But then “sane and intelligent” is really just a camouflaged assertion of the comment’s worthiness, rather than the claimant’s, which reduces this formulation of the POC to “treat everyone’s comments as though the comments are cogent”. [..] (“oh, so I’m supposed to treat all comments as cogent, even if they sound idiotic?”
Yep.
You have assumed that cannot be the correct interpretation of the PoC, without saying why. In light of your other comments, it could well be that you are assuming that the PoC can only be true by correspondence to reality or false, by lack of correspondence. But norms, guidelines, heurisitics, advice, lie on an orthogonal axis to true/false: they are guides to action, not passive reflections. Their equivalent of the true/false axis are the Works/Does Not Work axis. So would adoption of the PoC work as way of understanding people, and calibrating your confidence levels?...that is the question.
But norms, guidelines, heurisitics, advice, lie on an orthogonal axis to true/false: they are guides to action, not passive reflections. Their equivalent of the true/false axis are the Works/Does Not Work axis. So would adoption of the PoC work as way of understanding people, and calibrating your confidence levels?...that is the question.
OK, but that’s not an adequate basis for recommending a given norm/guideline/heuristic. One has to at least sketch an answer to the question, drawing on evidence and/or argument (as RobinZ sought to).
You have assumed that cannot be the correct interpretation of the PoC, without saying why.
Well, because it’s hard for me to believe you really believe that interpretation and understand it in the same way I would naturally operationalize it: namely, noticing and throwing away any initial suspicion I have that a comment’s wrong, and then forcing myself to pretend the comment must be correct in some obscure way.
As soon as I imagine applying that procedure to a concrete case, I cringe at how patently silly & unhelpful it seems. Here’s a recent-ish, specific example of me expressing disagreement with a statement I immediately suspected was incorrect.
What specifically would I have done if I’d treated the seemingly patently wrong comment as cogent instead? Read the comment, thought “that can’t be right”, then shaken my head and decided, “no, let’s say that is right”, and then...? Upvoted the comment? Trusted but verified (i.e. not actually treated the comment as cogent)? Replied with “I presume this comment is correct, great job”? Surely these are not courses of action you mean to recommend (the first & third because they actively support misinformation, the second because I expect you’d find it insufficiently charitable). Surely I am being uncharitable in operationalizing your recommendation this way...even though that does seem to me the most literal, straightforward operationalization open to me. Surely I misunderstand you. That’s why I assumed “that cannot be the correct interpretation” of your POC.
Well, because it’s hard for me to believe you really believe that interpretation and understand it in the same way I would naturally operationalize it: namely, noticing and throwing away any initial suspicion I have that a comment’s wrong, and then forcing myself to pretend the comment must be correct in some obscure way.
If I may step in at this point; “cogent” does not mean “true”. The principle of charity (as I understand it) merely recommends treating any commenter as reasonably sane and intelligent. This does not mean he can’t be wrong—he may be misinformed, he may have made a minor error in reasoning, he may simply not know as much about the subject as you do. Alternatively, you may be misinformed, or have made a minor error in reasoning, or not know as much about the subject as the other commenter...
So the correct course of action then, in my opinion, is to find the source of error and to be polite about it. The example post you linked to was a great example—you provided statistics, backed them up, and linked to your sources. You weren’t rude about it, you simply stated facts. As far as I could see, you treated RomeoStevens as sane, intelligent, and simply lacking in certain pieces of pertinent historical knowledge—which you have now provided.
(As to what RomeoStevens said—it was cogent. That is to say, it was pertinent and relevant to the conversation at the time. That it was wrong does not change the fact that it was cogent; if it had been right it would have been a worthwhile point to make.)
If I may step in at this point; “cogent” does not mean “true”.
Yes, and were I asked to give synonyms for “cogent”, I’d probably say “compelling” or “convincing” [edit: rather than “true”]. But an empirical claim is only compelling or convincing (and hence may only be cogent) if I have grounds for believing it very likely true. Hence “treat all comments as cogent, even if they sound idiotic” translates [edit: for empirical comments, at least] to “treat all comments as if very likely true, even if they sound idiotic”.
Now you mention the issue of relevance, I think that, yeah, I agree that relevance is part of the definition of “cogent”, but I also reckon that relevance is only a necessary condition for cogency, not a sufficient one. And so...
As to what RomeoStevens said—it was cogent. That is to say, it was pertinent and relevant to the conversation at the time.
