Mathematical facts are facts about well-defined what-if scenarios. We evolved to be able to consider such scenarios because they often bear a resemblance to what happens to us. So there is an explanation for how our beliefs about mathematics could become correlated with mathematical truth, even though this explanation is not causal. However, it is not entirely obvious how to tell a similar story about moral truths—why did we evolve to be able to perceive moral facts, if indeed we did?
I’m not saying that we perceive mathematical facts. Rather that if there is a non perceptual.and therefore non causal epistemology for mathematics, there could be for other things.
But they aren’t causally inert, they’re part of causality! Our universe runs on mathematical laws, and mathematics is mostly just a description (or extrapolation) of them. If there were weird carve-out exceptions for 2+2=5 in our physics, they would very much be incorporated into our mathematics. If we lived in a universe where physics operated by different mathematical laws, then our conception of mathematics would be correspondingly different.
You seem to be claiming that it is possible for mathematical truths such as 2+2=5 to be other than what they are; I can agree with this on an epistemological level (since we don’t know all mathematical truths) but on on ontological level, no: mathematical truths are necessary truths. This is the conventional view though I’m not really sure how to argue it to a skeptic: but if you don’t see why 2+2=4 is a necessary truth then I claim you don’t truly comprehend why 2+2=4.
Reason can still allow us to discover the moral facts, even if the moral facts don’t cause something. If you have 13 cakes, you can’t divide them into two equal halves. The number 2 doesn’t cause this but it explains that feature of reality. See also the Enoch paper that I reference for more on this.
We can communicate the meaning of mathematical facts in ways you can’t communicate the meaning of irreducibly normative moral facts. The former are intelligible, the latter aren’t. So it’s not clear you can even present us with an intelligible set of propositions in the form of putative “moral facts” for us to entertain whether or not reason could allow us to discover them. “Discover what?” We can ask, and you won’t be able to intelligibly communicate what it is we’re supposedly discovering. The kind of moral realism you endorse isn’t merely false, it’s not even intelligible.
If the moral facts are causally inert, then your belief in the existence of moral facts can’t be caused by the moral facts!
If the Mathematical facts are causally inert....
Mathematical facts are facts about well-defined what-if scenarios. We evolved to be able to consider such scenarios because they often bear a resemblance to what happens to us. So there is an explanation for how our beliefs about mathematics could become correlated with mathematical truth, even though this explanation is not causal. However, it is not entirely obvious how to tell a similar story about moral truths—why did we evolve to be able to perceive moral facts, if indeed we did?
I’m not saying that we perceive mathematical facts. Rather that if there is a non perceptual.and therefore non causal epistemology for mathematics, there could be for other things.
Sure, “could be”.
They are not! If two plus two equals five, two apples and two more apples would add up to five apples.
But they aren’t causally inert, they’re part of causality! Our universe runs on mathematical laws, and mathematics is mostly just a description (or extrapolation) of them. If there were weird carve-out exceptions for 2+2=5 in our physics, they would very much be incorporated into our mathematics. If we lived in a universe where physics operated by different mathematical laws, then our conception of mathematics would be correspondingly different.
I think this refutes Platonism, but I’m not sure.
You seem to be claiming that it is possible for mathematical truths such as 2+2=5 to be other than what they are; I can agree with this on an epistemological level (since we don’t know all mathematical truths) but on on ontological level, no: mathematical truths are necessary truths. This is the conventional view though I’m not really sure how to argue it to a skeptic: but if you don’t see why 2+2=4 is a necessary truth then I claim you don’t truly comprehend why 2+2=4.
Reason can still allow us to discover the moral facts, even if the moral facts don’t cause something. If you have 13 cakes, you can’t divide them into two equal halves. The number 2 doesn’t cause this but it explains that feature of reality. See also the Enoch paper that I reference for more on this.
We can communicate the meaning of mathematical facts in ways you can’t communicate the meaning of irreducibly normative moral facts. The former are intelligible, the latter aren’t. So it’s not clear you can even present us with an intelligible set of propositions in the form of putative “moral facts” for us to entertain whether or not reason could allow us to discover them. “Discover what?” We can ask, and you won’t be able to intelligibly communicate what it is we’re supposedly discovering. The kind of moral realism you endorse isn’t merely false, it’s not even intelligible.
You and I have talked about this a lot before, so no need to rehash it.