I’m not sure if I’d go all the way to good. Only an improvement over nothing
Why is “nothing” the alternative to compare a given job to?
When people complain about a job, they generally don’t say “I wish I was unemployed”, they say things like “I wish I was paid more” or “I wish I wasn’t forced to work as many hours for fear of losing my job” or “I wish I had better working conditions”.
To compare any job to unemployment seems to be missing the point of such complaints. It’s not that the people would prefer unemployment. They’d prefer a better job.
I’m comparing the job to the job not existing. Not to no job at all for an individual. We’d all prefer a better job for ourselves, and if we aren’t jerks, we’d prefer better jobs for others too. Until the robots replace all the shitty jobs and all forms of scarcity vanish I don’t see the point.
There are so many jobs on the labor market. If you have a job, then you must at least think it is better than the alternatives. How is this controversial?
At this point, you’re comparing two different versions of society, a society (A) where the job exists and a society (B) where the job doesn’t exist.
If you have a job, then you must at least think it is better than the alternatives.
But at this point, you’re comparing two different choices for an individual within the same society (A), choosing to have the particular job (choice A1) or quitting (choice A2).
Those are two different questions. E.g. imagine that the porn industry didn’t exist at all, for some magic reason. Wouldn’t the customer money financing it go to some other form of entertainment or product? What makes you think that the additional jobs that industry would create wouldn’t have less shitty working conditions than the porn industry?
The question of whether the existence of porn industry is positive or negative as a whole, therefore isn’t the same to whether any given individual in it should quit or not. The choices person has in timeline B aren’t necessarily the same they have in timeline A2.
At this point, you’re comparing two different versions of society, a society (A) where the job exists and a society (B) where the job doesn’t exist.
Yes.
But at this point, you’re comparing two different choices for an individual within the same society (A), choosing to have the particular job (choice A1) or quitting (choice A2).
Yes.
Those are two different questions. E.g. imagine that the porn industry didn’t exist at all, for some magic reason. Wouldn’t the customer money financing it go to some other form of entertainment or product? What makes you think that the additional jobs that industry would create wouldn’t have less shitty working conditions than the porn industry?
Because there is only so much demand for goods, and only so much investment. The how any why of porn suggests that the mainstream entertainment industry probably isn’t where that money would go e.g. probably towards prostitution which is even less humane. And doesn’t pay as well.
More importantly, the reason people invest in porn is because they think that would be the best return on their dollar. The drive on investment is of course demand, utility represented by dollars in the economy. A redirection of that would have to be to the perceived second and third best percieved investment. If you think people who invest in porn are dumb and the percieved second best investmentwould generate better returns, then OK. But I tend to assume every one is an (imperfect) rational actor, who’s trying to generate the best return on investment, so changing that would be a bad Thing (TM).
If you don’t know why good returns on investment are good, realize that if I want to send all my money to AMF, I need to get it from somewhere. If you want a job from me, I need to get the money from somewhere.
The choices wouldn’t be the same, but they’d be worse, CP, because people were generating less return on investment, because one of their options was removed.
This is especially bad if you’re primarily concerned about employment in a first world nation, say America, (I’d talk about Greece, but I just have no idea.) where porn is actually one of the home grown industries, and that money would end up going to China or India as a likely second best investment. Which would normally be cool; the Chinese have to eat too. But you’re also supporting a government that keeps the wages down and standards cheap through methods you might not be entirely kosher with.
This doesn’t have that much to do with porn per se, only to point out that you aren’t necessarily supporting a less cruel industry, by removing a single industry that you find “objectifying”.
I still say if you find your job objectifying, quit or demand more money for the inconvenience. If you can’t do either, then the job is improving your life, or you are a slave. No one seems to attack the main point; they just don’t like hearing it.
The how any why of porn suggests that the mainstream entertainment industry probably isn’t where that money would go e.g. probably towards prostitution which is even less humane. And doesn’t pay as well.
Well, the people who want to magically stop porn also tend to want to magically stop prostitution.
I, personally, would be in favor of the existence of both, but I’d also wish much higher working conditions for both—a wish which your command to “Deal!” in regards to their low working conditions, because they’re supposedly better than the “alternative” of their non-existence doesn’t quite adequately represent.
If you think people who invest in porn are dumb and the second best return on investment would generate better returns, then OK. But I tend to assume every one is an (imperfect) rational actor
And hence all the people buying lottery tickets? All the alcoholics buying booze? All the drug-addicts doing drugs? All the people going to church?
What’s the actual difference between “dumb” and “imperfect” besides the former being a ruder word than the latter?
The choices wouldn’t be the same, but they’d be worse, CP, because people were generating less return on investment, because one of their options was removed.
That again may sound reasonable, but it isn’t a logical necessity. It isn’t a logical necessity that having more options causes greater profit, unless people are indeed perfect rational agents, with perfect knowledge of the consequences of each choice, including psychological/social/etc.
I respect libertarianism because I do mistrust the government to make these choices for us—but that doesn’t mean by far that its application necessitates greater utility for all in every single scenario.
