So there is more concern about a gender that is underrepresented(people that are not even here) but that could hypothetically contribute more members in the future as for those who are active or passive(lurkers) members in this community and have great interest and could possibly learn a lot from this topic.
That’s a very interesting point. I suspect it’s because there’s a lot of social pressure to assume that something is wrong if a group contains no or few women, while the lurkers don’t have a political constituency.
I think it would be worthwhile for LW to be a more comfortable place for women, but figuring out how to encourage people who are already interested and would be valuable contributors to post is important even though it doesn’t have obvious signaling value.
And for those women/men who don’t want to read about PU why not ignore the respective articles?
All I can say is that people don’t necessarily work like that. If they don’t have a strong preference for a social group, they aren’t going to ignore things they don’t like.
Also, a common reaction to PUA isn’t “don’t want”, it’s revulsion. There’s a spread effect.
All I can say is that people don’t necessarily work like that. If they don’t have a strong preference for a social group, they aren’t going to ignore things they don’t like.
Also, a common reaction to PUA isn’t “don’t want”, it’s revulsion. There’s a spread effect.
I think roland’s point is that neither of these reactions are terribly appropriate for a community of aspiring rationalists. The conflict between this and the desire for broader appeal is really at the heart of the issue.
Personally I am an ‘elitist prick’, at least in the context of this site. I want to be able to freely discuss things that are not usually discussed because of revulsion reactions. Robin Hanson’s fearless approach to this is what originally drew me to Overcoming Bias. I have plenty of real world friends and acquaintances to discuss safe topics with, the value to me of this site is the ability to discuss things that are not safe topics amongst normal people.
Have you noticed that the people who are remembered as making the most accurate and useful observations about PUA are the same people who didn’t cause the disgust reaction?
Also, remember that every post we promote is another possible first impression. I wouldn’t want to join a community of people, mostly men, describing Women as an undifferentiated mass distinguished by an array of mental flaws to be exploited for personal gain—that’s a sign of some hardcore irrationality, to make claims which are that self-aggrandizing and that easily refuted. (Easily refuted because they are hasty generalizations, I hastily add.)
Edit: I’ll admit that I’m exaggerating the degree of bad rhetoric displayed here during the whole PUA flamewar, but the point about the hasty generalizations shouldn’t be ignored—I know too many people who don’t fit the stereotypes promoted in those discussions to view these stereotypes sympathetically.
I wouldn’t want to join a community of people, mostly men, describing Women as an undifferentiated mass distinguished by an array of mental flaws to be exploited for personal gain—that’s a sign of some hardcore irrationality, to make claims which are that self-aggrandizing and that easily refuted.
I wouldn’t want to join a community that did those things, or which uncritically praised a community that did. Still, I think that even if the seduction community were an undifferentiated mass of irrationality, it would be worth discussing here for the same reasons that we talk about religion and astrology.
Personally, when I see people being successful in a certain domain (or believing that they are successful), yet holding some obviously irrational beliefs, my interest is piqued. If these people are successful, is that despite their irrational beliefs, or could it be because of those beliefs? Could it be that some of the beliefs of PUAs work even though they are not true?
I don’t understand why other rationalists wouldn’t be wondering the same things, even when confronted with the negative aspects of pickup. As I’ve argued in the past here and here, pickup relates to many rationality topics:
Instrumental rationality (how to succeed according to one’s criteria for success)
The availability heuristic (the theories of PUAs are based on the women they most commonly encounter, and the most salient experiences with those women; the opinions of outsiders on the seduction community are also subject to the availability heuristic)
Underdetermination of theory by evidence, and the problem of induction; how much ad hoc support which should allow to a theory about social interaction before we trash it
Self-fulfilling prophecies (to what extent believing certain notions about oneself makes them come true in social interaction; how believing certain PUA theories and acting on them might produce experiences that appear to confirm those theories)
Empiricism (PUAs advocate “field testing” ideas about how to interact with women)
Kuhnian paradigms (the theories of PUAs have gone through several Kuhnian revolutions, and PUAs tend to interpret their experiences within the reigning paradigms in the community)
Lakatos’ notions of progressive vs. degenerative research programs (to what extent do the theories of PUAs allow them to make predictions of novel facts? How progressive is the research program of PUAs?)
Demarcation criterion (some PUAs claim that their teachings are based on “science”… to what extent is pickup scientific?)
Naive realism vs. instrumentalism (many practices of PUAs work, but to what extent are the theories behind them actually true?)
Heuristic and problem-solving with limited information (how do solve the problem of a lack of social knowledge, given only one’s own anecdotal observations and those of others? What theshold of evidence you should accept for a certain piece of advice before you act on it?)
The psychology of influence and persuasion, status, and signalling (revealing biases in how people perceive each other)
Perhaps I’ve been committing the “typical mind fallacy” by assuming that just because these links between pickup and rationality are obvious to me, that they are also obvious to others.
We appear to have a topic that has a lot of connections to rationality, some of which have been discussed here with a lot of approval, judging by upvotes. There are also people who discuss this topic in a non-rigorous way that causes feelings of repugnance in many observers. In my view, the relevance of pickup to rationality and the philosophy of science is so great that we would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to discourage discussion of the topic. The solution is to discuss this topic in a rigorous way, and the connections to rationality made clear. When the topic is discussed in a non-rigorous and repugnance-causing way, the appropriate recourse is the reply button and the downvote button.
I appreciate your list of connections between PUA and rationality, because it’s gotten me closer to working out why I don’t see PUA as having a special connection to rationality.
I think it’s because I find the connections you suggest generic. Most of them, I reckon, would hold for any subculture with a sufficiently active truth-seeking element, such as (picking a few examples out of thin air, so they may not be good examples, but I hope they communicate my point) poker, art valuation, or trading card gaming. Though I’d guess that each of these topics has links to rationality like those you mention, in depth discussion of them on LW would tend to feel off-topic to me.
This doesn’t really relate to the more typical complaints about PUA that I see upthread—i.e. that some of the discussion of it grosses people out, and that it’s inaccurately reductive—but I thought I’d add my two cents to convey my mental context for my last reply.
Thanks for giving additional context. I think you are correct that we have a difference of opinion. Personally, I would be absolutely thrilled to see a discussion on LessWrong of how poker, art valuation, or trading card gaming relate to rationality. Would these subjects not interest you, or is your worry that discussion of them would get too far off-topic to a degree that is bad?
I suppose delving very deep into those subjects could also feel off-topic to me if the connection to rationality was lost, yet I would be comfortable with whatever level of depth people more knowledgeable than me on those subject felt was necessary to elucidate the links to rationality. (And if other people were making truth-claims about the content of those disciplines, and those people often displayed bias or misunderstanding in either a laudatory or critical direction, I would be comfortable seeing those truth-claims evaluated. Even if debate about the merits or nature of a subjects gets away from the direct relationship of that subject to rationality, that debate itself may demonstrate applications of rationality to a controversial subject, which I like to see.)
Your mileage may vary, but I find that I learn in a “hands on” way, and attempting to apply rationality to a practical problem helps me attain a more abstract understanding. See the notion of Contract to Expand, where sometimes solving a specific sub-problem can be helpful for solving a larger, more general problem.
I would consider any subculture or discipline with a “sufficiently active truth-seeking element” to be excellent LessWrong fodder, as long as the discussion (a) was connected to rationality, or (b) addressed the nature of the subcultures and disciplines so that readers can know how they work well enough to evaluate their potential relationship to rationality (particularly if there is disagreement on that nature or relationship). Anyone else have feelings either way?
