If I may step in at this point; “cogent” does not mean “true”.
Yes, and were I asked to give synonyms for “cogent”, I’d probably say “compelling” or “convincing” [edit: rather than “true”]. But an empirical claim is only compelling or convincing (and hence may only be cogent) if I have grounds for believing it very likely true. Hence “treat all comments as cogent, even if they sound idiotic” translates [edit: for empirical comments, at least] to “treat all comments as if very likely true, even if they sound idiotic”.
Now you mention the issue of relevance, I think that, yeah, I agree that relevance is part of the definition of “cogent”, but I also reckon that relevance is only a necessary condition for cogency, not a sufficient one. And so...
As to what RomeoStevens said—it was cogent. That is to say, it was pertinent and relevant to the conversation at the time.
...I have to push back here. While pertinent, the comment was not only wrong but (to me) obviously very likely wrong, and RomeoStevens gave no evidence for it. So I found it unreasonable, unconvincing, and unpersuasive — the opposite of dictionary definitions of “cogent”. Pertinence & relevance are only a subset of cogency.
The principle of charity (as I understand it) merely recommends treating any commenter as reasonably sane and intelligent. This does not mean he can’t be wrong—he may be misinformed, he may have made a minor error in reasoning, he may simply not know as much about the subject as you do.
That’s why I wrote that that version of the POC strikes me as watered down; someone being “reasonably sane and intelligent” is totally consistent with their just having made a trivial blunder, and is (in my experience) only weak evidence that they haven’t just made a trivial blunder, so “treat commenters as reasonably sane and intelligent” dissolves into “treat commenters pretty much as I’d treat anyone”.
Hence “treat all comments as cogent, even if they sound idiotic” translates [edit: for empirical comments, at least] to “treat all comments as if very likely true, even if they sound idiotic”.
Then “cogent” was probably the wrong word to use.
I’d need a word that means pertinent, relevant, and believed to have been most likely true (or at least useful to say) by the person who said it; but not necessarily actually true.
While pertinent, the comment was not only wrong but (to me) obviously very likely wrong, and RomeoStevens gave no evidence for it. So I found it unreasonable, unconvincing, and unpersuasive — the opposite of dictionary definitions of “cogent”. Pertinence & relevance are only a subset of cogency.
I think at this point, so as not to get stuck on semantics, we should probably taboo the word ‘cogent’.
(Having said that, I do agree anyone with access to the statistics you quoted would most likely find RomeoSteven’s comments unreasonable, unconvincing and unpersuasive).
so “treat commenters as reasonably sane and intelligent” dissolves into “treat commenters pretty much as I’d treat anyone”.
Then you may very well be effectively applying the principle already. Looking at your reply to RomeoStevens supports this assertion.
TheAncientGeek assented to that choice of word, so I stuck with it. His conception of the POC might well be different from yours and everyone else’s (which is a reason I’m trying to pin down precisely what TheAncientGeek means).
Fair enough, I was checking different dictionaries (and I’ve hitherto never noticed other people using “cogent” for “pertinent”).
Then you may very well be effectively applying the principle already. Looking at your reply to RomeoStevens supports this assertion.
Maybe, though I’m confused here by TheAncientGeek saying in one breath that I applied the POC to RomeoStevens, but then agreeing (“Thats exactly what I mean.”) in the next breath with a definition of the POC that implies I didn’t apply the POC to RomeoStevens.
I think that you and I are almost entirely in agreement, then. (Not sure about TheAncientGeek).
Maybe, though I’m confused here by TheAncientGeek saying in one breath that I applied the POC to RomeoStevens, but then agreeing (“Thats exactly what I mean.”) in the next breath with a definition of the POC that implies I didn’t apply the POC to RomeoStevens.
I think you’re dealing with double-illusion-of-transparency issues here. He gave you a definition (“treat everyone’s comments as though they were made by someone sane and intelligent at the time”) by which he meant some very specific concept which he best approximated by that phrase (call this Concept A). You then considered this phrase, and mapped it to a similar-but-not-the-same concept (Concept B) which you defined and tried to point out a shortcoming in (“namely, noticing and throwing away any initial suspicion I have that a comment’s wrong, and then forcing myself to pretend the comment must be correct in some obscure way.”).
