Like I already said a few times, nearly all the highly upvoted posts and comments that explicitly bring up ideology—like yours—appear to come from the right. Duh, you’ll say, if most of the LW stuff is implicitly liberal/progressive, then of course what’s going to stand out is (intelligently argued) contrarianism. But the disturbing thing to me is that the mainstream doesn’t seem to react to the challenge.
What I have in mind is not some isolated insightful comments e.g. criticizing moldbuggery, defending egalitarianism or feminism or something like that—they do appear—but an acknowledgement of LW’s underlying ideological non-neutrality. E.g. this post by Eliezer, or this one by Luke would’ve hardly been received well without the author and the audience sharing Enlightenment/Universalist values; both the tone and the message rely on an ideological foundation (one that I desire to analyze and add to—not deconstruct).
Yet there’s not enough acknowledgement and conscious defense of those values, so when such content is challenged from an alt-right perspective, the attacking side ends up with the last word in the discussion. So to me it feels, subjectively, as if an alien force is ripping whole chunks out of the comfortable “default” memeplex, and no-one on the “inside” is willing or able to counterattack!
The thing is right wing thinkers who end up on LessWrong and stay in the community should be comforting to you, these are the people who believe engaging in dialogue and common goals is possible. And I would argue they empower all members of the community by contributing to the explicit goal of refining human rationality or FAI design (though they might undermine some other implicit goals).
Compare this to the idea of right wing thinkers that take what they can from rationality and the alt right and then seeing they are not accepted in the nominally rationalist community leave for the world. Even as individuals that should concern you, but imagine a right wing community forming powered by the best tools from here. Somehow it seems its left wing only counterpart would be weaker.
The thing is right wing thinkers who end up on LessWrong and stay in the community should be comforting to you, these are the people who believe engaging in dialogue and common goals is possible… And I would argue they empower all members of the community by contributing to the explicit goal of refining human rationality
The question is, how much do they contribute to the “value-neutral” goals like epistemic rationality/practical knowledge/whatever, versus the disutility that I suffer by them succeeding at their values—and perhaps getting to influence the future disproportionately, if LW/SIAI achieve a lot and give leverage to all participants? Extreme right-wingers all seem to share the explicit values of institutionalized dominance, rigid hierarchy, rejection of universal ethics and the suppression of any threat to such an order.
For example, you’ve quoted Roissy around here before as a good instrumental rationalist and worthwhile writer—and, say, Hanson links to him, and Vladimir_M endorsed him—yet I think that he must’ve already caused enough misery with his blog and his personal actions, never mind whatever political impact his vile thoughts might have. I don’t think that our community should be willing to cooperate or communicate with thinkers like him. At all. And he’s small fish compared to the intellectual currents that might appear if the “Dark Enlightenment” grows some more. I have pondered where those ideas might lead, and it fills me with equal part horror and rage.
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If this movement indeed has potential for growth, I wish for a broad cordon against it, from academic liberals like Corey Robin to far-left writers like Matthew Lyons to LW-style progressive technocrats.
You are too quick in ascribing incompatible values to people you disagree with. That’s the cheap way out; it allows you to write off their opinion without considering the fact that they might have the same terminal values as you, and arrived at their instrumental position for rational, empirical reasons. Then you’d have to actually consider whether their position is correct, instead of just writing them off.
Extreme right-wingers all seem to share the explicit values of institutionalized dominance, rigid hierarchy, rejection of universal ethics and the suppression of any threat to such an order.
This is the straw-man version you get taught about by the Universalist establishment. Don’t take it seriously as what these folks are actually thinking. Some people are just dumb and evil, and most confuse “this is instrumentally a good idea” with “this is terminally a good idea” but there’s less of them than you are taught, and there actually are good reasons for the apparent craziness.
It is perfectly possible for someone to have the same values as you and consider (the non-straw) version of those things to be instrumentally a good idea.
I have pondered where those ideas might lead, and it fills me with equal part horror and rage.
I don’t know what you are thinking but I know that feel. I had that same feel just a few months ago. I used to look at authoritarians, racists, PUAs, and such and think. “what the fuck is wrong with these people? How could they be so wrong? Are they evil?” mostly I just felt that horror and rage though.
The truth has a certain ring to it. I first noticed that truthiness with LW; “wow, these guys get thinking right”, then a while later, with MMSL (married PUA) “Wow, this stuff is totally different from what we’re taught, but it works (on my wife)”. Then with do-ocracy, and authoritarianism “wow this just works so much better for meetup organizing”. Then with HBD, when I realized that I could build an acceptable line of retreat in the case that the racists were right on the factual questions.
And then, to quote moldbug: “for a wide variety of controversial issues, it would be very, very easy for any smart young person with a few hours to spare to see what the pattern of truth and error, and its inevitable political associations, started to look like.” That is, the “Dark Enlightenment” convinced me, a former hardcore anarchist.
So please, please consider that your enemies are not evil mutants. That people might reject democracy, and accept dark enlightenment ideas for actual good reasons, not just because they have magical “incompatible values”. Please, please consider that you may not have all the facts, and that you may end up changing your mind on some of these issues.
I wish for a broad cordon against it,
Please don’t. What if you’re wrong? How will you realize your error if you put in hard blocks against certain ideas?
In response to your concerns, I ask one very specific thing of you. Please go and re-read Three Worlds Collide. Right now.
Nitpicks:
That people might reject democracy
I reject it too. So?
convinced me, a former hardcore anarchist.
Anarchist more like Bakunin or Durruti, or more like Rand? If it’s the latter, then your statement is remarkably unsurprising. So much of this is just the logical development of right-wing libertarianism.
This is the straw-man version you get taught about by the Universalist establishment.
WTF are you talking about. Just above, I was complaining how the “Universalist establishment” is silent even on the existence of the alt-right. In particular, it’s pigeonholing all opposition as either Strawman Christian Fundamentalist, Strawman Arrogant Capitalist or Strawman Racist Hick. Corey Robin’s polite and respectful, diligently researched work, The Reactionary Mind, got savaged by the NYT. If the goddamn New York Times is not the Pravda of the mainstream “Universalist establishment”, I don’t know what “establishment” we’re talking about at all.
