If I were to say, “Evolution is the idea that men are descended from chimpanzees,” would you let me have my definition or would you say I was confused?
If you want to say that “Evolution is the idea that men are descended from chimpanzees” is a definition, it is simply wrong, except within a Creationist circle, where such straw men may be used. We are then in “you can not arbitrarily define words” land. If I am not mistaken, the appropriate Sequence post is linked in the post.
Being confused about something and being wrong about something are two different things. Saying that a falling tree does not generate vibrations in the air is wrong; discussion whether it makes sound without recognizing that you want to talk about vibrations, is confused.
I haven’t read the entire sequence but have studied some of the entries. I’ve had this question—is it right to call it a confusion?--ever since I read Taboo Your Words but didn’t ask about it until now.
Neither, I would say that you were either horribly mistaken or deliberately misconstruing (lying) about what other people meant when they talked about evolution. It would become a lie for certain the second time you said it.
You didn’t use the verb “confuse with”, you used the word “confused” as an adjective, which has a slightly different meaning. Why didn’t you go look “confused” up? I’m increasing the probability estimate you’re being deliberately disingenuous here.
But even if you were just mistaken about typical usage, not intentionally disingenuous, it would have been better still if you tried to understand the meaning I’m trying to communicate to you instead of debating the definitions.
I’m increasing the probability estimate you’re being deliberately disingenuous here.
I’m not getting that vibe at all.
Is the problem which part of speech is being used, or is it whether or not the verb is being used reflexively?
“I fed my kitten.” This sentence is ambiguous.
“I fed my kitten tuna.”
“I fed my kitten to a mountain lion.”
One can feed a kitten (reflexive) an item to that kitten, or one can feed the kitten to an animal.
The adjective is derived from the non-reflexive verb in this case, but can not both the verb and adjective both hold both meanings, depending on whether or not context makes them reflexive?
Other languages routinely mark the difference between reflexive and non-reflexive verbs.
I’m going to grant that my use of confused was mistaken and just rephrase: Physicists have a clear theory of sound. So why can’t we just say Barry is wrong?
He’d be wrong if he was talking about what physicists talk about when they refer to sound.
He’d not be wrong if he was talking about what lots of other people talk about when they refer to “sound”.
“Sound” is a word that in our language circumscribes two different categories of phenomena—the acoustic vibration (that doesn’t require a listener), and the qualia of the sense of hearing (that does require a listener). In the circumstances of the English language the two meanings use the same word. That doesn’t necessitate for one meaning to be valid and the other meaning to be invalid. They’re both valid, they’re just different.
If I say “you have the right to bear arms” I mean a different thing with the words ‘arms’ than if I say “human arms are longer than monkey arms”, but that doesn’t make one meaning of the words ‘arms’ wrong and the other right.
The analogy I’ve always appreciated was that my map has one pixel for both my apartment and my neighbors. So why do they get mad when I go through the window and shower there? It’s mine too, just look at the map, sheesh!
Usage. Dave interprets a sign from Jenny as referring to something, then he tries using the same sign to refer to the same thing, and if that usage of the sign is easily understood it tends to spread like that. The dictionary definition just records the common usages that have developed in the population.
For instance, how does the alien know what Takahiro means when he extends his index finger toward earth in this Japanese commercial? The alien just assumes it means he can find more chocolate bars on planet earth. If the alien gets to earth and finds more chocolate, he(?) is probably going to decide that his interpretation of the sign is at least somewhat reliable, and update for future interactions with humans.
I’d agree that’s generally how it works. I apologize, I probably should have said something like “Where do you think definitions come from?”, I was trying to figure out CharlesR’s thought process re: physicalists, above.
How could you endorse the first part without endorsing the second part? Doesn’t the first part already include the second part?
After all, it says “within the range of hearing and of a level sufficiently strong to be heard”. What could that mean if not “sufficient to generate the sensation stimulated in organs of hearing by such vibrations”?
“Sound is a mechanical wave that is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through a solid, liquid, or gas.”
It does not require the presence of a listener. Nor need it be in a certain range of frequencies. (That would just be a sound you cannot hear.)
What I am saying is, when Barry replies as he does, why don’t we just say, “You are confused about what is and is not sound. Go ask the physicists, ‘What is sound?’ and then we can continue this conversation, or if you don’t want to bother, you can take my word for it.”
When physicists have a consensus view of a phenomenon, we shouldn’t argue over definitions. We should use their definitions, provisionally, of course.
No one thinks it makes sense to argue over what is or is not an atom. I don’t see why ‘sound’ should be in a different category.
I endorse the first part.
There is nothing to “endorse”. The same English word can mean two different things. Both are valid things to talk about, depending on context.
If I were to say, “Evolution is the idea that men are descended from chimpanzees,” would you let me have my definition or would you say I was confused?
edit: No, not confused, but wrong.
