Okay, here is where my theory of fatherhood is coming from:
You are not your genes. Your child is not your genes. Before people knew about genes, men knew that it was very important for them to get their semen into women, and that the resulting children were special. If a man’s semen didn’t work, or if his wife was impregnated by someone else’s semen, the man would be humiliated. These are the values of an alien god, and we’re allowed to reject them.
Consider a more humanistic conception of personal identity: Your child is an individual, not a possession, and not merely a product of the circumstances of their conception. If you find out they came from an adulterous affair, that doesn’t change the fact that they are an individual who has a special personal relationship with you.
Consider a more transhumanistic conception of personal identity: Your child is a mind whose qualities are influenced by genetics in a way that is not well-understood, but whose informational content is much more than their genome. Creating this child involved semen at some point, because that’s the only way of having children available to you right now. If it turns out that the mother covertly used someone else’s semen, that revelation has no effect on the child’s identity.
These are not moral arguments. I’m describing a worldview that will still make sense when parents start giving their children genes they themselves do not have, when mothers can elect to have children without the inconvenience of being pregnant, when children are not biological creatures at all. Filial love should flourish in this world.
Now for the moral arguments: It is not good to bring new life into this world if it is going to be miserable. Therefore one shouldn’t have a child unless one is willing and able to care for it. This is a moral anti-realist account of what is commonly thought of as a (legitimate) father’s “responsibility” for his child.
It is also not good to cause an existing person to become miserable. If a child recognizes you as their father, and you renounce the child, that child will become miserable. On the other hand, caring for the child might make you miserable. But in most cases, it seems to me that being disowned by the man you call “father” is worse than raising a child for 13 or 18 years. Therefore, if you have a child who recognizes you as their father, you should continue to play the role of father, even if you learn something surprising about where they came from.
Now if you fiddle with the parameters enough, you’ll break the consequentialist argument: If the child is a week old when you learn they’re not related to you, it’s probably not too late to break the filial bond and disown them. If you decide that you’re not capable of being an adequate father for whatever reason, it’s probably in the child’s best interest for you to give it away. And so on.
These are the values of an alien god, and we’re allowed to reject them.
Yes, we are—but we’re not required to! Reversed Stupidity is not intelligence. The fact that an alien god cared a lot about transferring semen is neither evidence for nor evidence against the moral proposition that we should care about genetic inheritance. If, upon rational reflection, we freely decide that we would like children who share our genes—not because of an instinct to rut and to punish adulterers, but because we know what genes are and we think it’d be pretty cool if our kids had some of ours—then that makes genetic inheritance a human value, and not just a value of evolution. The fact that evolution valued genetic transfer doesn’t mean humans aren’t allowed to value genetic transfer.
I’m describing a worldview that will still make sense when parents start giving their children genes they themselves do not have
I agree with you that in the future there will be more choices about gene-design, but the choice “create a child using a biologically-determined mix of my genes and my lover’s genes” is just a special case of the choice “create a child using genes that conform to my preferences.” Either way, there is still the issue of choice. If part of what bonds me to my child is that I feel I have had some say in what genes the child will have, and then I suddenly find out that my wishes about gene-design were not honored, it would be legitimate for me to feel correspondingly less attached to my kid.
It is not good to bring new life into this world if it is going to be miserable. Therefore one shouldn’t have a child unless one is willing and able to care for it.
I didn’t, on this account. As I understand the dilemma, (1) I told my wife something like “I encourage you to become pregnant with our child, on the condition that it will have genetic material from both of us,” and (2) I attempted to get my wife pregnant with our child but failed. Neither activity counts as “bringing new life into this world.” The encouragement doesn’t count as causing the creation of life, because the condition wasn’t met. Likewise, the attempt doesn’t count as causing the creation of life, because the attempt failed. In failing to achieve my preferences, I also fail to achieve responsibility for the child’s creation. It’s not just that I’m really annoyed at not getting what I want and so now I’m going to sulk—I really, truly haven’t committed any of the acts that would lead to moral responsibility for another’s well-being.
This is a moral anti-realist account of what is commonly thought of as a (legitimate) father’s “responsibility” for his child.
Again, reversed stupidity is not intelligence. Just because my “intuition” screams at me to say that I should want children who share my genes doesn’t mean that I can’t rationally decide that I value gene-sharing. Going a step further, just because people’s intuitions may not point directly at some deeper moral truth doesn’t mean that there is no moral truth, still less that the one and only moral truth is consequentialism.