If it’s the latter, then your statement is remarkably unsurprising. So much of this is just the logical development of right-wing libertarianism.
One possible development of right-wing libertarianism. Specifically, what happens if you attempt to coherently extrapolate libertarian maxims, forgetting the original reason for stating them.
This is actually a common general failure mode, one starts with an ethical injunction and notices that it contains a term, X, that is vaguely defined. Rather than thinking about what definition of X would make the injunction make the most sense (which is admittedly dangerous with ethical injunctions) or treating the definition as a Schelling fence, one attempts to formulate a coherent definition of X that turns out to be very different from the one in use when the injunction was being formulated. In the extreme case one might conclude that X includes everything or nothing.
For example, libertarians believe that private parties should be free to do as they wish. Moldburgians extend the definition of private parties to include governments. (Edit: Disclaimer: I have read very little of Moldburg’s writings so this might not be an accurate description of his position.)
You’re own position, if I understand it correctly, suffers from a similar mistake. Specifically, you take the maxim “It is wrong to hold someone responsible for something that’s not his fault”, and narrow the definition of “fault” until nothing is ever anyone’s fault.
Very good general point. This post by John Holbo is an examination of this “slippery slope towards absolutism” that libertarianism is in the risk of falling through. Holbo is a liberal and part of his goal is to score points against libertarianism, but I think he is on to something.
I don’t think, however, that this is an accurate description of Moldbug’s failure mode. The “family resemblance” of his doctrines with libertarianism is not through an ethical injunction of formal liberty to dispose of property, extended to governments. It is rather through a cluster of empirical and empirical-ish right-wing beliefs (government regulation is corrupt and inefficient, Austrian economics is correct and Keynesianism is nonsense, liberal policies on crime are abject failures, etc). His ultimate terminal goals seem to be social order and the minimization of conflict. These lead to the rejection of democracy and its replacement by an all-powerful absolute government as the best way to eliminate both crime and the inefficient jockeying of factions for political power; then the libertarian faith in efficient free markets provides trust that (a) a “patchwork” of such states would be enough to prevent abuses, though competition and right of exit, and (b) within each state, the government will adopt broadly libertarian policies as the way to maximize prosperity to be able to extract the Laffer maximum in taxes.
So instead of starting from libertarian values and developing them in a different direction, his system starts with a very different value and develops it in a direction at ends up close to anarcho-capitalism.
Good description, but I think that Moldbug’s ideology also has a “hidden” arational/romantic side, although it’s simultaneously a technocratic one—a Randian aesthetic of sorts, crossed with a Roman-style cult of mastery and dominance. Consider his hero-worship obituary for Steve Jobs, and compare it with Corey Robin’s enlightening examination of Joseph de Maistre. Both of them praise and admire above all competition, victory, fiercely defended supremacy, strength through ruthless adversity, control.
M.M. talks about “social order” and “minimization of conflict” not just because he wants to maximize hedonic utility for humans or something generic like that. Rather, he wants a certain mode of existence, where a technocratic system—a crowdsourced monarchist AGI of sorts—will actively seek out and ruthlessly destroy every disruptive element, every irregularity, every bug—and then continuously apply economic and political coercion to prevent further disturbance. He deeply and sincerely wants the paperclips to run on time. Consider theseposts on the link between the engineer/tech-geek mindset and fundamentalism/authoritarianism/far-right radicalism.
Please believe me when I say I know how all this feels from the inside. I fear this mindset in others because my own brain can run it and I find the effects unacceptable. (I wouldn’t hesitate to proselytize for e.g. forced total wireheading or a bloody world revolution—if it was the only way to avoid this future.)
As someone who finds alt-right ideas interesting to read about and discuss, but is at the end of the day a conventional mainstream liberal, the advice I’d give you is: you should chill out.
Discussion of political topics at this site, as at Moldbug’s and other related ones, and also the vast majority of blogs and sites all over the political spectrum (with the possible but tiny exception of a handful of blogs connected to the D or R party apparatus or to insiders affecting government policy decisions) is essentially mental masturbation, something that will not affect in any way the future of humanity. It is just a way to pass the time some find interesting, as others prefer solving Sudoku puzzles or pondering Newcomblike problems.
Your feeling that a group of ideological “outsiders” who don’t share your values is growing in influence, and might take over if they are not “cordoned” and lead to some horrible catastrophe, sounds like the kind of feeling appropriate for a small hunter-gatherer tribe where if a dozen or two enemies of you join forces and take over you will have a very bad time. It is not appropriate for the objective situation of a forum with several thousand people, and much less for a country of 300 million people or a humanity of 7 billion people. The future of the world, even the future of LW, is not going to be shaped by the occasional crypto-racist (/sexist/fascist/etc) posts of a handful of people.
Sufficiently bad government can make a large difference, so it’s not irrational to oppose bad ideas. On the other hand, most bad ideas don’t get a chance to take hold. And on yet another hand, if you don’t like something, it’s very tempting to evoke the worst possible consequences and make them seem as vivid as possible.
Sure, it is reasonable to oppose bad ideas and to worry about worst-case scenarios. But when these are objectively low-probability, the reactions of “horror and rage” seem disproportionate.
Many in the rationalist community are also part of the memetic cluster of the “Dark Enlightenment”. Moldbuggians, PUAs and HBDers are noticeable and seem to be participating in good faith on this forum, making various contributions while being mostly tolerant and polite to those of differing views. I argue this kind of ideological diversity and cooperation is vital to the goals of this community.
Again your post causes me to pause in concern. We don’t see many arguments on LW calling for a wide political coalition to disband and attack The Cathedral, which I think I could make quite convincingly if I wanted to here. The way well meaning people would understand and implement your call would lead to my own exclusion and that of others such as Vladimir_M.
Should those like me be hanging out in Roissy’s comment section rather than here?
