I actually would not have generated the substance of the parent comment (or been able to articulate the follow-up explanations) without the pattern-matching described in the analogy you criticized. I can see a case for avoiding this sort of rhetoric regardless, but want to make sure it’s clear that your proposed standard would have required me to do substantially more up-front interpretive labor before getting any evidence someone would listen, with the most likely result of me not making the point at all.
This would be totally fine if anyone else were making that point. I strongly encourage people who want more civil discourse and have the time and patience to do it, to preempt or outcompete me! I’d be so very happy if that happened consistently on things like this.
I actually would not have generated the substance of the parent comment (or been able to articulate the follow-up explanations) without the pattern-matching described in the analogy you criticized.
This is not a fully formed take yet, but something about this rubs me the wrong way. It seems to me like you’re saying “this reasoning step was correct because it resulted in me reaching conclusion X, which seems correct,” but this doesn’t seem like an adequate response to “this conclusion seems suspect, because it was generated by a reasoning step that seems suspect.” I would expect suspect reasoning steps to be self-reinforcing (because they provide their own support, indirectly, through the conclusions that they make seem convincing), which makes procedural-level injunctions (“hmm, it seems like this reasoning step is suspect for global reasons, even though it looks locally correct”) rather important.
Raemon was criticizing my rhetoric, specifically distinguishing that from a criticism of my argument, and claiming I could make the same argument a different way. I’m saying, no, this is actually how I figured out the thing, and it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise.
This would be totally fine if anyone else were making that point.
It seemed to me that other people were making the same point, AFAICT. (This comment by Dagon, this one by Vanessa). (I have more thoughts on this matter but focusing that response into another comment, see elsethread)
As Benquo says, these are related points, but my reaction and my anticipation of others’ reactions to those comments are completely different, and neither Dagon nor Vanessa, while their comments were good and helpful, invoked the ‘oh, yeah, that’s pretty terrible’ thing in the way or on the level that Benquo did. If anything, that’s evidence that what Benquo is doing here is necessary to communicate the point.
There’s substantial overlap between my comment and theirs, but neither one of those covered the implied group dynamics, which were the whole point of referencing examples of the connection between asymmetric standards and organized violence against political minorities.
I actually would not have generated the substance of the parent comment (or been able to articulate the follow-up explanations) without the pattern-matching described in the analogy you criticized. I can see a case for avoiding this sort of rhetoric regardless, but want to make sure it’s clear that your proposed standard would have required me to do substantially more up-front interpretive labor before getting any evidence someone would listen, with the most likely result of me not making the point at all.
This would be totally fine if anyone else were making that point. I strongly encourage people who want more civil discourse and have the time and patience to do it, to preempt or outcompete me! I’d be so very happy if that happened consistently on things like this.
This is not a fully formed take yet, but something about this rubs me the wrong way. It seems to me like you’re saying “this reasoning step was correct because it resulted in me reaching conclusion X, which seems correct,” but this doesn’t seem like an adequate response to “this conclusion seems suspect, because it was generated by a reasoning step that seems suspect.” I would expect suspect reasoning steps to be self-reinforcing (because they provide their own support, indirectly, through the conclusions that they make seem convincing), which makes procedural-level injunctions (“hmm, it seems like this reasoning step is suspect for global reasons, even though it looks locally correct”) rather important.
Raemon was criticizing my rhetoric, specifically distinguishing that from a criticism of my argument, and claiming I could make the same argument a different way. I’m saying, no, this is actually how I figured out the thing, and it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise.
It seemed to me that other people were making the same point, AFAICT. (This comment by Dagon, this one by Vanessa). (I have more thoughts on this matter but focusing that response into another comment, see elsethread)
As Benquo says, these are related points, but my reaction and my anticipation of others’ reactions to those comments are completely different, and neither Dagon nor Vanessa, while their comments were good and helpful, invoked the ‘oh, yeah, that’s pretty terrible’ thing in the way or on the level that Benquo did. If anything, that’s evidence that what Benquo is doing here is necessary to communicate the point.
There’s substantial overlap between my comment and theirs, but neither one of those covered the implied group dynamics, which were the whole point of referencing examples of the connection between asymmetric standards and organized violence against political minorities.