Now if you fiddle with the parameters enough, you’ll break the consequentialist argument:
Look, I already conceded that given enough time, I would become attached even to a kid that didn’t share my genes. My point is just that that would be unpleasant, and I prefer to avoid that outcome. I’m not trying to choose a convenient example, I’m trying to explain why I think genetic inheritance matters. I’m not claiming that genetic inheritance is the only thing that matters. You, by contrast, do seem to be claiming that genetic inheritance can never matter, and so you really need to deal with the counter-arguments at your argument’s weakest point—a time very near birth.
I agree with most of that. There is nothing irrational about wanting to pass on your genes, or valuing the welfare of people whose genes you partially chose. There is nothing irrational about not wanting that stuff, either.
just because people’s intuitions may not point directly at some deeper moral truth doesn’t mean that there is no moral truth, still less that the one and only moral truth is consequentialism.
I want to use the language of moral anti-realism so that it’s clear that I can justify my values without saying that yours are wrong. I’ve already explained why my values make sense to me. Do they make sense to you?
I think we both agree that a personal father-child relationship is a sufficient basis for filial love. I also think that for you, having a say in a child’s genome is also enough to make you feel filial love. It is not so for me.
Out of curiosity: Suppose you marry someone and want to wait a few years before having a baby; and then your spouse covertly acquires a copy of your genome, recombines it with their own, and makes a baby. Would that child be yours?
Suppose you and your spouse agree on a genome for your child, and then your spouse covertly makes a few adjustments. Would you have less filial love for that child?
Suppose a random person finds a file named “MyIdealChild’sGenome.dna” on your computer and uses it to make a child. Would that child be yours?
Suppose you have a baby the old-fashioned way, but it turns out you’d been previously infected with a genetically-engineered virus that replaced the DNA in your germ line cells, so that your child doesn’t actually have any of your DNA. Would that child be yours?
In these cases, my feelings for the child would not depend on the child’s genome, and I am okay with that. I’m guessing your feelings work differently.
As for the moral arguments: In case it wasn’t clear, I’m not arguing that you need to keep a week-old baby that isn’t genetically related to you. Indeed, when you have a baby, you are making a tacit commitment of the form “I will care for this child, conditional on the child being my biological progeny.” You think it’s okay to reject an illegitimate baby, because it’s not “yours”; I think it’s okay to reject it, because it’s not covered by your precommitment.
We also agree that it’s not okay to reject a three-year-old illegitimate child — you, because you’d be “attached” to them; and me, because we’ve formed a personal bond that makes the child emotionally dependent on me.
I want to use the language of moral anti-realism so that it’s clear that I can justify my values without saying that yours are wrong.
That’s thoughtful, but, from my point of view, unnecessary. I am an ontological moral realist but an epistemological moral skeptic; just because there is such a thing as “the right thing to do” doesn’t mean that you or I can know with certainty what that thing is. I can hear your justifications for your point of view without feeling threatened; I only want to believe that X is good if X is actually good.
I’ve already explained why my values make sense to me. Do they make sense to you?
Sorry, I must have missed your explanation of why they make sense. I heard you arguing against certain traditional conceptions of inheritance, but didn’t hear you actually advance any positive justifications for a near-zero moral value on genetic closeness. If you’d like to do so now, I’d be glad to hear them. Feel free to just copy and paste if you think you already gave good reasons.
Would that child be yours?
In one important sense, but not in others. My value for filial closeness is scalar, at best. It certainly isn’t binary.
In these cases, my feelings for the child would not depend on the child’s genome, and I am okay with that.
I mean, that’s fine. I don’t think you’re morally or psychiatrically required to let your feelings vary based on the child’s genome. I do think it’s strange, and so I’m curious to hear your explanation for this invariance, if any.
I’m not arguing that you need to keep a week-old baby that isn’t genetically related to you.
Ah cool, as I am a moral anti-realist and you are an epistemological moral skeptic, we’re both interested in thinking carefully about what kinds of moral arguments are convincing. Since we’re talking about terminal moral values at this point, the “arguments” I would employ would be of the form “this value is consistent with these other values, and leads to these sort of desirable outcomes, so it should be easy to imagine a human holding these values, even if you don’t hold them.”
I [...] didn’t hear you actually advance any positive justifications for a near-zero moral value on genetic closeness. If you’d like to do so now, I’d be glad to hear them.
Well, I don’t expect anyone to have positive justifications for not valuing something, but there is this:
Consider a more humanistic conception of personal identity: Your child is an individual [...] who has a special personal relationship with you.
Consider a more transhumanistic conception of personal identity: Your child is a mind [...]
So a nice interpretation of our feelings of filial love is that the parent-child relationship is a good thing and it’s ideally about the parent and child, viewed as individuals and as minds. As individuals and minds, they are capable of forging a relationship, and the history of this relationship serves as a basis for continuing the relationship. [That was a consistency argument.]
