t see the same concern regarding others.
I see a pattern here as in the real world “women need more fairness” and the end result is often that privileges are granted to them. Your post certainly contributed to that impression. It’s just an impression, maybe I’m seeing it totally through the wrong lenses.
What is wrong with this sentence? What about those here who maybe want to discuss this? Shouldn’t they be entitled to it? So there is more concern about a gender that is underrepresented(people that are not even here) but that could hypothetically contribute more members in the future as for those who are active or passive(lurkers) members in this community and have great interest and could possibly learn a lot from this topic. Alicorn I read your comments on how to make friends and there are similarities to PU.
And for those women/men who don’t want to read about PU why not ignore the respective articles?
Edit: sorry for making my argument so PU centric. It’s just something that was salient to me.
So there is more concern about a gender that is underrepresented(people that are not even here) but that could hypothetically contribute more members in the future as for those who are active or passive(lurkers) members in this community and have great interest and could possibly learn a lot from this topic.
That’s a very interesting point. I suspect it’s because there’s a lot of social pressure to assume that something is wrong if a group contains no or few women, while the lurkers don’t have a political constituency.
I think it would be worthwhile for LW to be a more comfortable place for women, but figuring out how to encourage people who are already interested and would be valuable contributors to post is important even though it doesn’t have obvious signaling value.
And for those women/men who don’t want to read about PU why not ignore the respective articles?
All I can say is that people don’t necessarily work like that. If they don’t have a strong preference for a social group, they aren’t going to ignore things they don’t like.
Also, a common reaction to PUA isn’t “don’t want”, it’s revulsion. There’s a spread effect.
All I can say is that people don’t necessarily work like that. If they don’t have a strong preference for a social group, they aren’t going to ignore things they don’t like.
Also, a common reaction to PUA isn’t “don’t want”, it’s revulsion. There’s a spread effect.
I think roland’s point is that neither of these reactions are terribly appropriate for a community of aspiring rationalists. The conflict between this and the desire for broader appeal is really at the heart of the issue.
Personally I am an ‘elitist prick’, at least in the context of this site. I want to be able to freely discuss things that are not usually discussed because of revulsion reactions. Robin Hanson’s fearless approach to this is what originally drew me to Overcoming Bias. I have plenty of real world friends and acquaintances to discuss safe topics with, the value to me of this site is the ability to discuss things that are not safe topics amongst normal people.
Have you noticed that the people who are remembered as making the most accurate and useful observations about PUA are the same people who didn’t cause the disgust reaction?
Also, remember that every post we promote is another possible first impression. I wouldn’t want to join a community of people, mostly men, describing Women as an undifferentiated mass distinguished by an array of mental flaws to be exploited for personal gain—that’s a sign of some hardcore irrationality, to make claims which are that self-aggrandizing and that easily refuted. (Easily refuted because they are hasty generalizations, I hastily add.)
Edit: I’ll admit that I’m exaggerating the degree of bad rhetoric displayed here during the whole PUA flamewar, but the point about the hasty generalizations shouldn’t be ignored—I know too many people who don’t fit the stereotypes promoted in those discussions to view these stereotypes sympathetically.
I wouldn’t want to join a community of people, mostly men, describing Women as an undifferentiated mass distinguished by an array of mental flaws to be exploited for personal gain—that’s a sign of some hardcore irrationality, to make claims which are that self-aggrandizing and that easily refuted.
I wouldn’t want to join a community that did those things, or which uncritically praised a community that did. Still, I think that even if the seduction community were an undifferentiated mass of irrationality, it would be worth discussing here for the same reasons that we talk about religion and astrology.
Personally, when I see people being successful in a certain domain (or believing that they are successful), yet holding some obviously irrational beliefs, my interest is piqued. If these people are successful, is that despite their irrational beliefs, or could it be because of those beliefs? Could it be that some of the beliefs of PUAs work even though they are not true?
I don’t understand why other rationalists wouldn’t be wondering the same things, even when confronted with the negative aspects of pickup. As I’ve argued in the past here and here, pickup relates to many rationality topics:
Instrumental rationality (how to succeed according to one’s criteria for success)
The availability heuristic (the theories of PUAs are based on the women they most commonly encounter, and the most salient experiences with those women; the opinions of outsiders on the seduction community are also subject to the availability heuristic)
Underdetermination of theory by evidence, and the problem of induction; how much ad hoc support which should allow to a theory about social interaction before we trash it
Self-fulfilling prophecies (to what extent believing certain notions about oneself makes them come true in social interaction; how believing certain PUA theories and acting on them might produce experiences that appear to confirm those theories)
Empiricism (PUAs advocate “field testing” ideas about how to interact with women)
Kuhnian paradigms (the theories of PUAs have gone through several Kuhnian revolutions, and PUAs tend to interpret their experiences within the reigning paradigms in the community)
Lakatos’ notions of progressive vs. degenerative research programs (to what extent do the theories of PUAs allow them to make predictions of novel facts? How progressive is the research program of PUAs?)
Demarcation criterion (some PUAs claim that their teachings are based on “science”… to what extent is pickup scientific?)
Naive realism vs. instrumentalism (many practices of PUAs work, but to what extent are the theories behind them actually true?)
Heuristic and problem-solving with limited information (how do solve the problem of a lack of social knowledge, given only one’s own anecdotal observations and those of others? What theshold of evidence you should accept for a certain piece of advice before you act on it?)
The psychology of influence and persuasion, status, and signalling (revealing biases in how people perceive each other)
Perhaps I’ve been committing the “typical mind fallacy” by assuming that just because these links between pickup and rationality are obvious to me, that they are also obvious to others.
We appear to have a topic that has a lot of connections to rationality, some of which have been discussed here with a lot of approval, judging by upvotes. There are also people who discuss this topic in a non-rigorous way that causes feelings of repugnance in many observers. In my view, the relevance of pickup to rationality and the philosophy of science is so great that we would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to discourage discussion of the topic. The solution is to discuss this topic in a rigorous way, and the connections to rationality made clear. When the topic is discussed in a non-rigorous and repugnance-causing way, the appropriate recourse is the reply button and the downvote button.
I appreciate your list of connections between PUA and rationality, because it’s gotten me closer to working out why I don’t see PUA as having a special connection to rationality.
I think it’s because I find the connections you suggest generic. Most of them, I reckon, would hold for any subculture with a sufficiently active truth-seeking element, such as (picking a few examples out of thin air, so they may not be good examples, but I hope they communicate my point) poker, art valuation, or trading card gaming. Though I’d guess that each of these topics has links to rationality like those you mention, in depth discussion of them on LW would tend to feel off-topic to me.
This doesn’t really relate to the more typical complaints about PUA that I see upthread—i.e. that some of the discussion of it grosses people out, and that it’s inaccurately reductive—but I thought I’d add my two cents to convey my mental context for my last reply.
Thanks for giving additional context. I think you are correct that we have a difference of opinion. Personally, I would be absolutely thrilled to see a discussion on LessWrong of how poker, art valuation, or trading card gaming relate to rationality. Would these subjects not interest you, or is your worry that discussion of them would get too far off-topic to a degree that is bad?
I suppose delving very deep into those subjects could also feel off-topic to me if the connection to rationality was lost, yet I would be comfortable with whatever level of depth people more knowledgeable than me on those subject felt was necessary to elucidate the links to rationality. (And if other people were making truth-claims about the content of those disciplines, and those people often displayed bias or misunderstanding in either a laudatory or critical direction, I would be comfortable seeing those truth-claims evaluated. Even if debate about the merits or nature of a subjects gets away from the direct relationship of that subject to rationality, that debate itself may demonstrate applications of rationality to a controversial subject, which I like to see.)
Your mileage may vary, but I find that I learn in a “hands on” way, and attempting to apply rationality to a practical problem helps me attain a more abstract understanding. See the notion of Contract to Expand, where sometimes solving a specific sub-problem can be helpful for solving a larger, more general problem.
I would consider any subculture or discipline with a “sufficiently active truth-seeking element” to be excellent LessWrong fodder, as long as the discussion (a) was connected to rationality, or (b) addressed the nature of the subcultures and disciplines so that readers can know how they work well enough to evaluate their potential relationship to rationality (particularly if there is disagreement on that nature or relationship). Anyone else have feelings either way?
Would these subjects not interest you, or is your worry that discussion of them would get too far off-topic to a degree that is bad?
The second I think. (I feel about the same for topics in which I have shown interest, so it’s not about my level of interest.)
If I wanted to force a conversation about a particular subculture or hot-button topic not obviously related to rationality, and I were called out on it, I could probably contrive a defensible list of ways my desired subject relates to rationality. For example, I took your list of bullet points for PUA and adapted most of them to race and IQ (a subject I’m more familiar with):
Instrumental rationality (IQ relates to indicators of life success, so one can argue about the degree to which IQ is a measure of instrumental rationality)
The availability heuristic (use of convenience sampling when testing psychological subjects; availability bias as a source of racial stereotypes about IQ)
Underdetermination of theory by evidence, and the problem of induction; how much ad hoc support which should allow to a theory about race differences in IQ before we trash it
Self-fulfilling prophecies (stereotype threat and other situations where a white or black person’s beliefs influence performance on IQ tests; how the social impact of race and IQ theories might perpetuate the IQ gaps those theories try to explain)
Empiricism (psychologists involved in the argument do their best to present themselves as grounded in the facts, and the extent to which they succeed is a possible jumping-off point off discussion)
Kuhnian paradigms (historical shift of the IQ argument from ‘it’s in the genes’ to ‘it’s all the environment’ to an uncomfortable, hedging mixture of the two)
Lakatos’ notions of progressive vs. degenerative research programs (Nuffsaid)
Demarcation criterion (is the argument about race and IQ even a scientific one? Which contributions to it should be considered scientific?)
Naive realism vs. instrumentalism (psychologists’ obsession with defining ‘validity,’ in all its forms, often touches on this)
Heuristic and problem-solving with limited information (this is the kind of thing IQ tests try to test, but to what extent do they successfully do so? Do they do so without bias?)
In spite of the connections to rationality just listed, I’d expect a discussion of race and IQ to flirt with the failure modes of (1) adversarial nitpicking of minutiae and/or (2) arguing about the politics surrounding the topic and not the topic itself. The first time I walked into this argument on Less Wrong, I felt I ended up in the first failure mode. When it came up again in this month’s Open Thread, the poster starting the discussion seemed to want to discuss the politics of it, and I didn’t see the resulting subthread as casting new light on rationality.
I say this even though threads like that do often have people making and evaluating truth-claims; I just don’t count that kind of thing as ‘real’ rationality unless it could plausibly make a rationality lightbulb go off in my head (‘Ooooohhh, I never got Eliezer’s exposition of causal screening before, but this example totally makes it obvious to me’ - stuff like that). I can find intelligent arguments about various subcultures and issues elsewhere on the internet—I expect something else, or maybe something more specific, from LW.
This doesn’t mean I don’t/can’t/won’t learn about rationality in a hands on way—applying what you learn is how you know you’ve learned it. Still, on LW I expect discussions presented as ‘here is a general point about rationality, demonstrated with a few little examples from my pet issue’ to stay on topic more effectively than if they’re presented as ‘here is my pet issue with a side serving of rationality,’ and I expect that whether or not I can draw abstract connections between my pet topic and rationality.
Hmmm. I’ve written a lot here because I don’t feel like I’m adequately communicating what I mean. I suppose what I’m thinking is something like a generalization of ‘Politics is the Mind-Killer’ - even things tangentially related to rationality can mind-kill, so I’m wary about what I label on-topic. Quite likely more wary than whoever’s reading this.
On a side note, I tried profiling (albeit crudely) a thread about a hot topic to find out how well it focused on relevant data and the elements of rationality discussed on LW. I picked this month’s Open Thread’s subthread about race and IQ because it wasn’t very long and I posted in it, so I had some idea how it progressed. On each comment I ticked off whether it
talked about actual evidence about race and/or IQ
made a testable prediction about race and IQ
referred to specific Less Wrongian heuristics or concepts that I recognized, like ‘applause lights’ or ‘privileging the hypothesis’ (I didn’t count generic pro-truth statements like ‘freedom to look for the truth is sacrosanct’)
with the rationale that comments that did any of these were more likely to be rationality-relevant than those that didn’t. (I also tried ticking off which comments were mostly focused on politics and which weren’t, but I couldn’t do that quickly and fairly, so I didn’t bother.) Here’s my data for anyone who wants to check my work.
The subthread has 74 comments: 13 mentioned evidence, 3 made a testable prediction, 10 explicitly made connections to LWish heuristics and catchphrases, and 50 did none of these. Those 50 comments had a mean score of 2.7; the 24 comments that mentioned data/predictions/rationality tropes had a mean score of 2.4.
