When dating women, men are (traditionally) expected pick up the check. A naïve MRA might complain that this gives women an advantage, at men’s expense. Yet economic theory tells us that that men would be just bad off if women were expected to pick up the check. How can this be?
Layperson’s explanation: If Congress suddenly mandated that all women pick up the check, men would want to date more. They’d be more eager to ask women out, and improve their value by working out or buying nice clothes. Women would be less eager to accept date requests, knowing that they’d have to foot the bill. They would be less motivated to improve their value by working out or buying nice clothes. In the new dating market, men wouldn’t have to pick up the check, but they’d be dating flabbier women with cheaper clothes. Women would get to date fitter men in nicer clothes, but they’d have to pick up the check. Overall, neither sex is better off.
The men-pick-up-the-check norm can also be modeled as an opportunity for men to signal in a costly way. An opportunity to signal may be positive or negative or neutral, depending on the game-theoretic details (as well as side effects further removed from the immediate “game”). Removing the opportunity from one group of people and giving it to another may well increase or decrease the aggregate social welfare and/or cause a transfer from one group to another.
ETA: In case it’s not clear, “working out or buying nice clothes” are not perfect signaling substitutes for paying for dinner at an expensive restaurant. Someone with good physique might have good genes, a lot of spare time, or just enjoys exercising. Nice cloths can be reused for other dates and hence can’t be used to signal interest in a particular person.
My naive internal economist agrees. However, culture matters! I would guess that such a norm, with a persistent minor reminder of who is privileged to have whose company, would subtly shift the norms of which sex is higher-status.
Much depends on the presentation though—is it “payment for (highly-valued) company” or “responsibility for the less capable”?
This argument can be generalized for any sex/courtship double standard.
Really? That is a strong claim. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that some sufficiently arbitrary discrepancy could violate one of the premises that this kind of economic generalization relies on.
I can see how someone could read this and think “is the author a human being?” But I still think I’m right. People aren’t used to applying dry topics like economics onto intimate activities like dating.
People aren’t used to applying dry topics like economics onto intimate activities like dating.
There have been a slew of pop-economics books over the past decade or so that apply economic concepts to just about anything but pecuniary subjects. Insofar as people without an academic background in the subject apply economic theory to anything, I’d say this is simply untrue.
Most people who are concerned about gender egalitarianism probably feel, in fact, slightly relieved that this comment is quite, so to say, neutral—I know I did!
It treats hypothetical males as selfish animals who only care about dating a physically attractive fertile female and hypothetical females as selfish animals who only care about dating a socially attractive tribal chieftain! So basically it’s neither misogynistic nor misandric, it’s simply misanthropic :)
I say it reads like satire because it looks like a joke an economist might make when trying to underscore the limitations of simple supply/demand models, in a similar fashion to the efficient market hypothesis punchline of “if there was really $100 on the floor, someone would have picked it up already”.
I say you’re much less neurotic than me! Y’know, like that saying that Orwell couldn’t blow his nose without moralizing on conditions in the handkerchief industry. I have yet to attain any of his virtues, but I already have some of his flaws. :)
It treats hypothetical males as selfish animals who only care about dating a physically attractive fertile female and hypothetical females as selfish animals who only care about dating a socially attractive tribal chieftain!
I tried going further than that by making them exactly symmetrical: both sexes want a physically fit partner who wears nice clothes.
At any rate, my argument holds no matter what men/women want. As long as men and women can invest scarce resources into improving their dating value.
Your argument sounds correct to me. To change tax incidence, you need to change one of the parties’ preferences, e.g. get most men to sincerely believe that picking up the check isn’t worth it.
If Congress suddenly mandated that all women pick up the check, men would want to date more.
Are people actually willing to date someone they otherwise wouldn’t just for the free food? I’ve seen this claimed elsewhere, but personally the amount I’d have to be paid for me to be willing to spend a few hours with someone I dislike is higher than the amount I’d pay for a meal by at least half an order of magnitude. So, was I incorrectly generalizing from one example?
Are people actually willing to date someone they otherwise wouldn’t just for the free food?
Many, almost certainly. Whether they would ever admit to themselves that crude economic incentives could have a deciding influence at the margin is an entirely different question. They just need to feel different amounts of attraction without understanding why.