Would these subjects not interest you, or is your worry that discussion of them would get too far off-topic to a degree that is bad?
The second I think. (I feel about the same for topics in which I have shown interest, so it’s not about my level of interest.)
If I wanted to force a conversation about a particular subculture or hot-button topic not obviously related to rationality, and I were called out on it, I could probably contrive a defensible list of ways my desired subject relates to rationality. For example, I took your list of bullet points for PUA and adapted most of them to race and IQ (a subject I’m more familiar with):
Instrumental rationality (IQ relates to indicators of life success, so one can argue about the degree to which IQ is a measure of instrumental rationality)
The availability heuristic (use of convenience sampling when testing psychological subjects; availability bias as a source of racial stereotypes about IQ)
Underdetermination of theory by evidence, and the problem of induction; how much ad hoc support which should allow to a theory about race differences in IQ before we trash it
Self-fulfilling prophecies (stereotype threat and other situations where a white or black person’s beliefs influence performance on IQ tests; how the social impact of race and IQ theories might perpetuate the IQ gaps those theories try to explain)
Empiricism (psychologists involved in the argument do their best to present themselves as grounded in the facts, and the extent to which they succeed is a possible jumping-off point off discussion)
Kuhnian paradigms (historical shift of the IQ argument from ‘it’s in the genes’ to ‘it’s all the environment’ to an uncomfortable, hedging mixture of the two)
Lakatos’ notions of progressive vs. degenerative research programs (Nuffsaid)
Demarcation criterion (is the argument about race and IQ even a scientific one? Which contributions to it should be considered scientific?)
Naive realism vs. instrumentalism (psychologists’ obsession with defining ‘validity,’ in all its forms, often touches on this)
Heuristic and problem-solving with limited information (this is the kind of thing IQ tests try to test, but to what extent do they successfully do so? Do they do so without bias?)
In spite of the connections to rationality just listed, I’d expect a discussion of race and IQ to flirt with the failure modes of (1) adversarial nitpicking of minutiae and/or (2) arguing about the politics surrounding the topic and not the topic itself. The first time I walked into this argument on Less Wrong, I felt I ended up in the first failure mode. When it came up again in this month’s Open Thread, the poster starting the discussion seemed to want to discuss the politics of it, and I didn’t see the resulting subthread as casting new light on rationality.
I say this even though threads like that do often have people making and evaluating truth-claims; I just don’t count that kind of thing as ‘real’ rationality unless it could plausibly make a rationality lightbulb go off in my head (‘Ooooohhh, I never got Eliezer’s exposition of causal screening before, but this example totally makes it obvious to me’ - stuff like that). I can find intelligent arguments about various subcultures and issues elsewhere on the internet—I expect something else, or maybe something more specific, from LW.
This doesn’t mean I don’t/can’t/won’t learn about rationality in a hands on way—applying what you learn is how you know you’ve learned it. Still, on LW I expect discussions presented as ‘here is a general point about rationality, demonstrated with a few little examples from my pet issue’ to stay on topic more effectively than if they’re presented as ‘here is my pet issue with a side serving of rationality,’ and I expect that whether or not I can draw abstract connections between my pet topic and rationality.
Hmmm. I’ve written a lot here because I don’t feel like I’m adequately communicating what I mean. I suppose what I’m thinking is something like a generalization of ‘Politics is the Mind-Killer’ - even things tangentially related to rationality can mind-kill, so I’m wary about what I label on-topic. Quite likely more wary than whoever’s reading this.
On a side note, I tried profiling (albeit crudely) a thread about a hot topic to find out how well it focused on relevant data and the elements of rationality discussed on LW. I picked this month’s Open Thread’s subthread about race and IQ because it wasn’t very long and I posted in it, so I had some idea how it progressed. On each comment I ticked off whether it
talked about actual evidence about race and/or IQ
made a testable prediction about race and IQ
referred to specific Less Wrongian heuristics or concepts that I recognized, like ‘applause lights’ or ‘privileging the hypothesis’ (I didn’t count generic pro-truth statements like ‘freedom to look for the truth is sacrosanct’)
with the rationale that comments that did any of these were more likely to be rationality-relevant than those that didn’t. (I also tried ticking off which comments were mostly focused on politics and which weren’t, but I couldn’t do that quickly and fairly, so I didn’t bother.) Here’s my data for anyone who wants to check my work.
The subthread has 74 comments: 13 mentioned evidence, 3 made a testable prediction, 10 explicitly made connections to LWish heuristics and catchphrases, and 50 did none of these. Those 50 comments had a mean score of 2.7; the 24 comments that mentioned data/predictions/rationality tropes had a mean score of 2.4.
That suggests that not only were the overtly rationality-ish comments outnumbered, but they scored more poorly. I wouldn’t want to generalize from this quick little survey, but I do wonder whether the same trend would show up in arguments about feminism, PUA, global warming, 9/11, or other subjects that can be controversial here.
Regarding the ratios of comment types have you compared that at all to subthreads about other topics, possibly less controversial ones? Without some idea of the usual level for an equivalent LW conversation about a less controversial topic, it is very hard to evaluate this data.
I’m not sure incidentally that I agree with your breakdown of comments. For example, you include the comment that started off the conversation as in none of the categories. Even just asking a worthwhile question should be worth something. And since this comment was at +17, even just by removing it we already substantially alter the average score of the 50 nones. The score goes from 2.7 to 2.4. This also illustrates another issue which is that if even a single comment can cause that sort of change then it doesn’t seem like this sort of data is statistically significant. Frankly, after realizing that, I’m not that inclined to check the rest of your data since that already puts the two at both 2.4 on average.
The fact that it seems like this comment itself would be put into the none category when I’ve made criticisms of the interpretation of evidence suggests that your break down isn’t great. (Please forgive the mild amount of self-reference.)
Regarding the ratios of comment types have you compared that at all to subthreads about other topics, possibly less controversial ones? Without some idea of the usual level for an equivalent LW conversation about a less controversial topic, it is very hard to evaluate this data.
It would be interesting to see what the patterns would be like in other subthreads. I sampled only the one subthread because I was curious about variation among comments within the single subthread and not variation between subthreads, so I figured one subthread would be enough.
I’m not sure incidentally that I agree with your breakdown of comments.
It’s certainly not perfect! I would have liked to have used a finer and more sensitive breakdown, but it would have become difficult to apply. I tried to invent the simplest breakdown I could think of that wouldn’t need much subjective judgment, and could approximate the types of discussion HughRistik had in mind.
For example, you include the comment that started off the conversation as in none of the categories. Even just asking a worthwhile question should be worth something.
That’s true—my list of categories is conservative, so some well-regarded comments that didn’t discuss data, predictions, or heuristics nonetheless didn’t end up in a category. That said, although my category list wasn’t exhaustive, I did still expect about as many comments to fit a category as there were comments that fitted none—I was genuinely surprised to get a 2⁄3 to 1⁄3 split.
This also illustrates another issue which is that if even a single comment can cause that sort of change then it doesn’t seem like this sort of data is statistically significant.
Fair point. The distribution of comment scores in that subthread is very skewed with a few outliers:
If I drop the four high scorers on the far tail I can recalculate the averages for the ‘nones’ versus the non-‘none’ comments without the influence of those outliers. The 47 remaining nones’ scores have mean 2.0 and the 23 remaining non-nones have a mean score of 1.8; the gap shrinks, but it’s still there.
If I did a statistical test of the difference, it likely would be statistically insignificant (and it’d likely have been insignificant even before dropping the outliers) - but that’s OK, because I don’t mean to generalize from that one subthread’s comments to the population of all comments.