Now, TheAncientGeek is looking at your words (describing Concept B) and reading into them the very similar Concept A; where your post in response to RomeoStevens satisfies Concept A but not Concept B.
Nailing down the difference between A and B will be extremely tricky and will probably require both of you to describe your concepts in different words several times. (The English language is a remarkably lossy means of communication).
Your diagnosis sounds all too likely. I’d hoped to minimize the risk of this kind of thing by concretizing and focusing on a specific, publicly-observable example, but that might not have helped.
Yes, and were I asked to give synonyms for “cogent”, I’d probably say “compelling” or “convincing” [edit: rather than “true”]. But an empirical claim is only compelling or convincing (and hence may only be cogent) if I have grounds for believing it very likely true. Hence “treat all comments as cogent, even if they sound idiotic” translates [edit: for empirical comments, at least] to “treat all comments as if very likely true, even if they sound idiotic”.
Now you mention the issue of relevance, I think that, yeah, I agree that relevance is part of the definition of “cogent”, but I also reckon that relevance is only a necessary condition for cogency, not a sufficient one. And so...
...I have to push back here. While pertinent, the comment was not only wrong but (to me) obviously very likely wrong, and RomeoStevens gave no evidence for it. So I found it unreasonable, unconvincing, and unpersuasive — the opposite of dictionary definitions of “cogent”. Pertinence & relevance are only a subset of cogency.
That’s why I wrote that that version of the POC strikes me as watered down; someone being “reasonably sane and intelligent” is totally consistent with their just having made a trivial blunder, and is (in my experience) only weak evidence that they haven’t just made a trivial blunder, so “treat commenters as reasonably sane and intelligent” dissolves into “treat commenters pretty much as I’d treat anyone”.
Then “cogent” was probably the wrong word to use.
I’d need a word that means pertinent, relevant, and believed to have been most likely true (or at least useful to say) by the person who said it; but not necessarily actually true.
Okay, I appear to have been using a different definition (see definition two).
I think at this point, so as not to get stuck on semantics, we should probably taboo the word ‘cogent’.
(Having said that, I do agree anyone with access to the statistics you quoted would most likely find RomeoSteven’s comments unreasonable, unconvincing and unpersuasive).
Then you may very well be effectively applying the principle already. Looking at your reply to RomeoStevens supports this assertion.
TheAncientGeek assented to that choice of word, so I stuck with it. His conception of the POC might well be different from yours and everyone else’s (which is a reason I’m trying to pin down precisely what TheAncientGeek means).
Fair enough, I was checking different dictionaries (and I’ve hitherto never noticed other people using “cogent” for “pertinent”).
Maybe, though I’m confused here by TheAncientGeek saying in one breath that I applied the POC to RomeoStevens, but then agreeing (“Thats exactly what I mean.”) in the next breath with a definition of the POC that implies I didn’t apply the POC to RomeoStevens.
I think that you and I are almost entirely in agreement, then. (Not sure about TheAncientGeek).
I think you’re dealing with double-illusion-of-transparency issues here. He gave you a definition (“treat everyone’s comments as though they were made by someone sane and intelligent at the time”) by which he meant some very specific concept which he best approximated by that phrase (call this Concept A). You then considered this phrase, and mapped it to a similar-but-not-the-same concept (Concept B) which you defined and tried to point out a shortcoming in (“namely, noticing and throwing away any initial suspicion I have that a comment’s wrong, and then forcing myself to pretend the comment must be correct in some obscure way.”).
Now, TheAncientGeek is looking at your words (describing Concept B) and reading into them the very similar Concept A; where your post in response to RomeoStevens satisfies Concept A but not Concept B.
Nailing down the difference between A and B will be extremely tricky and will probably require both of you to describe your concepts in different words several times. (The English language is a remarkably lossy means of communication).
Your diagnosis sounds all too likely. I’d hoped to minimize the risk of this kind of thing by concretizing and focusing on a specific, publicly-observable example, but that might not have helped.