That suggests that not only were the overtly rationality-ish comments outnumbered, but they scored more poorly. I wouldn’t want to generalize from this quick little survey, but I do wonder whether the same trend would show up in arguments about feminism, PUA, global warming, 9/11, or other subjects that can be controversial here.
Regarding the ratios of comment types have you compared that at all to subthreads about other topics, possibly less controversial ones? Without some idea of the usual level for an equivalent LW conversation about a less controversial topic, it is very hard to evaluate this data.
I’m not sure incidentally that I agree with your breakdown of comments. For example, you include the comment that started off the conversation as in none of the categories. Even just asking a worthwhile question should be worth something. And since this comment was at +17, even just by removing it we already substantially alter the average score of the 50 nones. The score goes from 2.7 to 2.4. This also illustrates another issue which is that if even a single comment can cause that sort of change then it doesn’t seem like this sort of data is statistically significant. Frankly, after realizing that, I’m not that inclined to check the rest of your data since that already puts the two at both 2.4 on average.
The fact that it seems like this comment itself would be put into the none category when I’ve made criticisms of the interpretation of evidence suggests that your break down isn’t great. (Please forgive the mild amount of self-reference.)
Regarding the ratios of comment types have you compared that at all to subthreads about other topics, possibly less controversial ones? Without some idea of the usual level for an equivalent LW conversation about a less controversial topic, it is very hard to evaluate this data.
It would be interesting to see what the patterns would be like in other subthreads. I sampled only the one subthread because I was curious about variation among comments within the single subthread and not variation between subthreads, so I figured one subthread would be enough.
I’m not sure incidentally that I agree with your breakdown of comments.
It’s certainly not perfect! I would have liked to have used a finer and more sensitive breakdown, but it would have become difficult to apply. I tried to invent the simplest breakdown I could think of that wouldn’t need much subjective judgment, and could approximate the types of discussion HughRistik had in mind.
For example, you include the comment that started off the conversation as in none of the categories. Even just asking a worthwhile question should be worth something.
That’s true—my list of categories is conservative, so some well-regarded comments that didn’t discuss data, predictions, or heuristics nonetheless didn’t end up in a category. That said, although my category list wasn’t exhaustive, I did still expect about as many comments to fit a category as there were comments that fitted none—I was genuinely surprised to get a 2⁄3 to 1⁄3 split.
This also illustrates another issue which is that if even a single comment can cause that sort of change then it doesn’t seem like this sort of data is statistically significant.
Fair point. The distribution of comment scores in that subthread is very skewed with a few outliers:
If I drop the four high scorers on the far tail I can recalculate the averages for the ‘nones’ versus the non-‘none’ comments without the influence of those outliers. The 47 remaining nones’ scores have mean 2.0 and the 23 remaining non-nones have a mean score of 1.8; the gap shrinks, but it’s still there.
If I did a statistical test of the difference, it likely would be statistically insignificant (and it’d likely have been insignificant even before dropping the outliers) - but that’s OK, because I don’t mean to generalize from that one subthread’s comments to the population of all comments.
The fact that it seems like this comment itself would be put into the none category when I’ve made criticisms of the interpretation of evidence suggests that your break down isn’t great.
Yes—if I planned to apply the breakdown to other subthreads, I’d add a category for comments that criticize or discuss evidence mentioned by someone else. Fortunately, it shouldn’t make much difference for the particular subthread I picked—I don’t remember any of the comments making detailed criticisms of other people’s evidence.
That is indeed a good question that I don’t know the answer to. Though it has been my impression that some of the ideas in NLP are parasitic on mainstream psychology. For example, “anchoring” seems related to classical conditioning.
I think it is a species of logical rudeness to judge an idea by its worst advocates. I’m sure any atheists who have been reminded that Hitler was an atheist can sympathize.
Neil Strauss (author of The Game) recently made some good points:
When I wrote The Game and went on to do the press, I told myself that I would neither DEFEND nor ATTACK the seduction community. I’d simply present the truth as it was, the good and the bad.
However, the more interviews I did, the more I realized I was going to have to defend something: The right of guys to learn this.
Anyone who’s ever seen the front page of Cosmopolitan or Sex in the City knows that self-help, sexual improvement, dating advice, and attraction skills is an accepted rite of passage for women.
There is no equivalent for men: We are simply shown images of women we are supposed to desire in the pages of Maxim and Playboy, then not told what to do about it.
People get tutored for everything else in life. If you can’t do math, you get a tutor. Sex in the City was women getting tutored in what to do with different types of men. I think the coolest thing someone could do is recognize their weakness and work to improve it.
When guys ask me questions, it’s usually not about what to do to trick a woman into bed — it’s about how to get over heart- break, whether Alexander Technique will improve their posture, whether improv classes will make them more spontaneous,
what to do about “this one special girl,” how to dress, and so on.
Though some of the “gurus” may have their issues, 99.9 percent of the guys I met learning this are the NICE GUYS. They are the guys women always say they are looking for, yet at the same time are never attracted to.
Usually, the true assholes, jerks, and misogynists are too cocky and arrogant to even consider that they might need to “learn” how to interact with women.
So anyone who’s going to get on a bully pulpit and demonize men for trying to improve themselves is not a friend of mine.
And any pundit who’s going to criticize men for manipulation when that’s exactly what their show producers regularly do to their guests is not a friend of mine.
I think we’re talking past each other. I’m not talking about judging the ideas, I’m talking about judging the worst advocates. Those people are the ones who cause the revulsion, and we as a community need to deny them the spotlight when they act up until they learn better. Otherwise the community comes off as not being a rationalist community, and aspiring rationalists who might be interested walk away.
I don’t even think we’ve been doing a bad job overall. But it’s a job we’re doing, not something that happens automatically.
And this is where differing perceptions are probably causing issues. I haven’t seen any posts here from anyone who is anything nearing the worst advocates, but then I’ve hung around places where these topics are discussed much more confrontationally. I’ve seen nothing I deem worthy of censorship from the advocates, even the ‘worst’, but I have seen examples of what I view as completely unacceptable over-reaction, revulsion and guilt tripping from a small but vocal minority who claim offense.
I am very unsympathetic by nature to people who claim the right to block any conversation that they personally find offensive. My natural reaction to such people is to become more offensive, which while it has some merit from a game-theoretic standpoint is generally not conducive to social decorum so I make an effort to restrain such impulses. So for me, those people are the ones who cause revulsion, and we as a community need to deny them the spotlight when they act up until they learn better. Otherwise the community comes off as not being a rationalist community, and aspiring rationalists who might be interested walk away. So far people who share your perceptions seem to carry the support of the majority but I think there is a significant minority that share my perceptions.
I am very unsympathetic by nature to people who claim the right to block any conversation that they personally find offensive.
Despite some of the rhetoric flying around at the time, I don’t think anyone involved made that sort of claim. It was rather more like “I find this sort of thing offensive” and “Maybe we should listen to him, since lots of people probably would be turned away by that sort of thing, and the offensive bits aren’t really necessary.”
See Eliezer’s contribution, Of Exclusionary Speech and Gender Politics. Nutshell: We should avoid doing things that make people feel excluded, and that includes being sensitive and not being all feministy. So basically we want both of the potentially-interested groups you’ve identified to stay.
ETA: Surely I’ve overstated my case. Eliezer did suggest that he didn’t think it would be a problem to ban PUA if it bothered people; the main idea is that PUA isn’t that important of a topic in the grand scheme of things, so whatever.
It’s not an either-or proposition, I think. I’ll freely concede that I haven’t been particularly sensitive to those sharing your revulsion for political correctness*, but it would be a mistake to offend either group to flatter the other. It’s possible—it’s even been done here—to hold these discussions in a way which is fair to both sides.
It’s just hard. Which is why it’s usually a bad idea to go there.
It’s just hard. Which is why it’s usually a bad idea to go there.
Agree with first quoted sentence. Disagree with second one.
In my view, LessWrong should be a place where we rationally attempt to discuss subjects that would be too controversial to discuss anywhere else. On LessWrong, we can hold arguments in such discussions to higher standards of scrutiny than anywhere else.
I don’t agree with the “it’s hard, so we should give up” approach to discussing controversial subjects on LessWrong. Controversial, mind-killing subjects are exactly where rationalist scrutiny is most needed.
I don’t agree with the “it’s hard, so we should give up” approach to discussing controversial subjects on LessWrong. Controversial, mind-killing subjects are exactly where rationalist scrutiny is most needed.
Here’s a potential conflict in our views of LW’s purpose. I think of it as being about discussing rationality, and things that touch directly on rationality and being rational. In that case discussing controversial, mind-killing subjects is only relevant inasmuch as they cast light on rationality—they’re not inherently interesting.
I’ve posted here before about race/IQ and global warming, and for both of those I’ve felt as if I was covering territory that’s basically offtopic. This didn’t stop me from posting about them, or make me feel bad about it, but I did feel that if I had picked arguments about those topics just because I could, that wouldn’t have suited LW’s purpose. I would avoid writing a top-level post about subjects like that unless I thought it was a good way to make a compelling, more general point about rationality—otherwise I’d likely just be axe-grinding.
To me, it seems obvious that there a lot of links between pickup and rationality (both positive and negative). It’s occurred to me that perhaps I’ve been over-estimating the obviousness of those links to others who don’t have the same background in the subject matter, so I’ve tried to sketch out a bunch of them in my reply to RobinZ.
We may need a category of “this is too hard for us now”, with the possibility left open that as more of us get better at rationality, more difficult topics can be addressed well.
Your terminology is fine. The asymmetry that disturbs me is that while ‘political correctness’ annoys the hell out of me I’m not demanding for it to be a banned topic of conversation to avoid offending my delicate sensibilities. I don’t consider the causing of offense by particular views or topics to be a valid reason to avoid them. Note that this is different from discussing them in a deliberately offensive manner. I generally dislike an unnecessary impolite or aggressive tone to discussions but objecting to an entire topic is going too far in my opinion.
If we are still having this discussion could you link to a couple examples of the posts that you object to so much? I’m trying to figure out whether I missed something, or how similar my perceptions are to yours.
I broadly agree with the feminist project and think they have done more good than harm. I also have the following criticisms
Feminists too often mistake the complex, dynamic and context-dependent way status/power actually works for an oversimplified “patriarchy” where men as a class oppress women as a class.
This means feminism is much more sensitive to sexism against women and will routinely miss or play down sexism against men. This wouldn’t be a problem except that feminism has sort of universalist aspirations; they’re often more like a special interest group.
Feminism sometimes advocates taking political roles that can be oppressive, in much the same way gender roles can. This is partly why the movement has had trouble embracing transgendered people, BDSM, porn stars, sex workers etc. (And why the views of so-called ‘radical’ feminists still can’t accept these groups)
Despite talking a lot about intersectionality, the core feminist institutions are more like a voice for Western, white, upper middle class women than for women as a whole. (A criticism I feel kind of like a dick making as I am all of those things+ a man, but it’s true).
The movement isn’t a good place for a young man to make his social home because as a woman’s movement the place for men in it is in the background and the primary way the movement relates to men is in their defense of women from men (which is fine, politically, it just is a terrible way for a young man to relate to himself).
The thing is, there isn’t a movement for gender equality. It seems to be very hard to motivate people to work on things without building in a group identity, and the group identity is us vs. them. Or have I spent too much time reading people who work that way, and there are alternatives I haven’t seen?
I’ve wondered whether people have a bias towards bad ideas. Simple good sense isn’t dramatic enough (or possibly doesn’t offer enough opportunities for power seeking) to get attention easily.
Still, there’s some good work being done, and I think of this as an effort to figure out how to live well with other people—something which is surprisingly difficult.
It seems to be very hard to motivate people to work on things without building in a group identity, and the group identity is us vs. them. Or have I spent too much time reading people who work that way, and there are alternatives I haven’t seen?
Well, humans seem to be wired that way, so anyone you’ve met who works differently has done so deliberately and is very strange.
Feminists too often mistake the complex, dynamic and context-dependent way status/power actually works for an oversimplified “patriarchy” where men as a class oppress women as a class.
That sounds like ‘radical feminism’, and it’s not so much a mistake of the ‘feminism’ as it is of the ‘radical’. Marx did the same thing with class.
This means feminism is much more sensitive to sexism against women and will routinely miss or play down sexism against men. This wouldn’t be a problem except that feminism has sort of universalist aspirations; they’re often more like a special interest group.
Feminists actually have a lot of complex, dynamic, and context-dependent reasons for focusing on sexism against women, ranging from being a radical feminist, to thinking sexism against women is the bigger problem that needs to be dealt with, to thinking that’s what ‘feminism’ is about by definition and someone else should have the job of being sensitive to sexism against men. It’s one reason “women’s studies” programs in universities have been slowly converting themselves over to “gender studies”, to drop the female-centric nature as it’s no longer needed.