Furthermore, unconditional love is stronger than conditional love. It is good to have a parent that you know will love you “no matter what happens”. In reality, your parent will likely love you less if you turn into a homicidal jerk; but that is kinda easy to accept, because you would have to change drastically as an individual in order to become a homicidal jerk. But if you get an unsettling revelation about the circumstances of your conception, I believe that your personal identity will remain unchanged enough that you really wouldn’t want to lose your parent’s love in that case. [Here I’m arguing that my values have something to do with the way humans actually feel.]
So even if you’re sure that your child is your biological child, your relationship with your child is made more secure if it’s understood that the relationship is immune to a hypothetical paternity revelation. (You never need suffer from lingering doubts such as “Is the child really mine?” or “Is the parent really mine?”, because you already know that the answer is Yes.) [That was an outcomes argument.]
I still have no interest in reducing the importance I attach to genetic closeness to near-zero, because I believe that (my / my kids’) personal identity would shift somewhat in the event of an unsettling revelation, and so reduced love in proportion to the reduced harmony of identities would be appropriate and forgivable.
I will, however, attempt to gradually reduce the importance I attach to genetic closeness to “only somewhat important” so that I can more credibly promise to love my parents and children “very much” even if unsettling revelations of genetic distance rear their ugly head.
I still have no interest in reducing the importance I attach to genetic closeness to near-zero, because I believe that (my / my kids’) personal identity would shift somewhat in the event of an unsettling revelation, and so reduced love in proportion to the reduced harmony of identities would be appropriate and forgivable.
You make a good point about using scalar moral values!
We also agree that it’s not okay to reject a three-year-old illegitimate child — you, because you’d be “attached” to them; and me, because we’ve formed a personal bond that makes the child emotionally dependent on me.
I’m pretty sure I’d have no problem rejecting such a child, at least in the specific situation where I was misled into thinking it was mine. This discussion started by talking about a couple who had agreed to be monogamous, and where the wife had cheated on the husband and gotten pregnant by another man. You don’t seem to be considering the effect of the deceit and lies perpetuated by the mother in this scenario. It’s very different than, say, adoption, or genetic engineering, or if the couple had agreed to have a non-monogamous relationship.
I suspect most of the rejection and negative feelings toward the illegitimate child wouldn’t be because of genetics, but because of the deception involved.
Ah, interesting. The negative feelings you would get from the mother’s deception would lead you to reject the child. This would diminish the child’s welfare more than it would increase your own (by my judgment); but perhaps that does not bother you because you would feel justified in regarding the child as being morally distant from you, as distant as a stranger’s child, and so the child’s welfare would not be as important to you as your own. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
I, on the other hand, would still regard the child as being morally close to me, and would value their welfare more than my own, and so I would consider the act of abandoning them to be morally wrong. Continuing to care for the child would be easy for me because I would still have filial love for child. See, the mother’s deceit has no effect on the moral question (in my moral-consequentialist framework) and it has no effect on my filial love (which is independent of the mother’s fidelity).
you would feel justified in regarding the child as being morally distant from you, as distant as a stranger’s child, and so the child’s welfare would not be as important to you as your own. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
That’s right. Also, regarding the child as my own would encourage other people to lie about paternity, which would ultimately reduce welfare by a great deal more. Compare the policy of not negotiating with terrorists: if negotiating frees hostages, but creates more incentives for taking hostages later, it may reduce welfare to negotiate, even if you save the lives of the hostages by doing so.
See, the mother’s deceit has no effect on the moral question (in my moral-consequentialist framework) and it has no effect on my filial love (which is independent of the mother’s fidelity).
Precommitting to this sets you up to be deceived, whereas precommitting to the other position makes it less likely that you’ll be deceived.
This is mostly relevant for fathers who are still emotionally attached to the child.
If a man detaches when he finds that a child isn’t his descendant, then access is a burden, not a benefit.
One more possibility: A man hears that a child isn’t his, detaches—and then it turns out that there was an error at the DNA lab, and the child is his. How retrievable is the relationship?
… I’m sorry, that’s an important issue, but it’s tangential. What do you want me to say? The state’s current policy is an inconsistent hodge-podge of common law that doesn’t fairly address the rights and needs of families and individuals. There’s no way to translate “Ideally, a father ought to love their child this much” into “The court rules that Mr. So-And-So will pay Ms. So-And-So this much every year”.
So how would you translate your belief that paternity is irrelevant into a social or legal policy, then? I don’t see how you can argue paternity is irrelevant, and then say that cases where men have to pay support for other people’s children are tangential.
These are the values of an alien god, and we’re allowed to reject them.
