I think the way LW talks about diet and weight loss is among the most irrational I’ve seen. It’s not nearly as complicated as it’s made out to be here.
A while ago I was speaking at a conference for people who were professionals at the subject of teaching people to lose weight. They generally also considered the topic to be complicated.
Seeing the topic as being complicated is not a contrarian LW opinion but the opinion of the relevant professional field.
I, for instance, have very low will power.
That has little to do with anything given that the amount of will power isn’t predictive of diet adherence. See Baumeisters book on will power.
These are pretty simple measures. And all they do is allow me to (1) eat less and (2) exercise more. People just don’t wanna.
We do you talk about that instead of talking about a more relevant metric of success such as a long-term reduction in BMI? (Or another metric for being overweight)
Your example is just a play on the word “exercise”. Shopping is exercise. Walking, moving.
So you are saying that going shopping would fall under your 5x times exercise per weak?
It very likely isn’t.
If you look in the dictionary exercise is defined as: : physical activity that is done in order to become stronger and healthier : a particular movement or series of movements done to become stronger and healthier
Shopping is not done to become stronger and healthier but is done for another end. Therefore it’s not exercise.
Even if you don’t look at the purpose of the activity, when you define any moving as exercise everybody exercises 24⁄7. That’s very far from what most people mean with the term.
Seeing the topic as being complicated is not a contrarian LW opinion but the opinion of the relevant professional field.
It is as complicated as someone would like to make it. Just like anything else. But that’s not helping people lose weight, IMO. That’s my point. Instrumental rationality suffers when we get too far away from the simple facts.
And it depends on your definition of “complicated”…
That has little to do with anything given that the amount of will power isn’t predictive of diet adherence. See Baumeisters book on will power.
Perhaps you can point me to something more specific from the book?
My point is that I have experienced positive results not through moderation, but through abstinence from certain foods, and pre-commitment (if you will) to exercise. I try to eliminate will from the equation as much as possible.
We do you talk about that instead of talking about a more relevant metric of success such as a long-term reduction in BMI? (Or another metric for being overweight)
I don’t know what you mean. I think you misunderstood me.
On exercise/shopping: It’s just semantics. Define either however you’d like. For my purposes, I define exercise similar to your dictionary, but I also have lots of hacks I incorporate into other regular activities to burn calories: always take the stairs, park in the back row of the lot, walk around the building every hour while I mentally plan my next hour of work, walk my dog everyday, etc.
The point is to create a calorie deficit. Consuming less and burning more. Create a calorie deficit and you’ll lose weight 100% of the time. Not easy, but simple. It doesn’t matter if that is through “Exercise” according to some formal definition.
But that’s not helping people lose weight, IMO. That’s my point. Instrumental rationality suffers when we get too far away from the simple facts.
Discussion on LW about the problem of obesity aren’t just about instrumental rationality, they are also about epistemic rationality.
The discussion about Eliezer’s weight is one where the goal is having true beliefs.
My point is that I have experienced positive results not through moderation [...] I don’t know what you mean. I think you misunderstood me.
If you claim you achieve positive results that means you actually lost weight, reducing your body-fat or reducing your weight circumference.
If you achieved neither of those results, I don’t think there a basis for you claiming positive results at weight loss.
It doesn’t matter if that is through “Exercise” according to some formal definition.
It’s not a formal definition but the standard definition. The definition that you also use when you speak about exercising 5 times per weak. You are playing bailey-and-moat when you use different definitions and switch them up to win arguments.
For a person deciding whether or not to exercise, the effects of the decision to exercise matter a great deal. For people who burn less calories in days where they exercise and who want to lose weight that’s very valuable information. That’s the thing that matters if you care about instrumental rationality.
Discussion on LW about the problem of obesity aren’t just about instrumental rationality, they are also about epistemic rationality. The discussion about Eliezer’s weight is one where the goal is having true beliefs.
I agree. I think it’s useful to know why the diets that work are working. From my recall, discussions about low-carb diets, here and elsewhere, are particularly dumb.
If you claim you achieve positive results that means you actually lost weight, reducing your body-fat or reducing your weight circumference. If you achieved neither of those results, I don’t think there a basis for you claiming positive results at weight loss.
