I do like the framing of “playing to your outs” for various reasons. I’m not sure how I feel about which framing is better, but here are two thoughts.
Eliezer wanted to post this on April Fools Day. But if it’s an April Fools Day post, “playing to your outs” isn’t very April Fools-y, while “death with dignity” (sorta) is.
The Death With Dignity post feels to me like it spends a decent amount of time recommending against doing unethical stuff, ie. the talk about consequentialism and second-order effects. If that’s something Eliezer wanted to emphasize, “dignity” does seem like a good word. In your Q3 you question this premise that we need to have this conversation about unethical stuff in the first place. I don’t feel strongly here, but I lean away from this. I lean towards thinking that it’s important to note.
I think you’re right that dying with dignity is a better frame specifically for recommending against doing unethical stuff. I agree with everything he said about not doing unethical stuff, and tried to point to that (maybe if I have time I will add some more emphasis here).
But that being said, I feel a little frustrated that people think that caveats about not doing unethical stuff are expected in a post like this. It feels similar to if I was writing a post about standing up for yourself and had to add “stand up to bullies—but remember not to murder anyone”. Yes you should not murder bullies. But I wish to live in a world where we don’t have to caveat with that every time. I recognize that we might not live in such a world. Maybe if someone proposes “play to your outs”, people jump to violent plans without realizing how likely that is to be counterproductive to the goal. And this does seem to be somewhat true, though I’m not sure the extent of it. And I find this frustrating. That which is already true… of course, but I wish people would be a little better here.
Recently Eliezer has used the dying with dignity frame a lot outside his April 1st day post. So while some parts of that post may have been a joke, the dying with dignity part was not.
That makes sense. And thank you for emphasizing this.
I think both of our points stand. My point is about the title of this specific April Fools Day post. If it’s gonna be an April Fools Day post, “playing to your outs” isn’t very April Fools-y.
And your point stands I think as well, if I’m interpreting you correctly, that he’s chosen the messaging of “death with dignity” outside of the context of April Fools Day as well, in which case “it’s an April Fools Day post” isn’t part of the explanation.
But that being said, I feel a little frustrated that people think that caveats about not doing unethical stuff are expected in a post like this.
I hear ya for sure. I’m not sure what to think about how necessary it is either. The heuristic of “be more cynical about humans” comes to mind though, and I lean moderately strongly towards thinking it is a good idea.
I think the April fool’s day element is extremely neglected in this discussion. E was trying to be provocative, not putting forth an ironclad proposal.
I find it possible but pretty unlikely that he was trying to be provocative. Maybe he pushed things a little bit with the provocativeness, but I’d be quite surprised if it turned out to be more than “just a little bit”.
I’m thinking about what he wrote in the post about consequentialism. Being provocative is unvirtuous, in the sense that it is lying to/misleading people. Maybe that is ok because the ends justify the means? Possibly, but Eliezer warns quite strongly against that sort of reasoning. He also talks about how the reputation of the alignment community is pretty important. Being provocative hurts this reputation. And his own personal reputation, which is similarly important. Plus he just seems to have a very strong fondness for the truth, and not stretching it, probably moreso than anyone else I can think of.
I judge that he would be willing to go against these principles in theory, but it would have to be a pretty extreme and clear cut case, and we don’t seem to be in that ballpark here.
I do like the framing of “playing to your outs” for various reasons. I’m not sure how I feel about which framing is better, but here are two thoughts.
Eliezer wanted to post this on April Fools Day. But if it’s an April Fools Day post, “playing to your outs” isn’t very April Fools-y, while “death with dignity” (sorta) is.
The Death With Dignity post feels to me like it spends a decent amount of time recommending against doing unethical stuff, ie. the talk about consequentialism and second-order effects. If that’s something Eliezer wanted to emphasize, “dignity” does seem like a good word. In your Q3 you question this premise that we need to have this conversation about unethical stuff in the first place. I don’t feel strongly here, but I lean away from this. I lean towards thinking that it’s important to note.
Recently Eliezer has used the dying with dignity frame a lot outside his April 1st day post. So while some parts of that post may have been a joke, the dying with dignity part was not. For example: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11AY2jUu7X2wJj8cqdA_Ri78y2MU5LS0dT5QrhO2jhzQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
I think you’re right that dying with dignity is a better frame specifically for recommending against doing unethical stuff. I agree with everything he said about not doing unethical stuff, and tried to point to that (maybe if I have time I will add some more emphasis here).
But that being said, I feel a little frustrated that people think that caveats about not doing unethical stuff are expected in a post like this. It feels similar to if I was writing a post about standing up for yourself and had to add “stand up to bullies—but remember not to murder anyone”. Yes you should not murder bullies. But I wish to live in a world where we don’t have to caveat with that every time. I recognize that we might not live in such a world. Maybe if someone proposes “play to your outs”, people jump to violent plans without realizing how likely that is to be counterproductive to the goal. And this does seem to be somewhat true, though I’m not sure the extent of it. And I find this frustrating. That which is already true… of course, but I wish people would be a little better here.
That makes sense. And thank you for emphasizing this.
I think both of our points stand. My point is about the title of this specific April Fools Day post. If it’s gonna be an April Fools Day post, “playing to your outs” isn’t very April Fools-y.
And your point stands I think as well, if I’m interpreting you correctly, that he’s chosen the messaging of “death with dignity” outside of the context of April Fools Day as well, in which case “it’s an April Fools Day post” isn’t part of the explanation.
I hear ya for sure. I’m not sure what to think about how necessary it is either. The heuristic of “be more cynical about humans” comes to mind though, and I lean moderately strongly towards thinking it is a good idea.
Not clear to me. Why not?
I think the April fool’s day element is extremely neglected in this discussion. E was trying to be provocative, not putting forth an ironclad proposal.
Recently Eliezer has used the dying with dignity frame a lot outside his April 1st day post. So while some parts of that post may have been a joke, the dying with dignity part was not. For example: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11AY2jUu7X2wJj8cqdA_Ri78y2MU5LS0dT5QrhO2jhzQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
If you have specific examples where you think I took something too seriously that was meant to be a joke, I’d be curious to see those.
It seems this isn’t true, excepting only the title and the concluding question. FWIW this wasn’t at all obvious to me either.
Thanks for following up and clarifying!
I find it possible but pretty unlikely that he was trying to be provocative. Maybe he pushed things a little bit with the provocativeness, but I’d be quite surprised if it turned out to be more than “just a little bit”.
I’m thinking about what he wrote in the post about consequentialism. Being provocative is unvirtuous, in the sense that it is lying to/misleading people. Maybe that is ok because the ends justify the means? Possibly, but Eliezer warns quite strongly against that sort of reasoning. He also talks about how the reputation of the alignment community is pretty important. Being provocative hurts this reputation. And his own personal reputation, which is similarly important. Plus he just seems to have a very strong fondness for the truth, and not stretching it, probably moreso than anyone else I can think of.
I judge that he would be willing to go against these principles in theory, but it would have to be a pretty extreme and clear cut case, and we don’t seem to be in that ballpark here.