Konkvistador, you were deep in the Enemy’s counsel! Tell us what you know! Do you really believe that they are all like Derbyshire, merely doomsaying and wallowing in bitterness? Their numbers grow by the hour; they will first be encouraged by this, then emboldened, then they will gather every single forbidden idea, every scrap of dark knowledge, and put Universalism to the test.
They profess scorn of all dreams and utopias, yet they have their own desire—Pronomianism, a stable world, safe for domination and slavery, where the strong are free from restraint and convention and the weak are free from choice and autonomy. They know where they want to go, they know their enemy, they do not fear for their feelings, conscience or sanity. Mainstream Universalism has only sheer numbers and inertia against these force multipliers.
I believe that we ought to strike as soon as possible. Few on the Left are alerted and concerned yet—but people like Land probably don’t expect a counterattack until much later, and surely don’t expect it to come from outside the Cathederal. Isolate them epistemically while they’re still few, attack their values as evil and dehumanizing, drive them into a phyg-like structure that would be bad at growth. So, what else can be done?
You underestimate universalism. It has adapted before. Recall that the Cathedral is a warm body machine, a belief pump. The victory of Democracy in the age of conscription and the printing press was no fluke. So as long as human minds by the billions can be thrown into the gears of war its complete defeat is unimaginable. What you must defend is not the ideology but the strategy. So clearly in order for this strategy to be viable you have to burn the mutant, kill the xeno and purge the heretics.
I see the “dark enlightenment” as a very minor force with little potential for growth, but one that intellectually seems a necessary correction to some of the mistakes of the first “enlightenment” that have metastasised over the past two centuries.
It won’t kill Universalism or even dethrone it, it might however create the happy state of affairs where the Cathedral’s theocratic nature is recognized as such and considered legitimate but people don’t take it too seriously. Like say the Anglican Church a century or two back.
Roissy is not dispensing any advice that goes beyond what is common in sexual cultures created by well meaning universalists in the inner city and lower class. Philosophers such as Nick Land may be scary in their style and thoughts, but their inquiry is following the tradition of Nietzsche and Schopenhauer. Bloggers like Moldbug are fascinated by the civilized aspects and achievements of Western civilization in the past more than its hierarchy. Their more scientifically minded members as say John Derbyshire (who you consider to have a grim heart) are rather reasonable. And stepping away from their atheist mainstream to their intellectual Christian faction? Do you even have a problem with those?
I grow more and more convinced that the dark enlightenment is a reformation of universalism rather than its abolition. Recall one of their favourite memes is fighting Lies and the search for Truth, a more Christian notion could not be found.
Recall one of their favourite memes is fighting Lies and the search for Truth, a more Christian notion could not be found.
I’m not an expert on this by any means, but I always thought of that as a Christian syncretion of a Greek preoccupation. A lot of the more philosophical side of the historical Christian worldview got its start that way, and Aquinas in particular had a lot of Aristotle in him.
Yes I think this is correct, up voted. What I wanted to emphasize is that the received these particular memes almost certainly via Christianity, even if the religion wasn’t their origin. It is evidence in favor of them carrying other universalist assumptions and values from the same source.
Their more scientifically minded members as say John Derbyshire (who you consider to have a grim heart) are rather reasonable.
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If, on the other hand, group underachievement is a consequence of the laws of biology working on human populations, there is no blame to assign. The fact of group inequalities, even in societies that have striven mightily to remove them, is as natural and inevitable as individual inequality, which nobody minds very much. The only proper object of blame is Mother Nature; and she is capable of inflicting far worse things on us than mere statistical disparities between ancient inbred populations… …Under a reigning philosophy of candor and realism, each of us can strive to be the best he can be, to play as best he can the hand he’s been dealt, in liberty and equality under the law.
This might fit my definition of “reason”… but what is noble or compassionate about it? How is Derbyshire preaching acceptance of inequality and submission to Nature different from the Catholic Church preaching acceptance of death and submission to God? If you think it reasonable to loathe death, why would you not loathe the genetic lottery?
So, in defiance of this psychological difference, and in defiance of politics, let me point out that a group injustice has no existence apart from injustice to individuals It’s individuals who have brains to experience suffering. It’s individuals who deserve, and often don’t get, a fair chance at life. If God has not given intelligence in equal measure to all his children, God stands convicted of a crime against humanity, period. Skin colour has nothing to do with it, nothing at all.
I support Eliezer completely. Therefore I have to oppose Derbyshire unflinchingly.
The only proper object of blame is Mother Nature; and she is capable of inflicting far worse things on us than mere statistical disparities between ancient inbred populations..
This does not seem like submission to nature to me. I do not think he would object at all to say genetic engineering or eugenic programs aimed at reducing such suffering or boosting cognitive performance.
This might fit my definition of “reason”… but what is noble or compassionate about it? How is Derbyshire preaching acceptance of inequality and submission to Nature different from the Catholic Church preaching acceptance of death and submission to God? If you think it reasonable to loathe death, why would you not loathe the genetic lottery?
Derbyshire is asking us to please stop trying things that do not work and scapegoating those who aren’t responsible for misery inflicted by nature! I find it remarkable that you do not seem to grasp the moral relevance of avoiding scapegoating people at all! It is a terrible thing to look down on people and make them feel guilty and bad for something that is not their fault.
If you want to find nobility and compassion I say look here.
Under a reigning philosophy of candor and realism, each of us can strive to be the best he can be, to play as best he can the hand he’s been dealt, in liberty and equality under the law.
I hope this will be the point of view our elites will arrive at when the Standard Model has crumbled into dust. The other alternative, the one envisaged by Herrnstein and Murray, would be worse, far worse. I intend to do all I can to promote the idea that there is a sane path, a path of reason, fairness, and liberty, of “candor and realism,” between phony egalitarianism and vicious neo-racism. Follow me down that path, please.
You read the article but did not understand it. Derbyshire stands where he stands intellectually because he can not do otherwise, no more than he can convince himself that there is a God. That is something I understand and sympathize with.