...I have to push back here. While pertinent, the comment was not only wrong but (to me) obviously very likely wrong, and RomeoStevens gave no evidence for it. So I found it unreasonable, unconvincing, and unpersuasive — the opposite of dictionary definitions of “cogent”. Pertinence & relevance are only a subset of cogency.
The principle of charity (as I understand it) merely recommends treating any commenter as reasonably sane and intelligent. This does not mean he can’t be wrong—he may be misinformed, he may have made a minor error in reasoning, he may simply not know as much about the subject as you do.
That’s why I wrote that that version of the POC strikes me as watered down; someone being “reasonably sane and intelligent” is totally consistent with their just having made a trivial blunder, and is (in my experience) only weak evidence that they haven’t just made a trivial blunder, so “treat commenters as reasonably sane and intelligent” dissolves into “treat commenters pretty much as I’d treat anyone”.
Hence “treat all comments as cogent, even if they sound idiotic” translates [edit: for empirical comments, at least] to “treat all comments as if very likely true, even if they sound idiotic”.
Then “cogent” was probably the wrong word to use.
I’d need a word that means pertinent, relevant, and believed to have been most likely true (or at least useful to say) by the person who said it; but not necessarily actually true.
While pertinent, the comment was not only wrong but (to me) obviously very likely wrong, and RomeoStevens gave no evidence for it. So I found it unreasonable, unconvincing, and unpersuasive — the opposite of dictionary definitions of “cogent”. Pertinence & relevance are only a subset of cogency.
I think at this point, so as not to get stuck on semantics, we should probably taboo the word ‘cogent’.
(Having said that, I do agree anyone with access to the statistics you quoted would most likely find RomeoSteven’s comments unreasonable, unconvincing and unpersuasive).
so “treat commenters as reasonably sane and intelligent” dissolves into “treat commenters pretty much as I’d treat anyone”.
Then you may very well be effectively applying the principle already. Looking at your reply to RomeoStevens supports this assertion.
TheAncientGeek assented to that choice of word, so I stuck with it. His conception of the POC might well be different from yours and everyone else’s (which is a reason I’m trying to pin down precisely what TheAncientGeek means).
Fair enough, I was checking different dictionaries (and I’ve hitherto never noticed other people using “cogent” for “pertinent”).
Then you may very well be effectively applying the principle already. Looking at your reply to RomeoStevens supports this assertion.
Maybe, though I’m confused here by TheAncientGeek saying in one breath that I applied the POC to RomeoStevens, but then agreeing (“Thats exactly what I mean.”) in the next breath with a definition of the POC that implies I didn’t apply the POC to RomeoStevens.
I think that you and I are almost entirely in agreement, then. (Not sure about TheAncientGeek).
Maybe, though I’m confused here by TheAncientGeek saying in one breath that I applied the POC to RomeoStevens, but then agreeing (“Thats exactly what I mean.”) in the next breath with a definition of the POC that implies I didn’t apply the POC to RomeoStevens.
I think you’re dealing with double-illusion-of-transparency issues here. He gave you a definition (“treat everyone’s comments as though they were made by someone sane and intelligent at the time”) by which he meant some very specific concept which he best approximated by that phrase (call this Concept A). You then considered this phrase, and mapped it to a similar-but-not-the-same concept (Concept B) which you defined and tried to point out a shortcoming in (“namely, noticing and throwing away any initial suspicion I have that a comment’s wrong, and then forcing myself to pretend the comment must be correct in some obscure way.”).
Now, TheAncientGeek is looking at your words (describing Concept B) and reading into them the very similar Concept A; where your post in response to RomeoStevens satisfies Concept A but not Concept B.
Nailing down the difference between A and B will be extremely tricky and will probably require both of you to describe your concepts in different words several times. (The English language is a remarkably lossy means of communication).
Your diagnosis sounds all too likely. I’d hoped to minimize the risk of this kind of thing by concretizing and focusing on a specific, publicly-observable example, but that might not have helped.
Yes, that was an example of PoC, because satt assumed RomeoStevens had failed to look up the figures, rather than insanely believing that 120,000ish < 500ish.
But norms, guidelines, heurisitics, advice, lie on an orthogonal axis to true/false: they are guides to action, not passive reflections. Their equivalent of the true/false axis are the Works/Does Not Work axis. So would adoption of the PoC work as way of understanding people, and calibrating your confidence levels?...that is the question.