If you want to say that “Evolution is the idea that men are descended from chimpanzees” is a definition, it is simply wrong, except within a Creationist circle, where such straw men may be used. We are then in “you can not arbitrarily define words” land. If I am not mistaken, the appropriate Sequence post is linked in the post.
Being confused about something and being wrong about something are two different things. Saying that a falling tree does not generate vibrations in the air is wrong; discussion whether it makes sound without recognizing that you want to talk about vibrations, is confused.
Have you read A Human’s Guide to Words? You seem to be confused about how words work.
I haven’t read the entire sequence but have studied some of the entries. I’ve had this question—is it right to call it a confusion?--ever since I read Taboo Your Words but didn’t ask about it until now.
Neither, I would say that you were either horribly mistaken or deliberately misconstruing (lying) about what other people meant when they talked about evolution. It would become a lie for certain the second time you said it.
Wow. I had to go the dictionary because I thought I might be using confuse incorrectly. I mean definition 3 of the New Oxford American.
confuse: identify wrongly, mistake : a lot of people confuse a stroke with a heart attack | purchasers might confuse the two products.
You didn’t use the verb “confuse with”, you used the word “confused” as an adjective, which has a slightly different meaning. Why didn’t you go look “confused” up? I’m increasing the probability estimate you’re being deliberately disingenuous here.
But even if you were just mistaken about typical usage, not intentionally disingenuous, it would have been better still if you tried to understand the meaning I’m trying to communicate to you instead of debating the definitions.
I’m not getting that vibe at all.
Is the problem which part of speech is being used, or is it whether or not the verb is being used reflexively?
“I fed my kitten.” This sentence is ambiguous. “I fed my kitten tuna.” “I fed my kitten to a mountain lion.”
One can feed a kitten (reflexive) an item to that kitten, or one can feed the kitten to an animal.
The adjective is derived from the non-reflexive verb in this case, but can not both the verb and adjective both hold both meanings, depending on whether or not context makes them reflexive?
Other languages routinely mark the difference between reflexive and non-reflexive verbs.
I’m going to grant that my use of confused was mistaken and just rephrase: Physicists have a clear theory of sound. So why can’t we just say Barry is wrong?
He’d be wrong if he was talking about what physicists talk about when they refer to sound. He’d not be wrong if he was talking about what lots of other people talk about when they refer to “sound”.
“Sound” is a word that in our language circumscribes two different categories of phenomena—the acoustic vibration (that doesn’t require a listener), and the qualia of the sense of hearing (that does require a listener). In the circumstances of the English language the two meanings use the same word. That doesn’t necessitate for one meaning to be valid and the other meaning to be invalid. They’re both valid, they’re just different.
If I say “you have the right to bear arms” I mean a different thing with the words ‘arms’ than if I say “human arms are longer than monkey arms”, but that doesn’t make one meaning of the words ‘arms’ wrong and the other right.
The analogy I’ve always appreciated was that my map has one pixel for both my apartment and my neighbors. So why do they get mad when I go through the window and shower there? It’s mine too, just look at the map, sheesh!
Where do definitions come from?
Usage. Dave interprets a sign from Jenny as referring to something, then he tries using the same sign to refer to the same thing, and if that usage of the sign is easily understood it tends to spread like that. The dictionary definition just records the common usages that have developed in the population.
For instance, how does the alien know what Takahiro means when he extends his index finger toward earth in this Japanese commercial? The alien just assumes it means he can find more chocolate bars on planet earth. If the alien gets to earth and finds more chocolate, he(?) is probably going to decide that his interpretation of the sign is at least somewhat reliable, and update for future interactions with humans.
I’d agree that’s generally how it works. I apologize, I probably should have said something like “Where do you think definitions come from?”, I was trying to figure out CharlesR’s thought process re: physicalists, above.
My problem with Barry was he wants to include the words perception of in his definition for sound but has different rules when talking about light.
That was yesterday. I’ve updated. I’ll write more when I’ve had a chance to clarify my thoughts.
Okay, thanks!
How could you endorse the first part without endorsing the second part? Doesn’t the first part already include the second part?
After all, it says “within the range of hearing and of a level sufficiently strong to be heard”. What could that mean if not “sufficient to generate the sensation stimulated in organs of hearing by such vibrations”?
This is the part I endorse.
“Sound is a mechanical wave that is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through a solid, liquid, or gas.”
It does not require the presence of a listener. Nor need it be in a certain range of frequencies. (That would just be a sound you cannot hear.)
What I am saying is, when Barry replies as he does, why don’t we just say, “You are confused about what is and is not sound. Go ask the physicists, ‘What is sound?’ and then we can continue this conversation, or if you don’t want to bother, you can take my word for it.”
When physicists have a consensus view of a phenomenon, we shouldn’t argue over definitions. We should use their definitions, provisionally, of course.
No one thinks it makes sense to argue over what is or is not an atom. I don’t see why ‘sound’ should be in a different category.
I would need more detail to evaluate the modified scenario. As it stands, what I wrote seems trivially to survive the new challenge.