I will go further and say that he fears many of the same societal outcomes that you do.
each of us can strive to be the best he can be, to play as best he can the hand he’s been dealt
But look, he demands that we accept it as a tolerable state of affairs! Eliezer says the opposite—yes, no particular person is to blame, but things are still horrible; we’re still living in a nightmare. To borrow from left-wing jargon again, I want a right to negativity here, a forceful statement that the default/normal/natural condition is awful, even with no-one to blame, and that there is an ethical imperative to ameliorate it.
Derbyshire’s article should have begun with “oughts”, his “is” statements might be true but they’re insufficient for humans. The fact that you being born e.g. black and in the slums and now you’re likely fucked and maladapted is no-one else’s fault does not mean that you are not entitled to scream, to express anguish. And dude, there’s a lot of anguish!
But look, he demands that we accept it as a tolerable state of affairs!
Taboo “tolerable”.
Eliezer says the opposite—yes, no particular person is to blame, but things are still horrible; we’re still living in a nightmare. To borrow from left-wing jargon again, I want a right to negativity here, a forceful statement that the default/normal/natural condition is awful, even with no-one to blame, and that there is an ethical imperative to ameliorate it.
What ethical system are you using to make that assertion?
Eliezer is a utilitarian. Yes, it would improve overall utility to ameliorate this particular problem, there are also hundreds of other problems whose solution would also improve utility, and frankly by any measure of urgency or returns to effort, this one really isn’t even in the top 100.
If you think it reasonable to loathe death, why would you not loathe the genetic lottery?
If God has not given intelligence in equal measure to all his children, God stands convicted of a crime against humanity, period. Skin colour has nothing to do with it, nothing at all.
Do you also believe that it’s a crime against humanity for God not to have given all humans (or even any humans) AGI-level intelligence?
I believe that we ought to strike now. Isolate them epistemically while they’re still few, attack their values as evil and dehumanizing, drive them into a phyg-like structure that would be bad at growth. So, what else can be done?
Oh wow. It’s on! It’s officially on like Donkey Kong.
Created on: 01-Dec-12
Expires on: 01-Dec-14
Last Updated on: 03-Dec-12
Wonder when they’ll put up something quotable, from Land or otherwise—maybe some “watchdog” far-left blog would be interested. (BTW some New-Left-y blog that looks at the aesthetics of materialist philosophy has been covering Land; unfortunately, the university jargon there is near-impenetrable.)
But the disturbing thing to me is that the mainstream doesn’t seem to react to the challenge.
Academia and mainstream political and philosophical tradition have no reason to engage what they don’t need to engage to maintain their position. The Dark Enlightenment is far from power or influence on society. If it demonstrates the ability to grasp it I am sure something like the counter-reformation will be brought to bare by the major established institutions against it.
I took away one thing from the Dark Enlightenment link—that it’s worth being shocked that cities have districts where the local culture makes it hard for people to live with each other. I don’t know whether his claim that first world Asian cities don’t have such districts is true.
Yet there’s not enough acknowledgement and conscious defense of those values, so when such content is challenged from an alt-right perspective, the attacking side ends up with the last word in the discussion. So to me it feels, subjectively, as if an alien force is ripping whole chunks out of the comfortable “default” memeplex, and no-one on the “inside” is willing or able to counterattack!
As someone who recently realized that the default memeplex is in fact a memeplex and probably wrong, I think I have an idea for why no one on the “inside” counterattacks.
We don’t realize we are even in a memeplex that can be attacked. There’s no explicit defense of those values because they just feel like the way the world is; we don’t recognize them as values needing defending.
The standard universalist immune response is not calibrated to the alt-right, and doesn’t recognize it as hostile. Also, some of it is recognized and flagged as “idiocy; ignore.”
If we do recognize the attack, we have no canned response. It’s hard to get original thought out of people; much easier to get zombie slogan chanting.
I just realized though, that this explanation is entirely a rationalization. It might have no connection to reality.
So to me it feels, subjectively, as if an alien force is ripping whole chunks out of the comfortable “default” memeplex, and no-one on the “inside” is willing or able to counterattack!
They are. They just can’t come up with good arguments.
They are. They just can’t come up with good arguments.
I think what is happening here is a bit more subtle than your summary suggests. First, many of the notions being proposed or discussed while in some sense “conservative″ are things like Moldbug’s ideas which while they do fall into one end, they aren’t in any way standard arguments or even issues. So people may simply not be able to raise effective arguments since they are grappling with approaches with which they haven’t had to think about before. Similarly, I suspect that all of us would have trouble making responses to arguments favoring say complete dissolution of all governments above the county level, not because such arguments are strong, but because we’re not used to thinking about them or constructing arguments against them.
Moreover, the meta-contrarian nature of Less Wrong, makes people very taken with arguments of forms that they haven’t seen before, so there may be a tendency to upvote or support an interesting contrarian argument even as one doesn’t pay as much attention to why the argument simply fails.
Finally, contrarian attitudes have an additional advantage when phrased in a political context: They aren’t as obviously political. The politics-as-mindkiller meme is very strong here, so a viewpoint that everyone recognizes as by nature political gets labeled as potential mindkilling to be avoided while arguments that don’t fit into the standard political dialogue as much don’t pattern match as closely.
Not sure about the last paragraph. People’s ideologies are part of the background to how they think, and political ideas that align with someone’s ideology can sometimes blend into that background without being registered. Contrarian ideas are less likely to blend in, and so more likely to be flagged by mainstreamers as political.
We have seen posters motivated enough to engage in karmassasination of users making right wing arguments so this seems plausible. The weight of evidence certainly seems to be on the alt-right side quite strongly on several issues and has been building ever more that way for decades.
Yet the demographics of metacontrarianism however are something we should keep in mind. Perhaps people clever enough to construct on their own novel arguments rather than just picking them up from academia or mainstream political tradition don’t yet have much to signal by doing this. If 10 or 20% of LWers where conservatives and another 10% of reactionaries perhaps they would. For now though they stay in the alternative right wing camp where the fun ideas and displays of cleverness are to be had. I’m basing that number on anti-libertarian arguments being viable in our community.