The fact that it seems like this comment itself would be put into the none category when I’ve made criticisms of the interpretation of evidence suggests that your break down isn’t great.
Yes—if I planned to apply the breakdown to other subthreads, I’d add a category for comments that criticize or discuss evidence mentioned by someone else. Fortunately, it shouldn’t make much difference for the particular subthread I picked—I don’t remember any of the comments making detailed criticisms of other people’s evidence.
That is indeed a good question that I don’t know the answer to. Though it has been my impression that some of the ideas in NLP are parasitic on mainstream psychology. For example, “anchoring” seems related to classical conditioning.
I think it is a species of logical rudeness to judge an idea by its worst advocates. I’m sure any atheists who have been reminded that Hitler was an atheist can sympathize.
Neil Strauss (author of The Game) recently made some good points:
When I wrote The Game and went on to do the press, I told myself that I would neither DEFEND nor ATTACK the seduction community. I’d simply present the truth as it was, the good and the bad.
However, the more interviews I did, the more I realized I was going to have to defend something: The right of guys to learn this.
Anyone who’s ever seen the front page of Cosmopolitan or Sex in the City knows that self-help, sexual improvement, dating advice, and attraction skills is an accepted rite of passage for women.
There is no equivalent for men: We are simply shown images of women we are supposed to desire in the pages of Maxim and Playboy, then not told what to do about it.
People get tutored for everything else in life. If you can’t do math, you get a tutor. Sex in the City was women getting tutored in what to do with different types of men. I think the coolest thing someone could do is recognize their weakness and work to improve it.
When guys ask me questions, it’s usually not about what to do to trick a woman into bed — it’s about how to get over heart- break, whether Alexander Technique will improve their posture, whether improv classes will make them more spontaneous,
what to do about “this one special girl,” how to dress, and so on.
Though some of the “gurus” may have their issues, 99.9 percent of the guys I met learning this are the NICE GUYS. They are the guys women always say they are looking for, yet at the same time are never attracted to.
Usually, the true assholes, jerks, and misogynists are too cocky and arrogant to even consider that they might need to “learn” how to interact with women.
So anyone who’s going to get on a bully pulpit and demonize men for trying to improve themselves is not a friend of mine.
And any pundit who’s going to criticize men for manipulation when that’s exactly what their show producers regularly do to their guests is not a friend of mine.
I think we’re talking past each other. I’m not talking about judging the ideas, I’m talking about judging the worst advocates. Those people are the ones who cause the revulsion, and we as a community need to deny them the spotlight when they act up until they learn better. Otherwise the community comes off as not being a rationalist community, and aspiring rationalists who might be interested walk away.
I don’t even think we’ve been doing a bad job overall. But it’s a job we’re doing, not something that happens automatically.
And this is where differing perceptions are probably causing issues. I haven’t seen any posts here from anyone who is anything nearing the worst advocates, but then I’ve hung around places where these topics are discussed much more confrontationally. I’ve seen nothing I deem worthy of censorship from the advocates, even the ‘worst’, but I have seen examples of what I view as completely unacceptable over-reaction, revulsion and guilt tripping from a small but vocal minority who claim offense.
I am very unsympathetic by nature to people who claim the right to block any conversation that they personally find offensive. My natural reaction to such people is to become more offensive, which while it has some merit from a game-theoretic standpoint is generally not conducive to social decorum so I make an effort to restrain such impulses. So for me, those people are the ones who cause revulsion, and we as a community need to deny them the spotlight when they act up until they learn better. Otherwise the community comes off as not being a rationalist community, and aspiring rationalists who might be interested walk away. So far people who share your perceptions seem to carry the support of the majority but I think there is a significant minority that share my perceptions.
I am very unsympathetic by nature to people who claim the right to block any conversation that they personally find offensive.
Despite some of the rhetoric flying around at the time, I don’t think anyone involved made that sort of claim. It was rather more like “I find this sort of thing offensive” and “Maybe we should listen to him, since lots of people probably would be turned away by that sort of thing, and the offensive bits aren’t really necessary.”
See Eliezer’s contribution, Of Exclusionary Speech and Gender Politics. Nutshell: We should avoid doing things that make people feel excluded, and that includes being sensitive and not being all feministy. So basically we want both of the potentially-interested groups you’ve identified to stay.
ETA: Surely I’ve overstated my case. Eliezer did suggest that he didn’t think it would be a problem to ban PUA if it bothered people; the main idea is that PUA isn’t that important of a topic in the grand scheme of things, so whatever.
It’s not an either-or proposition, I think. I’ll freely concede that I haven’t been particularly sensitive to those sharing your revulsion for political correctness*, but it would be a mistake to offend either group to flatter the other. It’s possible—it’s even been done here—to hold these discussions in a way which is fair to both sides.
It’s just hard. Which is why it’s usually a bad idea to go there.
It’s just hard. Which is why it’s usually a bad idea to go there.
Agree with first quoted sentence. Disagree with second one.
In my view, LessWrong should be a place where we rationally attempt to discuss subjects that would be too controversial to discuss anywhere else. On LessWrong, we can hold arguments in such discussions to higher standards of scrutiny than anywhere else.
I don’t agree with the “it’s hard, so we should give up” approach to discussing controversial subjects on LessWrong. Controversial, mind-killing subjects are exactly where rationalist scrutiny is most needed.
I don’t agree with the “it’s hard, so we should give up” approach to discussing controversial subjects on LessWrong. Controversial, mind-killing subjects are exactly where rationalist scrutiny is most needed.
Here’s a potential conflict in our views of LW’s purpose. I think of it as being about discussing rationality, and things that touch directly on rationality and being rational. In that case discussing controversial, mind-killing subjects is only relevant inasmuch as they cast light on rationality—they’re not inherently interesting.
I’ve posted here before about race/IQ and global warming, and for both of those I’ve felt as if I was covering territory that’s basically offtopic. This didn’t stop me from posting about them, or make me feel bad about it, but I did feel that if I had picked arguments about those topics just because I could, that wouldn’t have suited LW’s purpose. I would avoid writing a top-level post about subjects like that unless I thought it was a good way to make a compelling, more general point about rationality—otherwise I’d likely just be axe-grinding.
To me, it seems obvious that there a lot of links between pickup and rationality (both positive and negative). It’s occurred to me that perhaps I’ve been over-estimating the obviousness of those links to others who don’t have the same background in the subject matter, so I’ve tried to sketch out a bunch of them in my reply to RobinZ.
We may need a category of “this is too hard for us now”, with the possibility left open that as more of us get better at rationality, more difficult topics can be addressed well.
Your terminology is fine. The asymmetry that disturbs me is that while ‘political correctness’ annoys the hell out of me I’m not demanding for it to be a banned topic of conversation to avoid offending my delicate sensibilities. I don’t consider the causing of offense by particular views or topics to be a valid reason to avoid them. Note that this is different from discussing them in a deliberately offensive manner. I generally dislike an unnecessary impolite or aggressive tone to discussions but objecting to an entire topic is going too far in my opinion.
If we are still having this discussion could you link to a couple examples of the posts that you object to so much? I’m trying to figure out whether I missed something, or how similar my perceptions are to yours.
I broadly agree with the feminist project and think they have done more good than harm. I also have the following criticisms
Feminists too often mistake the complex, dynamic and context-dependent way status/power actually works for an oversimplified “patriarchy” where men as a class oppress women as a class.
