It should be noted that I observe the tone of the parent of my rebuttal to be aggressive, with vigorous use of shaming to present a position that undermines a core value of this community. A vigorous response should be expected.
At WrongBot’s suggestion I have removed the sentence containing the word ‘evil’. Since almost nobody except myself uses that word in a technical sense it was foolish of me to include it here. I went through planning to edit out anything else that I wrote in haste that I would remove on reflection but I was surprised to find that was the only edit I needed to make. What remains has my reflective endorsement.
It should be noted that I observe the tone of the parent of my rebuttal to be aggressive, with vigorous use of shaming to present a position that undermines a core value of this community
No, I cannot let you get away with that. The position I was presenting was that small good deeds should not be discouraged. If you are going to assert that that undermines a core value of this community (which one?), you are going to have to present a serious (and almost certainly novel) argument before you get to call me “evil”.
Absolutely no “shaming” was used in presenting this position. The charge is an ironic one, because I am in fact attempting to defend myself and any other warm-fuzzy-enthusiasts who may happen to consider themselves members of this community from being “shamed” by those who would regard with contempt any activity not (e.g.) calculated to minimize the expected number of deaths.
Epistemic rationality (which, by the way, is what I presented the Knox case as a lesson in in the first place) is, as you know, not an end in itself. At least, it isn’t the ultimate end. There has to be something to protect. And, at least in my own case, part of what I protect is that part of myself that is capable of caring about specific, individual humans, apart from “humanity” as an aggregate.
For the sake of cutting to the chase, let me now present what I think this disagreement is really about, and you can correct me if necessary. I think what is going on here is that you perceive the kind of “caring” I described above as an obstacle to epistemic rationality, which should therefore be Destroyed. Is that right, or am I being unfair?
At WrongBot’s suggestion I have removed the sentence containing the word ‘evil’...What remains has my reflective endorsement.
The position I was presenting was that small good deeds should not be discouraged.
An inefficient small good deed is a negated greater good deed requiring the same effort. In this framing, the “small good deed” is actually a bad deed, and should be discouraged.
An inefficient small good deed is a negated greater good deed requiring the same effort.
False. Time isn’t fungible, and humans demonstrably don’t make decisions that way.
Among other things, when humans are faced with too many alternatives, we usuallly choose “none of the above”… which means that the moment you complicate the question by even considering what those “greater good deeds might be”, you dramatically reduce the probability that anything whatsoever will be accomplished.
False. Time isn’t fungible, and humans demonstrably don’t make decisions that way.
False (at least I reject the incorrect generalization you use to contradict Vladmir). People who do small goods are less inclined to do subsequent goods. Given that the instincts evaluate ‘good’ more or less independently of any achievement fake ‘good deeds’ can prevent subsequent good deeds that make a difference. (This has been demonstrated.)
(Incidentally, Vladimir did not mention time at all.)
He didn’t have to. If time were unlimited, one could do any number of good deeds, and it would literally not matter how many of them you did, you could always do more… and thus there would be no competition between choices of how to use that time.
The assumption that not doing something now lets you do more later is false, however, because the time is already passing—if you choose not to do something now, this doesn’t give you any more time to do it later. Thus, a real thing done now beats an imaginary thing to be done later (which, given human psychology, probably won’t actually be done).
People who do small goods are less inclined to do subsequent goods.
Oh really? What about the FITD effect?
On the other hand, see Doing your good deed for the day (presumably what wedrifid was referring to). Figuring out which effect dominates under which circumstances seems like an important open problem. (My first, simple, guess would be that altruism is depleted in the short term and strengthened in the long term by use, like willpower or muscular strength.)
Figuring out which effect dominates under which circumstances seems like an important open problem. (My first, simple, guess would be that altruism is depleted in the short term and strengthened in the long term by use, like willpower or muscular strength.)
Given evidence for both the FITD effect and the DITF effect, I wonder if both are merely special cases of a broader effect that makes people more likely to accede to a request if they’ve received previous requests from the same source. The low-ball effect would also fit that theory.
Either way, I don’t think those wikipedia pages are very good evidence of anything at all, given that they cite work by only one researcher and do nothing but restate his conclusions with a positive slant. I suspect on those grounds that those pages are the work of a sock-puppet or someone caught in an affective death spiral; even if they’re not, they’re certainly not up to wikipedia’s usual (fairly decent) standard.
He didn’t have to. If time were unlimited, one could do any number of good deeds, and it would literally not matter how many of them you did, you could always do more… and thus there would be no competition between choices of how to use that time.
You’ll note that what he did mention was effort, an entirely different resource, particularly as it applies to humans.
The assumption that not doing something now lets you do more later is false, however, because the time is already passing
This isn’t an assumption of Vladmir’s, it is yours. What we do know is that spending $10 now is $10 that you can not spend later. More importantly given what we know about how humans spend money, $10 you are spending right now on one (completely useless) charity is $10 you are unlikely to spend within this month on an altruistic act that is, in fact, useful.