When people talk about karma assassination, what tools do they use for keeping track?
All I’ve got is the count by my name and checking back for a few pages of my comments. I would like to get information about which comments have the most recent karma changes.
And not to be paranoid, but I think I had about 14 points go away a few days ago for no apparent reason. I’m not sure whether I misremembered my total, or someone found a bunch of comments they didn’t like, or it was just spite.
I don’t know of any tools per se. I suspect that people have a track of what karma most of their recent comments had, so they can simply check by looking there. There are also some subtle signs: For example, for most people the common karma on a comment is zero. So even if you don’t remember your karma (or if you are looking at someone else’s) and there are a lot of recent comments at −1 on a variety of different subjects that don’t look obviously bad, that’s a sign.
So that certainly sounds like karma assassination to me (assuming that you remembered the number correctly before hand). In general, karma almost always is increasing if one is a user in good standing, so on any given day, the variance will for most days probably be a question of how much it goes up by more than anything else. A drop of 14 in a single day in that context seems extreme.
If I see that almost all of the last 20 comments I published before yesterday at three o’ clock have 1 point less than they used to (including apparently unobjectionable ones such as me answering a relevant question), and almost none of more recent or more ancient comments do, then I guess something fishy is going on.
Like I already said a few times, nearly all the highly upvoted posts and comments that explicitly bring up ideology—like yours—appear to come from the right. Duh, you’ll say, if most of the LW stuff is implicitly liberal/progressive, then of course what’s going to stand out is (intelligently argued) contrarianism. But the disturbing thing to me is that the mainstream doesn’t seem to react to the challenge.
What I have in mind is not some isolated insightful comments e.g. criticizing moldbuggery, defending egalitarianism or feminism or something like that—they do appear—but an acknowledgement of LW’s underlying ideological non-neutrality. E.g. this post by Eliezer, or this one by Luke would’ve hardly been received well without the author and the audience sharing Enlightenment/Universalist values; both the tone and the message rely on an ideological foundation (one that I desire to analyze and add to—not deconstruct).
Yet there’s not enough acknowledgement and conscious defense of those values, so when such content is challenged from an alt-right perspective, the attacking side ends up with the last word in the discussion. So to me it feels, subjectively, as if an alien force is ripping whole chunks out of the comfortable “default” memeplex, and no-one on the “inside” is willing or able to counterattack!
The thing is right wing thinkers who end up on LessWrong and stay in the community should be comforting to you, these are the people who believe engaging in dialogue and common goals is possible. And I would argue they empower all members of the community by contributing to the explicit goal of refining human rationality or FAI design (though they might undermine some other implicit goals).
Compare this to the idea of right wing thinkers that take what they can from rationality and the alt right and then seeing they are not accepted in the nominally rationalist community leave for the world. Even as individuals that should concern you, but imagine a right wing community forming powered by the best tools from here. Somehow it seems its left wing only counterpart would be weaker.
The question is, how much do they contribute to the “value-neutral” goals like epistemic rationality/practical knowledge/whatever, versus the disutility that I suffer by them succeeding at their values—and perhaps getting to influence the future disproportionately, if LW/SIAI achieve a lot and give leverage to all participants? Extreme right-wingers all seem to share the explicit values of institutionalized dominance, rigid hierarchy, rejection of universal ethics and the suppression of any threat to such an order.
For example, you’ve quoted Roissy around here before as a good instrumental rationalist and worthwhile writer—and, say, Hanson links to him, and Vladimir_M endorsed him—yet I think that he must’ve already caused enough misery with his blog and his personal actions, never mind whatever political impact his vile thoughts might have. I don’t think that our community should be willing to cooperate or communicate with thinkers like him. At all. And he’s small fish compared to the intellectual currents that might appear if the “Dark Enlightenment” grows some more. I have pondered where those ideas might lead, and it fills me with equal part horror and rage.
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If this movement indeed has potential for growth, I wish for a broad cordon against it, from academic liberals like Corey Robin to far-left writers like Matthew Lyons to LW-style progressive technocrats.
You are too quick in ascribing incompatible values to people you disagree with. That’s the cheap way out; it allows you to write off their opinion without considering the fact that they might have the same terminal values as you, and arrived at their instrumental position for rational, empirical reasons. Then you’d have to actually consider whether their position is correct, instead of just writing them off.
This is the straw-man version you get taught about by the Universalist establishment. Don’t take it seriously as what these folks are actually thinking. Some people are just dumb and evil, and most confuse “this is instrumentally a good idea” with “this is terminally a good idea” but there’s less of them than you are taught, and there actually are good reasons for the apparent craziness.
It is perfectly possible for someone to have the same values as you and consider (the non-straw) version of those things to be instrumentally a good idea.
I don’t know what you are thinking but I know that feel. I had that same feel just a few months ago. I used to look at authoritarians, racists, PUAs, and such and think. “what the fuck is wrong with these people? How could they be so wrong? Are they evil?” mostly I just felt that horror and rage though.
The truth has a certain ring to it. I first noticed that truthiness with LW; “wow, these guys get thinking right”, then a while later, with MMSL (married PUA) “Wow, this stuff is totally different from what we’re taught, but it works (on my wife)”. Then with do-ocracy, and authoritarianism “wow this just works so much better for meetup organizing”. Then with HBD, when I realized that I could build an acceptable line of retreat in the case that the racists were right on the factual questions.
And then, to quote moldbug: “for a wide variety of controversial issues, it would be very, very easy for any smart young person with a few hours to spare to see what the pattern of truth and error, and its inevitable political associations, started to look like.” That is, the “Dark Enlightenment” convinced me, a former hardcore anarchist.
So please, please consider that your enemies are not evil mutants. That people might reject democracy, and accept dark enlightenment ideas for actual good reasons, not just because they have magical “incompatible values”. Please, please consider that you may not have all the facts, and that you may end up changing your mind on some of these issues.