I’ve achieved both. Predictably. Mine is just one anecdotal case. It doesn’t mean much.
I’ve talked to enough people and seen plenty of results to feel confident enough to speak on the issue though.
Nutrition, by the way, is actually a complicated matter. It should be separated from simple weight loss in this discussion.
It’s not a formal definition but the standard definition. The definition that you also use when you speak about exercising 5 times per weak. You are playing bailey-and-moat when you use different definitions and switch them up to win arguments.
Have you actually made explicit predictions about individual cases?
Yes. I plan on beginning a diet and exercise program on Jan 1. If I stick to the diet and workout schedule, then I will lose weight (and gain strength) according to a predictable schedule.
Basketball does happen to do more than just burning calories. It’s social. It also trains coordiantion.
Yes. I plan on beginning a diet and exercise program on Jan 1. If I stick to the diet and workout schedule, then I will lose weight (and gain strength) according to a predictable schedule.
Basically I understand from that, that your past efforts didn’t bring you to the weight you like to have. That’s similar to Eliezer who lost weight by doing the Shangri La diet but who is still overweight.
How about making an explicit prediction about your weight/body-fat/BMI or waist circumference in a year and putting that prediction on predictionbook? Maybe relative changes if you don’t like to be public about the actual number.
Okay. And?
You have other active ingridents besides calories being burned in sport.
Basically I understand from that, that your past efforts didn’t bring you to the weight you like to have. That’s similar to Eliezer who lost weight by doing the Shangri La diet but who is still overweight.
No. I chose to lose weight after an injury made it impossible for me to powerlift. I’ve fluctuated some depending on fitness goals. Now I want to lose weight and perhaps try some endurance-based competitions. I typically go on 4-12 week strict plans where I use weight as one metric… but I’m not terribly concerned about my weight, focusing instead on overall fitness levels.
I have gained fat in the past due to general apathy, though. I lost it predictably when I paid attention to diet and exercise.
How about making an explicit prediction about your weight/body-fat/BMI or waist circumference in a year and putting that prediction on predictionbook? Maybe relative changes if you don’t like to be public about the actual number.
I’ve used Stickk in the past. It works well and often helps me overachieve.
You have other active ingridents besides calories being burned in sport.
We’re just missing each other on this point.
None of that matters. You just need a way to burn calories. Doesn’t have to be exercise according to any definition.
Willpower (or more preceisely ability of self-control) did nothing to help people stick to diets. That’s compatible with the model that the central variable that matter by an approach to dieting is shifting the bodies setpoint.
There was a study that was published in 2009, which focused on food and self-control. This study, revealed that self-control didn’t have much of an effect one way or another on whether or not the volunteers were able to constrain themselves from eating the presented food (in this case, chips)
What does this mean?
If I am presented with food, what shall I call the mechanism that allows me to constrain myself from eating?
Are there factors (outside stress, lack of sleep, etc.) that may cause by ability to constrain myself to diminish?
If I have a rule for myself, backed by a commitment contract, that I will not eat chips, will this increase the likelihood I do not partake when presented with an opportunity?
That’s compatible with the model that the central variable that matter by an approach to dieting is shifting the bodies setpoint.
Elaborate on this, please.
I don’t know enough on the issue to say, but I think I’m advocating something similar to this practically. Dieting is difficult, but gets easier after some time. The body seems to get used to less food. My sense is that a new equilibrium is reached, where less food will suffice for regular functioning without hunger.
The body regulates the pulse of the heart. Humans generally can’t raise or lower their pulse by trying to raise or lower their pulse.
I think the same is true with regards to the setpoint for weight.
There are a variety of psychological effects but they are not about trying.
What does this mean?
The answer refers to plenty of additonal resources that explain it in more depth.
If I have a rule for myself, backed by a commitment contract, that I will not eat chips, will this increase the likelihood I do not partake when presented with an opportunity?
Depending on the context a rule like that can increases or decrease the likelihood. The mental act of commiting can reduce the likelihood that you partake in the opportunity. On the other hand thinking about the fact that you have a rule that you shouldn’t eat chips might direct cognitive resources to the idea of eating chips and make it more likely.