Despite talking a lot about intersectionality, the core feminist institutions are more like a voice for Western, white, upper middle class women then for women as a whole. (A criticism I feel kind of like a dick making as I am all of those things+ a man, but it’s true).
This has been internally considered a big problem for a long time, and now remains a problem only if you look at Western, white, upper middle class feminist institutions specifically.
The movement isn’t a good place for a young man to make his social home
Indeed. There are a lot of crazies out there. But I’d make the same case for just about any ‘movement’.
Feminists too often mistake the complex, dynamic and context-dependent way status/power actually works for an oversimplified “patriarchy” where men as a class oppress women as a class.
That sounds like ‘radical feminism’, and it’s not so much a mistake of the ‘feminism’ as it is of the ‘radical’. Marx did the same thing with class.
Well, my sense is that the simple view is (a) what the radicals hold and (b) what those who don’t get into the theory end up believing. It’s kind of like how the Catholic church itself doesn’t think God is necessary for morality but this view is common among evangelicals and unstudied Catholics.
Feminists actually have a lot of complex, dynamic, and context-dependent reasons for focusing on sexism against women, ranging from being a radical feminist,
Being a radical feminist isn’t really a reason for doing something, what are the reasons for being a radical feminist? Anyway, my understanding of the radfem position is that there is no such thing as sexism against men, so yes, they’re not going to be paying a lot of attention to sexism against men.
to thinking sexism against women is the bigger problem that needs to be dealt with, to thinking that’s what ‘feminism’ is about by definition and someone else should have the job of being sensitive to sexism against men.
These reasons I’m pretty much fine with (and mostly agree with), which is why the problem isn’t that they aren’t good at noticing sexism against men but that they’re aren’t good at noticing sexism and take themselves to be giving a universal and unbiased perspective on gender issues. Feminism has problems being both the major vehicle for gender egalitarianism and the major vehicle for empowering women. The contradictions here were extremely minimal when feminism started out, but of course the more success feminism has the more this contradiction will come into play.
This has been internally considered a big problem for a long time, and now remains a problem only if you look at Western, white, upper middle class feminist institutions specifically.
I agree that it has been a problem internally. And maybe I need to make this more clear: I basically have one foot in the camp and one foot outside it, so some (maybe even most) of my criticisms are things that feminists have said themselves. I’m not sure I know what you mean by “remains a problem only if you look at …”. I don’t think there are many feminist institutions that identify themselves as Western, white and upper middle class. If you mean the institutions that are made up of mostly Western, white and upper class women then I suppose I agree with you except that these are the best funded, most influential and, for the rest of the culture, defining institutions for feminism. My experience reading non-white, poor and non-Western women on this subject suggests they still perceive many of the same problems that spurred the initial intersectionality critique.
Indeed. There are a lot of crazies out there. But I’d make the same case for just about any ‘movement’.
I think my original comment made it clear why I think feminism is particularly problematic in this regard but if it didn’t let me know and I’ll clarify.
Well, my sense is that the simple view is (a) what the radicals hold and (b) what those who don’t get into the theory end up believing. It’s kind of like how the Catholic church itself doesn’t think God is necessary for morality but this view is common among evangelicals and unstudied Catholics.
Yes, I’d have to grant you that, and I think the rest follows.
Feminism has problems being both the major vehicle for gender egalitarianism and the major vehicle for empowering women. The contradictions here were extremely minimal when feminism started out, but of course the more success feminism has the more this contradiction will come into play.
I get the impression it’s moving in the opposite direction. The shrill radical sorts are being de-emphasized (not least since everyone noticed political correctness is silly), and as I noted “women’s studies” is slowly transforming into “gender studies”.
The major battlegrounds now, as I see them, are on exactly these sorts of questions. Is gender egalitarianism possible? Is it valuable? Are there factors which explain things like income disparity, and what, if anything, should we do about them?
But then, I haven’t really been following the literature for a couple of years.
I get the impression it’s moving in the opposite direction. The shrill radical sorts are being de-emphasized (not least since everyone noticed political correctness is silly), and as I noted “women’s studies” is slowly transforming into “gender studies”.
I see what you mean here. I think it’s part of the same process. Equating gender egalitarianism with empowering women doesn’t make quite as much sense as it once did. And for this reason radical feminists are losing influence, their message doesn’t resonate like it used to. But at the same time aspects of the radical view haven been embedded in a lot of feminist 101 stuff (just think, for example, about the concept of the patriarchy) and mainstream/liberal feminism is having a really hard time getting away from that.
Personally my general reaction to feminism is negative but it appears to encompass a sufficiently diverse range of viewpoints that I find myself agreeing with some subset of those viewpoints. My impression is that rationality is not a strong feature of feminist thought but I recognize that I have probably been mostly exposed to the worst advocates.
The most convincing advocate of feminist ideas I have encountered is Kerry Howley. I think I can probably stomach feminist ideas she espouses because they are sugar coated in a libertarian wrapper. I’m not even sure that she would self-describe as a feminist but I feel that what sympathy I have for feminist ideas can in large part be credited to her writing.
I like Kerry Howley too. She does self-describe as a feminist. She’s in the tradition of Voltairine de Cleyre.
I grew discouraged by feminism as represented by, say, the writers at feministe. There was a great deal of opposition to thinking the wrong thoughts. But you’re right, it’s an extraordinarily broad area, to the point of (almost) not being a useful term.
I think there is a parallel to the complaints about the PUA discussions here. I’ve often seen feminist ideas presented in a tone of hostility and misandry and embedded in a whole heap of background assumptions and beliefs that I do not share. I can read some of the same ideas from someone like Kerry Howley and appreciate that they are actually quite reasonable and compatible with my own views because I am not immediately on the defensive and looking for disagreement.
I also feel this way about criticisms of feminism. A lot of it comes from this entitled, resentful and misogynist place which aggravates me. I find that even among the most reasonable critics of feminism this attitude has a tendency to come out from time to time.
Is there anything in particular of Kerry Howley’s that you recommend?
This might be interesting—it’s an analysis of the similarities between feminist descriptions of the patriarchy and libertarian descriptions of the state, with the suggestion that libertarians and feminists could learn quite a bit from each other.
This might be interesting—it’s an analysis of the similarities between feminist descriptions of the patriarchy and libertarian descriptions of the state
Thanks for the link, it’s an interesting article. I don’t find much to take issue with there—I generally agree with their analysis. Unfortunately I see little evidence of any progress towards reconciliation.
I find the focus on radicalism as a common trait interesting. I see parallels with coverage of the financial crisis where I basically agree with much of the analysis of people like Matt Taibbi or Simon Johnson and James Kwak on the root causes of the financial crisis but have a rather different idea of what needs to be done to fix the problem. The ideas of a feminist-libertarian alliance and a left-libertarian alliance have many commonalities.
All I can say is that people don’t necessarily work like that. If they don’t have a strong preference for a social group, they aren’t going to ignore things they don’t like.
Agreed. Still my point remains, to what extent should a group stop doing certain activities to accommodate hypothetical future members who might or might not join even if the group ceases doing said activities.
while the lurkers don’t have a political constituency.
I actually don’t see why lurkers as lurkers should have a political constituency. They don’t contribute to the site by definition. Any given lurker is welcome to become a poster and then they will be part of their own political constituency.
What about those here who maybe want to discuss this? Shouldn’t they be entitled to it?
If that is the case, then it certainly is not because of a general “Everyone is entitled to discuss whatever they want here” principle, as such a principle does not exist. The site’s purpose is rationality, and anything that serves that goal is allowed, and anything that does not is suspect.
The thing is, that’s an odd response. Look at the flow here:
Roland sez: should we really give up discussing PUA just to make women feel more comfortable?
Kaiokan sez: I don’t expect that many women on the site in the first place, because of XYZ, where XYZ is a fairly ambitious claim that’s likely to be disputed in itself.
Without XYZ, I think most of us, men and women, could agree on the basic point you’re trying to make, that is, we expect more men than women on the site. So why bring up XYZ? It doesn’t actually have a function in your argument other than the fact that you like it and you found an excuse to bring it up. (I’m often guilty of this too, but I suspect it’s bad logical hygiene and I’m trying to get rid of those habits.)
As for the actual question… well, it depends if we can trust ourselves to handle it well. Apparently the convention around here is that we don’t bring up topics that totally overwhelm rationality, because we’re trying to practice rationality. But ultimately we do live in a world where hot-button subjects exist and we have to respond to them one way or another, and potentially not just by avoidance. For somebody from my environment, and it seems for many others, the topic of PUA is a challenge. Maybe a fun challenge. But possibly one we can’t handle well (yet).
Thank you for not wanting to sound intolerant. As a rule, though, if you don’t know how to say what you want to say without disclaiming it, you have a lot of work to do before saying it.
That’s not what I meant—your disclaimer was a warning from yourself that you should not be confident that you have avoided saying something intolerant. In such a case, simple editing is rarely the solution; if you don’t understand the situation enough to be justly confident to start with, you don’t understand it well enough to confidently make edits.
In this case, you have repeated a number of strong claims about sex differences without acknowledging any of the evident cultural factors—it is these specific features of your comment which are likely to make you appear intolerant, and they are (ironically) more prominent after your edit.
I think you are being a little unfair. He stated two fairly well established psychological facts (greater variance in intelligence and differences on the empathizing–systemizing scale), a personality tendency with decent ev-psych support (lone-wolf) and a reasonable extrapolated hypothesis from these tendencies (male dominance of computing/math/engineering disciplines). He then made a clearly flagged personal prediction based on these observations that we are unlikely to ever see a high percentage of female commenters here given the subject matter.
Any interpretation of a nature/nurture assumption is coming from you. He merely noted the differences and did not express an opinion on the reason for them. We can do better than the Larry Summers Harvard debacle here. Address the evidence for the claims or the specific reasons why a different tone would be preferred rather than engaging in pre-emptive censorship.
Using contemporary data from the U.S. and other nations, we address 3 questions: Do gender differences in mathematics performance exist in the general population? Do gender differences exist among the mathematically talented? Do females exist who possess profound mathematical talent? In regard to the first question, contemporary data indicate that girls in the U.S. have reached parity with boys in mathematics performance, a pattern that is found in some other nations as well. Focusing on the second question, studies find more males than females scoring above the 95th or 99th percentile, but this gender gap has significantly narrowed over time in the U.S. and is not found among some ethnic groups and in some nations. Furthermore, data from several studies indicate that greater male variability with respect to mathematics is not ubiquitous. Rather, its presence correlates with several measures of gender inequality. Thus, it is largely an artifact of changeable sociocultural factors, not immutable, innate biological differences between the sexes. Responding to the third question, we document the existence of females who possess profound mathematical talent. Finally, we review mounting evidence that both the magnitude of mean math gender differences and the frequency of identification of gifted and profoundly gifted females significantly correlate with sociocultural factors, including measures of gender equality across nations.
Intelligence is a vague, multi-faceted word. Whenever intelligence is mentioned in a comparative or quantitative way, care should be taken to indicate exactly which dimension of intelligence is being measured. Since the dimensions of intelligence probably aren’t well parametrized, it would be sufficient to indicate the particular test that was being used. Otherwise, the biases that sneak in are less traceable. In experimental science, it is a really good norm they’ve established to always include the detailed context and methodology of the experiment, so current researchers can estimate and predict biases and figure out ‘what went wrong’ when they get a different result under different conditions.
For example, if it was a standard IQ test that determined the variance in male intelligence, I have an understanding of the biases in those tests, and if it was comparing income, I have an understanding of the biases there. When it comes to experimental studies in social science and psychology, I always weight their result low compared to my own observations of a lifetime, because if I’ve observed anything, I’ve observed that things are complex, and I know we haven’t developed tools to handle this complexity.
Yes, the world is a complex place. Yes, any finding in the social sciences may not show what it purports to show due to biases and flaws in the methodology. We can do better here than simply ignoring all evidence on the basis that it might be wrong however. Remember that ‘belief’ in some idea is not a binary thing, 0 and 1 are not probabilities, all beliefs are open to future revision in either direction in light of new evidence. A rationalist should be trying to refine their degree of belief by asking questions and doing further research.
Greater variance in male performance is both a widely observed phenomenon in many domains and something that you would expect to see given the differing selection pressures on males and females. It need not be an emotionally laden observation since it is not inherently implying that either gender is ‘better’ than the other in some way, it is merely an observed regularity of our world.
So if you dispute the evidence for greater variance in male performance generally and in intelligence measures specifically please address your criticisms to specifics. What specifically are the biases in standard IQ tests or measures of income that you have an understanding of and how do they act to produce misleading results? What other data (experimental is preferable but anecdotal is admissible for consideration) do you have to offer on this issue? This is a perfect example of a question we can collectively apply our rationality to in order to improve the accuracy of our probability estimates.