I, personally, would be in favor of the existence of both, but I’d also wish much higher working conditions for both—a wish which your command to “Deal!” in regards to their low working conditions, because they’re supposedly better than the “alternative” of their non-existence doesn’t quite adequately represent.
I personally would like better working conditions for everyone. I live in the real world. They chose the work. Given real world economic realities, I’m not sure I see the problem. An actress can work less, choose different films, pick another career. These all come at cost, because that’s the real world. Every actor who isn’t a slave made their decision. Who am I to question it?
What’s the actual difference between “dumb” and “imperfect” besides the former being a ruder word than the latter?
I tend to think people generate utility from all those things and don’t really see the problem. I’m an athiest, but know both Christians and, I hesitate to say Athiest, but people who don’t really believe in a personal god as such, who go to church like functions for the utility they recieve from them. Same goes for lottery tickets, booze, and drugs.
I tend to think in terms of imperfect = less than perfect mathematically described agent, dumb = less than me, at least in this particular domain. That last one is probably not great. I apologize for any confusion.
That again may sound reasonable, but it isn’t a logical necessity. It isn’t a logical necessity that having more options causes greater profit, unless people are indeed perfect rational agents, with perfect knowledge of the consequences of each choice, including psychological/social/etc.
I’m not sure I said that, though I do think there enough smart people gaming the system where that works out, albeit with a certain amount of inefficiency. How much inefficiency? No idea. The common libertarian arguement is usually not that libertarianism is perfect. But it’s better than the alternatives as they currently exist.
I personally would like better working conditions for everyone. I live in the real world.
But you would also like everyone to not complain about the working conditions they currently have? Ending people’s complaints requires an even more magical solution than ending porn or prostitution.
Why don’t you say to yourself “People complain. Deal.”
They chose the work. Given real world economic realities, I’m not sure I see the problem.
Reality includes the fact that people are free to argue about whether reality sucks and how to improve it. So what’s your problem? Why are you so okay with every “real” aspect of the labour market, except the fact that in the real world people can also complain about the labour market?
The whole subthread started with you saying “Deal.” While others still discussed the “is” of the matter, you leaped to an unsupported “ought”. Whether from a consequentialist or a deontologist perspective, you demanded a particular course of action which you don’t remotely prove by saying “this is the labour market” nor even by “they chose it”—both “is” statements which can’t by themselves build an “ought”.
I didn’t mean literally don’t complain ever, that’s silly and I never said that. There is a certain extent to which I think that if you have immediate control over something you should just shut up and do, but that wasn’t what I meant either.
All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness. That’s what I meant. Is this really what this whole conversation has been about?
All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness. That’s what I meant. Is this really what this whole conversation has been about?
Yes. If you had said “All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness.” this would allow people to respond e.g. why they might consider porn a worse form of objectification, or e.g. agree with you and nonetheless continue discussing what a society might do with alleviating the problems of objectification in employment in general.
Saying on the other hand “It’s the labour market. Deal.” is nothing but a rude conversation-stopper, which attempts to stifle discussion without actually making any coherent argument one could respond to. It fell so much beneath the standards of a LessWrong discussion that it wasn’t even funny.
It fell so much beneath the standards of a LessWrong discussion that it wasn’t even funny.
I totally agree with your stated point, and you made the point well. But the function of the quoted sentence is winning a status contest, not advancing your argument. The post would be vastly stronger without it.
Why is “nothing” the alternative to compare a given job to?
When people complain about a job, they generally don’t say “I wish I was unemployed”, they say things like “I wish I was paid more” or “I wish I wasn’t forced to work as many hours for fear of losing my job” or “I wish I had better working conditions”.
To compare any job to unemployment seems to be missing the point of such complaints. It’s not that the people would prefer unemployment. They’d prefer a better job.
I’m comparing the job to the job not existing. Not to no job at all for an individual. We’d all prefer a better job for ourselves, and if we aren’t jerks, we’d prefer better jobs for others too. Until the robots replace all the shitty jobs and all forms of scarcity vanish I don’t see the point.
There are so many jobs on the labor market. If you have a job, then you must at least think it is better than the alternatives. How is this controversial?
Here’s the discrepancy:
At this point, you’re comparing two different versions of society, a society (A) where the job exists and a society (B) where the job doesn’t exist.
But at this point, you’re comparing two different choices for an individual within the same society (A), choosing to have the particular job (choice A1) or quitting (choice A2).
Those are two different questions. E.g. imagine that the porn industry didn’t exist at all, for some magic reason. Wouldn’t the customer money financing it go to some other form of entertainment or product? What makes you think that the additional jobs that industry would create wouldn’t have less shitty working conditions than the porn industry?
The question of whether the existence of porn industry is positive or negative as a whole, therefore isn’t the same to whether any given individual in it should quit or not. The choices person has in timeline B aren’t necessarily the same they have in timeline A2.
Yes.
Yes.
Because there is only so much demand for goods, and only so much investment. The how any why of porn suggests that the mainstream entertainment industry probably isn’t where that money would go e.g. probably towards prostitution which is even less humane. And doesn’t pay as well.