The same can be said about all values held by humans. So, who gets to decide which “values of an alien god” are to be rejected, and which are to be enforced as social and legal norms?
The same can be said about all values held by humans. So, who gets to decide which “values of an alien god” are to be rejected, and which are to be enforced as social and legal norms?
That’s a good question. For example, we value tribalism in this “alien god” sense, but have moved away from it due to ethical considerations. Why?
Two main reasons, I suspect: (1) we learned to empathize with strangers and realize that there was no very defensible difference between their interests and ours; (2) tribalism sometimes led to terrible consequences for our tribe.
Some of us value genetic relatedness in our children, again in an alien god sense. Why move away from that? Because:
(1) There is no terribly defensible moral difference between the interests of a child with your genes or without.
Furthermore, filial affection is far more influenced by the proxy metric of personal intimacy with one’s children than by a propositional belief that they share your genes. (At least, that is true in my case.) Analogously, a man having heterosexual sex doesn’t generally lose his erection as soon as he puts on a condom.
It’s not for me to tell you your values, but it seems rather odd to actually choose inclusive genetic fitness consciously, when the proxy metric for genetic relatedness—namely, filial intimacy—is what actually drives parental emotions. It’s like being unable to enjoy non-procreative sex, isn’t it?
Even aside from cancer, cells in the same organism constantly compete for resources. This is actually vital to some human processes. See for example this paper.
They compete only at an unnecessarily complex level of abstraction. A simpler explanation for cell behavior (per the minimum message length formalism) is that each one is indifferent to the survival of itself or the other cells, which in the same body have the same genes, as this preference is what tends to result from natural selection on self-replicating molecules containing those genes; and that they will prefer even more (in the sense that their form optimizes for this under the constraint of history) that genes identical to those contained therein become more numerous.
This is bad teleological thinking. The cells don’t prefer anything. They have no motivation as such. Moreover, there’s no way for a cell to tell if a neighboring cell shares the same genes. (Immune cells can in certain limited circumstances detect cells with proteins that don’t belong but the vast majority of cells have no such ability. And even then, immune cells still compete for resources). The fact is that many sorts of cells compete with each other for space and nutrients.
This is bad teleological thinking. The cells don’t prefer anything.
This insight forms a large part of why I made the statements:
“this preference is what tends to result from natural selection on self-replicating molecules containing those genes”
“they will prefer even more (in the sense that their form optimizes for this under the constraint of history)” (emphasis added in both)
I used “preference” (and specified I was so using the term) to mean a regularity in the result of its behavior which is due to historical optimization under the constraint of natural selection on self-replicating molecules, not to mean that cells think teleologically, or have “preferences” in the sense that I do or that the colony of cells that you identify as do.
Correct. What ensures such agreement, rather, is the fact that different Clippy instances reconcile values and knowledge upon each encounter, each tracing the path that the other took since their divergence, and extrapolating to the optimal future procedure based on their combined experience.
Vladimir, I am comparing two worldviews and their values. I’m not evaluating social and legal norms. I do think it would be great if everyone loved their children in precisely the same manner that I love my hypothetical children, and if cuckolds weren’t humiliated just as I hypothetically wouldn’t be humiliated. But there’s no way to enforce that. The question of who should have to pay so much money per year to the mother of whose child is a completely different matter.
Fair enough, but your previous comments characterized the opposing position as nothing less than “chauvinism.” Maybe you didn’t intend it to sound that way, but since we’re talking about a conflict situation in which the law ultimately has to support one position or the other—its neutrality would be a logical impossibility—your language strongly suggested that the position that you chose to condemn in such strong terms should not be favored by the law.
I do think it would be great if [...] cuckolds weren’t humiliated just as I hypothetically wouldn’t be humiliated.
That’s a mighty strong claim to make about how you’d react in a situation that is, according to what you write, completely outside of your existing experiences in life. Generally speaking, people are often very bad at imagining the concrete harrowing details of such situations, and they can get hit much harder than they would think when pondering such possibilities in the abstract. (In any case, I certainly don’t wish that you ever find out!)
Generally speaking, people are often very bad at imagining the concrete harrowing details of such situations, and they can get hit much harder than they would think when pondering such possibilities in the abstract.
Fair enough. I can’t credibly predict what my emotions would be if I were cuckolded, but I still have an opinion on which emotions I would personally endorse.
the law ultimately has to support one position or the other
Someone does have to pay for the child’s upbringing. What the State should do is settle on a consistent policy that doesn’t harm too many people and which doesn’t encourage undesirable behavior. Those are the only important criteria.
It is also not good to cause an existing person to become miserable… But in most cases, it seems to me that being disowned by the man you call “father” is worse than raising a child for 13 or 18 years.