Or don’t. Just say ‘I don’t believe any of this evidence should influence my beliefs because the world is complex and evidence can be wrong’ if you choose. But do not pretend that that is either a noble or rational stance to take on an issue.
I have a thought on these studies that give evidence for unequal intelligence between the sexes (or races.) They can have very scary, emotional connotations. They used to scare me. Then I thought about it a bit and asked “What am I scared of?” And I realized that I was scared that, if these genetic inequalities were real, I’d have to be a sexist or racist.
But think for a minute. Suppose the “worst-case scenario” were true. Suppose women really did have worse brains than men, for genetic reasons. What would be my logical response?
It occurred to me that the only responsible way to react to such news would be to treat it as a disease to be cured. And then start working on biology to fix it. I am not an anti-Semite because I’m aware that Tay-Sachs disease affects Ashkenazic Jews.
If there were genetic differences between sexes or races, I’d be less likely to favor affirmative action at the college or employment level, because it wouldn’t be effective. The injustice would be biological, not social, and it would be best fixed biologically.
The real reason people are scared of genetic differences is the naturalistic fallacy. Just because an inequality is natural doesn’t mean it’s good. If some people have the misfortune to have low IQ’s for genetic reasons, and if higher IQ would make their lives better, then shouldn’t we be working on fixing that?
(Note: this is not an argument that IQ differences exist or are meaningful. I’m just arguing that if they turn out to be real, there are non-sexist, non-racist ways to deal with that reality. I’m of the belief now that knowing what reality is like can never be intrinsically immoral.)
If there were genetic differences between sexes or races, I’d be less likely to favor affirmative action at the college or employment level, because it wouldn’t be effective. The injustice would be biological, not social, and it would be best fixed biologically.
With the caveat that a biological injustice and a social injustice are not mutually exclusive—there may be genetic differences between sexes/races, but that would not eliminate the possibility of additional unnecessary social barriers to college or work.
ETA: I should also have remembered that ‘biological’ does not equal ‘genetic.’
Though there’s an added harm if the average varies across groups, especially groups where membership is easy to recognize. Because then, people (reasonably) make generalizations, and high-IQ members of a low-IQ group are harmed by negative opinions. Add in the fact that people have biases, and stereotyping is likely to go even beyond what’s reasonable, so the problem becomes even worse.
But yes, if some individuals have low IQ for genetic reasons (or other reasons beyond their control) I consider it a bad thing and we ought to see about fixing it. I think Eliezer made this point earlier.
The injustice is that each individual is not maximally intelligent. The variance in intelligence between individuals just means that this is more unjust for some people than others.
I’m not sure whether I’d want to be maximally intelligent. You could say the injustice is that individuals are less intelligent than would be optimal for their flourishing, or whatever.
One of the major concerns here are Gattaca-type scenarios, where when you’re looking for very smart people you’ll throw out all of the applications from females to maximize your odds of getting a very smart person. Obviously someone with the time to look at every application wouldn’t do that, as the smartest applicant could still be a female. But usually there are some factors that you use first to throw away some of the stack so you don’t have to look at them all.
That may be happening already. (Statistical discrimination is one model for employment discrimination, and as I recall it doesn’t hold up too badly; better than the Becker model, at least.) It’s not an intrinsically “Gattaca” idea.
Of course, in a world where there was a biological “fix” for low IQ, you’d have the issue of whether it should be voluntary (I’d say yes) and whether people who don’t opt for it should get preference from schools and employers (I’d say no, but tentatively) and what to do about access (it’s complicated.) But I’m fairly confident that if IQ matters for real life outcomes, then a world where it can be improved technologically is a better one.
I have a thought on these studies that give evidence for unequal intelligence between the sexes (or races.) They can have very scary, emotional connotations. They used to scare me. Then I thought about it a bit and asked “What am I scared of?” And I realized that I was scared that, if these genetic inequalities were real, I’d have to be a sexist or racist.
Yeah, I think this is a common reaction and it’s not an entirely unreasonable reaction because sexism and racism are bad. But as you’ve realized it is better to know the truth if you want to influence the world in a direction consistent with your values.
Just to be clear though, the claim is not that men are ‘more intelligent’ than women. It is that men have greater variance. This means more geniuses and more morons. It only carries value connotations if you believe more variance is inherently ‘better’, not if you believe higher intelligence is better. If you look at the scandal over Larry Summers’ comments on this issue you will see that the vast majority of people who were offended by his comments did not understand this distinction.
(Note: this is not an argument that IQ differences exist or are meaningful. I’m just arguing that if they turn out to be real, there are non-sexist, non-racist ways to deal with that reality. I’m of the belief now that knowing what reality is like can never be intrinsically immoral.)
Yes, this is the key. It is always better to know the truth if you wish to effectively influence the future. You still get to choose your own values though—if the way things are is not the way you think they should be then believing true things is your best bet for effectively resolving that discrepancy in a favourable way.
Yeah, I’m aware about the variance thing. The “geniuses” side of the graph stands out to me more, but probably only because of personal relevance. (I never took an IQ test but I’d guess I’m more likely top half than bottom half.) But you’re right, if there were higher variance among men, and if IQ mattered, then I’d believe we were also obligated to do something about low-IQ males.
Richard Whitmire (see http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/whyboysfail/) convinced me that there’s a serious educational problem among US and European boys. He examines the education system, not IQ, but if some of it turns out to be biological then we should be working on that too.
I think the problems with the education system in the US and Europe are more fundamental than just that it is failing boys. The real problem is that we have an educational system adapted for early 20th century industrial societies that for institutional reasons has been unable to adapt to a completely transformed economic and social landscape. The most obvious victims are certain groups of boys but the whole system is completely unsuited to the modern world and is structured in a way that makes it largely incapable of correctly diagnosing or doing anything to fix the problems.
Yes, but usually, when a grad student in mathematics believes she has above median intelligence with respect to the general population, she will turn out to be right.
Just to be clear though, the claim is not that men are ‘more intelligent’ than women. It is that men have greater variance. This means more geniuses and more morons. It only carries value connotations if you believe more variance is inherently ‘better’, not if you believe higher intelligence is better. If you look at the scandal over Larry Summers’ comments on this issue you will see that the vast majority of people who were offended by his comments did not understand this distinction.
The question isn’t necessarily whether men in general are better than women in general. The active question seems to be whether it’s alright for women to get high status positions.
The active question seems to be whether it’s alright for women to get high status positions.
The active question in what context? Clearly the variance issue has no bearing on this question. Whether greater variance in intelligence is a real phenomenon potentially has bearing on questions regarding whether institutional sexism in certain academic disciplines is a real issue and on the appropriateness of quota systems or ‘positive discrimination’ but I don’t see how anyone who understood the issue could claim that it was not ‘alright’ for women to hold high status positions. I’m sure some people make that unrelated claim but people believe all sorts of crazy shit.
The issue seems to be, in your misreading of my comment, that you expect I feel emotional about gender issues, and perhaps feel threatened indiscriminately by any statements about gender and intelligence. But I don’t. It happens that I’m not generally concerned about gender issues and am not on the look out to defend them. Personally, I don’t anticipate feeling threatened by any statements that might be true about gender.
On issues on which I am emotional (they exist), I feel much less threatened by statements if they are either clearly personal opinions/impressions or scientific statements that carry the specifics with them. I feel that if the specifics are there, I can trust that there is enough information to vet the statement, if needed, in the present or the future, and thus prevent inappropriate application. If the statement is a personal opinion/impression, we know the appropriate application of that.
So if the point is to discuss issues “rationally”, without stirring up emotions, then it would be a good norm to always signal clearly whether a statement is a personal opinion/impression OR a scientific claim. If the latter, it is the careful inclusion of the methodology/context that makes it scientific.
I apologize for jumping to conclusions. This is sort of why I think getting into specifics is important. If you just make a vague hand-wavey ‘this might not be true’ dismissal of a claim you leave your interlocutor with little choice but to try and guess what your true objection is and so read too much into your comment.
If you just make a vague hand-wavey ‘this might not be true’ dismissal of a claim
This isn’t what I did. My criticism was fairly focused, with a fairly specific solution:
Whenever intelligence is mentioned in a comparative or quantitative way, care should be taken to indicate exactly which dimension of intelligence is being measured. [...] it would be sufficient to indicate the particular test that was being used.
The part that had you thinking I was dismissing the claim was probably this:
When it comes to experimental studies in social science and psychology, I always weight their result low compared to my own observations of a lifetime, because if I’ve observed anything, I’ve observed that things are complex, and I know we haven’t developed tools to handle this complexity.
It probably would have been wise to omit this sentence, since it caused so much bias about my intentions. My idea is that researchers do try to tackle complex subjects, like intelligence, and will measure something or do some experiment and report the results, but the interpretation or relevance of the study is all ‘spin’ in the Abstract or heavily dependent upon the reader’s lifetime experience to understand the relevance.
For example, what is “intelligence”? This is something that a group of researchers have to define, and have to measure in some way, in order to do their study and get it published. Consider the Dreary study. They’ve measured something and called it general intelligence. This part is the spin. However, when you look at how they defined “general intelligence”—this is a scientific paper; they do tell us, and they’re specific—it is patent that they didn’t include social intelligence, emotional intelligence or “street smarts” in this conception of intelligence. Requiring this clarification isn’t dismissing the study results, it’s just emphasizing that the context and the specifics are important.
See the Deary study of practically the entire population of Scottish 11 year-olds, which found greater male variability. The introduction of the study also discusses the history of the greater male variability hypothesis, and some of the evidence for it.
There is a cross-cultural study which found that males have higher variance in most populations, but females do in others. (Of course, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the difference is “cultural,” though it could.) I will try to dig it up. Even so, greater male variability is a robust finding.
This is the bit that I think is important when discussing results about intelligence:
We use the term general intelligence to mean the ability to use combinations of preexisting knowledge and abstract reasoning to solve any of a variety of problems designed to assess the extent to which individuals can benefit from instruction or the amount of instruction necessary to attain a given level of competence.
However, I’m not saying you need to include this information in your comment because you already made the context specific: the Deary study. So a person can dig deeper and find these details if they want to.
Even so, greater male variability is a robust finding.
Just to say, you didn’t actually support this. Unless it is supported in the Dreary study?
Just to say, you didn’t actually support this. Unless it is supported in the Dreary study?
It’s supported at least by the combination of the Deary study, and the cross-cultural study I mentioned that I’ll have to look up when I get home. I believe the author was Feingold. Good question, though.
My bad… The Feingold study is a meta-analyses of studies, some that find greater male variability, and some that find greater female variability in various dimensions.
This does not seem like an apt reply to the above. This:
I don’t believe any of this evidence should influence my beliefs because the world is complex and evidence can be wrong
Is a particularly bad straw man. “I weight their result low” seems to be doing the sort of thing you advocate, as opposed to “no influence”.
Do you disagree with the general stance presented, that the methodology/context of an experimental study matters, and these things should be taken into consideration when evaluating their effects on our beliefs?
Do you disagree with the general stance presented, that the methodology/context of an experimental study matters, and these things should be taken into consideration when evaluating their effects on our beliefs?
No, and I would welcome discussion of the specific issues that people are taking into account, as I said. I am open to the possibility that there is some major flaw that renders these results questionable that I have not previously encountered. What I am objecting to is precisely the lack of such specifics. It is not enough to say that things are complex and studies can be flawed or misleading. These are trivially true facts and to imply that your interlocutor is unaware of them on Less Wrong of all places is disingenuous.
There have been a few comments in this thread that are taking the same kind of approach—dismissing the claims on the basis of unspecified flaws in the supporting evidence but never offering specific rebuttals to any of the disputed claims.
edit—Oh god, do I need to learn how to write better.
Don’t worry, I also have a terrible style. Just continue practicing, it takes a lot of time to become a good writer. Eliezer has written some posts touching on this subject.
I’m not sure how this would come off as intolerant, though my detector for that stuff has been off the last couple of days.
Anyway, whether or not you’re right pretty much depends on what you mean by “substantial”. Off the top of my head I can think of five or six female regulars. That isn’t too shabby. There aren’t that many regulars, period. Considering this is (a) the internet, and (b) a place where a bunch of computer nerds talk about science and philosophy I think that’s actually quite good! It would be nice if the ratio is was a little better, but I don’t think anyone here actually thinks it would ever get past 1:4. And I think we’re okay with that. As long as it doesn’t become like 1:100.
I wonder if we should focus so much on the gender inequality. Nowadays everything seems to operate under the assumption that gender equality in numbers is a desideratum. I don’t know if we should operate under this assumption unless we want to signal that we are conforming to the Zeitgeist.