The effect is at the margins. A man won’t date an extremely unattractive woman for free food. But if a woman is barely below a man’s minimum standards, the prospect of free food can lift her over
When looking at the sexual marketplace from an economic standpoint, I think the most ideal solution is hiring a prostitute or a gigolo. Here are my reasons:
1) Prostitutes/gigolos usually have more “fit bodies and nice clothes” than the ones you would normally get in the dating market.
2) Prostitutes/gigolos are more experienced and adventurous and therefore more capable of satisfying you sexually.
3) You don’t need to waste time with prostitutes/gigolos before having intercourse with them. For normal dates, you will have to court them several times amounting to dozens of hours, and even then, they might decide to break up before you even hit second base.
I can think of other reasons, but you can understand where this is going.
If I am in the market for long term relationships, I would like to have the capability of filtering out the moneydiggers who don’t particularly feel attracted to me and are only interested in my money. These are the only people who are less likely to date me if they were going to pay for my dinner. Women who are truly attracted to me will find the whole issue of who is expected to pay no more than trivial.
I would like to have the capability of filtering out the moneydiggers who don’t particularly feel attracted to me and are only interested in my money. These are the only people who are less likely to date me if they were going to pay for my dinner.
So would women who don’t want to date a weirdo who doesn’t conform to social norms (and is probably low status because of it.)
I would like to have the capability of filtering out the moneydiggers who don’t particularly feel attracted to me and are only interested in my money. These are the only people who are less likely to date me if they were going to pay for my dinner. Women who are truly attracted to me will find the whole issue of who is expected to pay no more than trivial.
There’s a spectrum of attractedness (in particular, there is a spectrum of initial attractedness). On the margin, money can matter, especially if you’re competing against a sea of opportunity costs who have different opinions about who pays for dinner. You may still set this as a dealbreaker, but your analysis of the situation is flawed.
And there’s some baseline of attractedness required before someone will let you buy them dinner, since your company is presumably a feature of that dinner. There are loads of people who I would not have dinner with even if they offered to buy me really nice food.
Alicorn, my goal is a healthy long-term relationship with a minimal amount of money and time. There are three categories of women:
1) Moneydiggers: The false positives. I want to minimize my chances of winding up with them.
2) The category you suggested: Those who are mildly interested in me and don’t mind having a dinner and getting to know me better, as long as I’m paying. My chances of winding up with a long-term relationship with them are say 1 in 10.
3) Those who are so attracted to me they will date me anyways even if I insist we split the bill or I force them to pay. They will find the whole issue trivial compared to the comfort of being around me. My chances with them are say 1 in 2.
If I enforce the rule of forcing women to pay or at least split the bill, I will reduce the false positives (the moneydiggers) who will think I’m money-conscious, which is good. I will also increase the false negatives (people who would have wound up in a relation with me if I hadn’t insisted we split the bill), which is bad and reduces my options, but now the ones I’m left with are the only ones who are worthile. I am not going to waste my time and money dining someone unless there’s at least a 1 in 2 chance she will remain with me.
Edit 2: Now I realize my argument is a little irrelevant because it addresses my personal dating policy rather than the general implications of forcing women to pay for dinner.
Insisting the other person pay has a lot more signalling implications than you think. Depending on the rest of your personality/appearance, it can make you seem like a cheapskate, or like someone who’s overconfident, or someone who gets laid a lot so doesn’t care about impressing random women, etc.
You’re also viewing attraction in a very weird way. Most romance isn’t love at first sight. Making a good impression on someone and seeing them a lot increases the amount they like you, and it is very unlikely that you meet someone for a first date and they totally want to be in a relationship right away, regardless of bill splitting. It’s far more likely that they have some impression of you, either positive or negative, that bill-splitting will influence one way or the other depending on their personality and yours.
1) Moneydiggers: The false positives. I want to minimize my chances of winding up with them.
2) The category you suggested: Those who are mildly interested in me and don’t mind having a dinner and getting to know me better, as long as I’m paying. My chances of winding up with a long-term relationship with them are say 1 in 10.
3) Those who are so attracted to me they will date me anyways even if I insist we split the bill or I force them to pay. They will find the whole issue trivial compared to the comfort of being around me. My chances with them are say 1 in 2.
4) Those who will not (or are less likely to) date you if you insist on paying but do want to date you when split or otherwise arrange approximately equal expenditure.
