The how any why of porn suggests that the mainstream entertainment industry probably isn’t where that money would go e.g. probably towards prostitution which is even less humane. And doesn’t pay as well.
Well, the people who want to magically stop porn also tend to want to magically stop prostitution.
I, personally, would be in favor of the existence of both, but I’d also wish much higher working conditions for both—a wish which your command to “Deal!” in regards to their low working conditions, because they’re supposedly better than the “alternative” of their non-existence doesn’t quite adequately represent.
If you think people who invest in porn are dumb and the second best return on investment would generate better returns, then OK. But I tend to assume every one is an (imperfect) rational actor
And hence all the people buying lottery tickets? All the alcoholics buying booze? All the drug-addicts doing drugs? All the people going to church?
What’s the actual difference between “dumb” and “imperfect” besides the former being a ruder word than the latter?
The choices wouldn’t be the same, but they’d be worse, CP, because people were generating less return on investment, because one of their options was removed.
That again may sound reasonable, but it isn’t a logical necessity. It isn’t a logical necessity that having more options causes greater profit, unless people are indeed perfect rational agents, with perfect knowledge of the consequences of each choice, including psychological/social/etc.
I respect libertarianism because I do mistrust the government to make these choices for us—but that doesn’t mean by far that its application necessitates greater utility for all in every single scenario.
I, personally, would be in favor of the existence of both, but I’d also wish much higher working conditions for both—a wish which your command to “Deal!” in regards to their low working conditions, because they’re supposedly better than the “alternative” of their non-existence doesn’t quite adequately represent.
I personally would like better working conditions for everyone. I live in the real world. They chose the work. Given real world economic realities, I’m not sure I see the problem. An actress can work less, choose different films, pick another career. These all come at cost, because that’s the real world. Every actor who isn’t a slave made their decision. Who am I to question it?
What’s the actual difference between “dumb” and “imperfect” besides the former being a ruder word than the latter?
I tend to think people generate utility from all those things and don’t really see the problem. I’m an athiest, but know both Christians and, I hesitate to say Athiest, but people who don’t really believe in a personal god as such, who go to church like functions for the utility they recieve from them. Same goes for lottery tickets, booze, and drugs.
I tend to think in terms of imperfect = less than perfect mathematically described agent, dumb = less than me, at least in this particular domain. That last one is probably not great. I apologize for any confusion.
That again may sound reasonable, but it isn’t a logical necessity. It isn’t a logical necessity that having more options causes greater profit, unless people are indeed perfect rational agents, with perfect knowledge of the consequences of each choice, including psychological/social/etc.
I’m not sure I said that, though I do think there enough smart people gaming the system where that works out, albeit with a certain amount of inefficiency. How much inefficiency? No idea. The common libertarian arguement is usually not that libertarianism is perfect. But it’s better than the alternatives as they currently exist.
I personally would like better working conditions for everyone. I live in the real world.
But you would also like everyone to not complain about the working conditions they currently have? Ending people’s complaints requires an even more magical solution than ending porn or prostitution.
Why don’t you say to yourself “People complain. Deal.”
They chose the work. Given real world economic realities, I’m not sure I see the problem.
Reality includes the fact that people are free to argue about whether reality sucks and how to improve it. So what’s your problem? Why are you so okay with every “real” aspect of the labour market, except the fact that in the real world people can also complain about the labour market?
The whole subthread started with you saying “Deal.” While others still discussed the “is” of the matter, you leaped to an unsupported “ought”. Whether from a consequentialist or a deontologist perspective, you demanded a particular course of action which you don’t remotely prove by saying “this is the labour market” nor even by “they chose it”—both “is” statements which can’t by themselves build an “ought”.
I didn’t mean literally don’t complain ever, that’s silly and I never said that. There is a certain extent to which I think that if you have immediate control over something you should just shut up and do, but that wasn’t what I meant either.
All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness. That’s what I meant. Is this really what this whole conversation has been about?
All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness. That’s what I meant. Is this really what this whole conversation has been about?
Yes. If you had said “All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness.” this would allow people to respond e.g. why they might consider porn a worse form of objectification, or e.g. agree with you and nonetheless continue discussing what a society might do with alleviating the problems of objectification in employment in general.
