[note: I don’t consider myself Utilitarian and sometimes apply True Scotsman to argue that no human can be, but that’s mostly trolling and not my intent here. I’m not an EA in any but the most big-tent form (I try to be effective in things I do, and I am somewhat altruistic in many of my preferences). ]
I think Alice is confused about how status and group participation works. Which is fine, we all are—it’s insanely complicated. But she’s not even aware how confused she is, and she’s making a huge typical mind fallacy in telling Bob that he can’t use her preferred label “Utilitarian”.
I think she’s also VERY confused about sizes and structures of organization. Neither “the Effective Altruist movement” nor “rationalist community” are coherent structures in the sense she’s talking about. Different sites, group homes, companies, and other specific groups CAN make decisions on who is invited and what behaviors are encouraged or discouraged. If she’d said “Bob, I won’t hire you for my lab working on X because you don’t seem to be serious about Y”, there would be ZERO controversy. This is a useful and clear communication. When she says “I don’t think you should call yourself Utilitarian”, she’s just showing herself as insecure and controlling.
Honestly, the most effective people (note: distinct from “hardest working”) in sane organizations do have the most respect and influence. But that’s not a binary, and it’s not what everyone is capable of or seeks. MOST actual humans are members of multiple groups, and have many terms in their imputed utility function. How much of one’s effort to give to a given part of life is a pretty wide continuum.
I did a lot of interviewing and interview training for a former large employer, and an important rule (handed down through an oral tradition because it can’t really be written down and made legible) was “don’t hire jerks”. I’d rather work with Bob than Alice, and I’m sad that Alice probably won’t understand why.
Hmm, does your response change if they’re housemates or something like that?
I agree there’d be no controversy about Alice deciding not to hire Bob because he doesn’t meet her standards, and I think there’d be little controversy over some org deciding to hire Bob over Alice because he’s more likeable. But, if it makes the post work better for you, you can totally pretend that instead of talking about membership in “the rationalist community”, they’re talking about “membership in the Greater Springfield Rationalist Book Club that meets on Tuesdays in Alice and Bob’s group house”. I think Alice kicking Bob out of that would be much more contentious and controversial!
Part of my response is “this is very context-dependent”, and that is overwhelmingly true for a group house or book club. Alice can, of course, leave either one if she feels Bob is ruining her experience. She may or may not convince others to kick Bob out if he doesn’t shape up, depending on the style of group and charter for formal ownership of the house.
She’d be far better off, in either case, being specific about what she wants Bob to do differently, rather than just saying “work harder”.
[note: I don’t consider myself Utilitarian and sometimes apply True Scotsman to argue that no human can be, but that’s mostly trolling and not my intent here. I’m not an EA in any but the most big-tent form (I try to be effective in things I do, and I am somewhat altruistic in many of my preferences). ]
I think Alice is confused about how status and group participation works. Which is fine, we all are—it’s insanely complicated. But she’s not even aware how confused she is, and she’s making a huge typical mind fallacy in telling Bob that he can’t use her preferred label “Utilitarian”.
I think she’s also VERY confused about sizes and structures of organization. Neither “the Effective Altruist movement” nor “rationalist community” are coherent structures in the sense she’s talking about. Different sites, group homes, companies, and other specific groups CAN make decisions on who is invited and what behaviors are encouraged or discouraged. If she’d said “Bob, I won’t hire you for my lab working on X because you don’t seem to be serious about Y”, there would be ZERO controversy. This is a useful and clear communication. When she says “I don’t think you should call yourself Utilitarian”, she’s just showing herself as insecure and controlling.
Honestly, the most effective people (note: distinct from “hardest working”) in sane organizations do have the most respect and influence. But that’s not a binary, and it’s not what everyone is capable of or seeks. MOST actual humans are members of multiple groups, and have many terms in their imputed utility function. How much of one’s effort to give to a given part of life is a pretty wide continuum.
I did a lot of interviewing and interview training for a former large employer, and an important rule (handed down through an oral tradition because it can’t really be written down and made legible) was “don’t hire jerks”. I’d rather work with Bob than Alice, and I’m sad that Alice probably won’t understand why.
Hmm, does your response change if they’re housemates or something like that?
I agree there’d be no controversy about Alice deciding not to hire Bob because he doesn’t meet her standards, and I think there’d be little controversy over some org deciding to hire Bob over Alice because he’s more likeable. But, if it makes the post work better for you, you can totally pretend that instead of talking about membership in “the rationalist community”, they’re talking about “membership in the Greater Springfield Rationalist Book Club that meets on Tuesdays in Alice and Bob’s group house”. I think Alice kicking Bob out of that would be much more contentious and controversial!
Part of my response is “this is very context-dependent”, and that is overwhelmingly true for a group house or book club. Alice can, of course, leave either one if she feels Bob is ruining her experience. She may or may not convince others to kick Bob out if he doesn’t shape up, depending on the style of group and charter for formal ownership of the house.
She’d be far better off, in either case, being specific about what she wants Bob to do differently, rather than just saying “work harder”.