More importantly, the reason people invest in porn is because they think that would be the best return on their dollar. The drive on investment is of course demand, utility represented by dollars in the economy. A redirection of that would have to be to the perceived second and third best percieved investment. If you think people who invest in porn are dumb and the percieved second best investmentwould generate better returns, then OK. But I tend to assume every one is an (imperfect) rational actor, who’s trying to generate the best return on investment, so changing that would be a bad Thing (TM).
If you don’t know why good returns on investment are good, realize that if I want to send all my money to AMF, I need to get it from somewhere. If you want a job from me, I need to get the money from somewhere.
The choices wouldn’t be the same, but they’d be worse, CP, because people were generating less return on investment, because one of their options was removed.
This is especially bad if you’re primarily concerned about employment in a first world nation, say America, (I’d talk about Greece, but I just have no idea.) where porn is actually one of the home grown industries, and that money would end up going to China or India as a likely second best investment. Which would normally be cool; the Chinese have to eat too. But you’re also supporting a government that keeps the wages down and standards cheap through methods you might not be entirely kosher with.
This doesn’t have that much to do with porn per se, only to point out that you aren’t necessarily supporting a less cruel industry, by removing a single industry that you find “objectifying”.
I still say if you find your job objectifying, quit or demand more money for the inconvenience. If you can’t do either, then the job is improving your life, or you are a slave. No one seems to attack the main point; they just don’t like hearing it.
Well, the people who want to magically stop porn also tend to want to magically stop prostitution.
I, personally, would be in favor of the existence of both, but I’d also wish much higher working conditions for both—a wish which your command to “Deal!” in regards to their low working conditions, because they’re supposedly better than the “alternative” of their non-existence doesn’t quite adequately represent.
And hence all the people buying lottery tickets? All the alcoholics buying booze? All the drug-addicts doing drugs? All the people going to church?
What’s the actual difference between “dumb” and “imperfect” besides the former being a ruder word than the latter?
That again may sound reasonable, but it isn’t a logical necessity. It isn’t a logical necessity that having more options causes greater profit, unless people are indeed perfect rational agents, with perfect knowledge of the consequences of each choice, including psychological/social/etc.
I respect libertarianism because I do mistrust the government to make these choices for us—but that doesn’t mean by far that its application necessitates greater utility for all in every single scenario.
I personally would like better working conditions for everyone. I live in the real world. They chose the work. Given real world economic realities, I’m not sure I see the problem. An actress can work less, choose different films, pick another career. These all come at cost, because that’s the real world. Every actor who isn’t a slave made their decision. Who am I to question it?
I tend to think people generate utility from all those things and don’t really see the problem. I’m an athiest, but know both Christians and, I hesitate to say Athiest, but people who don’t really believe in a personal god as such, who go to church like functions for the utility they recieve from them. Same goes for lottery tickets, booze, and drugs.
I tend to think in terms of imperfect = less than perfect mathematically described agent, dumb = less than me, at least in this particular domain. That last one is probably not great. I apologize for any confusion.
I’m not sure I said that, though I do think there enough smart people gaming the system where that works out, albeit with a certain amount of inefficiency. How much inefficiency? No idea. The common libertarian arguement is usually not that libertarianism is perfect. But it’s better than the alternatives as they currently exist.
But you would also like everyone to not complain about the working conditions they currently have? Ending people’s complaints requires an even more magical solution than ending porn or prostitution.
Why don’t you say to yourself “People complain. Deal.”
Reality includes the fact that people are free to argue about whether reality sucks and how to improve it. So what’s your problem? Why are you so okay with every “real” aspect of the labour market, except the fact that in the real world people can also complain about the labour market?
The whole subthread started with you saying “Deal.” While others still discussed the “is” of the matter, you leaped to an unsupported “ought”. Whether from a consequentialist or a deontologist perspective, you demanded a particular course of action which you don’t remotely prove by saying “this is the labour market” nor even by “they chose it”—both “is” statements which can’t by themselves build an “ought”.
I didn’t mean literally don’t complain ever, that’s silly and I never said that. There is a certain extent to which I think that if you have immediate control over something you should just shut up and do, but that wasn’t what I meant either.
All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness. That’s what I meant. Is this really what this whole conversation has been about?
Yes. If you had said “All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness.” this would allow people to respond e.g. why they might consider porn a worse form of objectification, or e.g. agree with you and nonetheless continue discussing what a society might do with alleviating the problems of objectification in employment in general.
Saying on the other hand “It’s the labour market. Deal.” is nothing but a rude conversation-stopper, which attempts to stifle discussion without actually making any coherent argument one could respond to. It fell so much beneath the standards of a LessWrong discussion that it wasn’t even funny.
In the spirit of constructive criticism:
I totally agree with your stated point, and you made the point well. But the function of the quoted sentence is winning a status contest, not advancing your argument. The post would be vastly stronger without it.
I thought the point was clear. Apparently, I was wrong.
If you found it was rude, it’s because I found the point silly, obvious, and really not worth the time. And here I find shortcuts make long delays.
Porn workers are objectified in a way library workers aren’t.