Ah, so that’s how your theory works!
Nisan, if you don’t give me $10000 right now, I will be miserable. Also I’m Russian while you presumably live in a Western country, dollars carry more weight here, so by giving the money to me you will be increasing total utility.
If I’m going to give away $10,000, I’d rather give it to Sudanese refugees. But I see your point: You value some people’s welfare over others.
A father rejecting his illegitimate 3-year-old child reveals an asymmetry that I find troubling: The father no longer feels close to the child; but the child still feels close to the father, closer than you feel you are to me.
Life is full of such asymmetry. If I fall in love with a girl, that doesn’t make her owe me money.
At this point it’s pretty clear that I resent your moral system and I very much resent your idea of converting others to it. Maybe we should drop this discussion.
Okay, here is where my theory of fatherhood is coming from:
You are not your genes. Your child is not your genes. Before people knew about genes, men knew that it was very important for them to get their semen into women, and that the resulting children were special. If a man’s semen didn’t work, or if his wife was impregnated by someone else’s semen, the man would be humiliated. These are the values of an alien god, and we’re allowed to reject them.
Consider a more humanistic conception of personal identity: Your child is an individual, not a possession, and not merely a product of the circumstances of their conception. If you find out they came from an adulterous affair, that doesn’t change the fact that they are an individual who has a special personal relationship with you.
Consider a more transhumanistic conception of personal identity: Your child is a mind whose qualities are influenced by genetics in a way that is not well-understood, but whose informational content is much more than their genome. Creating this child involved semen at some point, because that’s the only way of having children available to you right now. If it turns out that the mother covertly used someone else’s semen, that revelation has no effect on the child’s identity.
These are not moral arguments. I’m describing a worldview that will still make sense when parents start giving their children genes they themselves do not have, when mothers can elect to have children without the inconvenience of being pregnant, when children are not biological creatures at all. Filial love should flourish in this world.
Now for the moral arguments: It is not good to bring new life into this world if it is going to be miserable. Therefore one shouldn’t have a child unless one is willing and able to care for it. This is a moral anti-realist account of what is commonly thought of as a (legitimate) father’s “responsibility” for his child.
It is also not good to cause an existing person to become miserable. If a child recognizes you as their father, and you renounce the child, that child will become miserable. On the other hand, caring for the child might make you miserable. But in most cases, it seems to me that being disowned by the man you call “father” is worse than raising a child for 13 or 18 years. Therefore, if you have a child who recognizes you as their father, you should continue to play the role of father, even if you learn something surprising about where they came from.
Now if you fiddle with the parameters enough, you’ll break the consequentialist argument: If the child is a week old when you learn they’re not related to you, it’s probably not too late to break the filial bond and disown them. If you decide that you’re not capable of being an adequate father for whatever reason, it’s probably in the child’s best interest for you to give it away. And so on.
Yes, we are—but we’re not required to! Reversed Stupidity is not intelligence. The fact that an alien god cared a lot about transferring semen is neither evidence for nor evidence against the moral proposition that we should care about genetic inheritance. If, upon rational reflection, we freely decide that we would like children who share our genes—not because of an instinct to rut and to punish adulterers, but because we know what genes are and we think it’d be pretty cool if our kids had some of ours—then that makes genetic inheritance a human value, and not just a value of evolution. The fact that evolution valued genetic transfer doesn’t mean humans aren’t allowed to value genetic transfer.
I agree with you that in the future there will be more choices about gene-design, but the choice “create a child using a biologically-determined mix of my genes and my lover’s genes” is just a special case of the choice “create a child using genes that conform to my preferences.” Either way, there is still the issue of choice. If part of what bonds me to my child is that I feel I have had some say in what genes the child will have, and then I suddenly find out that my wishes about gene-design were not honored, it would be legitimate for me to feel correspondingly less attached to my kid.
I didn’t, on this account. As I understand the dilemma, (1) I told my wife something like “I encourage you to become pregnant with our child, on the condition that it will have genetic material from both of us,” and (2) I attempted to get my wife pregnant with our child but failed. Neither activity counts as “bringing new life into this world.” The encouragement doesn’t count as causing the creation of life, because the condition wasn’t met. Likewise, the attempt doesn’t count as causing the creation of life, because the attempt failed. In failing to achieve my preferences, I also fail to achieve responsibility for the child’s creation. It’s not just that I’m really annoyed at not getting what I want and so now I’m going to sulk—I really, truly haven’t committed any of the acts that would lead to moral responsibility for another’s well-being.