This means feminism is much more sensitive to sexism against women and will routinely miss or play down sexism against men. This wouldn’t be a problem except that feminism has sort of universalist aspirations; they’re often more like a special interest group.
Feminism sometimes advocates taking political roles that can be oppressive, in much the same way gender roles can. This is partly why the movement has had trouble embracing transgendered people, BDSM, porn stars, sex workers etc. (And why the views of so-called ‘radical’ feminists still can’t accept these groups)
Despite talking a lot about intersectionality, the core feminist institutions are more like a voice for Western, white, upper middle class women than for women as a whole. (A criticism I feel kind of like a dick making as I am all of those things+ a man, but it’s true).
The movement isn’t a good place for a young man to make his social home because as a woman’s movement the place for men in it is in the background and the primary way the movement relates to men is in their defense of women from men (which is fine, politically, it just is a terrible way for a young man to relate to himself).
The thing is, there isn’t a movement for gender equality. It seems to be very hard to motivate people to work on things without building in a group identity, and the group identity is us vs. them. Or have I spent too much time reading people who work that way, and there are alternatives I haven’t seen?
I’ve wondered whether people have a bias towards bad ideas. Simple good sense isn’t dramatic enough (or possibly doesn’t offer enough opportunities for power seeking) to get attention easily.
Still, there’s some good work being done, and I think of this as an effort to figure out how to live well with other people—something which is surprisingly difficult.
It seems to be very hard to motivate people to work on things without building in a group identity, and the group identity is us vs. them. Or have I spent too much time reading people who work that way, and there are alternatives I haven’t seen?
Well, humans seem to be wired that way, so anyone you’ve met who works differently has done so deliberately and is very strange.
Feminists too often mistake the complex, dynamic and context-dependent way status/power actually works for an oversimplified “patriarchy” where men as a class oppress women as a class.
That sounds like ‘radical feminism’, and it’s not so much a mistake of the ‘feminism’ as it is of the ‘radical’. Marx did the same thing with class.
This means feminism is much more sensitive to sexism against women and will routinely miss or play down sexism against men. This wouldn’t be a problem except that feminism has sort of universalist aspirations; they’re often more like a special interest group.
Feminists actually have a lot of complex, dynamic, and context-dependent reasons for focusing on sexism against women, ranging from being a radical feminist, to thinking sexism against women is the bigger problem that needs to be dealt with, to thinking that’s what ‘feminism’ is about by definition and someone else should have the job of being sensitive to sexism against men. It’s one reason “women’s studies” programs in universities have been slowly converting themselves over to “gender studies”, to drop the female-centric nature as it’s no longer needed.
Despite talking a lot about intersectionality, the core feminist institutions are more like a voice for Western, white, upper middle class women then for women as a whole. (A criticism I feel kind of like a dick making as I am all of those things+ a man, but it’s true).
This has been internally considered a big problem for a long time, and now remains a problem only if you look at Western, white, upper middle class feminist institutions specifically.
The movement isn’t a good place for a young man to make his social home
Indeed. There are a lot of crazies out there. But I’d make the same case for just about any ‘movement’.
Feminists too often mistake the complex, dynamic and context-dependent way status/power actually works for an oversimplified “patriarchy” where men as a class oppress women as a class.
That sounds like ‘radical feminism’, and it’s not so much a mistake of the ‘feminism’ as it is of the ‘radical’. Marx did the same thing with class.
Well, my sense is that the simple view is (a) what the radicals hold and (b) what those who don’t get into the theory end up believing. It’s kind of like how the Catholic church itself doesn’t think God is necessary for morality but this view is common among evangelicals and unstudied Catholics.
Feminists actually have a lot of complex, dynamic, and context-dependent reasons for focusing on sexism against women, ranging from being a radical feminist,
Being a radical feminist isn’t really a reason for doing something, what are the reasons for being a radical feminist? Anyway, my understanding of the radfem position is that there is no such thing as sexism against men, so yes, they’re not going to be paying a lot of attention to sexism against men.
to thinking sexism against women is the bigger problem that needs to be dealt with, to thinking that’s what ‘feminism’ is about by definition and someone else should have the job of being sensitive to sexism against men.
These reasons I’m pretty much fine with (and mostly agree with), which is why the problem isn’t that they aren’t good at noticing sexism against men but that they’re aren’t good at noticing sexism and take themselves to be giving a universal and unbiased perspective on gender issues. Feminism has problems being both the major vehicle for gender egalitarianism and the major vehicle for empowering women. The contradictions here were extremely minimal when feminism started out, but of course the more success feminism has the more this contradiction will come into play.
This has been internally considered a big problem for a long time, and now remains a problem only if you look at Western, white, upper middle class feminist institutions specifically.
I agree that it has been a problem internally. And maybe I need to make this more clear: I basically have one foot in the camp and one foot outside it, so some (maybe even most) of my criticisms are things that feminists have said themselves. I’m not sure I know what you mean by “remains a problem only if you look at …”. I don’t think there are many feminist institutions that identify themselves as Western, white and upper middle class. If you mean the institutions that are made up of mostly Western, white and upper class women then I suppose I agree with you except that these are the best funded, most influential and, for the rest of the culture, defining institutions for feminism. My experience reading non-white, poor and non-Western women on this subject suggests they still perceive many of the same problems that spurred the initial intersectionality critique.
Indeed. There are a lot of crazies out there. But I’d make the same case for just about any ‘movement’.
I think my original comment made it clear why I think feminism is particularly problematic in this regard but if it didn’t let me know and I’ll clarify.
Well, my sense is that the simple view is (a) what the radicals hold and (b) what those who don’t get into the theory end up believing. It’s kind of like how the Catholic church itself doesn’t think God is necessary for morality but this view is common among evangelicals and unstudied Catholics.
Yes, I’d have to grant you that, and I think the rest follows.
Feminism has problems being both the major vehicle for gender egalitarianism and the major vehicle for empowering women. The contradictions here were extremely minimal when feminism started out, but of course the more success feminism has the more this contradiction will come into play.
I get the impression it’s moving in the opposite direction. The shrill radical sorts are being de-emphasized (not least since everyone noticed political correctness is silly), and as I noted “women’s studies” is slowly transforming into “gender studies”.
The major battlegrounds now, as I see them, are on exactly these sorts of questions. Is gender egalitarianism possible? Is it valuable? Are there factors which explain things like income disparity, and what, if anything, should we do about them?
But then, I haven’t really been following the literature for a couple of years.
I get the impression it’s moving in the opposite direction. The shrill radical sorts are being de-emphasized (not least since everyone noticed political correctness is silly), and as I noted “women’s studies” is slowly transforming into “gender studies”.
I see what you mean here. I think it’s part of the same process. Equating gender egalitarianism with empowering women doesn’t make quite as much sense as it once did. And for this reason radical feminists are losing influence, their message doesn’t resonate like it used to. But at the same time aspects of the radical view haven been embedded in a lot of feminist 101 stuff (just think, for example, about the concept of the patriarchy) and mainstream/liberal feminism is having a really hard time getting away from that.
Personally my general reaction to feminism is negative but it appears to encompass a sufficiently diverse range of viewpoints that I find myself agreeing with some subset of those viewpoints. My impression is that rationality is not a strong feature of feminist thought but I recognize that I have probably been mostly exposed to the worst advocates.
The most convincing advocate of feminist ideas I have encountered is Kerry Howley. I think I can probably stomach feminist ideas she espouses because they are sugar coated in a libertarian wrapper. I’m not even sure that she would self-describe as a feminist but I feel that what sympathy I have for feminist ideas can in large part be credited to her writing.