I am not going to waste my time and money dining someone unless there’s at least a 1 in 2 chance she will remain with me.
If intended literally rather than as an illustration I suggest your figures may be unrealistic.
In addition to what drethelin said, aren’t you failing to take base rates into account? If there are many more women in category 2 than in 1 and 3, then you should pay the check even if only 10% of them are viable candidates for a long-term relationship.
For example, suppose there are 100 women who accept a dinner date with you. 4 are moneydiggers, 6 are very attracted and willing to split the bill (and 3 of them are potential soulmates) and 90 want to know you better but would find you weird if you don’t pay (and 9 of them are potential soulmates).
By paying, you keep in good terms with all 100, and have a 12% chance of soulmate, a 4% chance of moneydigger and a 84% chance of meh. By refusing to pay, you have a 3% chance of soulmate, a 3% chance of meh, and a 94% chance of never seeing the woman again (which includes 9% chance of having lost a soulmate). Is raising your probability of finding a soulmate from 3% to 12% not worth the minor monetary expense of paying the check, and the minor time expense of following up with some of that 94% you wouldn’t have seen otherwise until you can place them more accurately?
My priority was to find a healthy relationship with the least amount of expenditure spent on finding it. If I have too many dating opportunities and just want to limit my choices to the more viable candidates, I would do what I said. If my dating opportunities are more limited, I would have to consider what drethelin and Athrelon said before breaking any social norms.
Instead of viewing dating as an expenditure of money, you can just spend money on things you want to do and factor dating into it. If you meet someone you like, can you invite them to do stuff you like with you? It doesn’t need to be a seperate section of your life
Good point. I should have taken that into account. It is not as perfect as hanging out with a friend. Your date will probably lack experience with the activity and might wind up feeling bored or uncomfortable. Also the emotional stress from the sexual tension, your unfamiliarity with each other and the uncertainty of your relationship all have their toll on your enjoyment. On the other hand, it is not as simple as time and money being flushed down the drain once you break up.
The activity doesn’t need to be a sport or something you get skilled at. I like to take walks to a park near my house, so when I went out there with a girl it was fun for me, we had good conversations, and nothing was “flushed down the drain” as you say, even though I never saw her again.
Even sticking with the original dinner-date scenario: ElGalambo, are you really saying that for you going out to dinner with a woman you find interesting enough to consider a possible long-term partner is an unpleasant activity on net, an unfortunate expenditure you have to put up with for the sake of the benefit of finding a partner? That seems awfully sad.
Or are you talking specifically about the financial cost, and saying that dinner dates have to be so outrageously expensive that on balance they’re negative apart from the possibility of finding a long-term partner? (If so, perhaps your pool of prospective partners is too picky.)
When dating women, men are (traditionally) expected pick up the check. A naïve MRA might complain that this gives women an advantage, at men’s expense. Yet economic theory tells us that that men would be just bad off if women were expected to pick up the check. How can this be?
Layperson’s explanation: If Congress suddenly mandated that all women pick up the check, men would want to date more. They’d be more eager to ask women out, and improve their value by working out or buying nice clothes. Women would be less eager to accept date requests, knowing that they’d have to foot the bill. They would be less motivated to improve their value by working out or buying nice clothes. In the new dating market, men wouldn’t have to pick up the check, but they’d be dating flabbier women with cheaper clothes. Women would get to date fitter men in nicer clothes, but they’d have to pick up the check. Overall, neither sex is better off.
Economist’s explanation: In the sexual marketplace model, the men-pick-up-the-check norm can be modeled as a tax paid by men. Tax incidence is not affected by which party pays the tax.
This argument can be generalized for any sex/courtship double standard.
In a world with no transaction costs, perfect competition and full information, this is correct.
In a world of high transaction costs, market power and information asymmetry, this is not necessarily the case.
Which world does the dating market look more like to you?
The men-pick-up-the-check norm can also be modeled as an opportunity for men to signal in a costly way. An opportunity to signal may be positive or negative or neutral, depending on the game-theoretic details (as well as side effects further removed from the immediate “game”). Removing the opportunity from one group of people and giving it to another may well increase or decrease the aggregate social welfare and/or cause a transfer from one group to another.
ETA: In case it’s not clear, “working out or buying nice clothes” are not perfect signaling substitutes for paying for dinner at an expensive restaurant. Someone with good physique might have good genes, a lot of spare time, or just enjoys exercising. Nice cloths can be reused for other dates and hence can’t be used to signal interest in a particular person.