I guessed wedrifid was referring to this story. There does seem to be some evidence for people feeling that a few virtuous acts give them license to behave badly.
A good example Matt, I hadn’t come across that one specifically but I do know that studies have reliably shown that people who have done one good act feel less obliged to do another one in the short term. This is exactly what we would expect based on signalling needs. I would be rather surprised if pj hadn’t encountered such studies given his chosen occupation.
As for the argument itself: it says nothing more than that the good is bad because it isn’t perfect. That is obviously wrong, because the good is better than nothing. It shouldn’t be discouraged; rather, the better should be (separately) encouraged.
I think what is going on here is that you perceive the kind of “caring” I described above as an obstacle to epistemic rationality, which should therefore be Destroyed. Is that right, or am I being unfair?
That is not right. I disagree specifically with the claims which I quoted in my reply and my disagreement is limited to precisely that which is contained in said reply.
I approve, for example, of seeking warm fuzzies and this is entirely in line with my stated position.
I approve, for example, of seeking warm fuzzies and this is entirely in line with my stated position.
Then what, exactly, do we disagree about?
(Your earlier comment is of no help in clarifying this; in fact you explicitly described the pursuit of warm fuzzies—as would be exemplified by contributing to the causes listed in the post—as “bad decision making”.)
in fact you explicitly described the pursuit of warm fuzzies—as would be exemplified by contributing to the causes listed in the post—as “bad decision making”.
This is not the case. I explicitly describe the equivocation of ‘rational’ with any meaning apart from ‘rational’ (and the application of said equivocation when decision making) as ‘bad decision making’.
Okay, I think I see what happened. Your original point was really this:
This isn’t a religious community and ‘rational’ is not or should not be just the local jargon for ’anything asserted to be morally good
-- with which I agree. However, the following statements distracted from that point and confused me:
The examples listed are not rational. They are examples of ‘altruism’ for the sake of a ‘warm feeling’ and signalling
I make a call for a different response. I encourage people to resist the influence, suppress the irrational urge take actions that are neither optimal signals nor an optimal instrument for satisfying their altruistic values.
These made it sound like you were saying “No! Don’t contribute to those causes! Doing so would be irrational, since they’re not philanthropically optimal!” (I unfortunately have a high prior on that type of argument being made here.) My natural response, which I automatically fired off when I saw that your comment had 17 upvotes, is that there’s nothing irrational about liking to do small good deeds (warm fuzzies) separately from saving the planet.
However, as I understand you now, you don’t necessarily see anything wrong with those causes; it’s just that you disapprove of the label “rationality” being used to describe their goodness—rather than, say, just plain “goodness”.
That’s a decent take. But how do we account for people that are not most effectively modeled as agents with goals? Deontologists for example, can be evil even if their (alleged) preferences entirely match mine.
You’re talking about people who, when acting in a way that they themselves morally endorse, do not pursue the exact same goals you yourself value? In that case, there are few people on Less Wrong who aren’t evilwedrifid, much fewer (by proportion) people in your culture who aren’t evilwedrifid, and hardly anyone at all in the world who isn’t evilwedrifid. I’m not commenting on your own values, wedrifid; practically any two people will disagree about something.
Even if everyone understood your technical usage of “evil”, it wouldn’t convey much information.
It should be noted that I observe the tone of the parent of my rebuttal to be aggressive, with vigorous use of shaming to present a position that undermines a core value of this community. A vigorous response should be expected.
At WrongBot’s suggestion I have removed the sentence containing the word ‘evil’. Since almost nobody except myself uses that word in a technical sense it was foolish of me to include it here. I went through planning to edit out anything else that I wrote in haste that I would remove on reflection but I was surprised to find that was the only edit I needed to make. What remains has my reflective endorsement.
No, I cannot let you get away with that. The position I was presenting was that small good deeds should not be discouraged. If you are going to assert that that undermines a core value of this community (which one?), you are going to have to present a serious (and almost certainly novel) argument before you get to call me “evil”.
Absolutely no “shaming” was used in presenting this position. The charge is an ironic one, because I am in fact attempting to defend myself and any other warm-fuzzy-enthusiasts who may happen to consider themselves members of this community from being “shamed” by those who would regard with contempt any activity not (e.g.) calculated to minimize the expected number of deaths.
Epistemic rationality (which, by the way, is what I presented the Knox case as a lesson in in the first place) is, as you know, not an end in itself. At least, it isn’t the ultimate end. There has to be something to protect. And, at least in my own case, part of what I protect is that part of myself that is capable of caring about specific, individual humans, apart from “humanity” as an aggregate.
For the sake of cutting to the chase, let me now present what I think this disagreement is really about, and you can correct me if necessary. I think what is going on here is that you perceive the kind of “caring” I described above as an obstacle to epistemic rationality, which should therefore be Destroyed. Is that right, or am I being unfair?
See my ETA.
An inefficient small good deed is a negated greater good deed requiring the same effort. In this framing, the “small good deed” is actually a bad deed, and should be discouraged.