Dieting is difficult, but gets easier after some time. The body seems to get used to less food. My sense is that a new equilibrium is reached, where less food will suffice for regular functioning without hunger.
I don’t have reason to believe that’s true in general. To quote a review: The authors review studies of the long-term outcomes of calorie-restricting diets to assess whether dieting is an effective treatment for obesity. These studies show that one third to two thirds of dieters regain more weight than they lost on their diets, and these studies likely underestimate the extent to which dieting is counterproductive because of several methodological problems, all of which bias the studies toward showing successful weight loss maintenance. In addition, the studies do not provide consistent evidence that dieting results in significant health improvements, regardless of weight change. In sum, there is little support for the notion that diets lead to lasting weight loss or health benefits.
The body regulates the pulse of the heart. Humans generally can’t raise or lower their pulse by trying to raise or lower their pulse. I think the same is true with regards to the setpoint for weight.
So, what happens when someone loses 100 pounds and keeps it off for a lifetime? What happened when a 200 lb person becomes 100 lbs? How have they defied the setpoint?
I don’t have reason to believe that’s true in general.
“In sum, there is little support for the notion that diets lead to lasting weight loss or health benefits.”
Proper diet is a discipline, like any other discipline. Of course proper diet will contribute to health benefits, one of which is a healthy body weight. The benefits continue as long as the discipline continues. Like anything else.
What is the alternative? Eat whatever you please because the body has a setpoint that will be achieved regardless?
“These studies show that one third to two thirds of dieters regain more weight than they lost on their diets”
Somewhere between 33% and 67%? So, somewhere between most people succeed at dieting and most people fail. And this is evidence?
**
I’m curious, what do you suggest for a general ELI5 weight loss plan? If someone weighs 200 lbs and decides they want to reduce their BMI to within a healthy range and get down to 150 lbs, how shall they proceed?
So, what happens when someone loses 100 pounds and keeps it off for a lifetime? What happened when a 200 lb person becomes 100 lbs? How have they defied the setpoint?
They did something that changed the setpoint.
Somewhere between 33% and 67%? So, somewhere between most people succeed at dieting and most people fail.
If you define success at dieting at not increasing your weight, I think you have different standards than most people.
I’m curious, what do you suggest for a general ELI5 weight loss plan? If someone weighs 200 lbs and decides they want to reduce their BMI to within a healthy range and get down to 150 lbs, how shall they proceed?
I don’t have the data to proof that a certain recommendation is the best, but ideas I consider to be promising are:
1) Check whether something like a virus produces unnecessary inflamation and fight the virus if there’s one.
2) Shangri La diet.
3) Hackers diet style charting.
4) Work through the surrounding psycholoigcal issues with a good hypnotherist or otherwise skilled person.
I don’t think the tricks from 2 to 4 are enough when the core reason is an illness that produces inflamation. Different people are likely overweight for different reasons and there won’t be a one-size-fits-all solution.
If you define success at dieting at not increasing your weight, I think you have different standards than most people.
Part of a healthy diet is managing calories in such a way that you remain at a healthy weight. It may be useful to create a calorie deficit for a limited time.
I’d guess many people likely fail at keeping a disciplined diet for a long time because it is hard to keep up discipline at anything for a long time. And our culture/lifestyle isn’t terribly conducive to staying lean.
Part of a healthy diet is managing calories in such a way that you remain at a healthy weight. It may be useful to create a calorie deficit for a limited time.
Then you are inconsitstent with what you called success above, where you call any small reduction or zero change in weight a success of dieting.
A while ago I was speaking at a conference for people who were professionals at the subject of teaching people to lose weight. They generally also considered the topic to be complicated. Seeing the topic as being complicated is not a contrarian LW opinion but the opinion of the relevant professional field.
That has little to do with anything given that the amount of will power isn’t predictive of diet adherence. See Baumeisters book on will power.
We do you talk about that instead of talking about a more relevant metric of success such as a long-term reduction in BMI? (Or another metric for being overweight)
So you are saying that going shopping would fall under your 5x times exercise per weak? It very likely isn’t.