Saying on the other hand “It’s the labour market. Deal.” is nothing but a rude conversation-stopper, which attempts to stifle discussion without actually making any coherent argument one could respond to. It fell so much beneath the standards of a LessWrong discussion that it wasn’t even funny.
It fell so much beneath the standards of a LessWrong discussion that it wasn’t even funny.
I totally agree with your stated point, and you made the point well. But the function of the quoted sentence is winning a status contest, not advancing your argument. The post would be vastly stronger without it.
Well, the people who want to magically stop porn also tend to want to magically stop prostitution.
I, personally, would be in favor of the existence of both, but I’d also wish much higher working conditions for both—a wish which your command to “Deal!” in regards to their low working conditions, because they’re supposedly better than the “alternative” of their non-existence doesn’t quite adequately represent.
And hence all the people buying lottery tickets? All the alcoholics buying booze? All the drug-addicts doing drugs? All the people going to church?
What’s the actual difference between “dumb” and “imperfect” besides the former being a ruder word than the latter?
That again may sound reasonable, but it isn’t a logical necessity. It isn’t a logical necessity that having more options causes greater profit, unless people are indeed perfect rational agents, with perfect knowledge of the consequences of each choice, including psychological/social/etc.
I respect libertarianism because I do mistrust the government to make these choices for us—but that doesn’t mean by far that its application necessitates greater utility for all in every single scenario.
I personally would like better working conditions for everyone. I live in the real world. They chose the work. Given real world economic realities, I’m not sure I see the problem. An actress can work less, choose different films, pick another career. These all come at cost, because that’s the real world. Every actor who isn’t a slave made their decision. Who am I to question it?
I tend to think people generate utility from all those things and don’t really see the problem. I’m an athiest, but know both Christians and, I hesitate to say Athiest, but people who don’t really believe in a personal god as such, who go to church like functions for the utility they recieve from them. Same goes for lottery tickets, booze, and drugs.
I tend to think in terms of imperfect = less than perfect mathematically described agent, dumb = less than me, at least in this particular domain. That last one is probably not great. I apologize for any confusion.
I’m not sure I said that, though I do think there enough smart people gaming the system where that works out, albeit with a certain amount of inefficiency. How much inefficiency? No idea. The common libertarian arguement is usually not that libertarianism is perfect. But it’s better than the alternatives as they currently exist.
But you would also like everyone to not complain about the working conditions they currently have? Ending people’s complaints requires an even more magical solution than ending porn or prostitution.
Why don’t you say to yourself “People complain. Deal.”
Reality includes the fact that people are free to argue about whether reality sucks and how to improve it. So what’s your problem? Why are you so okay with every “real” aspect of the labour market, except the fact that in the real world people can also complain about the labour market?
The whole subthread started with you saying “Deal.” While others still discussed the “is” of the matter, you leaped to an unsupported “ought”. Whether from a consequentialist or a deontologist perspective, you demanded a particular course of action which you don’t remotely prove by saying “this is the labour market” nor even by “they chose it”—both “is” statements which can’t by themselves build an “ought”.
I didn’t mean literally don’t complain ever, that’s silly and I never said that. There is a certain extent to which I think that if you have immediate control over something you should just shut up and do, but that wasn’t what I meant either.
All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness. That’s what I meant. Is this really what this whole conversation has been about?
Yes. If you had said “All employment is comodification of human time, and therefore objectification of human beings. Part of living in the real world is making peace with that. The fact that people want to single out porn is silliness.” this would allow people to respond e.g. why they might consider porn a worse form of objectification, or e.g. agree with you and nonetheless continue discussing what a society might do with alleviating the problems of objectification in employment in general.
Saying on the other hand “It’s the labour market. Deal.” is nothing but a rude conversation-stopper, which attempts to stifle discussion without actually making any coherent argument one could respond to. It fell so much beneath the standards of a LessWrong discussion that it wasn’t even funny.
In the spirit of constructive criticism:
I totally agree with your stated point, and you made the point well. But the function of the quoted sentence is winning a status contest, not advancing your argument. The post would be vastly stronger without it.
I thought the point was clear. Apparently, I was wrong.
If you found it was rude, it’s because I found the point silly, obvious, and really not worth the time. And here I find shortcuts make long delays.
Porn workers are objectified in a way library workers aren’t.