I like Kerry Howley too. She does self-describe as a feminist. She’s in the tradition of Voltairine de Cleyre.
I grew discouraged by feminism as represented by, say, the writers at feministe. There was a great deal of opposition to thinking the wrong thoughts. But you’re right, it’s an extraordinarily broad area, to the point of (almost) not being a useful term.
I think there is a parallel to the complaints about the PUA discussions here. I’ve often seen feminist ideas presented in a tone of hostility and misandry and embedded in a whole heap of background assumptions and beliefs that I do not share. I can read some of the same ideas from someone like Kerry Howley and appreciate that they are actually quite reasonable and compatible with my own views because I am not immediately on the defensive and looking for disagreement.
I also feel this way about criticisms of feminism. A lot of it comes from this entitled, resentful and misogynist place which aggravates me. I find that even among the most reasonable critics of feminism this attitude has a tendency to come out from time to time.
Is there anything in particular of Kerry Howley’s that you recommend?
This might be interesting—it’s an analysis of the similarities between feminist descriptions of the patriarchy and libertarian descriptions of the state, with the suggestion that libertarians and feminists could learn quite a bit from each other.
This might be interesting—it’s an analysis of the similarities between feminist descriptions of the patriarchy and libertarian descriptions of the state
Thanks for the link, it’s an interesting article. I don’t find much to take issue with there—I generally agree with their analysis. Unfortunately I see little evidence of any progress towards reconciliation.
I find the focus on radicalism as a common trait interesting. I see parallels with coverage of the financial crisis where I basically agree with much of the analysis of people like Matt Taibbi or Simon Johnson and James Kwak on the root causes of the financial crisis but have a rather different idea of what needs to be done to fix the problem. The ideas of a feminist-libertarian alliance and a left-libertarian alliance have many commonalities.
All I can say is that people don’t necessarily work like that. If they don’t have a strong preference for a social group, they aren’t going to ignore things they don’t like.
Agreed. Still my point remains, to what extent should a group stop doing certain activities to accommodate hypothetical future members who might or might not join even if the group ceases doing said activities.
while the lurkers don’t have a political constituency.
I actually don’t see why lurkers as lurkers should have a political constituency. They don’t contribute to the site by definition. Any given lurker is welcome to become a poster and then they will be part of their own political constituency.
That’s a very interesting point. I suspect it’s because there’s a lot of social pressure to assume that something is wrong if a group contains no or few women, while the lurkers don’t have a political constituency.
I think it would be worthwhile for LW to be a more comfortable place for women, but figuring out how to encourage people who are already interested and would be valuable contributors to post is important even though it doesn’t have obvious signaling value.
All I can say is that people don’t necessarily work like that. If they don’t have a strong preference for a social group, they aren’t going to ignore things they don’t like.
Also, a common reaction to PUA isn’t “don’t want”, it’s revulsion. There’s a spread effect.
I think roland’s point is that neither of these reactions are terribly appropriate for a community of aspiring rationalists. The conflict between this and the desire for broader appeal is really at the heart of the issue.
Personally I am an ‘elitist prick’, at least in the context of this site. I want to be able to freely discuss things that are not usually discussed because of revulsion reactions. Robin Hanson’s fearless approach to this is what originally drew me to Overcoming Bias. I have plenty of real world friends and acquaintances to discuss safe topics with, the value to me of this site is the ability to discuss things that are not safe topics amongst normal people.
Have you noticed that the people who are remembered as making the most accurate and useful observations about PUA are the same people who didn’t cause the disgust reaction?
Also, remember that every post we promote is another possible first impression. I wouldn’t want to join a community of people, mostly men, describing Women as an undifferentiated mass distinguished by an array of mental flaws to be exploited for personal gain—that’s a sign of some hardcore irrationality, to make claims which are that self-aggrandizing and that easily refuted. (Easily refuted because they are hasty generalizations, I hastily add.)
Edit: I’ll admit that I’m exaggerating the degree of bad rhetoric displayed here during the whole PUA flamewar, but the point about the hasty generalizations shouldn’t be ignored—I know too many people who don’t fit the stereotypes promoted in those discussions to view these stereotypes sympathetically.
I wouldn’t want to join a community that did those things, or which uncritically praised a community that did. Still, I think that even if the seduction community were an undifferentiated mass of irrationality, it would be worth discussing here for the same reasons that we talk about religion and astrology.
Personally, when I see people being successful in a certain domain (or believing that they are successful), yet holding some obviously irrational beliefs, my interest is piqued. If these people are successful, is that despite their irrational beliefs, or could it be because of those beliefs? Could it be that some of the beliefs of PUAs work even though they are not true?
I don’t understand why other rationalists wouldn’t be wondering the same things, even when confronted with the negative aspects of pickup. As I’ve argued in the past here and here, pickup relates to many rationality topics:
Instrumental rationality (how to succeed according to one’s criteria for success)
The availability heuristic (the theories of PUAs are based on the women they most commonly encounter, and the most salient experiences with those women; the opinions of outsiders on the seduction community are also subject to the availability heuristic)
Underdetermination of theory by evidence, and the problem of induction; how much ad hoc support which should allow to a theory about social interaction before we trash it
Self-fulfilling prophecies (to what extent believing certain notions about oneself makes them come true in social interaction; how believing certain PUA theories and acting on them might produce experiences that appear to confirm those theories)
Empiricism (PUAs advocate “field testing” ideas about how to interact with women)
Kuhnian paradigms (the theories of PUAs have gone through several Kuhnian revolutions, and PUAs tend to interpret their experiences within the reigning paradigms in the community)
Lakatos’ notions of progressive vs. degenerative research programs (to what extent do the theories of PUAs allow them to make predictions of novel facts? How progressive is the research program of PUAs?)
Demarcation criterion (some PUAs claim that their teachings are based on “science”… to what extent is pickup scientific?)
Naive realism vs. instrumentalism (many practices of PUAs work, but to what extent are the theories behind them actually true?)
Heuristic and problem-solving with limited information (how do solve the problem of a lack of social knowledge, given only one’s own anecdotal observations and those of others? What theshold of evidence you should accept for a certain piece of advice before you act on it?)
The psychology of influence and persuasion, status, and signalling (revealing biases in how people perceive each other)
Perhaps I’ve been committing the “typical mind fallacy” by assuming that just because these links between pickup and rationality are obvious to me, that they are also obvious to others.
We appear to have a topic that has a lot of connections to rationality, some of which have been discussed here with a lot of approval, judging by upvotes. There are also people who discuss this topic in a non-rigorous way that causes feelings of repugnance in many observers. In my view, the relevance of pickup to rationality and the philosophy of science is so great that we would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to discourage discussion of the topic. The solution is to discuss this topic in a rigorous way, and the connections to rationality made clear. When the topic is discussed in a non-rigorous and repugnance-causing way, the appropriate recourse is the reply button and the downvote button.
(Building on this earlier comment of mine.)
I appreciate your list of connections between PUA and rationality, because it’s gotten me closer to working out why I don’t see PUA as having a special connection to rationality.
I think it’s because I find the connections you suggest generic. Most of them, I reckon, would hold for any subculture with a sufficiently active truth-seeking element, such as (picking a few examples out of thin air, so they may not be good examples, but I hope they communicate my point) poker, art valuation, or trading card gaming. Though I’d guess that each of these topics has links to rationality like those you mention, in depth discussion of them on LW would tend to feel off-topic to me.
This doesn’t really relate to the more typical complaints about PUA that I see upthread—i.e. that some of the discussion of it grosses people out, and that it’s inaccurately reductive—but I thought I’d add my two cents to convey my mental context for my last reply.