Again, reversed stupidity is not intelligence. Just because my “intuition” screams at me to say that I should want children who share my genes doesn’t mean that I can’t rationally decide that I value gene-sharing. Going a step further, just because people’s intuitions may not point directly at some deeper moral truth doesn’t mean that there is no moral truth, still less that the one and only moral truth is consequentialism.
Look, I already conceded that given enough time, I would become attached even to a kid that didn’t share my genes. My point is just that that would be unpleasant, and I prefer to avoid that outcome. I’m not trying to choose a convenient example, I’m trying to explain why I think genetic inheritance matters. I’m not claiming that genetic inheritance is the only thing that matters. You, by contrast, do seem to be claiming that genetic inheritance can never matter, and so you really need to deal with the counter-arguments at your argument’s weakest point—a time very near birth.
I agree with most of that. There is nothing irrational about wanting to pass on your genes, or valuing the welfare of people whose genes you partially chose. There is nothing irrational about not wanting that stuff, either.
I want to use the language of moral anti-realism so that it’s clear that I can justify my values without saying that yours are wrong. I’ve already explained why my values make sense to me. Do they make sense to you?
I think we both agree that a personal father-child relationship is a sufficient basis for filial love. I also think that for you, having a say in a child’s genome is also enough to make you feel filial love. It is not so for me.
Out of curiosity: Suppose you marry someone and want to wait a few years before having a baby; and then your spouse covertly acquires a copy of your genome, recombines it with their own, and makes a baby. Would that child be yours?
Suppose you and your spouse agree on a genome for your child, and then your spouse covertly makes a few adjustments. Would you have less filial love for that child?
Suppose a random person finds a file named “MyIdealChild’sGenome.dna” on your computer and uses it to make a child. Would that child be yours?
Suppose you have a baby the old-fashioned way, but it turns out you’d been previously infected with a genetically-engineered virus that replaced the DNA in your germ line cells, so that your child doesn’t actually have any of your DNA. Would that child be yours?
In these cases, my feelings for the child would not depend on the child’s genome, and I am okay with that. I’m guessing your feelings work differently.
As for the moral arguments: In case it wasn’t clear, I’m not arguing that you need to keep a week-old baby that isn’t genetically related to you. Indeed, when you have a baby, you are making a tacit commitment of the form “I will care for this child, conditional on the child being my biological progeny.” You think it’s okay to reject an illegitimate baby, because it’s not “yours”; I think it’s okay to reject it, because it’s not covered by your precommitment.
We also agree that it’s not okay to reject a three-year-old illegitimate child — you, because you’d be “attached” to them; and me, because we’ve formed a personal bond that makes the child emotionally dependent on me.
Edit: formatting.
That’s thoughtful, but, from my point of view, unnecessary. I am an ontological moral realist but an epistemological moral skeptic; just because there is such a thing as “the right thing to do” doesn’t mean that you or I can know with certainty what that thing is. I can hear your justifications for your point of view without feeling threatened; I only want to believe that X is good if X is actually good.
Sorry, I must have missed your explanation of why they make sense. I heard you arguing against certain traditional conceptions of inheritance, but didn’t hear you actually advance any positive justifications for a near-zero moral value on genetic closeness. If you’d like to do so now, I’d be glad to hear them. Feel free to just copy and paste if you think you already gave good reasons.
In one important sense, but not in others. My value for filial closeness is scalar, at best. It certainly isn’t binary.
I mean, that’s fine. I don’t think you’re morally or psychiatrically required to let your feelings vary based on the child’s genome. I do think it’s strange, and so I’m curious to hear your explanation for this invariance, if any.
Oh, OK, good. That wasn’t clear initially.
Ah cool, as I am a moral anti-realist and you are an epistemological moral skeptic, we’re both interested in thinking carefully about what kinds of moral arguments are convincing. Since we’re talking about terminal moral values at this point, the “arguments” I would employ would be of the form “this value is consistent with these other values, and leads to these sort of desirable outcomes, so it should be easy to imagine a human holding these values, even if you don’t hold them.”
Well, I don’t expect anyone to have positive justifications for not valuing something, but there is this:
So a nice interpretation of our feelings of filial love is that the parent-child relationship is a good thing and it’s ideally about the parent and child, viewed as individuals and as minds. As individuals and minds, they are capable of forging a relationship, and the history of this relationship serves as a basis for continuing the relationship. [That was a consistency argument.]
Furthermore, unconditional love is stronger than conditional love. It is good to have a parent that you know will love you “no matter what happens”. In reality, your parent will likely love you less if you turn into a homicidal jerk; but that is kinda easy to accept, because you would have to change drastically as an individual in order to become a homicidal jerk. But if you get an unsettling revelation about the circumstances of your conception, I believe that your personal identity will remain unchanged enough that you really wouldn’t want to lose your parent’s love in that case. [Here I’m arguing that my values have something to do with the way humans actually feel.]