If the site’s purpose is rationality should it matter if there is a majority of males? I agree of course that females should be welcome and treated with respect, but the same applies to anybody. Midgets should also be welcome and treated with respect as should people who were born in airplanes over the Atlantic. And don’t forget the people with green eyes and black hair, they too deserve respect.
I agree of course that females should be welcome and treated with respect,
This was the issue. The way PUA was being discussed made some women here feel unwelcome and disrespected.
If the site’s purpose is rationality should it matter if there is a majority of males?
Of course not. No one expects there to ever be anything but a majority of males. But the community would be better off if the ratio wasn’t as skewed as it is. Some reasons:
Gender diversity means experience diversity and neuro-diversity, these things let us catch blind spots. The fact that we are men means there will be experiences we aren’t aware of and it is helpful to have people with those experiences around to fill in the gaps. This of course goes for all kinds of socially significant diversity.
Women, on average, appear to be less confrontational and aggressive in their discussions here (I don’t know if this is learned or innate). People with such demeanors are good to have around as the rest of us appear to get our egos caught up in arguments a lot.
One ostensible goal of this site is to help spread rationality. Alienating large segments of the the potential convert pool is a bad idea.
The general consensus appears to be that Less Wrong would be better if it were larger, it speeds up our hypothesis generation capabilities and decreases the chances of us missing things. Again, alienating large segments of the potential commenter pool is a bad idea.
And don’t forget the people with green eyes and black hair, they too deserve respect.
Can we please move past this simplistic anti-political correctness attitude where we pretend deep social categories are equivalent to eye color?
What I don’t understand is why we’re having this meta-level discussion again. All these points have been made before and whatever has been said about a ban, it is quite clear that anyone can talk about PUA without negative consequences provided they do so in a respectful manner, take into account differences between women etc. Is it that important that our discussions about what women find attractive offend women?
Huh? It’s not like anyone is advocating affirmative action or extra karma for women. Some of the women here (in addition to some of the men) objected to the exclusionary, objectifying language, overly broad generalizations and ethically ambiguous advice that went hand in hand with the way some people were discussing Pick-Up Artistry.
We want people with good ideas, no? Then if possible, let’s avoid alienating groups of people who may have good ideas, and perhaps just as importantly, different ideas. Diversity is how you catch blind spots.
I think this comment is at like +5 −8, unless someone is just changing their vote a lot. I’ve been trying to avoid asking about the occasional downvote, but this keeps fluctuating so I have to ask. I’m confused about what people dislike so much. I can’t imagine the downvotes are just about using profanity. I only commented because didn’t understand why we were diving into an inflammatory meta-conversation, complete with accusations of gender inequity, when the object-level conversations had been going fine.
I would guess that the profanity is enough to explain the low score. Aside from that, “Why are you starting shit” seems at least rude and also carries a host of connotations including a belligerent nature.
Jack, it wasn’t my intention to start “shit”(using your words). I’m writing on PU based on what I remember reading about this in the past on this website, and I’ve been a member here since the days where this was still overcomingbias.com. I wasn’t aware of the current discussion but even so I don’t think it invalidates my point if you bother to read what I wrote.
I have to agree with Morendil below, AFAIK there are only few women contributing here and at the same time there is definitively some concern about increasing this number, I remember that Eliezer wrote one post about this.
You see Alicorn, women are not the only group who is underrepresented, but I don’t see the same concern regarding others.
I see a pattern here as in the real world “women need more fairness” and the end result is often that privileges are granted to them. Your post certainly contributed to that impression. It’s just an impression, maybe I’m seeing it totally through the wrong lenses.
Eliezer says(sorry for another example regarding PUA but it’s just so salient to me, and yes, unfortunately I feel the need to excuse myself, strange, isn’t it? Why do I feel this need?) In the end, PUA is not something we need to be talking about here, and if it’s giving one entire gender the wrong vibes on this website, I say the hell with it..
What is wrong with this sentence? What about those here who maybe want to discuss this? Shouldn’t they be entitled to it? So there is more concern about a gender that is underrepresented(people that are not even here) but that could hypothetically contribute more members in the future as for those who are active or passive(lurkers) members in this community and have great interest and could possibly learn a lot from this topic. Alicorn I read your comments on how to make friends and there are similarities to PU.
And for those women/men who don’t want to read about PU why not ignore the respective articles?
Edit: sorry for making my argument so PU centric. It’s just something that was salient to me.
That’s a very interesting point. I suspect it’s because there’s a lot of social pressure to assume that something is wrong if a group contains no or few women, while the lurkers don’t have a political constituency.
I think it would be worthwhile for LW to be a more comfortable place for women, but figuring out how to encourage people who are already interested and would be valuable contributors to post is important even though it doesn’t have obvious signaling value.
All I can say is that people don’t necessarily work like that. If they don’t have a strong preference for a social group, they aren’t going to ignore things they don’t like.
Also, a common reaction to PUA isn’t “don’t want”, it’s revulsion. There’s a spread effect.
I think roland’s point is that neither of these reactions are terribly appropriate for a community of aspiring rationalists. The conflict between this and the desire for broader appeal is really at the heart of the issue.
Personally I am an ‘elitist prick’, at least in the context of this site. I want to be able to freely discuss things that are not usually discussed because of revulsion reactions. Robin Hanson’s fearless approach to this is what originally drew me to Overcoming Bias. I have plenty of real world friends and acquaintances to discuss safe topics with, the value to me of this site is the ability to discuss things that are not safe topics amongst normal people.
Have you noticed that the people who are remembered as making the most accurate and useful observations about PUA are the same people who didn’t cause the disgust reaction?
Also, remember that every post we promote is another possible first impression. I wouldn’t want to join a community of people, mostly men, describing Women as an undifferentiated mass distinguished by an array of mental flaws to be exploited for personal gain—that’s a sign of some hardcore irrationality, to make claims which are that self-aggrandizing and that easily refuted. (Easily refuted because they are hasty generalizations, I hastily add.)
Edit: I’ll admit that I’m exaggerating the degree of bad rhetoric displayed here during the whole PUA flamewar, but the point about the hasty generalizations shouldn’t be ignored—I know too many people who don’t fit the stereotypes promoted in those discussions to view these stereotypes sympathetically.
I wouldn’t want to join a community that did those things, or which uncritically praised a community that did. Still, I think that even if the seduction community were an undifferentiated mass of irrationality, it would be worth discussing here for the same reasons that we talk about religion and astrology.
Personally, when I see people being successful in a certain domain (or believing that they are successful), yet holding some obviously irrational beliefs, my interest is piqued. If these people are successful, is that despite their irrational beliefs, or could it be because of those beliefs? Could it be that some of the beliefs of PUAs work even though they are not true?
I don’t understand why other rationalists wouldn’t be wondering the same things, even when confronted with the negative aspects of pickup. As I’ve argued in the past here and here, pickup relates to many rationality topics:
Instrumental rationality (how to succeed according to one’s criteria for success)
The availability heuristic (the theories of PUAs are based on the women they most commonly encounter, and the most salient experiences with those women; the opinions of outsiders on the seduction community are also subject to the availability heuristic)
Underdetermination of theory by evidence, and the problem of induction; how much ad hoc support which should allow to a theory about social interaction before we trash it
Self-fulfilling prophecies (to what extent believing certain notions about oneself makes them come true in social interaction; how believing certain PUA theories and acting on them might produce experiences that appear to confirm those theories)
Empiricism (PUAs advocate “field testing” ideas about how to interact with women)
Kuhnian paradigms (the theories of PUAs have gone through several Kuhnian revolutions, and PUAs tend to interpret their experiences within the reigning paradigms in the community)
Lakatos’ notions of progressive vs. degenerative research programs (to what extent do the theories of PUAs allow them to make predictions of novel facts? How progressive is the research program of PUAs?)
Demarcation criterion (some PUAs claim that their teachings are based on “science”… to what extent is pickup scientific?)
Naive realism vs. instrumentalism (many practices of PUAs work, but to what extent are the theories behind them actually true?)
Heuristic and problem-solving with limited information (how do solve the problem of a lack of social knowledge, given only one’s own anecdotal observations and those of others? What theshold of evidence you should accept for a certain piece of advice before you act on it?)
The psychology of influence and persuasion, status, and signalling (revealing biases in how people perceive each other)
Perhaps I’ve been committing the “typical mind fallacy” by assuming that just because these links between pickup and rationality are obvious to me, that they are also obvious to others.
We appear to have a topic that has a lot of connections to rationality, some of which have been discussed here with a lot of approval, judging by upvotes. There are also people who discuss this topic in a non-rigorous way that causes feelings of repugnance in many observers. In my view, the relevance of pickup to rationality and the philosophy of science is so great that we would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to discourage discussion of the topic. The solution is to discuss this topic in a rigorous way, and the connections to rationality made clear. When the topic is discussed in a non-rigorous and repugnance-causing way, the appropriate recourse is the reply button and the downvote button.
(Building on this earlier comment of mine.)
I appreciate your list of connections between PUA and rationality, because it’s gotten me closer to working out why I don’t see PUA as having a special connection to rationality.
I think it’s because I find the connections you suggest generic. Most of them, I reckon, would hold for any subculture with a sufficiently active truth-seeking element, such as (picking a few examples out of thin air, so they may not be good examples, but I hope they communicate my point) poker, art valuation, or trading card gaming. Though I’d guess that each of these topics has links to rationality like those you mention, in depth discussion of them on LW would tend to feel off-topic to me.
This doesn’t really relate to the more typical complaints about PUA that I see upthread—i.e. that some of the discussion of it grosses people out, and that it’s inaccurately reductive—but I thought I’d add my two cents to convey my mental context for my last reply.
Thanks for giving additional context. I think you are correct that we have a difference of opinion. Personally, I would be absolutely thrilled to see a discussion on LessWrong of how poker, art valuation, or trading card gaming relate to rationality. Would these subjects not interest you, or is your worry that discussion of them would get too far off-topic to a degree that is bad?
I suppose delving very deep into those subjects could also feel off-topic to me if the connection to rationality was lost, yet I would be comfortable with whatever level of depth people more knowledgeable than me on those subject felt was necessary to elucidate the links to rationality. (And if other people were making truth-claims about the content of those disciplines, and those people often displayed bias or misunderstanding in either a laudatory or critical direction, I would be comfortable seeing those truth-claims evaluated. Even if debate about the merits or nature of a subjects gets away from the direct relationship of that subject to rationality, that debate itself may demonstrate applications of rationality to a controversial subject, which I like to see.)
Your mileage may vary, but I find that I learn in a “hands on” way, and attempting to apply rationality to a practical problem helps me attain a more abstract understanding. See the notion of Contract to Expand, where sometimes solving a specific sub-problem can be helpful for solving a larger, more general problem.
I would consider any subculture or discipline with a “sufficiently active truth-seeking element” to be excellent LessWrong fodder, as long as the discussion (a) was connected to rationality, or (b) addressed the nature of the subcultures and disciplines so that readers can know how they work well enough to evaluate their potential relationship to rationality (particularly if there is disagreement on that nature or relationship). Anyone else have feelings either way?
The second I think. (I feel about the same for topics in which I have shown interest, so it’s not about my level of interest.)
If I wanted to force a conversation about a particular subculture or hot-button topic not obviously related to rationality, and I were called out on it, I could probably contrive a defensible list of ways my desired subject relates to rationality. For example, I took your list of bullet points for PUA and adapted most of them to race and IQ (a subject I’m more familiar with):
Instrumental rationality (IQ relates to indicators of life success, so one can argue about the degree to which IQ is a measure of instrumental rationality)
The availability heuristic (use of convenience sampling when testing psychological subjects; availability bias as a source of racial stereotypes about IQ)
Underdetermination of theory by evidence, and the problem of induction; how much ad hoc support which should allow to a theory about race differences in IQ before we trash it
Self-fulfilling prophecies (stereotype threat and other situations where a white or black person’s beliefs influence performance on IQ tests; how the social impact of race and IQ theories might perpetuate the IQ gaps those theories try to explain)
Empiricism (psychologists involved in the argument do their best to present themselves as grounded in the facts, and the extent to which they succeed is a possible jumping-off point off discussion)
Kuhnian paradigms (historical shift of the IQ argument from ‘it’s in the genes’ to ‘it’s all the environment’ to an uncomfortable, hedging mixture of the two)
Lakatos’ notions of progressive vs. degenerative research programs (Nuff said)
Demarcation criterion (is the argument about race and IQ even a scientific one? Which contributions to it should be considered scientific?)
Naive realism vs. instrumentalism (psychologists’ obsession with defining ‘validity,’ in all its forms, often touches on this)
Heuristic and problem-solving with limited information (this is the kind of thing IQ tests try to test, but to what extent do they successfully do so? Do they do so without bias?)