Thanks for giving additional context. I think you are correct that we have a difference of opinion. Personally, I would be absolutely thrilled to see a discussion on LessWrong of how poker, art valuation, or trading card gaming relate to rationality. Would these subjects not interest you, or is your worry that discussion of them would get too far off-topic to a degree that is bad?
I suppose delving very deep into those subjects could also feel off-topic to me if the connection to rationality was lost, yet I would be comfortable with whatever level of depth people more knowledgeable than me on those subject felt was necessary to elucidate the links to rationality. (And if other people were making truth-claims about the content of those disciplines, and those people often displayed bias or misunderstanding in either a laudatory or critical direction, I would be comfortable seeing those truth-claims evaluated. Even if debate about the merits or nature of a subjects gets away from the direct relationship of that subject to rationality, that debate itself may demonstrate applications of rationality to a controversial subject, which I like to see.)
Your mileage may vary, but I find that I learn in a “hands on” way, and attempting to apply rationality to a practical problem helps me attain a more abstract understanding. See the notion of Contract to Expand, where sometimes solving a specific sub-problem can be helpful for solving a larger, more general problem.
I would consider any subculture or discipline with a “sufficiently active truth-seeking element” to be excellent LessWrong fodder, as long as the discussion (a) was connected to rationality, or (b) addressed the nature of the subcultures and disciplines so that readers can know how they work well enough to evaluate their potential relationship to rationality (particularly if there is disagreement on that nature or relationship). Anyone else have feelings either way?
The second I think. (I feel about the same for topics in which I have shown interest, so it’s not about my level of interest.)
If I wanted to force a conversation about a particular subculture or hot-button topic not obviously related to rationality, and I were called out on it, I could probably contrive a defensible list of ways my desired subject relates to rationality. For example, I took your list of bullet points for PUA and adapted most of them to race and IQ (a subject I’m more familiar with):
Instrumental rationality (IQ relates to indicators of life success, so one can argue about the degree to which IQ is a measure of instrumental rationality)
The availability heuristic (use of convenience sampling when testing psychological subjects; availability bias as a source of racial stereotypes about IQ)
Underdetermination of theory by evidence, and the problem of induction; how much ad hoc support which should allow to a theory about race differences in IQ before we trash it
Self-fulfilling prophecies (stereotype threat and other situations where a white or black person’s beliefs influence performance on IQ tests; how the social impact of race and IQ theories might perpetuate the IQ gaps those theories try to explain)
Empiricism (psychologists involved in the argument do their best to present themselves as grounded in the facts, and the extent to which they succeed is a possible jumping-off point off discussion)
Kuhnian paradigms (historical shift of the IQ argument from ‘it’s in the genes’ to ‘it’s all the environment’ to an uncomfortable, hedging mixture of the two)
Lakatos’ notions of progressive vs. degenerative research programs (Nuff said)
Demarcation criterion (is the argument about race and IQ even a scientific one? Which contributions to it should be considered scientific?)
Naive realism vs. instrumentalism (psychologists’ obsession with defining ‘validity,’ in all its forms, often touches on this)
Heuristic and problem-solving with limited information (this is the kind of thing IQ tests try to test, but to what extent do they successfully do so? Do they do so without bias?)
In spite of the connections to rationality just listed, I’d expect a discussion of race and IQ to flirt with the failure modes of (1) adversarial nitpicking of minutiae and/or (2) arguing about the politics surrounding the topic and not the topic itself. The first time I walked into this argument on Less Wrong, I felt I ended up in the first failure mode. When it came up again in this month’s Open Thread, the poster starting the discussion seemed to want to discuss the politics of it, and I didn’t see the resulting subthread as casting new light on rationality.
I say this even though threads like that do often have people making and evaluating truth-claims; I just don’t count that kind of thing as ‘real’ rationality unless it could plausibly make a rationality lightbulb go off in my head (‘Ooooohhh, I never got Eliezer’s exposition of causal screening before, but this example totally makes it obvious to me’ - stuff like that). I can find intelligent arguments about various subcultures and issues elsewhere on the internet—I expect something else, or maybe something more specific, from LW.
This doesn’t mean I don’t/can’t/won’t learn about rationality in a hands on way—applying what you learn is how you know you’ve learned it. Still, on LW I expect discussions presented as ‘here is a general point about rationality, demonstrated with a few little examples from my pet issue’ to stay on topic more effectively than if they’re presented as ‘here is my pet issue with a side serving of rationality,’ and I expect that whether or not I can draw abstract connections between my pet topic and rationality.
Hmmm. I’ve written a lot here because I don’t feel like I’m adequately communicating what I mean. I suppose what I’m thinking is something like a generalization of ‘Politics is the Mind-Killer’ - even things tangentially related to rationality can mind-kill, so I’m wary about what I label on-topic. Quite likely more wary than whoever’s reading this.
On a side note, I tried profiling (albeit crudely) a thread about a hot topic to find out how well it focused on relevant data and the elements of rationality discussed on LW. I picked this month’s Open Thread’s subthread about race and IQ because it wasn’t very long and I posted in it, so I had some idea how it progressed. On each comment I ticked off whether it
talked about actual evidence about race and/or IQ
made a testable prediction about race and IQ
referred to specific Less Wrongian heuristics or concepts that I recognized, like ‘applause lights’ or ‘privileging the hypothesis’ (I didn’t count generic pro-truth statements like ‘freedom to look for the truth is sacrosanct’)
with the rationale that comments that did any of these were more likely to be rationality-relevant than those that didn’t. (I also tried ticking off which comments were mostly focused on politics and which weren’t, but I couldn’t do that quickly and fairly, so I didn’t bother.) Here’s my data for anyone who wants to check my work.
The subthread has 74 comments: 13 mentioned evidence, 3 made a testable prediction, 10 explicitly made connections to LWish heuristics and catchphrases, and 50 did none of these. Those 50 comments had a mean score of 2.7; the 24 comments that mentioned data/predictions/rationality tropes had a mean score of 2.4.
That suggests that not only were the overtly rationality-ish comments outnumbered, but they scored more poorly. I wouldn’t want to generalize from this quick little survey, but I do wonder whether the same trend would show up in arguments about feminism, PUA, global warming, 9/11, or other subjects that can be controversial here.
Regarding the ratios of comment types have you compared that at all to subthreads about other topics, possibly less controversial ones? Without some idea of the usual level for an equivalent LW conversation about a less controversial topic, it is very hard to evaluate this data.
I’m not sure incidentally that I agree with your breakdown of comments. For example, you include the comment that started off the conversation as in none of the categories. Even just asking a worthwhile question should be worth something. And since this comment was at +17, even just by removing it we already substantially alter the average score of the 50 nones. The score goes from 2.7 to 2.4. This also illustrates another issue which is that if even a single comment can cause that sort of change then it doesn’t seem like this sort of data is statistically significant. Frankly, after realizing that, I’m not that inclined to check the rest of your data since that already puts the two at both 2.4 on average.
The fact that it seems like this comment itself would be put into the none category when I’ve made criticisms of the interpretation of evidence suggests that your break down isn’t great. (Please forgive the mild amount of self-reference.)
It would be interesting to see what the patterns would be like in other subthreads. I sampled only the one subthread because I was curious about variation among comments within the single subthread and not variation between subthreads, so I figured one subthread would be enough.