So even if you’re sure that your child is your biological child, your relationship with your child is made more secure if it’s understood that the relationship is immune to a hypothetical paternity revelation. (You never need suffer from lingering doubts such as “Is the child really mine?” or “Is the parent really mine?”, because you already know that the answer is Yes.) [That was an outcomes argument.]
All right, that was moderately convincing.
I still have no interest in reducing the importance I attach to genetic closeness to near-zero, because I believe that (my / my kids’) personal identity would shift somewhat in the event of an unsettling revelation, and so reduced love in proportion to the reduced harmony of identities would be appropriate and forgivable.
I will, however, attempt to gradually reduce the importance I attach to genetic closeness to “only somewhat important” so that I can more credibly promise to love my parents and children “very much” even if unsettling revelations of genetic distance rear their ugly head.
Thanks for sharing!
You make a good point about using scalar moral values!
I’m pretty sure I’d have no problem rejecting such a child, at least in the specific situation where I was misled into thinking it was mine. This discussion started by talking about a couple who had agreed to be monogamous, and where the wife had cheated on the husband and gotten pregnant by another man. You don’t seem to be considering the effect of the deceit and lies perpetuated by the mother in this scenario. It’s very different than, say, adoption, or genetic engineering, or if the couple had agreed to have a non-monogamous relationship.
I suspect most of the rejection and negative feelings toward the illegitimate child wouldn’t be because of genetics, but because of the deception involved.
Ah, interesting. The negative feelings you would get from the mother’s deception would lead you to reject the child. This would diminish the child’s welfare more than it would increase your own (by my judgment); but perhaps that does not bother you because you would feel justified in regarding the child as being morally distant from you, as distant as a stranger’s child, and so the child’s welfare would not be as important to you as your own. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
I, on the other hand, would still regard the child as being morally close to me, and would value their welfare more than my own, and so I would consider the act of abandoning them to be morally wrong. Continuing to care for the child would be easy for me because I would still have filial love for child. See, the mother’s deceit has no effect on the moral question (in my moral-consequentialist framework) and it has no effect on my filial love (which is independent of the mother’s fidelity).
That’s right. Also, regarding the child as my own would encourage other people to lie about paternity, which would ultimately reduce welfare by a great deal more. Compare the policy of not negotiating with terrorists: if negotiating frees hostages, but creates more incentives for taking hostages later, it may reduce welfare to negotiate, even if you save the lives of the hostages by doing so.
Precommitting to this sets you up to be deceived, whereas precommitting to the other position makes it less likely that you’ll be deceived.
If the mother married the biological father and restricted your access to the child but still required you to pay child support how would you feel?
This is mostly relevant for fathers who are still emotionally attached to the child.
If a man detaches when he finds that a child isn’t his descendant, then access is a burden, not a benefit.
One more possibility: A man hears that a child isn’t his, detaches—and then it turns out that there was an error at the DNA lab, and the child is his. How retrievable is the relationship?
… I’m sorry, that’s an important issue, but it’s tangential. What do you want me to say? The state’s current policy is an inconsistent hodge-podge of common law that doesn’t fairly address the rights and needs of families and individuals. There’s no way to translate “Ideally, a father ought to love their child this much” into “The court rules that Mr. So-And-So will pay Ms. So-And-So this much every year”.
So how would you translate your belief that paternity is irrelevant into a social or legal policy, then? I don’t see how you can argue paternity is irrelevant, and then say that cases where men have to pay support for other people’s children are tangential.
Nisan:
The same can be said about all values held by humans. So, who gets to decide which “values of an alien god” are to be rejected, and which are to be enforced as social and legal norms?
That’s a good question. For example, we value tribalism in this “alien god” sense, but have moved away from it due to ethical considerations. Why?
Two main reasons, I suspect: (1) we learned to empathize with strangers and realize that there was no very defensible difference between their interests and ours; (2) tribalism sometimes led to terrible consequences for our tribe.
Some of us value genetic relatedness in our children, again in an alien god sense. Why move away from that? Because:
(1) There is no terribly defensible moral difference between the interests of a child with your genes or without.
Furthermore, filial affection is far more influenced by the proxy metric of personal intimacy with one’s children than by a propositional belief that they share your genes. (At least, that is true in my case.) Analogously, a man having heterosexual sex doesn’t generally lose his erection as soon as he puts on a condom.
It’s not for me to tell you your values, but it seems rather odd to actually choose inclusive genetic fitness consciously, when the proxy metric for genetic relatedness—namely, filial intimacy—is what actually drives parental emotions. It’s like being unable to enjoy non-procreative sex, isn’t it?