In spite of the connections to rationality just listed, I’d expect a discussion of race and IQ to flirt with the failure modes of (1) adversarial nitpicking of minutiae and/or (2) arguing about the politics surrounding the topic and not the topic itself. The first time I walked into this argument on Less Wrong, I felt I ended up in the first failure mode. When it came up again in this month’s Open Thread, the poster starting the discussion seemed to want to discuss the politics of it, and I didn’t see the resulting subthread as casting new light on rationality.
I say this even though threads like that do often have people making and evaluating truth-claims; I just don’t count that kind of thing as ‘real’ rationality unless it could plausibly make a rationality lightbulb go off in my head (‘Ooooohhh, I never got Eliezer’s exposition of causal screening before, but this example totally makes it obvious to me’ - stuff like that). I can find intelligent arguments about various subcultures and issues elsewhere on the internet—I expect something else, or maybe something more specific, from LW.
This doesn’t mean I don’t/can’t/won’t learn about rationality in a hands on way—applying what you learn is how you know you’ve learned it. Still, on LW I expect discussions presented as ‘here is a general point about rationality, demonstrated with a few little examples from my pet issue’ to stay on topic more effectively than if they’re presented as ‘here is my pet issue with a side serving of rationality,’ and I expect that whether or not I can draw abstract connections between my pet topic and rationality.
Hmmm. I’ve written a lot here because I don’t feel like I’m adequately communicating what I mean. I suppose what I’m thinking is something like a generalization of ‘Politics is the Mind-Killer’ - even things tangentially related to rationality can mind-kill, so I’m wary about what I label on-topic. Quite likely more wary than whoever’s reading this.
On a side note, I tried profiling (albeit crudely) a thread about a hot topic to find out how well it focused on relevant data and the elements of rationality discussed on LW. I picked this month’s Open Thread’s subthread about race and IQ because it wasn’t very long and I posted in it, so I had some idea how it progressed. On each comment I ticked off whether it
talked about actual evidence about race and/or IQ
made a testable prediction about race and IQ
referred to specific Less Wrongian heuristics or concepts that I recognized, like ‘applause lights’ or ‘privileging the hypothesis’ (I didn’t count generic pro-truth statements like ‘freedom to look for the truth is sacrosanct’)
with the rationale that comments that did any of these were more likely to be rationality-relevant than those that didn’t. (I also tried ticking off which comments were mostly focused on politics and which weren’t, but I couldn’t do that quickly and fairly, so I didn’t bother.) Here’s my data for anyone who wants to check my work.
The subthread has 74 comments: 13 mentioned evidence, 3 made a testable prediction, 10 explicitly made connections to LWish heuristics and catchphrases, and 50 did none of these. Those 50 comments had a mean score of 2.7; the 24 comments that mentioned data/predictions/rationality tropes had a mean score of 2.4.
That suggests that not only were the overtly rationality-ish comments outnumbered, but they scored more poorly. I wouldn’t want to generalize from this quick little survey, but I do wonder whether the same trend would show up in arguments about feminism, PUA, global warming, 9/11, or other subjects that can be controversial here.
Regarding the ratios of comment types have you compared that at all to subthreads about other topics, possibly less controversial ones? Without some idea of the usual level for an equivalent LW conversation about a less controversial topic, it is very hard to evaluate this data.
I’m not sure incidentally that I agree with your breakdown of comments. For example, you include the comment that started off the conversation as in none of the categories. Even just asking a worthwhile question should be worth something. And since this comment was at +17, even just by removing it we already substantially alter the average score of the 50 nones. The score goes from 2.7 to 2.4. This also illustrates another issue which is that if even a single comment can cause that sort of change then it doesn’t seem like this sort of data is statistically significant. Frankly, after realizing that, I’m not that inclined to check the rest of your data since that already puts the two at both 2.4 on average.
The fact that it seems like this comment itself would be put into the none category when I’ve made criticisms of the interpretation of evidence suggests that your break down isn’t great. (Please forgive the mild amount of self-reference.)
It would be interesting to see what the patterns would be like in other subthreads. I sampled only the one subthread because I was curious about variation among comments within the single subthread and not variation between subthreads, so I figured one subthread would be enough.
It’s certainly not perfect! I would have liked to have used a finer and more sensitive breakdown, but it would have become difficult to apply. I tried to invent the simplest breakdown I could think of that wouldn’t need much subjective judgment, and could approximate the types of discussion HughRistik had in mind.
That’s true—my list of categories is conservative, so some well-regarded comments that didn’t discuss data, predictions, or heuristics nonetheless didn’t end up in a category. That said, although my category list wasn’t exhaustive, I did still expect about as many comments to fit a category as there were comments that fitted none—I was genuinely surprised to get a 2⁄3 to 1⁄3 split.
Fair point. The distribution of comment scores in that subthread is very skewed with a few outliers:
If I drop the four high scorers on the far tail I can recalculate the averages for the ‘nones’ versus the non-‘none’ comments without the influence of those outliers. The 47 remaining nones’ scores have mean 2.0 and the 23 remaining non-nones have a mean score of 1.8; the gap shrinks, but it’s still there.
If I did a statistical test of the difference, it likely would be statistically insignificant (and it’d likely have been insignificant even before dropping the outliers) - but that’s OK, because I don’t mean to generalize from that one subthread’s comments to the population of all comments.
Yes—if I planned to apply the breakdown to other subthreads, I’d add a category for comments that criticize or discuss evidence mentioned by someone else. Fortunately, it shouldn’t make much difference for the particular subthread I picked—I don’t remember any of the comments making detailed criticisms of other people’s evidence.
Piling on to this excellent comment, I have a more specific interest in “how scientific is NLP”.
That is indeed a good question that I don’t know the answer to. Though it has been my impression that some of the ideas in NLP are parasitic on mainstream psychology. For example, “anchoring” seems related to classical conditioning.
I think it is a species of logical rudeness to judge an idea by its worst advocates. I’m sure any atheists who have been reminded that Hitler was an atheist can sympathize.
Neil Strauss (author of The Game) recently made some good points:
I think we’re talking past each other. I’m not talking about judging the ideas, I’m talking about judging the worst advocates. Those people are the ones who cause the revulsion, and we as a community need to deny them the spotlight when they act up until they learn better. Otherwise the community comes off as not being a rationalist community, and aspiring rationalists who might be interested walk away.
I don’t even think we’ve been doing a bad job overall. But it’s a job we’re doing, not something that happens automatically.
And this is where differing perceptions are probably causing issues. I haven’t seen any posts here from anyone who is anything nearing the worst advocates, but then I’ve hung around places where these topics are discussed much more confrontationally. I’ve seen nothing I deem worthy of censorship from the advocates, even the ‘worst’, but I have seen examples of what I view as completely unacceptable over-reaction, revulsion and guilt tripping from a small but vocal minority who claim offense.
I am very unsympathetic by nature to people who claim the right to block any conversation that they personally find offensive. My natural reaction to such people is to become more offensive, which while it has some merit from a game-theoretic standpoint is generally not conducive to social decorum so I make an effort to restrain such impulses. So for me, those people are the ones who cause revulsion, and we as a community need to deny them the spotlight when they act up until they learn better. Otherwise the community comes off as not being a rationalist community, and aspiring rationalists who might be interested walk away. So far people who share your perceptions seem to carry the support of the majority but I think there is a significant minority that share my perceptions.
Despite some of the rhetoric flying around at the time, I don’t think anyone involved made that sort of claim. It was rather more like “I find this sort of thing offensive” and “Maybe we should listen to him, since lots of people probably would be turned away by that sort of thing, and the offensive bits aren’t really necessary.”
See Eliezer’s contribution, Of Exclusionary Speech and Gender Politics. Nutshell: We should avoid doing things that make people feel excluded, and that includes being sensitive and not being all feministy. So basically we want both of the potentially-interested groups you’ve identified to stay.
ETA: Surely I’ve overstated my case. Eliezer did suggest that he didn’t think it would be a problem to ban PUA if it bothered people; the main idea is that PUA isn’t that important of a topic in the grand scheme of things, so whatever.
It’s not an either-or proposition, I think. I’ll freely concede that I haven’t been particularly sensitive to those sharing your revulsion for political correctness*, but it would be a mistake to offend either group to flatter the other. It’s possible—it’s even been done here—to hold these discussions in a way which is fair to both sides.
It’s just hard. Which is why it’s usually a bad idea to go there.
* I apologize if my terminology is incorrect.
Agree with first quoted sentence. Disagree with second one.
In my view, LessWrong should be a place where we rationally attempt to discuss subjects that would be too controversial to discuss anywhere else. On LessWrong, we can hold arguments in such discussions to higher standards of scrutiny than anywhere else.
I don’t agree with the “it’s hard, so we should give up” approach to discussing controversial subjects on LessWrong. Controversial, mind-killing subjects are exactly where rationalist scrutiny is most needed.
Here’s a potential conflict in our views of LW’s purpose. I think of it as being about discussing rationality, and things that touch directly on rationality and being rational. In that case discussing controversial, mind-killing subjects is only relevant inasmuch as they cast light on rationality—they’re not inherently interesting.
I’ve posted here before about race/IQ and global warming, and for both of those I’ve felt as if I was covering territory that’s basically offtopic. This didn’t stop me from posting about them, or make me feel bad about it, but I did feel that if I had picked arguments about those topics just because I could, that wouldn’t have suited LW’s purpose. I would avoid writing a top-level post about subjects like that unless I thought it was a good way to make a compelling, more general point about rationality—otherwise I’d likely just be axe-grinding.
To me, it seems obvious that there a lot of links between pickup and rationality (both positive and negative). It’s occurred to me that perhaps I’ve been over-estimating the obviousness of those links to others who don’t have the same background in the subject matter, so I’ve tried to sketch out a bunch of them in my reply to RobinZ.
I’m down with a “one does not simply walk into PUA” attitude. I apologize for not saying so.
We may need a category of “this is too hard for us now”, with the possibility left open that as more of us get better at rationality, more difficult topics can be addressed well.
Your terminology is fine. The asymmetry that disturbs me is that while ‘political correctness’ annoys the hell out of me I’m not demanding for it to be a banned topic of conversation to avoid offending my delicate sensibilities. I don’t consider the causing of offense by particular views or topics to be a valid reason to avoid them. Note that this is different from discussing them in a deliberately offensive manner. I generally dislike an unnecessary impolite or aggressive tone to discussions but objecting to an entire topic is going too far in my opinion.
You’re correct. My “usually” was an attempt to acknowledge this—in retrospect, not a competent one.
If we are still having this discussion could you link to a couple examples of the posts that you object to so much? I’m trying to figure out whether I missed something, or how similar my perceptions are to yours.
I can’t point to any specific examples.
I haven’t read the worst advocates. My negative reaction was based on reading material by average or possibly somewhat above average advocates.
I wonder what the common reaction to feminism is here. It’s got at least as wide a range as PUA.
I broadly agree with the feminist project and think they have done more good than harm. I also have the following criticisms
Feminists too often mistake the complex, dynamic and context-dependent way status/power actually works for an oversimplified “patriarchy” where men as a class oppress women as a class.
This means feminism is much more sensitive to sexism against women and will routinely miss or play down sexism against men. This wouldn’t be a problem except that feminism has sort of universalist aspirations; they’re often more like a special interest group.
Feminism sometimes advocates taking political roles that can be oppressive, in much the same way gender roles can. This is partly why the movement has had trouble embracing transgendered people, BDSM, porn stars, sex workers etc. (And why the views of so-called ‘radical’ feminists still can’t accept these groups)
Despite talking a lot about intersectionality, the core feminist institutions are more like a voice for Western, white, upper middle class women than for women as a whole. (A criticism I feel kind of like a dick making as I am all of those things+ a man, but it’s true).
The movement isn’t a good place for a young man to make his social home because as a woman’s movement the place for men in it is in the background and the primary way the movement relates to men is in their defense of women from men (which is fine, politically, it just is a terrible way for a young man to relate to himself).
The thing is, there isn’t a movement for gender equality. It seems to be very hard to motivate people to work on things without building in a group identity, and the group identity is us vs. them. Or have I spent too much time reading people who work that way, and there are alternatives I haven’t seen?
I’ve wondered whether people have a bias towards bad ideas. Simple good sense isn’t dramatic enough (or possibly doesn’t offer enough opportunities for power seeking) to get attention easily.
Still, there’s some good work being done, and I think of this as an effort to figure out how to live well with other people—something which is surprisingly difficult.
Well, humans seem to be wired that way, so anyone you’ve met who works differently has done so deliberately and is very strange.
That sounds like ‘radical feminism’, and it’s not so much a mistake of the ‘feminism’ as it is of the ‘radical’. Marx did the same thing with class.