It’s certainly not perfect! I would have liked to have used a finer and more sensitive breakdown, but it would have become difficult to apply. I tried to invent the simplest breakdown I could think of that wouldn’t need much subjective judgment, and could approximate the types of discussion HughRistik had in mind.
That’s true—my list of categories is conservative, so some well-regarded comments that didn’t discuss data, predictions, or heuristics nonetheless didn’t end up in a category. That said, although my category list wasn’t exhaustive, I did still expect about as many comments to fit a category as there were comments that fitted none—I was genuinely surprised to get a 2⁄3 to 1⁄3 split.
Fair point. The distribution of comment scores in that subthread is very skewed with a few outliers:
If I drop the four high scorers on the far tail I can recalculate the averages for the ‘nones’ versus the non-‘none’ comments without the influence of those outliers. The 47 remaining nones’ scores have mean 2.0 and the 23 remaining non-nones have a mean score of 1.8; the gap shrinks, but it’s still there.
If I did a statistical test of the difference, it likely would be statistically insignificant (and it’d likely have been insignificant even before dropping the outliers) - but that’s OK, because I don’t mean to generalize from that one subthread’s comments to the population of all comments.
Yes—if I planned to apply the breakdown to other subthreads, I’d add a category for comments that criticize or discuss evidence mentioned by someone else. Fortunately, it shouldn’t make much difference for the particular subthread I picked—I don’t remember any of the comments making detailed criticisms of other people’s evidence.
Piling on to this excellent comment, I have a more specific interest in “how scientific is NLP”.
That is indeed a good question that I don’t know the answer to. Though it has been my impression that some of the ideas in NLP are parasitic on mainstream psychology. For example, “anchoring” seems related to classical conditioning.
I think it is a species of logical rudeness to judge an idea by its worst advocates. I’m sure any atheists who have been reminded that Hitler was an atheist can sympathize.
Neil Strauss (author of The Game) recently made some good points:
I think we’re talking past each other. I’m not talking about judging the ideas, I’m talking about judging the worst advocates. Those people are the ones who cause the revulsion, and we as a community need to deny them the spotlight when they act up until they learn better. Otherwise the community comes off as not being a rationalist community, and aspiring rationalists who might be interested walk away.
I don’t even think we’ve been doing a bad job overall. But it’s a job we’re doing, not something that happens automatically.
And this is where differing perceptions are probably causing issues. I haven’t seen any posts here from anyone who is anything nearing the worst advocates, but then I’ve hung around places where these topics are discussed much more confrontationally. I’ve seen nothing I deem worthy of censorship from the advocates, even the ‘worst’, but I have seen examples of what I view as completely unacceptable over-reaction, revulsion and guilt tripping from a small but vocal minority who claim offense.
I am very unsympathetic by nature to people who claim the right to block any conversation that they personally find offensive. My natural reaction to such people is to become more offensive, which while it has some merit from a game-theoretic standpoint is generally not conducive to social decorum so I make an effort to restrain such impulses. So for me, those people are the ones who cause revulsion, and we as a community need to deny them the spotlight when they act up until they learn better. Otherwise the community comes off as not being a rationalist community, and aspiring rationalists who might be interested walk away. So far people who share your perceptions seem to carry the support of the majority but I think there is a significant minority that share my perceptions.
Despite some of the rhetoric flying around at the time, I don’t think anyone involved made that sort of claim. It was rather more like “I find this sort of thing offensive” and “Maybe we should listen to him, since lots of people probably would be turned away by that sort of thing, and the offensive bits aren’t really necessary.”
See Eliezer’s contribution, Of Exclusionary Speech and Gender Politics. Nutshell: We should avoid doing things that make people feel excluded, and that includes being sensitive and not being all feministy. So basically we want both of the potentially-interested groups you’ve identified to stay.
ETA: Surely I’ve overstated my case. Eliezer did suggest that he didn’t think it would be a problem to ban PUA if it bothered people; the main idea is that PUA isn’t that important of a topic in the grand scheme of things, so whatever.
It’s not an either-or proposition, I think. I’ll freely concede that I haven’t been particularly sensitive to those sharing your revulsion for political correctness*, but it would be a mistake to offend either group to flatter the other. It’s possible—it’s even been done here—to hold these discussions in a way which is fair to both sides.
It’s just hard. Which is why it’s usually a bad idea to go there.
* I apologize if my terminology is incorrect.
Agree with first quoted sentence. Disagree with second one.
In my view, LessWrong should be a place where we rationally attempt to discuss subjects that would be too controversial to discuss anywhere else. On LessWrong, we can hold arguments in such discussions to higher standards of scrutiny than anywhere else.
I don’t agree with the “it’s hard, so we should give up” approach to discussing controversial subjects on LessWrong. Controversial, mind-killing subjects are exactly where rationalist scrutiny is most needed.
Here’s a potential conflict in our views of LW’s purpose. I think of it as being about discussing rationality, and things that touch directly on rationality and being rational. In that case discussing controversial, mind-killing subjects is only relevant inasmuch as they cast light on rationality—they’re not inherently interesting.
I’ve posted here before about race/IQ and global warming, and for both of those I’ve felt as if I was covering territory that’s basically offtopic. This didn’t stop me from posting about them, or make me feel bad about it, but I did feel that if I had picked arguments about those topics just because I could, that wouldn’t have suited LW’s purpose. I would avoid writing a top-level post about subjects like that unless I thought it was a good way to make a compelling, more general point about rationality—otherwise I’d likely just be axe-grinding.
To me, it seems obvious that there a lot of links between pickup and rationality (both positive and negative). It’s occurred to me that perhaps I’ve been over-estimating the obviousness of those links to others who don’t have the same background in the subject matter, so I’ve tried to sketch out a bunch of them in my reply to RobinZ.
I’m down with a “one does not simply walk into PUA” attitude. I apologize for not saying so.
We may need a category of “this is too hard for us now”, with the possibility left open that as more of us get better at rationality, more difficult topics can be addressed well.
Your terminology is fine. The asymmetry that disturbs me is that while ‘political correctness’ annoys the hell out of me I’m not demanding for it to be a banned topic of conversation to avoid offending my delicate sensibilities. I don’t consider the causing of offense by particular views or topics to be a valid reason to avoid them. Note that this is different from discussing them in a deliberately offensive manner. I generally dislike an unnecessary impolite or aggressive tone to discussions but objecting to an entire topic is going too far in my opinion.
You’re correct. My “usually” was an attempt to acknowledge this—in retrospect, not a competent one.
If we are still having this discussion could you link to a couple examples of the posts that you object to so much? I’m trying to figure out whether I missed something, or how similar my perceptions are to yours.
I can’t point to any specific examples.
I haven’t read the worst advocates. My negative reaction was based on reading material by average or possibly somewhat above average advocates.
I wonder what the common reaction to feminism is here. It’s got at least as wide a range as PUA.
I broadly agree with the feminist project and think they have done more good than harm. I also have the following criticisms
Feminists too often mistake the complex, dynamic and context-dependent way status/power actually works for an oversimplified “patriarchy” where men as a class oppress women as a class.
This means feminism is much more sensitive to sexism against women and will routinely miss or play down sexism against men. This wouldn’t be a problem except that feminism has sort of universalist aspirations; they’re often more like a special interest group.
Feminism sometimes advocates taking political roles that can be oppressive, in much the same way gender roles can. This is partly why the movement has had trouble embracing transgendered people, BDSM, porn stars, sex workers etc. (And why the views of so-called ‘radical’ feminists still can’t accept these groups)
Despite talking a lot about intersectionality, the core feminist institutions are more like a voice for Western, white, upper middle class women than for women as a whole. (A criticism I feel kind of like a dick making as I am all of those things+ a man, but it’s true).