If you look in the dictionary
exerciseis defined as:: physical activity that is done in order to become stronger and healthier: a particular movement or series of movements done to become stronger and healthierShopping is not done to become stronger and healthier but is done for another end. Therefore it’s not exercise.
Even if you don’t look at the purpose of the activity, when you define any moving as exercise everybody exercises 24⁄7. That’s very far from what most people mean with the term.
It is as complicated as someone would like to make it. Just like anything else. But that’s not helping people lose weight, IMO. That’s my point. Instrumental rationality suffers when we get too far away from the simple facts.
And it depends on your definition of “complicated”…
Perhaps you can point me to something more specific from the book?
My point is that I have experienced positive results not through moderation, but through abstinence from certain foods, and pre-commitment (if you will) to exercise. I try to eliminate will from the equation as much as possible.
I don’t know what you mean. I think you misunderstood me.
On exercise/shopping: It’s just semantics. Define either however you’d like. For my purposes, I define exercise similar to your dictionary, but I also have lots of hacks I incorporate into other regular activities to burn calories: always take the stairs, park in the back row of the lot, walk around the building every hour while I mentally plan my next hour of work, walk my dog everyday, etc.
The point is to create a calorie deficit. Consuming less and burning more. Create a calorie deficit and you’ll lose weight 100% of the time. Not easy, but simple. It doesn’t matter if that is through “Exercise” according to some formal definition.
Discussion on LW about the problem of obesity aren’t just about instrumental rationality, they are also about epistemic rationality. The discussion about Eliezer’s weight is one where the goal is having true beliefs.
If you claim you achieve positive results that means you actually lost weight, reducing your body-fat or reducing your weight circumference. If you achieved neither of those results, I don’t think there a basis for you claiming positive results at weight loss.
It’s not a formal definition but the standard definition. The definition that you also use when you speak about exercising 5 times per weak. You are playing bailey-and-moat when you use different definitions and switch them up to win arguments.
For a person deciding whether or not to exercise, the effects of the decision to exercise matter a great deal. For people who burn less calories in days where they exercise and who want to lose weight that’s very valuable information. That’s the thing that matters if you care about instrumental rationality.
I agree. I think it’s useful to know why the diets that work are working. From my recall, discussions about low-carb diets, here and elsewhere, are particularly dumb.
I’ve achieved both. Predictably. Mine is just one anecdotal case. It doesn’t mean much.
I’ve talked to enough people and seen plenty of results to feel confident enough to speak on the issue though.
Nutrition, by the way, is actually a complicated matter. It should be separated from simple weight loss in this discussion.
You’re missing the point. You can Exercise© ZERO and lose weight, where exercise involves your standard definition. It doesn’t matter.
I find it useful to set aside Exercise© time because (1) I enjoy it and (2) it helps me form a mental habit.
In regard to the woman who finds it useful to shop, but not Exercise©, I get it. I don’t Run©, but I play basketball. I do this for a similar reason as she stated. I get tired and sore and bored and experience a low mood when I run. I’m happy and “competitively fulfilled” after playing basketball. Time flies and I am able to stay active for much longer.
The outcome is the same: Calories burned. More when I play basketball, since I tend to do it for longer.
Have you actually made explicit predictions about individual cases?
Basketball does happen to do more than just burning calories. It’s social. It also trains coordiantion.
Yes. I plan on beginning a diet and exercise program on Jan 1. If I stick to the diet and workout schedule, then I will lose weight (and gain strength) according to a predictable schedule.
Okay. And?
Basically I understand from that, that your past efforts didn’t bring you to the weight you like to have. That’s similar to Eliezer who lost weight by doing the Shangri La diet but who is still overweight.
How about making an explicit prediction about your weight/body-fat/BMI or waist circumference in a year and putting that prediction on predictionbook? Maybe relative changes if you don’t like to be public about the actual number.
You have other active ingridents besides calories being burned in sport.
No. I chose to lose weight after an injury made it impossible for me to powerlift. I’ve fluctuated some depending on fitness goals. Now I want to lose weight and perhaps try some endurance-based competitions. I typically go on 4-12 week strict plans where I use weight as one metric… but I’m not terribly concerned about my weight, focusing instead on overall fitness levels.
