Hm. In Chapter 74, we learn that all ritual magic requires a sacrifice, and Harry muses about all the pulled punches in wizard warfare. Iiinteresting.
Especially since Quirrell/Voldemort specifically mentions that it is possible to sacrifice “a portion” of one’s own magical power—permanently—to achieve ‘great effects’. I imagine a nefarious individual could conceive of a rite whereby the sacrifice of another wizard’s life—and by extension, his magic—would cause at least some portion of that magic to be transferred to yourself.
Perhaps older wizards were more powerful because… they had more power? One could easily conceive of Godric Griffindor using this method of execution upon potential Dark Lords in order to combat more-powerful ones.
That seems like an effective method of imprisonment. Force the wizard to expend their power permanently in rituals (or just one powerful ritual). Such a prison would be significantly safer than Azkaban, since any wizards which escape would be effectively useless. They would be permanently helpless; some might consider it an even worse fate than dementors.
On further thought, perhaps that is why the public accepts dementors. Imagine what the prison system could have been before dementors were harnessed for prison work. The state would have an incentive to label people as criminals, so that it could burn their magic. The entire situation would degrade into an ever worsening police state. The discovery of dementors for prison use would be a humanitarian breakthrough akin to the abolishing of Capital Punishment.
It’s also straight out of Vampire: the Masquerade—Vampires can become stronger and more vampire-ish by eating the “souls” of other vampires. This is considered a heinous crime in vampire society and is punishable by Final Death.
It’s also straight out of Vampire: the Masquerade—Vampires can become stronger and more vampire-ish by eating the “souls” of other vampires. This is considered a heinous crime in vampire society and is punishable by Final Death.
Which means you’d better make sure you drink a lot of vampire souls before they catch you. All of them if possible.
Huh, I thought the obvious precedent was Larry Niven’s story about a world where even minor crimes are punishable by death so that your organs can be harvested for transplantation...
Such a prison would be significantly safer than Azkaban, since any wizards which escape would be effectively useless. They would be permanently helpless.
If they had such a plan which really truly required them to be non-magical* and somehow was superior to all magical plans, they could just burn their power themselves...
* This makes me very wary as it sounds perilously close to conjunction fallacy. The set of ‘non-magical \/ magical plans’ ought to be larger than either subset...
Example: Have your enemy burn your magic. Your enemy thinks you are safe and lets their guard down. Your minion sacrifices themselves and you absorb their magic. You win.
Admittedly this plan will involve more than three things going right in a row.
Your minion sacrifices themselves and you absorb their magic.
I was going to say that this step seems like an assumption, except Eliezer just made Dumbledore say that was the secret to Grindelwald’s success, so...
But while his Muggle allies yet made blood sacrifice to sustain him, Grindelwald would not have fallen.
He never said that his Muggle allies were killing themselves; the blood sacrifice mentioned could easily be from those who were killed in the Nazi extermination camps.
He never said that his Muggle allies were killing themselves; the blood sacrifice mentioned could easily be from those who were killed in the Nazi extermination camps.
Is there a difference, from the magical point of view, between Muggle allies slaughtering each other to fuel Grindelwald, and slaughtering non-allied Muggles to fuel Grindelwald?
Arguably, his Muggle allies (assuming, as usual, that these are the Nazis) were indeed sacrificing themselves: they started a war which they lost, leading to their deaths (in many cases) by war, hanging, or suicide (the last including the Muggle Fuehrer himself).
However, I interpreted this as Sheaman did; sacrificing others may be less powerful, but it was a lot of others.
In a number of magic systems, the willingness of a sacrifice can have a huge impact on its effectiveness, ranging anywhere from a willing sacrifice granting significantly more power than the unwilling to requiring the sacrifice to be willing for it to work at all.
I’m uncertain where Potterverse stands on this, let alone MOR!Potterverse.
Assuming Voldemort’s ritual in GoF was more than empty words, willingness is important, or at least notable, given:
Bone of the father, unknowingly given, you will renew your son. Flesh of the servant, willingly given, you will revive your master. Blood of the enemy, forcibly taken, you will resurrect your foe.
Italics added to emphasize parts concerning consent.
Also, many parents in the holocaust were forced to either leave there children or die. Many were forced to sacrifce themselves for their significant other or watch them both die. Consent (as wormtail shows) can be based on a wide variety of factors that might not involve you being truly aligned with how you feel about the ritual itself. A muggle might walk into the gas chamber willingly to save his/her spouses life but the harry potter verse never deals with “how much consent is consent”.
Sure. So in one ritual we know of, consent and lack of consent matters. But that doesn’t argue much one way or the other about the proposed scheme for how burning your magic might be a winning strategy.