The movement isn’t a good place for a young man to make his social home because as a woman’s movement the place for men in it is in the background and the primary way the movement relates to men is in their defense of women from men (which is fine, politically, it just is a terrible way for a young man to relate to himself).
The thing is, there isn’t a movement for gender equality. It seems to be very hard to motivate people to work on things without building in a group identity, and the group identity is us vs. them. Or have I spent too much time reading people who work that way, and there are alternatives I haven’t seen?
I’ve wondered whether people have a bias towards bad ideas. Simple good sense isn’t dramatic enough (or possibly doesn’t offer enough opportunities for power seeking) to get attention easily.
Still, there’s some good work being done, and I think of this as an effort to figure out how to live well with other people—something which is surprisingly difficult.
Well, humans seem to be wired that way, so anyone you’ve met who works differently has done so deliberately and is very strange.
That sounds like ‘radical feminism’, and it’s not so much a mistake of the ‘feminism’ as it is of the ‘radical’. Marx did the same thing with class.
Feminists actually have a lot of complex, dynamic, and context-dependent reasons for focusing on sexism against women, ranging from being a radical feminist, to thinking sexism against women is the bigger problem that needs to be dealt with, to thinking that’s what ‘feminism’ is about by definition and someone else should have the job of being sensitive to sexism against men. It’s one reason “women’s studies” programs in universities have been slowly converting themselves over to “gender studies”, to drop the female-centric nature as it’s no longer needed.
This has been internally considered a big problem for a long time, and now remains a problem only if you look at Western, white, upper middle class feminist institutions specifically.
Indeed. There are a lot of crazies out there. But I’d make the same case for just about any ‘movement’.
Well, my sense is that the simple view is (a) what the radicals hold and (b) what those who don’t get into the theory end up believing. It’s kind of like how the Catholic church itself doesn’t think God is necessary for morality but this view is common among evangelicals and unstudied Catholics.
Being a radical feminist isn’t really a reason for doing something, what are the reasons for being a radical feminist? Anyway, my understanding of the radfem position is that there is no such thing as sexism against men, so yes, they’re not going to be paying a lot of attention to sexism against men.
These reasons I’m pretty much fine with (and mostly agree with), which is why the problem isn’t that they aren’t good at noticing sexism against men but that they’re aren’t good at noticing sexism and take themselves to be giving a universal and unbiased perspective on gender issues. Feminism has problems being both the major vehicle for gender egalitarianism and the major vehicle for empowering women. The contradictions here were extremely minimal when feminism started out, but of course the more success feminism has the more this contradiction will come into play.
I agree that it has been a problem internally. And maybe I need to make this more clear: I basically have one foot in the camp and one foot outside it, so some (maybe even most) of my criticisms are things that feminists have said themselves. I’m not sure I know what you mean by “remains a problem only if you look at …”. I don’t think there are many feminist institutions that identify themselves as Western, white and upper middle class. If you mean the institutions that are made up of mostly Western, white and upper class women then I suppose I agree with you except that these are the best funded, most influential and, for the rest of the culture, defining institutions for feminism. My experience reading non-white, poor and non-Western women on this subject suggests they still perceive many of the same problems that spurred the initial intersectionality critique.
I think my original comment made it clear why I think feminism is particularly problematic in this regard but if it didn’t let me know and I’ll clarify.
Yes, I’d have to grant you that, and I think the rest follows.
I get the impression it’s moving in the opposite direction. The shrill radical sorts are being de-emphasized (not least since everyone noticed political correctness is silly), and as I noted “women’s studies” is slowly transforming into “gender studies”.
The major battlegrounds now, as I see them, are on exactly these sorts of questions. Is gender egalitarianism possible? Is it valuable? Are there factors which explain things like income disparity, and what, if anything, should we do about them?
But then, I haven’t really been following the literature for a couple of years.
I see what you mean here. I think it’s part of the same process. Equating gender egalitarianism with empowering women doesn’t make quite as much sense as it once did. And for this reason radical feminists are losing influence, their message doesn’t resonate like it used to. But at the same time aspects of the radical view haven been embedded in a lot of feminist 101 stuff (just think, for example, about the concept of the patriarchy) and mainstream/liberal feminism is having a really hard time getting away from that.
Sounds like we’re on roughly the same page.
Personally my general reaction to feminism is negative but it appears to encompass a sufficiently diverse range of viewpoints that I find myself agreeing with some subset of those viewpoints. My impression is that rationality is not a strong feature of feminist thought but I recognize that I have probably been mostly exposed to the worst advocates.
The most convincing advocate of feminist ideas I have encountered is Kerry Howley. I think I can probably stomach feminist ideas she espouses because they are sugar coated in a libertarian wrapper. I’m not even sure that she would self-describe as a feminist but I feel that what sympathy I have for feminist ideas can in large part be credited to her writing.
I like Kerry Howley too. She does self-describe as a feminist. She’s in the tradition of Voltairine de Cleyre.
I grew discouraged by feminism as represented by, say, the writers at feministe. There was a great deal of opposition to thinking the wrong thoughts. But you’re right, it’s an extraordinarily broad area, to the point of (almost) not being a useful term.
I think there is a parallel to the complaints about the PUA discussions here. I’ve often seen feminist ideas presented in a tone of hostility and misandry and embedded in a whole heap of background assumptions and beliefs that I do not share. I can read some of the same ideas from someone like Kerry Howley and appreciate that they are actually quite reasonable and compatible with my own views because I am not immediately on the defensive and looking for disagreement.
I also feel this way about criticisms of feminism. A lot of it comes from this entitled, resentful and misogynist place which aggravates me. I find that even among the most reasonable critics of feminism this attitude has a tendency to come out from time to time.
Is there anything in particular of Kerry Howley’s that you recommend?
This might be interesting—it’s an analysis of the similarities between feminist descriptions of the patriarchy and libertarian descriptions of the state, with the suggestion that libertarians and feminists could learn quite a bit from each other.
Here’s a few on libertarianism/feminism:
Libertarian Feminism versus Monarchist Anarchism
Feminism and Libertarianism Again
Does the Word Feminism Mean Anything
And on reproductive/sexual issues:
Notes on My Life Sentence of Buried Self-Negation
Trying Really Hard to Get Upset About Pornography
Might There Be a Connection Between Slut Shaming and Slut Jailing
The Myth of the Migrant
Thanks for the link, it’s an interesting article. I don’t find much to take issue with there—I generally agree with their analysis. Unfortunately I see little evidence of any progress towards reconciliation.
I find the focus on radicalism as a common trait interesting. I see parallels with coverage of the financial crisis where I basically agree with much of the analysis of people like Matt Taibbi or Simon Johnson and James Kwak on the root causes of the financial crisis but have a rather different idea of what needs to be done to fix the problem. The ideas of a feminist-libertarian alliance and a left-libertarian alliance have many commonalities.
Agreed. Still my point remains, to what extent should a group stop doing certain activities to accommodate hypothetical future members who might or might not join even if the group ceases doing said activities.
A fair question, though it’s worth noting that those particular activities were also annoying some current members.
Indeed—at the time, at least two of the site’s “top contributors” were specifically put off by it.
I actually don’t see why lurkers as lurkers should have a political constituency. They don’t contribute to the site by definition. Any given lurker is welcome to become a poster and then they will be part of their own political constituency.
I wasn’t saying that they should, just that they don’t.
Even so, it’s possible that they should have a constituency of sorts if you want the site to grow.