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Si­mu­lacrum Levels

TagLast edit: Dec 26, 2023, 7:48 AM by Yoav Ravid

Simulacrum Levels are a framework for analyzing different motivations people can have for making statements.

One way to test which level someone is on is what would make them say the opposite of what they say now:

More descriptions of the four levels:

By Strawperson:

By Zvi:

A concrete example of the above from Michael Vassar:

Zvi describes the four children of the Seder (Passover) as the four (and one extra) simulacrum levels:

“The wicked understand, acknowledge and value the Wise—they depend on the Wise for their own cynical gain. The simple don’t see the point of wisdom. Those who do not know how to ask don’t even know wisdom is a thing.” —The Four Children of the Seder as the Simulacra Levels


The origin of this framework is in Simulacra and Simulation by sociologist Jean Baudrillard.

Si­mu­lacra Levels and their Interactions

ZviJun 15, 2020, 1:10 PM
200 points
51 comments17 min readLW link1 review
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

Unify­ing the Si­mu­lacra Definitions

ZviAug 3, 2020, 12:10 PM
84 points
31 comments12 min readLW link
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

The Four Chil­dren of the Seder as the Si­mu­lacra Levels

ZviSep 7, 2020, 3:00 PM
82 points
17 comments16 min readLW link1 review
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

Si­mu­lacra and Subjectivity

BenquoMar 5, 2020, 4:25 PM
100 points
33 comments3 min readLW link2 reviews
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

Nega­tive Feed­back and Simulacra

ElizabethApr 29, 2020, 2:00 AM
156 points
24 comments9 min readLW link1 review
(acesounderglass.com)

On Nega­tive Feed­back and Simulacra

ZviMay 3, 2020, 5:00 PM
47 points
7 comments29 min readLW link
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

Si­mu­lacra Levels Summary

ZviJan 30, 2023, 1:40 PM
75 points
14 comments7 min readLW link
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

Si­mu­lacrum 3 As Stag-Hunt Strategy

johnswentworthJan 26, 2021, 7:40 PM
183 points
37 comments4 min readLW link3 reviews

Sig­nal­ling & Simulacra

abramdemskiNov 14, 2020, 7:24 PM
63 points
30 comments5 min readLW link

A sketch of ‘Si­mu­lacra Levels and their In­ter­ac­tions’

Yoav RavidAug 4, 2020, 9:13 AM
44 points
2 comments1 min readLW link

A Crisper Ex­pla­na­tion of Si­mu­lacrum Levels

Thane RuthenisDec 23, 2023, 10:13 PM
90 points
13 comments13 min readLW link

Ex­cerpts from a larger dis­cus­sion about simulacra

BenquoApr 10, 2019, 9:27 PM
53 points
40 comments6 min readLW link5 reviews
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

18 pos­si­ble mean­ings of “I Like Red”

ozziegooenAug 23, 2021, 11:25 PM
29 points
14 comments3 min readLW link

[Question] What con­fu­sions do peo­ple have about simu­lacrum lev­els?

johnswentworthDec 14, 2020, 8:20 PM
28 points
31 comments1 min readLW link

A case study in simu­lacra lev­els and the Four Chil­dren of the Seder

DirectedEvolutionSep 14, 2020, 10:31 PM
32 points
1 comment4 min readLW link

[Question] What is meant by Si­mul­cra Levels?

Chris_LeongJun 17, 2020, 2:20 AM
21 points
17 comments1 min readLW link1 review

Si­mu­lacrum Levels of Trust

alkexrJun 30, 2021, 10:14 AM
21 points
1 comment3 min readLW link

Blame games

BenquoMay 6, 2019, 2:38 AM
46 points
13 comments8 min readLW link
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

Notes on Innocence

David GrossJan 26, 2024, 2:45 PM
13 points
21 comments19 min readLW link

My ver­sion of Si­mu­lacra Levels

Daniel KokotajloApr 26, 2023, 3:50 PM
42 points
15 comments3 min readLW link

We should not raise awareness

lsusrMar 1, 2021, 8:46 AM
36 points
21 comments2 min readLW link

“Ob­jec­tive vs So­cial Real­ity” vs “Si­mu­lacra 1/​3″

RaemonMar 17, 2021, 10:15 PM
27 points
5 comments1 min readLW link

Face­book is Si­mu­lacra Level 3, An­dreessen is Level 4

Ben PaceApr 28, 2021, 5:38 PM
52 points
12 comments2 min readLW link

Can crimes be dis­cussed liter­ally?

BenquoMar 22, 2020, 8:17 PM
102 points
38 comments2 min readLW link3 reviews
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

We Fell For It

Nicholas / Heather KrossFeb 5, 2025, 3:07 AM
−2 points
8 comments3 min readLW link
(www.thinkingmuchbetter.com)

How to Bounded Distrust

ZviJan 9, 2023, 1:10 PM
120 points
17 comments4 min readLW link1 review
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

Shut­ting Down the Light­cone Offices

Mar 14, 2023, 10:47 PM
337 points
103 comments17 min readLW link2 reviews

Ac­tors and scribes, words and deeds

BenquoApr 26, 2017, 5:12 AM
38 points
5 comments9 min readLW link

Kinds of Motivation

SableJul 13, 2024, 3:52 PM
7 points
2 comments7 min readLW link
(affablyevil.substack.com)

“You’re the most beau­tiful girl in the world” and Wittgen­stei­nian Lan­guage Games

Chris_LeongApr 20, 2024, 2:54 PM
5 points
18 comments1 min readLW link

Ap­ply­ing simu­lacrum lev­els to hob­bies, in­ter­ests and goals

DMMFMar 17, 2024, 4:18 PM
15 points
2 comments4 min readLW link
(danfrank.ca)

Blatant lies are the best kind!

BenquoJul 3, 2019, 8:45 PM
26 points
17 comments5 min readLW link
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

Hufflepuff Cynicism

abramdemskiFeb 13, 2018, 2:15 AM
25 points
17 comments6 min readLW link

Imag­ine a world where Microsoft em­ploy­ees used Bing

Christopher KingMar 31, 2023, 6:36 PM
6 points
2 comments2 min readLW link

The Dark Mir­a­cle of Optics

Suspended ReasonJun 24, 2020, 3:09 AM
27 points
5 comments8 min readLW link

Night­mare of the Perfectly Principled

BenquoNov 2, 2017, 9:10 AM
14 points
14 comments8 min readLW link
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

The Outer Levels

JerdleFeb 3, 2025, 2:30 PM
2 points
3 comments6 min readLW link
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