My point in bringing it up was that we don’t know if his minions were sacrificing themselves or others, so the last step is still an assumption.
Even if Grindelwald managed to have minions loyal enough to sacrifice themselves, though, there’s no guarantee that anyone else’s minions would be that loyal. I’d say that it’s a gamble pretty much no matter what.
Especially since Quirrell/Voldemort specifically mentions that it is possible to sacrifice “a portion” of one’s own magical power—permanently—to achieve ‘great effects’. I imagine a nefarious individual could conceive of a rite whereby the sacrifice of another wizard’s life—and by extension, his magic—would cause at least some portion of that magic to be transferred to yourself.
Perhaps older wizards were more powerful because… they had more power? One could easily conceive of Godric Griffindor using this method of execution upon potential Dark Lords in order to combat more-powerful ones.
That seems like an effective method of imprisonment. Force the wizard to expend their power permanently in rituals (or just one powerful ritual). Such a prison would be significantly safer than Azkaban, since any wizards which escape would be effectively useless. They would be permanently helpless; some might consider it an even worse fate than dementors.
On further thought, perhaps that is why the public accepts dementors. Imagine what the prison system could have been before dementors were harnessed for prison work. The state would have an incentive to label people as criminals, so that it could burn their magic. The entire situation would degrade into an ever worsening police state. The discovery of dementors for prison use would be a humanitarian breakthrough akin to the abolishing of Capital Punishment.
I’m impressed. That’s WH40K-level crapsackiness.
It’s also straight out of Vampire: the Masquerade—Vampires can become stronger and more vampire-ish by eating the “souls” of other vampires. This is considered a heinous crime in vampire society and is punishable by Final Death.
Which means you’d better make sure you drink a lot of vampire souls before they catch you. All of them if possible.
Huh, I thought the obvious precedent was Larry Niven’s story about a world where even minor crimes are punishable by death so that your organs can be harvested for transplantation...
Well, that too. ;)
Apart from, y’know, still being humans, right?
If any of those previous Dark Wizards were dangerous even as ordinary humans, they wouldn’t’ve lost in the first place.
Unless they had some kind of really cunning plan.
If they had such a plan which really truly required them to be non-magical* and somehow was superior to all magical plans, they could just burn their power themselves...
* This makes me very wary as it sounds perilously close to conjunction fallacy. The set of ‘non-magical \/ magical plans’ ought to be larger than either subset...
Example: Have your enemy burn your magic. Your enemy thinks you are safe and lets their guard down. Your minion sacrifices themselves and you absorb their magic. You win.
Admittedly this plan will involve more than three things going right in a row.
I was going to say that this step seems like an assumption, except Eliezer just made Dumbledore say that was the secret to Grindelwald’s success, so...
He never said that his Muggle allies were killing themselves; the blood sacrifice mentioned could easily be from those who were killed in the Nazi extermination camps.
Is there a difference, from the magical point of view, between Muggle allies slaughtering each other to fuel Grindelwald, and slaughtering non-allied Muggles to fuel Grindelwald?
Arguably, his Muggle allies (assuming, as usual, that these are the Nazis) were indeed sacrificing themselves: they started a war which they lost, leading to their deaths (in many cases) by war, hanging, or suicide (the last including the Muggle Fuehrer himself).
However, I interpreted this as Sheaman did; sacrificing others may be less powerful, but it was a lot of others.
In a number of magic systems, the willingness of a sacrifice can have a huge impact on its effectiveness, ranging anywhere from a willing sacrifice granting significantly more power than the unwilling to requiring the sacrifice to be willing for it to work at all.
I’m uncertain where Potterverse stands on this, let alone MOR!Potterverse.
Assuming Voldemort’s ritual in GoF was more than empty words, willingness is important, or at least notable, given:
Italics added to emphasize parts concerning consent.
Also, many parents in the holocaust were forced to either leave there children or die. Many were forced to sacrifce themselves for their significant other or watch them both die. Consent (as wormtail shows) can be based on a wide variety of factors that might not involve you being truly aligned with how you feel about the ritual itself. A muggle might walk into the gas chamber willingly to save his/her spouses life but the harry potter verse never deals with “how much consent is consent”.
I wish that this comment weren’t buried behind “continue this thread”; I don’t want to be the only one who votes it up.
Sure. So in one ritual we know of, consent and lack of consent matters. But that doesn’t argue much one way or the other about the proposed scheme for how burning your magic might be a winning strategy.
My point in bringing it up was that we don’t know if his minions were sacrificing themselves or others, so the last step is still an assumption.
Even if Grindelwald managed to have minions loyal enough to sacrifice themselves, though, there’s no guarantee that anyone else’s minions would be that loyal. I’d say that it’s a gamble pretty much no matter what.