OK, but that’s not an adequate basis for recommending a given norm/guideline/heuristic. One has to at least sketch an answer to the question, drawing on evidence and/or argument
Yes, but that’s beside the original point. What you call a realistic guideline doesnt work as a guideline at all, and therefore isnt a a charitable interpretation of the PoC.
Justifying that PoC as something that works at what it is supposed to do, is a question that can be answered, but it is a separate question.
namely, noticing and throwing away any initial suspicion I have that a comment’s wrong, and then forcing myself to pretend the comment must be correct in some obscure way.
Thats exactly what I mean.
What specifically would I have done if I’d treated the seemingly patently wrong comment as cogent instead?
Cogent doesn’t mean right. You actually succeeded in treating it as wrong for sane reasons, ie failure to check data.
But norms, guidelines, heurisitics, advice, lie on an orthogonal axis to true/false: they are guides to action, not passive reflections. [...]
OK, but [...]
Yes, but that’s beside the original point.
You brought it up!
What you call a realistic guideline doesnt work as a guideline at all, and therefore isnt a a charitable interpretation of the PoC.
I continue tothink that the version I called realistic is no less workable than your version.
Justifying that PoC as something that works at what it is supposed to do, is a question that can be answered, but it is a separate question.
Again, it’s a question you introduced. (And labelled “the question”.) But I’m content to put it aside.
noticing and throwing away any initial suspicion I have that a comment’s wrong, and then forcing myself to pretend the comment must be correct in some obscure way.
Thats exactly what I mean.
But surely it isn’t. Just 8 minutes earlier you wrote that a case where I did the opposite was an “example of PoC”.
Yep.
You have assumed that cannot be the correct interpretation of the PoC, without saying why. In light of your other comments, it could well be that you are assuming that the PoC can only be true by correspondence to reality or false, by lack of correspondence. But norms, guidelines, heurisitics, advice, lie on an orthogonal axis to true/false: they are guides to action, not passive reflections. Their equivalent of the true/false axis are the Works/Does Not Work axis. So would adoption of the PoC work as way of understanding people, and calibrating your confidence levels?...that is the question.
OK, but that’s not an adequate basis for recommending a given norm/guideline/heuristic. One has to at least sketch an answer to the question, drawing on evidence and/or argument (as RobinZ sought to).
Well, because it’s hard for me to believe you really believe that interpretation and understand it in the same way I would naturally operationalize it: namely, noticing and throwing away any initial suspicion I have that a comment’s wrong, and then forcing myself to pretend the comment must be correct in some obscure way.
As soon as I imagine applying that procedure to a concrete case, I cringe at how patently silly & unhelpful it seems. Here’s a recent-ish, specific example of me expressing disagreement with a statement I immediately suspected was incorrect.
What specifically would I have done if I’d treated the seemingly patently wrong comment as cogent instead? Read the comment, thought “that can’t be right”, then shaken my head and decided, “no, let’s say that is right”, and then...? Upvoted the comment? Trusted but verified (i.e. not actually treated the comment as cogent)? Replied with “I presume this comment is correct, great job”? Surely these are not courses of action you mean to recommend (the first & third because they actively support misinformation, the second because I expect you’d find it insufficiently charitable). Surely I am being uncharitable in operationalizing your recommendation this way...even though that does seem to me the most literal, straightforward operationalization open to me. Surely I misunderstand you. That’s why I assumed “that cannot be the correct interpretation” of your POC.
If I may step in at this point; “cogent” does not mean “true”. The principle of charity (as I understand it) merely recommends treating any commenter as reasonably sane and intelligent. This does not mean he can’t be wrong—he may be misinformed, he may have made a minor error in reasoning, he may simply not know as much about the subject as you do. Alternatively, you may be misinformed, or have made a minor error in reasoning, or not know as much about the subject as the other commenter...
So the correct course of action then, in my opinion, is to find the source of error and to be polite about it. The example post you linked to was a great example—you provided statistics, backed them up, and linked to your sources. You weren’t rude about it, you simply stated facts. As far as I could see, you treated RomeoStevens as sane, intelligent, and simply lacking in certain pieces of pertinent historical knowledge—which you have now provided.
(As to what RomeoStevens said—it was cogent. That is to say, it was pertinent and relevant to the conversation at the time. That it was wrong does not change the fact that it was cogent; if it had been right it would have been a worthwhile point to make.)