Feminists actually have a lot of complex, dynamic, and context-dependent reasons for focusing on sexism against women, ranging from being a radical feminist, to thinking sexism against women is the bigger problem that needs to be dealt with, to thinking that’s what ‘feminism’ is about by definition and someone else should have the job of being sensitive to sexism against men. It’s one reason “women’s studies” programs in universities have been slowly converting themselves over to “gender studies”, to drop the female-centric nature as it’s no longer needed.
This has been internally considered a big problem for a long time, and now remains a problem only if you look at Western, white, upper middle class feminist institutions specifically.
Indeed. There are a lot of crazies out there. But I’d make the same case for just about any ‘movement’.
Well, my sense is that the simple view is (a) what the radicals hold and (b) what those who don’t get into the theory end up believing. It’s kind of like how the Catholic church itself doesn’t think God is necessary for morality but this view is common among evangelicals and unstudied Catholics.
Being a radical feminist isn’t really a reason for doing something, what are the reasons for being a radical feminist? Anyway, my understanding of the radfem position is that there is no such thing as sexism against men, so yes, they’re not going to be paying a lot of attention to sexism against men.
These reasons I’m pretty much fine with (and mostly agree with), which is why the problem isn’t that they aren’t good at noticing sexism against men but that they’re aren’t good at noticing sexism and take themselves to be giving a universal and unbiased perspective on gender issues. Feminism has problems being both the major vehicle for gender egalitarianism and the major vehicle for empowering women. The contradictions here were extremely minimal when feminism started out, but of course the more success feminism has the more this contradiction will come into play.
I agree that it has been a problem internally. And maybe I need to make this more clear: I basically have one foot in the camp and one foot outside it, so some (maybe even most) of my criticisms are things that feminists have said themselves. I’m not sure I know what you mean by “remains a problem only if you look at …”. I don’t think there are many feminist institutions that identify themselves as Western, white and upper middle class. If you mean the institutions that are made up of mostly Western, white and upper class women then I suppose I agree with you except that these are the best funded, most influential and, for the rest of the culture, defining institutions for feminism. My experience reading non-white, poor and non-Western women on this subject suggests they still perceive many of the same problems that spurred the initial intersectionality critique.
I think my original comment made it clear why I think feminism is particularly problematic in this regard but if it didn’t let me know and I’ll clarify.
Yes, I’d have to grant you that, and I think the rest follows.
I get the impression it’s moving in the opposite direction. The shrill radical sorts are being de-emphasized (not least since everyone noticed political correctness is silly), and as I noted “women’s studies” is slowly transforming into “gender studies”.
The major battlegrounds now, as I see them, are on exactly these sorts of questions. Is gender egalitarianism possible? Is it valuable? Are there factors which explain things like income disparity, and what, if anything, should we do about them?
But then, I haven’t really been following the literature for a couple of years.
I see what you mean here. I think it’s part of the same process. Equating gender egalitarianism with empowering women doesn’t make quite as much sense as it once did. And for this reason radical feminists are losing influence, their message doesn’t resonate like it used to. But at the same time aspects of the radical view haven been embedded in a lot of feminist 101 stuff (just think, for example, about the concept of the patriarchy) and mainstream/liberal feminism is having a really hard time getting away from that.
Sounds like we’re on roughly the same page.
Personally my general reaction to feminism is negative but it appears to encompass a sufficiently diverse range of viewpoints that I find myself agreeing with some subset of those viewpoints. My impression is that rationality is not a strong feature of feminist thought but I recognize that I have probably been mostly exposed to the worst advocates.
The most convincing advocate of feminist ideas I have encountered is Kerry Howley. I think I can probably stomach feminist ideas she espouses because they are sugar coated in a libertarian wrapper. I’m not even sure that she would self-describe as a feminist but I feel that what sympathy I have for feminist ideas can in large part be credited to her writing.
I like Kerry Howley too. She does self-describe as a feminist. She’s in the tradition of Voltairine de Cleyre.
I grew discouraged by feminism as represented by, say, the writers at feministe. There was a great deal of opposition to thinking the wrong thoughts. But you’re right, it’s an extraordinarily broad area, to the point of (almost) not being a useful term.
I think there is a parallel to the complaints about the PUA discussions here. I’ve often seen feminist ideas presented in a tone of hostility and misandry and embedded in a whole heap of background assumptions and beliefs that I do not share. I can read some of the same ideas from someone like Kerry Howley and appreciate that they are actually quite reasonable and compatible with my own views because I am not immediately on the defensive and looking for disagreement.
I also feel this way about criticisms of feminism. A lot of it comes from this entitled, resentful and misogynist place which aggravates me. I find that even among the most reasonable critics of feminism this attitude has a tendency to come out from time to time.
Is there anything in particular of Kerry Howley’s that you recommend?
This might be interesting—it’s an analysis of the similarities between feminist descriptions of the patriarchy and libertarian descriptions of the state, with the suggestion that libertarians and feminists could learn quite a bit from each other.
Here’s a few on libertarianism/feminism:
Libertarian Feminism versus Monarchist Anarchism
Feminism and Libertarianism Again
Does the Word Feminism Mean Anything
And on reproductive/sexual issues:
Notes on My Life Sentence of Buried Self-Negation
Trying Really Hard to Get Upset About Pornography
Might There Be a Connection Between Slut Shaming and Slut Jailing
The Myth of the Migrant
Thanks for the link, it’s an interesting article. I don’t find much to take issue with there—I generally agree with their analysis. Unfortunately I see little evidence of any progress towards reconciliation.
I find the focus on radicalism as a common trait interesting. I see parallels with coverage of the financial crisis where I basically agree with much of the analysis of people like Matt Taibbi or Simon Johnson and James Kwak on the root causes of the financial crisis but have a rather different idea of what needs to be done to fix the problem. The ideas of a feminist-libertarian alliance and a left-libertarian alliance have many commonalities.
Agreed. Still my point remains, to what extent should a group stop doing certain activities to accommodate hypothetical future members who might or might not join even if the group ceases doing said activities.
A fair question, though it’s worth noting that those particular activities were also annoying some current members.
Indeed—at the time, at least two of the site’s “top contributors” were specifically put off by it.
I actually don’t see why lurkers as lurkers should have a political constituency. They don’t contribute to the site by definition. Any given lurker is welcome to become a poster and then they will be part of their own political constituency.
I wasn’t saying that they should, just that they don’t.
Even so, it’s possible that they should have a constituency of sorts if you want the site to grow.
If that is the case, then it certainly is not because of a general “Everyone is entitled to discuss whatever they want here” principle, as such a principle does not exist. The site’s purpose is rationality, and anything that serves that goal is allowed, and anything that does not is suspect.
Did you even read the OP? He specifically mentioned the subject of mastering interpersonal relationships and I was answering to that.
-edit-
The thing is, that’s an odd response. Look at the flow here:
Roland sez: should we really give up discussing PUA just to make women feel more comfortable?
Kaiokan sez: I don’t expect that many women on the site in the first place, because of XYZ, where XYZ is a fairly ambitious claim that’s likely to be disputed in itself.
Without XYZ, I think most of us, men and women, could agree on the basic point you’re trying to make, that is, we expect more men than women on the site. So why bring up XYZ? It doesn’t actually have a function in your argument other than the fact that you like it and you found an excuse to bring it up. (I’m often guilty of this too, but I suspect it’s bad logical hygiene and I’m trying to get rid of those habits.)
As for the actual question… well, it depends if we can trust ourselves to handle it well. Apparently the convention around here is that we don’t bring up topics that totally overwhelm rationality, because we’re trying to practice rationality. But ultimately we do live in a world where hot-button subjects exist and we have to respond to them one way or another, and potentially not just by avoidance. For somebody from my environment, and it seems for many others, the topic of PUA is a challenge. Maybe a fun challenge. But possibly one we can’t handle well (yet).
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You need to back up that particular non-obvious statement with the reasons which are currently convincing you of that statement, yes. Your response to research suggesting that the factors you cite are nonpermanent would be appreciated.
Thank you for not wanting to sound intolerant. As a rule, though, if you don’t know how to say what you want to say without disclaiming it, you have a lot of work to do before saying it.
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That’s not what I meant—your disclaimer was a warning from yourself that you should not be confident that you have avoided saying something intolerant. In such a case, simple editing is rarely the solution; if you don’t understand the situation enough to be justly confident to start with, you don’t understand it well enough to confidently make edits.
In this case, you have repeated a number of strong claims about sex differences without acknowledging any of the evident cultural factors—it is these specific features of your comment which are likely to make you appear intolerant, and they are (ironically) more prominent after your edit.
I think you are being a little unfair. He stated two fairly well established psychological facts (greater variance in intelligence and differences on the empathizing–systemizing scale), a personality tendency with decent ev-psych support (lone-wolf) and a reasonable extrapolated hypothesis from these tendencies (male dominance of computing/math/engineering disciplines). He then made a clearly flagged personal prediction based on these observations that we are unlikely to ever see a high percentage of female commenters here given the subject matter.
Any interpretation of a nature/nurture assumption is coming from you. He merely noted the differences and did not express an opinion on the reason for them. We can do better than the Larry Summers Harvard debacle here. Address the evidence for the claims or the specific reasons why a different tone would be preferred rather than engaging in pre-emptive censorship.
Apologies for the delay—this is not a field in which i have particular knowledge, and so it took me some time to track down an appropriate reference (h/t Jezebel blogger Anna North): Janet S. Hyde and Janet E. Mertz, “Gender, culture, and mathematics performance”, PNAS, vol. 106 no. 22, June 2, 2009 8801-8807, doi: 10.1073/pnas.0901265106.
Thanks, this is the sort of specific evidence I was hoping for. I’ll take a look.
Intelligence is a vague, multi-faceted word. Whenever intelligence is mentioned in a comparative or quantitative way, care should be taken to indicate exactly which dimension of intelligence is being measured. Since the dimensions of intelligence probably aren’t well parametrized, it would be sufficient to indicate the particular test that was being used. Otherwise, the biases that sneak in are less traceable. In experimental science, it is a really good norm they’ve established to always include the detailed context and methodology of the experiment, so current researchers can estimate and predict biases and figure out ‘what went wrong’ when they get a different result under different conditions.
For example, if it was a standard IQ test that determined the variance in male intelligence, I have an understanding of the biases in those tests, and if it was comparing income, I have an understanding of the biases there. When it comes to experimental studies in social science and psychology, I always weight their result low compared to my own observations of a lifetime, because if I’ve observed anything, I’ve observed that things are complex, and I know we haven’t developed tools to handle this complexity.
Yes, the world is a complex place. Yes, any finding in the social sciences may not show what it purports to show due to biases and flaws in the methodology. We can do better here than simply ignoring all evidence on the basis that it might be wrong however. Remember that ‘belief’ in some idea is not a binary thing, 0 and 1 are not probabilities, all beliefs are open to future revision in either direction in light of new evidence. A rationalist should be trying to refine their degree of belief by asking questions and doing further research.
Greater variance in male performance is both a widely observed phenomenon in many domains and something that you would expect to see given the differing selection pressures on males and females. It need not be an emotionally laden observation since it is not inherently implying that either gender is ‘better’ than the other in some way, it is merely an observed regularity of our world.
So if you dispute the evidence for greater variance in male performance generally and in intelligence measures specifically please address your criticisms to specifics. What specifically are the biases in standard IQ tests or measures of income that you have an understanding of and how do they act to produce misleading results? What other data (experimental is preferable but anecdotal is admissible for consideration) do you have to offer on this issue? This is a perfect example of a question we can collectively apply our rationality to in order to improve the accuracy of our probability estimates.
Or don’t. Just say ‘I don’t believe any of this evidence should influence my beliefs because the world is complex and evidence can be wrong’ if you choose. But do not pretend that that is either a noble or rational stance to take on an issue.
I agree that we can do better.
I have a thought on these studies that give evidence for unequal intelligence between the sexes (or races.) They can have very scary, emotional connotations. They used to scare me. Then I thought about it a bit and asked “What am I scared of?” And I realized that I was scared that, if these genetic inequalities were real, I’d have to be a sexist or racist.
But think for a minute. Suppose the “worst-case scenario” were true. Suppose women really did have worse brains than men, for genetic reasons. What would be my logical response?
It occurred to me that the only responsible way to react to such news would be to treat it as a disease to be cured. And then start working on biology to fix it. I am not an anti-Semite because I’m aware that Tay-Sachs disease affects Ashkenazic Jews.
If there were genetic differences between sexes or races, I’d be less likely to favor affirmative action at the college or employment level, because it wouldn’t be effective. The injustice would be biological, not social, and it would be best fixed biologically.
The real reason people are scared of genetic differences is the naturalistic fallacy. Just because an inequality is natural doesn’t mean it’s good. If some people have the misfortune to have low IQ’s for genetic reasons, and if higher IQ would make their lives better, then shouldn’t we be working on fixing that?