I have gained fat in the past due to general apathy, though. I lost it predictably when I paid attention to diet and exercise.
I’ve used Stickk in the past. It works well and often helps me overachieve.
We’re just missing each other on this point.
None of that matters. You just need a way to burn calories. Doesn’t have to be exercise according to any definition.
I redirected the issue to the link of willpower producing dieting success to stackexchange.
Willpower (or more preceisely ability of self-control) did nothing to help people stick to diets. That’s compatible with the model that the central variable that matter by an approach to dieting is shifting the bodies setpoint.
What does this mean?
If I am presented with food, what shall I call the mechanism that allows me to constrain myself from eating?
Are there factors (outside stress, lack of sleep, etc.) that may cause by ability to constrain myself to diminish?
If I have a rule for myself, backed by a commitment contract, that I will not eat chips, will this increase the likelihood I do not partake when presented with an opportunity?
Elaborate on this, please.
I don’t know enough on the issue to say, but I think I’m advocating something similar to this practically. Dieting is difficult, but gets easier after some time. The body seems to get used to less food. My sense is that a new equilibrium is reached, where less food will suffice for regular functioning without hunger.
Is this what you mean?
The body regulates the pulse of the heart. Humans generally can’t raise or lower their pulse by trying to raise or lower their pulse. I think the same is true with regards to the setpoint for weight.
There are a variety of psychological effects but they are not about trying.
The answer refers to plenty of additonal resources that explain it in more depth.
Depending on the context a rule like that can increases or decrease the likelihood. The mental act of commiting can reduce the likelihood that you partake in the opportunity. On the other hand thinking about the fact that you have a rule that you shouldn’t eat chips might direct cognitive resources to the idea of eating chips and make it more likely.
I don’t have reason to believe that’s true in general. To quote a review:
The authors review studies of the long-term outcomes of calorie-restricting diets to assess whether dieting is an effective treatment for obesity. These studies show that one third to two thirds of dieters regain more weight than they lost on their diets, and these studies likely underestimate the extent to which dieting is counterproductive because of several methodological problems, all of which bias the studies toward showing successful weight loss maintenance. In addition, the studies do not provide consistent evidence that dieting results in significant health improvements, regardless of weight change. In sum, there is little support for the notion that diets lead to lasting weight loss or health benefits.So, what happens when someone loses 100 pounds and keeps it off for a lifetime? What happened when a 200 lb person becomes 100 lbs? How have they defied the setpoint?
Proper diet is a discipline, like any other discipline. Of course proper diet will contribute to health benefits, one of which is a healthy body weight. The benefits continue as long as the discipline continues. Like anything else.
What is the alternative? Eat whatever you please because the body has a setpoint that will be achieved regardless?
Somewhere between 33% and 67%? So, somewhere between most people succeed at dieting and most people fail. And this is evidence?
**
I’m curious, what do you suggest for a general ELI5 weight loss plan? If someone weighs 200 lbs and decides they want to reduce their BMI to within a healthy range and get down to 150 lbs, how shall they proceed?
They did something that changed the setpoint.
If you define success at dieting at not increasing your weight, I think you have different standards than most people.
I don’t have the data to proof that a certain recommendation is the best, but ideas I consider to be promising are: 1) Check whether something like a virus produces unnecessary inflamation and fight the virus if there’s one. 2) Shangri La diet. 3) Hackers diet style charting. 4) Work through the surrounding psycholoigcal issues with a good hypnotherist or otherwise skilled person.
I don’t think the tricks from 2 to 4 are enough when the core reason is an illness that produces inflamation. Different people are likely overweight for different reasons and there won’t be a one-size-fits-all solution.
Part of a healthy diet is managing calories in such a way that you remain at a healthy weight. It may be useful to create a calorie deficit for a limited time.
I’d guess many people likely fail at keeping a disciplined diet for a long time because it is hard to keep up discipline at anything for a long time. And our culture/lifestyle isn’t terribly conducive to staying lean.
Then you are inconsitstent with what you called success above, where you call any small reduction or zero change in weight a success of dieting.