Yes, and were I asked to give synonyms for “cogent”, I’d probably say “compelling” or “convincing” [edit: rather than “true”]. But an empirical claim is only compelling or convincing (and hence may only be cogent) if I have grounds for believing it very likely true. Hence “treat all comments as cogent, even if they sound idiotic” translates [edit: for empirical comments, at least] to “treat all comments as if very likely true, even if they sound idiotic”.
Now you mention the issue of relevance, I think that, yeah, I agree that relevance is part of the definition of “cogent”, but I also reckon that relevance is only a necessary condition for cogency, not a sufficient one. And so...
...I have to push back here. While pertinent, the comment was not only wrong but (to me) obviously very likely wrong, and RomeoStevens gave no evidence for it. So I found it unreasonable, unconvincing, and unpersuasive — the opposite of dictionary definitions of “cogent”. Pertinence & relevance are only a subset of cogency.
That’s why I wrote that that version of the POC strikes me as watered down; someone being “reasonably sane and intelligent” is totally consistent with their just having made a trivial blunder, and is (in my experience) only weak evidence that they haven’t just made a trivial blunder, so “treat commenters as reasonably sane and intelligent” dissolves into “treat commenters pretty much as I’d treat anyone”.
Then “cogent” was probably the wrong word to use.
I’d need a word that means pertinent, relevant, and believed to have been most likely true (or at least useful to say) by the person who said it; but not necessarily actually true.
Okay, I appear to have been using a different definition (see definition two).
I think at this point, so as not to get stuck on semantics, we should probably taboo the word ‘cogent’.
(Having said that, I do agree anyone with access to the statistics you quoted would most likely find RomeoSteven’s comments unreasonable, unconvincing and unpersuasive).
Then you may very well be effectively applying the principle already. Looking at your reply to RomeoStevens supports this assertion.
TheAncientGeek assented to that choice of word, so I stuck with it. His conception of the POC might well be different from yours and everyone else’s (which is a reason I’m trying to pin down precisely what TheAncientGeek means).
Fair enough, I was checking different dictionaries (and I’ve hitherto never noticed other people using “cogent” for “pertinent”).
Maybe, though I’m confused here by TheAncientGeek saying in one breath that I applied the POC to RomeoStevens, but then agreeing (“Thats exactly what I mean.”) in the next breath with a definition of the POC that implies I didn’t apply the POC to RomeoStevens.
I think that you and I are almost entirely in agreement, then. (Not sure about TheAncientGeek).
I think you’re dealing with double-illusion-of-transparency issues here. He gave you a definition (“treat everyone’s comments as though they were made by someone sane and intelligent at the time”) by which he meant some very specific concept which he best approximated by that phrase (call this Concept A). You then considered this phrase, and mapped it to a similar-but-not-the-same concept (Concept B) which you defined and tried to point out a shortcoming in (“namely, noticing and throwing away any initial suspicion I have that a comment’s wrong, and then forcing myself to pretend the comment must be correct in some obscure way.”).
Now, TheAncientGeek is looking at your words (describing Concept B) and reading into them the very similar Concept A; where your post in response to RomeoStevens satisfies Concept A but not Concept B.
Nailing down the difference between A and B will be extremely tricky and will probably require both of you to describe your concepts in different words several times. (The English language is a remarkably lossy means of communication).
Your diagnosis sounds all too likely. I’d hoped to minimize the risk of this kind of thing by concretizing and focusing on a specific, publicly-observable example, but that might not have helped.
Yes, that was an example of PoC, because satt assumed RomeoStevens had failed to look up the figures, rather than insanely believing that 120,000ish < 500ish.
Yes, but that’s beside the original point. What you call a realistic guideline doesnt work as a guideline at all, and therefore isnt a a charitable interpretation of the PoC.
Justifying that PoC as something that works at what it is supposed to do, is a question that can be answered, but it is a separate question.
Thats exactly what I mean.
Cogent doesn’t mean right. You actually succeeded in treating it as wrong for sane reasons, ie failure to check data.
You brought it up!
I continue to think that the version I called realistic is no less workable than your version.
Again, it’s a question you introduced. (And labelled “the question”.) But I’m content to put it aside.
But surely it isn’t. Just 8 minutes earlier you wrote that a case where I did the opposite was an “example of PoC”.
See my response to CCC.