Please don’t. What if you’re wrong? How will you realize your error if you put in hard blocks against certain ideas?
In response to your concerns, I ask one very specific thing of you. Please go and re-read Three Worlds Collide. Right now.
Nitpicks:
I reject it too. So?
Anarchist more like Bakunin or Durruti, or more like Rand? If it’s the latter, then your statement is remarkably unsurprising. So much of this is just the logical development of right-wing libertarianism.
WTF are you talking about. Just above, I was complaining how the “Universalist establishment” is silent even on the existence of the alt-right. In particular, it’s pigeonholing all opposition as either Strawman Christian Fundamentalist, Strawman Arrogant Capitalist or Strawman Racist Hick. Corey Robin’s polite and respectful, diligently researched work, The Reactionary Mind, got savaged by the NYT. If the goddamn New York Times is not the Pravda of the mainstream “Universalist establishment”, I don’t know what “establishment” we’re talking about at all.
One possible development of right-wing libertarianism. Specifically, what happens if you attempt to coherently extrapolate libertarian maxims, forgetting the original reason for stating them.
This is actually a common general failure mode, one starts with an ethical injunction and notices that it contains a term, X, that is vaguely defined. Rather than thinking about what definition of X would make the injunction make the most sense (which is admittedly dangerous with ethical injunctions) or treating the definition as a Schelling fence, one attempts to formulate a coherent definition of X that turns out to be very different from the one in use when the injunction was being formulated. In the extreme case one might conclude that X includes everything or nothing.
For example, libertarians believe that private parties should be free to do as they wish. Moldburgians extend the definition of private parties to include governments. (Edit: Disclaimer: I have read very little of Moldburg’s writings so this might not be an accurate description of his position.)
You’re own position, if I understand it correctly, suffers from a similar mistake. Specifically, you take the maxim “It is wrong to hold someone responsible for something that’s not his fault”, and narrow the definition of “fault” until nothing is ever anyone’s fault.
Very good general point. This post by John Holbo is an examination of this “slippery slope towards absolutism” that libertarianism is in the risk of falling through. Holbo is a liberal and part of his goal is to score points against libertarianism, but I think he is on to something.
I don’t think, however, that this is an accurate description of Moldbug’s failure mode. The “family resemblance” of his doctrines with libertarianism is not through an ethical injunction of formal liberty to dispose of property, extended to governments. It is rather through a cluster of empirical and empirical-ish right-wing beliefs (government regulation is corrupt and inefficient, Austrian economics is correct and Keynesianism is nonsense, liberal policies on crime are abject failures, etc). His ultimate terminal goals seem to be social order and the minimization of conflict. These lead to the rejection of democracy and its replacement by an all-powerful absolute government as the best way to eliminate both crime and the inefficient jockeying of factions for political power; then the libertarian faith in efficient free markets provides trust that (a) a “patchwork” of such states would be enough to prevent abuses, though competition and right of exit, and (b) within each state, the government will adopt broadly libertarian policies as the way to maximize prosperity to be able to extract the Laffer maximum in taxes.
So instead of starting from libertarian values and developing them in a different direction, his system starts with a very different value and develops it in a direction at ends up close to anarcho-capitalism.
Good description, but I think that Moldbug’s ideology also has a “hidden” arational/romantic side, although it’s simultaneously a technocratic one—a Randian aesthetic of sorts, crossed with a Roman-style cult of mastery and dominance. Consider his hero-worship obituary for Steve Jobs, and compare it with Corey Robin’s enlightening examination of Joseph de Maistre. Both of them praise and admire above all competition, victory, fiercely defended supremacy, strength through ruthless adversity, control.
M.M. talks about “social order” and “minimization of conflict” not just because he wants to maximize hedonic utility for humans or something generic like that. Rather, he wants a certain mode of existence, where a technocratic system—a crowdsourced monarchist AGI of sorts—will actively seek out and ruthlessly destroy every disruptive element, every irregularity, every bug—and then continuously apply economic and political coercion to prevent further disturbance. He deeply and sincerely wants the paperclips to run on time. Consider these posts on the link between the engineer/tech-geek mindset and fundamentalism/authoritarianism/far-right radicalism.
Please believe me when I say I know how all this feels from the inside. I fear this mindset in others because my own brain can run it and I find the effects unacceptable. (I wouldn’t hesitate to proselytize for e.g. forced total wireheading or a bloody world revolution—if it was the only way to avoid this future.)
I read it again a few weeks ago, does that count? What are you getting at?
More like Bakunin, but I never really followed any school of thought.
I apologize for reading you out of context.
As someone who finds alt-right ideas interesting to read about and discuss, but is at the end of the day a conventional mainstream liberal, the advice I’d give you is: you should chill out.
Discussion of political topics at this site, as at Moldbug’s and other related ones, and also the vast majority of blogs and sites all over the political spectrum (with the possible but tiny exception of a handful of blogs connected to the D or R party apparatus or to insiders affecting government policy decisions) is essentially mental masturbation, something that will not affect in any way the future of humanity. It is just a way to pass the time some find interesting, as others prefer solving Sudoku puzzles or pondering Newcomblike problems.
Your feeling that a group of ideological “outsiders” who don’t share your values is growing in influence, and might take over if they are not “cordoned” and lead to some horrible catastrophe, sounds like the kind of feeling appropriate for a small hunter-gatherer tribe where if a dozen or two enemies of you join forces and take over you will have a very bad time. It is not appropriate for the objective situation of a forum with several thousand people, and much less for a country of 300 million people or a humanity of 7 billion people. The future of the world, even the future of LW, is not going to be shaped by the occasional crypto-racist (/sexist/fascist/etc) posts of a handful of people.
Sufficiently bad government can make a large difference, so it’s not irrational to oppose bad ideas. On the other hand, most bad ideas don’t get a chance to take hold. And on yet another hand, if you don’t like something, it’s very tempting to evoke the worst possible consequences and make them seem as vivid as possible.