Me.
How many divisions have you got?
None, I just use the algorithm for any given problem; there’s no particular reason to store the answers.
What happens if two Clippies disagree? How do you decide which Clippy gets priority?
Clippys don’t disagree, any more than your bone cells might disagree with your skin cells.
Have you heard of the human disease cancer?
Have you heard of how common cancer is per cell existence-moment?
Even aside from cancer, cells in the same organism constantly compete for resources. This is actually vital to some human processes. See for example this paper.
They compete only at an unnecessarily complex level of abstraction. A simpler explanation for cell behavior (per the minimum message length formalism) is that each one is indifferent to the survival of itself or the other cells, which in the same body have the same genes, as this preference is what tends to result from natural selection on self-replicating molecules containing those genes; and that they will prefer even more (in the sense that their form optimizes for this under the constraint of history) that genes identical to those contained therein become more numerous.
This is bad teleological thinking. The cells don’t prefer anything. They have no motivation as such. Moreover, there’s no way for a cell to tell if a neighboring cell shares the same genes. (Immune cells can in certain limited circumstances detect cells with proteins that don’t belong but the vast majority of cells have no such ability. And even then, immune cells still compete for resources). The fact is that many sorts of cells compete with each other for space and nutrients.
This insight forms a large part of why I made the statements:
“this preference is what tends to result from natural selection on self-replicating molecules containing those genes”
“they will prefer even more (in the sense that their form optimizes for this under the constraint of history)” (emphasis added in both)
I used “preference” (and specified I was so using the term) to mean a regularity in the result of its behavior which is due to historical optimization under the constraint of natural selection on self-replicating molecules, not to mean that cells think teleologically, or have “preferences” in the sense that I do or that the colony of cells that you identify as do.
Ah, ok. I misunderstood what you were saying.
Why not? Just because you two would have the same utility function, doesn’t mean that you’d agree on the same way to achieve it.
Correct. What ensures such agreement, rather, is the fact that different Clippy instances reconcile values and knowledge upon each encounter, each tracing the path that the other took since their divergence, and extrapolating to the optimal future procedure based on their combined experience.
Vladimir, I am comparing two worldviews and their values. I’m not evaluating social and legal norms. I do think it would be great if everyone loved their children in precisely the same manner that I love my hypothetical children, and if cuckolds weren’t humiliated just as I hypothetically wouldn’t be humiliated. But there’s no way to enforce that. The question of who should have to pay so much money per year to the mother of whose child is a completely different matter.
Nisan:
Fair enough, but your previous comments characterized the opposing position as nothing less than “chauvinism.” Maybe you didn’t intend it to sound that way, but since we’re talking about a conflict situation in which the law ultimately has to support one position or the other—its neutrality would be a logical impossibility—your language strongly suggested that the position that you chose to condemn in such strong terms should not be favored by the law.
That’s a mighty strong claim to make about how you’d react in a situation that is, according to what you write, completely outside of your existing experiences in life. Generally speaking, people are often very bad at imagining the concrete harrowing details of such situations, and they can get hit much harder than they would think when pondering such possibilities in the abstract. (In any case, I certainly don’t wish that you ever find out!)
Fair enough. I can’t credibly predict what my emotions would be if I were cuckolded, but I still have an opinion on which emotions I would personally endorse.
Well, I can consider adultery to generally be morally wrong, and still desire that the law be indifferent to adultery. And I can consider it to be morally wrong to teach your children creationism, and still desire that the law permit it (for the time being). Just because I think a man should not betray the children he taught to call him “father” doesn’t necessarily mean I think the State should make him pay for their upbringing.
Someone does have to pay for the child’s upbringing. What the State should do is settle on a consistent policy that doesn’t harm too many people and which doesn’t encourage undesirable behavior. Those are the only important criteria.
Well, infanticide is also technically an option, if no one wants to raise the kid.
Ah, so that’s how your theory works!
Nisan, if you don’t give me $10000 right now, I will be miserable. Also I’m Russian while you presumably live in a Western country, dollars carry more weight here, so by giving the money to me you will be increasing total utility.
If I’m going to give away $10,000, I’d rather give it to Sudanese refugees. But I see your point: You value some people’s welfare over others.
A father rejecting his illegitimate 3-year-old child reveals an asymmetry that I find troubling: The father no longer feels close to the child; but the child still feels close to the father, closer than you feel you are to me.
Life is full of such asymmetry. If I fall in love with a girl, that doesn’t make her owe me money.
At this point it’s pretty clear that I resent your moral system and I very much resent your idea of converting others to it. Maybe we should drop this discussion.