False. Time isn’t fungible, and humans demonstrably don’t make decisions that way.
Among other things, when humans are faced with too many alternatives, we usuallly choose “none of the above”… which means that the moment you complicate the question by even considering what those “greater good deeds might be”, you dramatically reduce the probability that anything whatsoever will be accomplished.
False (at least I reject the incorrect generalization you use to contradict Vladmir). People who do small goods are less inclined to do subsequent goods. Given that the instincts evaluate ‘good’ more or less independently of any achievement fake ‘good deeds’ can prevent subsequent good deeds that make a difference. (This has been demonstrated.)
(Incidentally, Vladimir did not mention time at all.)
Oh really? What about the FITD effect?
He didn’t have to. If time were unlimited, one could do any number of good deeds, and it would literally not matter how many of them you did, you could always do more… and thus there would be no competition between choices of how to use that time.
The assumption that not doing something now lets you do more later is false, however, because the time is already passing—if you choose not to do something now, this doesn’t give you any more time to do it later. Thus, a real thing done now beats an imaginary thing to be done later (which, given human psychology, probably won’t actually be done).
On the other hand, see Doing your good deed for the day (presumably what wedrifid was referring to). Figuring out which effect dominates under which circumstances seems like an important open problem. (My first, simple, guess would be that altruism is depleted in the short term and strengthened in the long term by use, like willpower or muscular strength.)
That is my guess too.
Given evidence for both the FITD effect and the DITF effect, I wonder if both are merely special cases of a broader effect that makes people more likely to accede to a request if they’ve received previous requests from the same source. The low-ball effect would also fit that theory.
Either way, I don’t think those wikipedia pages are very good evidence of anything at all, given that they cite work by only one researcher and do nothing but restate his conclusions with a positive slant. I suspect on those grounds that those pages are the work of a sock-puppet or someone caught in an affective death spiral; even if they’re not, they’re certainly not up to wikipedia’s usual (fairly decent) standard.
You’ll note that what he did mention was effort, an entirely different resource, particularly as it applies to humans.
This isn’t an assumption of Vladmir’s, it is yours. What we do know is that spending $10 now is $10 that you can not spend later. More importantly given what we know about how humans spend money, $10 you are spending right now on one (completely useless) charity is $10 you are unlikely to spend within this month on an altruistic act that is, in fact, useful.
I guessed wedrifid was referring to this story. There does seem to be some evidence for people feeling that a few virtuous acts give them license to behave badly.
A good example Matt, I hadn’t come across that one specifically but I do know that studies have reliably shown that people who have done one good act feel less obliged to do another one in the short term. This is exactly what we would expect based on signalling needs. I would be rather surprised if pj hadn’t encountered such studies given his chosen occupation.
That was apparently not the argument that wedrifid was making after all.
As for the argument itself: it says nothing more than that the good is bad because it isn’t perfect. That is obviously wrong, because the good is better than nothing. It shouldn’t be discouraged; rather, the better should be (separately) encouraged.
Again, see this post.
That is not right. I disagree specifically with the claims which I quoted in my reply and my disagreement is limited to precisely that which is contained in said reply.
I approve, for example, of seeking warm fuzzies and this is entirely in line with my stated position.
Then what, exactly, do we disagree about?
(Your earlier comment is of no help in clarifying this; in fact you explicitly described the pursuit of warm fuzzies—as would be exemplified by contributing to the causes listed in the post—as “bad decision making”.)
This is not the case. I explicitly describe the equivocation of ‘rational’ with any meaning apart from ‘rational’ (and the application of said equivocation when decision making) as ‘bad decision making’.
Okay, I think I see what happened. Your original point was really this:
-- with which I agree. However, the following statements distracted from that point and confused me:
These made it sound like you were saying “No! Don’t contribute to those causes! Doing so would be irrational, since they’re not philanthropically optimal!” (I unfortunately have a high prior on that type of argument being made here.) My natural response, which I automatically fired off when I saw that your comment had 17 upvotes, is that there’s nothing irrational about liking to do small good deeds (warm fuzzies) separately from saving the planet.
However, as I understand you now, you don’t necessarily see anything wrong with those causes; it’s just that you disapprove of the label “rationality” being used to describe their goodness—rather than, say, just plain “goodness”.
Is this right?
What’s a technical definition of “evil”, then? I would say something about incompatible higher goals, but I’d find your take interesting.
That’s a decent take. But how do we account for people that are not most effectively modeled as agents with goals? Deontologists for example, can be evil even if their (alleged) preferences entirely match mine.
You’re talking about people who, when acting in a way that they themselves morally endorse, do not pursue the exact same goals you yourself value? In that case, there are few people on Less Wrong who aren’t evilwedrifid, much fewer (by proportion) people in your culture who aren’t evilwedrifid, and hardly anyone at all in the world who isn’t evilwedrifid. I’m not commenting on your own values, wedrifid; practically any two people will disagree about something.
Even if everyone understood your technical usage of “evil”, it wouldn’t convey much information.