Sure, it is reasonable to oppose bad ideas and to worry about worst-case scenarios. But when these are objectively low-probability, the reactions of “horror and rage” seem disproportionate.
Konkvistador, maybe you would mention your recent… little incident? (If no, then sorry, never mind.)
Many in the rationalist community are also part of the memetic cluster of the “Dark Enlightenment”. Moldbuggians, PUAs and HBDers are noticeable and seem to be participating in good faith on this forum, making various contributions while being mostly tolerant and polite to those of differing views. I argue this kind of ideological diversity and cooperation is vital to the goals of this community.
Again your post causes me to pause in concern. We don’t see many arguments on LW calling for a wide political coalition to disband and attack The Cathedral, which I think I could make quite convincingly if I wanted to here. The way well meaning people would understand and implement your call would lead to my own exclusion and that of others such as Vladimir_M.
Should those like me be hanging out in Roissy’s comment section rather than here?
Konkvistador, you were deep in the Enemy’s counsel! Tell us what you know! Do you really believe that they are all like Derbyshire, merely doomsaying and wallowing in bitterness? Their numbers grow by the hour; they will first be encouraged by this, then emboldened, then they will gather every single forbidden idea, every scrap of dark knowledge, and put Universalism to the test.
They profess scorn of all dreams and utopias, yet they have their own desire—Pronomianism, a stable world, safe for domination and slavery, where the strong are free from restraint and convention and the weak are free from choice and autonomy. They know where they want to go, they know their enemy, they do not fear for their feelings, conscience or sanity. Mainstream Universalism has only sheer numbers and inertia against these force multipliers.
I believe that we ought to strike as soon as possible. Few on the Left are alerted and concerned yet—but people like Land probably don’t expect a counterattack until much later, and surely don’t expect it to come from outside the Cathederal. Isolate them epistemically while they’re still few, attack their values as evil and dehumanizing, drive them into a phyg-like structure that would be bad at growth. So, what else can be done?
You underestimate universalism. It has adapted before. Recall that the Cathedral is a warm body machine, a belief pump. The victory of Democracy in the age of conscription and the printing press was no fluke. So as long as human minds by the billions can be thrown into the gears of war its complete defeat is unimaginable. What you must defend is not the ideology but the strategy. So clearly in order for this strategy to be viable you have to burn the mutant, kill the xeno and purge the heretics.
For the Emperor!
I see the “dark enlightenment” as a very minor force with little potential for growth, but one that intellectually seems a necessary correction to some of the mistakes of the first “enlightenment” that have metastasised over the past two centuries.
It won’t kill Universalism or even dethrone it, it might however create the happy state of affairs where the Cathedral’s theocratic nature is recognized as such and considered legitimate but people don’t take it too seriously. Like say the Anglican Church a century or two back.
Roissy is not dispensing any advice that goes beyond what is common in sexual cultures created by well meaning universalists in the inner city and lower class. Philosophers such as Nick Land may be scary in their style and thoughts, but their inquiry is following the tradition of Nietzsche and Schopenhauer. Bloggers like Moldbug are fascinated by the civilized aspects and achievements of Western civilization in the past more than its hierarchy. Their more scientifically minded members as say John Derbyshire (who you consider to have a grim heart) are rather reasonable. And stepping away from their atheist mainstream to their intellectual Christian faction? Do you even have a problem with those?
I grow more and more convinced that the dark enlightenment is a reformation of universalism rather than its abolition. Recall one of their favourite memes is fighting Lies and the search for Truth, a more Christian notion could not be found.
I’m not an expert on this by any means, but I always thought of that as a Christian syncretion of a Greek preoccupation. A lot of the more philosophical side of the historical Christian worldview got its start that way, and Aquinas in particular had a lot of Aristotle in him.
Yes I think this is correct, up voted. What I wanted to emphasize is that the received these particular memes almost certainly via Christianity, even if the religion wasn’t their origin. It is evidence in favor of them carrying other universalist assumptions and values from the same source.
....
This might fit my definition of “reason”… but what is noble or compassionate about it? How is Derbyshire preaching acceptance of inequality and submission to Nature different from the Catholic Church preaching acceptance of death and submission to God? If you think it reasonable to loathe death, why would you not loathe the genetic lottery?
I support Eliezer completely. Therefore I have to oppose Derbyshire unflinchingly.
This does not seem like submission to nature to me. I do not think he would object at all to say genetic engineering or eugenic programs aimed at reducing such suffering or boosting cognitive performance.
Derbyshire is asking us to please stop trying things that do not work and scapegoating those who aren’t responsible for misery inflicted by nature! I find it remarkable that you do not seem to grasp the moral relevance of avoiding scapegoating people at all! It is a terrible thing to look down on people and make them feel guilty and bad for something that is not their fault.
If you want to find nobility and compassion I say look here.
You read the article but did not understand it. Derbyshire stands where he stands intellectually because he can not do otherwise, no more than he can convince himself that there is a God. That is something I understand and sympathize with.
I will go further and say that he fears many of the same societal outcomes that you do.
But look, he demands that we accept it as a tolerable state of affairs! Eliezer says the opposite—yes, no particular person is to blame, but things are still horrible; we’re still living in a nightmare. To borrow from left-wing jargon again, I want a right to negativity here, a forceful statement that the default/normal/natural condition is awful, even with no-one to blame, and that there is an ethical imperative to ameliorate it.
Derbyshire’s article should have begun with “oughts”, his “is” statements might be true but they’re insufficient for humans. The fact that you being born e.g. black and in the slums and now you’re likely fucked and maladapted is no-one else’s fault does not mean that you are not entitled to scream, to express anguish. And dude, there’s a lot of anguish!
Taboo “tolerable”.
What ethical system are you using to make that assertion?
Eliezer is a utilitarian. Yes, it would improve overall utility to ameliorate this particular problem, there are also hundreds of other problems whose solution would also improve utility, and frankly by any measure of urgency or returns to effort, this one really isn’t even in the top 100.