(Note: this is not an argument that IQ differences exist or are meaningful. I’m just arguing that if they turn out to be real, there are non-sexist, non-racist ways to deal with that reality. I’m of the belief now that knowing what reality is like can never be intrinsically immoral.)
With the caveat that a biological injustice and a social injustice are not mutually exclusive—there may be genetic differences between sexes/races, but that would not eliminate the possibility of additional unnecessary social barriers to college or work.
ETA: I should also have remembered that ‘biological’ does not equal ‘genetic.’
Surely the injustice here, if any, is that different individuals are differently intelligent, not that the average varies across groups?
Mostly, yes.
Though there’s an added harm if the average varies across groups, especially groups where membership is easy to recognize. Because then, people (reasonably) make generalizations, and high-IQ members of a low-IQ group are harmed by negative opinions. Add in the fact that people have biases, and stereotyping is likely to go even beyond what’s reasonable, so the problem becomes even worse.
But yes, if some individuals have low IQ for genetic reasons (or other reasons beyond their control) I consider it a bad thing and we ought to see about fixing it. I think Eliezer made this point earlier.
The injustice is that each individual is not maximally intelligent. The variance in intelligence between individuals just means that this is more unjust for some people than others.
I agree that’s the main bad thing, but I’m not sure it would be properly called an “injustice”, and I have strong reservations about the “maximally”.
I’m not sure whether I’d want to be maximally intelligent. You could say the injustice is that individuals are less intelligent than would be optimal for their flourishing, or whatever.
One of the major concerns here are Gattaca-type scenarios, where when you’re looking for very smart people you’ll throw out all of the applications from females to maximize your odds of getting a very smart person. Obviously someone with the time to look at every application wouldn’t do that, as the smartest applicant could still be a female. But usually there are some factors that you use first to throw away some of the stack so you don’t have to look at them all.
That may be happening already. (Statistical discrimination is one model for employment discrimination, and as I recall it doesn’t hold up too badly; better than the Becker model, at least.) It’s not an intrinsically “Gattaca” idea.
Of course, in a world where there was a biological “fix” for low IQ, you’d have the issue of whether it should be voluntary (I’d say yes) and whether people who don’t opt for it should get preference from schools and employers (I’d say no, but tentatively) and what to do about access (it’s complicated.) But I’m fairly confident that if IQ matters for real life outcomes, then a world where it can be improved technologically is a better one.
Yeah, I think this is a common reaction and it’s not an entirely unreasonable reaction because sexism and racism are bad. But as you’ve realized it is better to know the truth if you want to influence the world in a direction consistent with your values.
Just to be clear though, the claim is not that men are ‘more intelligent’ than women. It is that men have greater variance. This means more geniuses and more morons. It only carries value connotations if you believe more variance is inherently ‘better’, not if you believe higher intelligence is better. If you look at the scandal over Larry Summers’ comments on this issue you will see that the vast majority of people who were offended by his comments did not understand this distinction.
Yes, this is the key. It is always better to know the truth if you wish to effectively influence the future. You still get to choose your own values though—if the way things are is not the way you think they should be then believing true things is your best bet for effectively resolving that discrepancy in a favourable way.
Yeah, I’m aware about the variance thing. The “geniuses” side of the graph stands out to me more, but probably only because of personal relevance. (I never took an IQ test but I’d guess I’m more likely top half than bottom half.) But you’re right, if there were higher variance among men, and if IQ mattered, then I’d believe we were also obligated to do something about low-IQ males.
Richard Whitmire (see http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/whyboysfail/) convinced me that there’s a serious educational problem among US and European boys. He examines the education system, not IQ, but if some of it turns out to be biological then we should be working on that too.
I think the problems with the education system in the US and Europe are more fundamental than just that it is failing boys. The real problem is that we have an educational system adapted for early 20th century industrial societies that for institutional reasons has been unable to adapt to a completely transformed economic and social landscape. The most obvious victims are certain groups of boys but the whole system is completely unsuited to the modern world and is structured in a way that makes it largely incapable of correctly diagnosing or doing anything to fix the problems.
You and everybody else
Yes, but usually, when a grad student in mathematics believes she has above median intelligence with respect to the general population, she will turn out to be right.
The question isn’t necessarily whether men in general are better than women in general. The active question seems to be whether it’s alright for women to get high status positions.
The active question in what context? Clearly the variance issue has no bearing on this question. Whether greater variance in intelligence is a real phenomenon potentially has bearing on questions regarding whether institutional sexism in certain academic disciplines is a real issue and on the appropriateness of quota systems or ‘positive discrimination’ but I don’t see how anyone who understood the issue could claim that it was not ‘alright’ for women to hold high status positions. I’m sure some people make that unrelated claim but people believe all sorts of crazy shit.
You read way too much into my comment!
The issue seems to be, in your misreading of my comment, that you expect I feel emotional about gender issues, and perhaps feel threatened indiscriminately by any statements about gender and intelligence. But I don’t. It happens that I’m not generally concerned about gender issues and am not on the look out to defend them. Personally, I don’t anticipate feeling threatened by any statements that might be true about gender.
On issues on which I am emotional (they exist), I feel much less threatened by statements if they are either clearly personal opinions/impressions or scientific statements that carry the specifics with them. I feel that if the specifics are there, I can trust that there is enough information to vet the statement, if needed, in the present or the future, and thus prevent inappropriate application. If the statement is a personal opinion/impression, we know the appropriate application of that.
So if the point is to discuss issues “rationally”, without stirring up emotions, then it would be a good norm to always signal clearly whether a statement is a personal opinion/impression OR a scientific claim. If the latter, it is the careful inclusion of the methodology/context that makes it scientific.
I apologize for jumping to conclusions. This is sort of why I think getting into specifics is important. If you just make a vague hand-wavey ‘this might not be true’ dismissal of a claim you leave your interlocutor with little choice but to try and guess what your true objection is and so read too much into your comment.
This isn’t what I did. My criticism was fairly focused, with a fairly specific solution:
The part that had you thinking I was dismissing the claim was probably this:
It probably would have been wise to omit this sentence, since it caused so much bias about my intentions. My idea is that researchers do try to tackle complex subjects, like intelligence, and will measure something or do some experiment and report the results, but the interpretation or relevance of the study is all ‘spin’ in the Abstract or heavily dependent upon the reader’s lifetime experience to understand the relevance.
For example, what is “intelligence”? This is something that a group of researchers have to define, and have to measure in some way, in order to do their study and get it published. Consider the Dreary study. They’ve measured something and called it general intelligence. This part is the spin. However, when you look at how they defined “general intelligence”—this is a scientific paper; they do tell us, and they’re specific—it is patent that they didn’t include social intelligence, emotional intelligence or “street smarts” in this conception of intelligence. Requiring this clarification isn’t dismissing the study results, it’s just emphasizing that the context and the specifics are important.
See the Deary study of practically the entire population of Scottish 11 year-olds, which found greater male variability. The introduction of the study also discusses the history of the greater male variability hypothesis, and some of the evidence for it.
There is a cross-cultural study which found that males have higher variance in most populations, but females do in others. (Of course, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the difference is “cultural,” though it could.) I will try to dig it up. Even so, greater male variability is a robust finding.
This is the bit that I think is important when discussing results about intelligence:
However, I’m not saying you need to include this information in your comment because you already made the context specific: the Deary study. So a person can dig deeper and find these details if they want to.
Just to say, you didn’t actually support this. Unless it is supported in the Dreary study?
It’s supported at least by the combination of the Deary study, and the cross-cultural study I mentioned that I’ll have to look up when I get home. I believe the author was Feingold. Good question, though.
Oh, I see I parsed your sentence wrong anyway. I thought there were some unidentified number of studies that showed women had greater variability.
My bad… The Feingold study is a meta-analyses of studies, some that find greater male variability, and some that find greater female variability in various dimensions.
huh. Well, does this control for age? The population should be around age 20, when both genders are at peak mental capacity.
This does not seem like an apt reply to the above. This:
Is a particularly bad straw man. “I weight their result low” seems to be doing the sort of thing you advocate, as opposed to “no influence”.
Do you disagree with the general stance presented, that the methodology/context of an experimental study matters, and these things should be taken into consideration when evaluating their effects on our beliefs?
No, and I would welcome discussion of the specific issues that people are taking into account, as I said. I am open to the possibility that there is some major flaw that renders these results questionable that I have not previously encountered. What I am objecting to is precisely the lack of such specifics. It is not enough to say that things are complex and studies can be flawed or misleading. These are trivially true facts and to imply that your interlocutor is unaware of them on Less Wrong of all places is disingenuous.
There have been a few comments in this thread that are taking the same kind of approach—dismissing the claims on the basis of unspecified flaws in the supporting evidence but never offering specific rebuttals to any of the disputed claims.
Don’t worry, I also have a terrible style. Just continue practicing, it takes a lot of time to become a good writer. Eliezer has written some posts touching on this subject.
I’m not sure how this would come off as intolerant, though my detector for that stuff has been off the last couple of days.
Anyway, whether or not you’re right pretty much depends on what you mean by “substantial”. Off the top of my head I can think of five or six female regulars. That isn’t too shabby. There aren’t that many regulars, period. Considering this is (a) the internet, and (b) a place where a bunch of computer nerds talk about science and philosophy I think that’s actually quite good! It would be nice if the ratio is was a little better, but I don’t think anyone here actually thinks it would ever get past 1:4. And I think we’re okay with that. As long as it doesn’t become like 1:100.
I wonder if we should focus so much on the gender inequality. Nowadays everything seems to operate under the assumption that gender equality in numbers is a desideratum. I don’t know if we should operate under this assumption unless we want to signal that we are conforming to the Zeitgeist.
If the site’s purpose is rationality should it matter if there is a majority of males? I agree of course that females should be welcome and treated with respect, but the same applies to anybody. Midgets should also be welcome and treated with respect as should people who were born in airplanes over the Atlantic. And don’t forget the people with green eyes and black hair, they too deserve respect.
This was the issue. The way PUA was being discussed made some women here feel unwelcome and disrespected.
Of course not. No one expects there to ever be anything but a majority of males. But the community would be better off if the ratio wasn’t as skewed as it is. Some reasons:
Gender diversity means experience diversity and neuro-diversity, these things let us catch blind spots. The fact that we are men means there will be experiences we aren’t aware of and it is helpful to have people with those experiences around to fill in the gaps. This of course goes for all kinds of socially significant diversity.
Women, on average, appear to be less confrontational and aggressive in their discussions here (I don’t know if this is learned or innate). People with such demeanors are good to have around as the rest of us appear to get our egos caught up in arguments a lot.
One ostensible goal of this site is to help spread rationality. Alienating large segments of the the potential convert pool is a bad idea.
The general consensus appears to be that Less Wrong would be better if it were larger, it speeds up our hypothesis generation capabilities and decreases the chances of us missing things. Again, alienating large segments of the potential commenter pool is a bad idea.
Can we please move past this simplistic anti-political correctness attitude where we pretend deep social categories are equivalent to eye color?
What I don’t understand is why we’re having this meta-level discussion again. All these points have been made before and whatever has been said about a ban, it is quite clear that anyone can talk about PUA without negative consequences provided they do so in a respectful manner, take into account differences between women etc. Is it that important that our discussions about what women find attractive offend women?
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Huh? It’s not like anyone is advocating affirmative action or extra karma for women. Some of the women here (in addition to some of the men) objected to the exclusionary, objectifying language, overly broad generalizations and ethically ambiguous advice that went hand in hand with the way some people were discussing Pick-Up Artistry.
We want people with good ideas, no? Then if possible, let’s avoid alienating groups of people who may have good ideas, and perhaps just as importantly, different ideas. Diversity is how you catch blind spots.
Sometimes movements change after they get founded. Arguing from founders is like arguing that a word’s current meaning is the same as its derivation.
Why are you starting shit? We’ve had rather pleasant and informative discussions on pu and pu related topics this month.
I think this comment is at like +5 −8, unless someone is just changing their vote a lot. I’ve been trying to avoid asking about the occasional downvote, but this keeps fluctuating so I have to ask. I’m confused about what people dislike so much. I can’t imagine the downvotes are just about using profanity. I only commented because didn’t understand why we were diving into an inflammatory meta-conversation, complete with accusations of gender inequity, when the object-level conversations had been going fine.
I would guess that the profanity is enough to explain the low score. Aside from that, “Why are you starting shit” seems at least rude and also carries a host of connotations including a belligerent nature.
Jack, it wasn’t my intention to start “shit”(using your words). I’m writing on PU based on what I remember reading about this in the past on this website, and I’ve been a member here since the days where this was still overcomingbias.com. I wasn’t aware of the current discussion but even so I don’t think it invalidates my point if you bother to read what I wrote.