Do you also believe that it’s a crime against humanity for God not to have given all humans (or even any humans) AGI-level intelligence?
Clearly, he means we should kill anyone who deviates from the average because they devalue the rest.
As an intellectual exercise, what would the Catholic Special Containment Procedure for ultra hazardous memetic materials look like applied to reaction.
Actually why wouldn’t ultra-traditional Catholicism work in such a role?
Or maybe the hour is later than you think Multiheaded.
Oh wow. It’s on! It’s officially on like Donkey Kong.
Wonder when they’ll put up something quotable, from Land or otherwise—maybe some “watchdog” far-left blog would be interested. (BTW some New-Left-y blog that looks at the aesthetics of materialist philosophy has been covering Land; unfortunately, the university jargon there is near-impenetrable.)
Well, that’s an expected precaution.
Ha-haah! Moldburg got Defoe confused with Swift. Fail!
no
Academia and mainstream political and philosophical tradition have no reason to engage what they don’t need to engage to maintain their position. The Dark Enlightenment is far from power or influence on society. If it demonstrates the ability to grasp it I am sure something like the counter-reformation will be brought to bare by the major established institutions against it.
I took away one thing from the Dark Enlightenment link—that it’s worth being shocked that cities have districts where the local culture makes it hard for people to live with each other. I don’t know whether his claim that first world Asian cities don’t have such districts is true.
As someone who recently realized that the default memeplex is in fact a memeplex and probably wrong, I think I have an idea for why no one on the “inside” counterattacks.
We don’t realize we are even in a memeplex that can be attacked. There’s no explicit defense of those values because they just feel like the way the world is; we don’t recognize them as values needing defending.
The standard universalist immune response is not calibrated to the alt-right, and doesn’t recognize it as hostile. Also, some of it is recognized and flagged as “idiocy; ignore.”
If we do recognize the attack, we have no canned response. It’s hard to get original thought out of people; much easier to get zombie slogan chanting.
I just realized though, that this explanation is entirely a rationalization. It might have no connection to reality.
They are. They just can’t come up with good arguments.
I think what is happening here is a bit more subtle than your summary suggests. First, many of the notions being proposed or discussed while in some sense “conservative″ are things like Moldbug’s ideas which while they do fall into one end, they aren’t in any way standard arguments or even issues. So people may simply not be able to raise effective arguments since they are grappling with approaches with which they haven’t had to think about before. Similarly, I suspect that all of us would have trouble making responses to arguments favoring say complete dissolution of all governments above the county level, not because such arguments are strong, but because we’re not used to thinking about them or constructing arguments against them.
Moreover, the meta-contrarian nature of Less Wrong, makes people very taken with arguments of forms that they haven’t seen before, so there may be a tendency to upvote or support an interesting contrarian argument even as one doesn’t pay as much attention to why the argument simply fails.
Finally, contrarian attitudes have an additional advantage when phrased in a political context: They aren’t as obviously political. The politics-as-mindkiller meme is very strong here, so a viewpoint that everyone recognizes as by nature political gets labeled as potential mindkilling to be avoided while arguments that don’t fit into the standard political dialogue as much don’t pattern match as closely.
Not sure about the last paragraph. People’s ideologies are part of the background to how they think, and political ideas that align with someone’s ideology can sometimes blend into that background without being registered. Contrarian ideas are less likely to blend in, and so more likely to be flagged by mainstreamers as political.
I think him being acutely aware of this possibility is what contributes to feeling under siege by scary aliens.
The fact that I don’t have time to write essays with the historical facts that Moldbug always seems to omit does not mean that I couldn’t.
(Although talk is cheap, so this post is not really a reason for anyone else to believe that).
Generally speaking the historical facts Moldbug omits are the ones most educated readers should be familiar with anyway.
We have seen posters motivated enough to engage in karmassasination of users making right wing arguments so this seems plausible. The weight of evidence certainly seems to be on the alt-right side quite strongly on several issues and has been building ever more that way for decades.
Yet the demographics of metacontrarianism however are something we should keep in mind. Perhaps people clever enough to construct on their own novel arguments rather than just picking them up from academia or mainstream political tradition don’t yet have much to signal by doing this. If 10 or 20% of LWers where conservatives and another 10% of reactionaries perhaps they would. For now though they stay in the alternative right wing camp where the fun ideas and displays of cleverness are to be had. I’m basing that number on anti-libertarian arguments being viable in our community.
It seems possibly relevant to point out that karma assasination has been occurring in the last few days to people of a wide variety of political viewpoints. For example the recent thread on women’s experience was reported as leading to multiple incidents of karma assassination to people espousing views classically labeled as feminist.
Engagement in karma fights probably doesn’t give much data about accuracy of beliefs or peoples confidence in their own belief structures.
When people talk about karma assassination, what tools do they use for keeping track?
All I’ve got is the count by my name and checking back for a few pages of my comments. I would like to get information about which comments have the most recent karma changes.
And not to be paranoid, but I think I had about 14 points go away a few days ago for no apparent reason. I’m not sure whether I misremembered my total, or someone found a bunch of comments they didn’t like, or it was just spite.
I don’t know of any tools per se. I suspect that people have a track of what karma most of their recent comments had, so they can simply check by looking there. There are also some subtle signs: For example, for most people the common karma on a comment is zero. So even if you don’t remember your karma (or if you are looking at someone else’s) and there are a lot of recent comments at −1 on a variety of different subjects that don’t look obviously bad, that’s a sign.
Edit: Over what time span was the 14 point drop?
Less than a day.
So that certainly sounds like karma assassination to me (assuming that you remembered the number correctly before hand). In general, karma almost always is increasing if one is a user in good standing, so on any given day, the variance will for most days probably be a question of how much it goes up by more than anything else. A drop of 14 in a single day in that context seems extreme.
If I see that almost all of the last 20 comments I published before yesterday at three o’ clock have 1 point less than they used to (including apparently unobjectionable ones such as me answering a relevant question), and almost none of more recent or more ancient comments do, then I guess something fishy is going on.