My naive internal economist agrees. However, culture matters! I would guess that such a norm, with a persistent minor reminder of who is privileged to have whose company, would subtly shift the norms of which sex is higher-status.
Much depends on the presentation though—is it “payment for (highly-valued) company” or “responsibility for the less capable”?
Really? That is a strong claim. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that some sufficiently arbitrary discrepancy could violate one of the premises that this kind of economic generalization relies on.
Are you aware this reads like a piece of satire?
I can see how someone could read this and think “is the author a human being?” But I still think I’m right. People aren’t used to applying dry topics like economics onto intimate activities like dating.
There have been a slew of pop-economics books over the past decade or so that apply economic concepts to just about anything but pecuniary subjects. Insofar as people without an academic background in the subject apply economic theory to anything, I’d say this is simply untrue.
Certainly, I think that people in my social group are more likely to have read Freakonomics than any more traditional economics book.
Only because humans are dumb when thinking about evolutionarily novel things like money in the context of evolutionarily ancient things like mating.
Most people who are concerned about gender egalitarianism probably feel, in fact, slightly relieved that this comment is quite, so to say, neutral—I know I did!
It treats hypothetical males as selfish animals who only care about dating a physically attractive fertile female and hypothetical females as selfish animals who only care about dating a socially attractive tribal chieftain! So basically it’s neither misogynistic nor misandric, it’s simply misanthropic :)
I say it reads like satire because it looks like a joke an economist might make when trying to underscore the limitations of simple supply/demand models, in a similar fashion to the efficient market hypothesis punchline of “if there was really $100 on the floor, someone would have picked it up already”.
I say you’re much less neurotic than me! Y’know, like that saying that Orwell couldn’t blow his nose without moralizing on conditions in the handkerchief industry. I have yet to attain any of his virtues, but I already have some of his flaws. :)
I tried going further than that by making them exactly symmetrical: both sexes want a physically fit partner who wears nice clothes.
At any rate, my argument holds no matter what men/women want. As long as men and women can invest scarce resources into improving their dating value.
What if we mandate splitting the check?
Your argument sounds correct to me. To change tax incidence, you need to change one of the parties’ preferences, e.g. get most men to sincerely believe that picking up the check isn’t worth it.
Are people actually willing to date someone they otherwise wouldn’t just for the free food? I’ve seen this claimed elsewhere, but personally the amount I’d have to be paid for me to be willing to spend a few hours with someone I dislike is higher than the amount I’d pay for a meal by at least half an order of magnitude. So, was I incorrectly generalizing from one example?
Many, almost certainly. Whether they would ever admit to themselves that crude economic incentives could have a deciding influence at the margin is an entirely different question. They just need to feel different amounts of attraction without understanding why.
The effect is at the margins. A man won’t date an extremely unattractive woman for free food. But if a woman is barely below a man’s minimum standards, the prospect of free food can lift her over
Prostitution exists.
Yes, but most people are not prostitutes.
ETA: also, AFAIK escorts are an order of magnitude more expensive than street prostitutes.
When looking at the sexual marketplace from an economic standpoint, I think the most ideal solution is hiring a prostitute or a gigolo. Here are my reasons: 1) Prostitutes/gigolos usually have more “fit bodies and nice clothes” than the ones you would normally get in the dating market. 2) Prostitutes/gigolos are more experienced and adventurous and therefore more capable of satisfying you sexually. 3) You don’t need to waste time with prostitutes/gigolos before having intercourse with them. For normal dates, you will have to court them several times amounting to dozens of hours, and even then, they might decide to break up before you even hit second base.
I can think of other reasons, but you can understand where this is going.
If I am in the market for long term relationships, I would like to have the capability of filtering out the moneydiggers who don’t particularly feel attracted to me and are only interested in my money. These are the only people who are less likely to date me if they were going to pay for my dinner. Women who are truly attracted to me will find the whole issue of who is expected to pay no more than trivial.
So would women who don’t want to date a weirdo who doesn’t conform to social norms (and is probably low status because of it.)
There’s a spectrum of attractedness (in particular, there is a spectrum of initial attractedness). On the margin, money can matter, especially if you’re competing against a sea of opportunity costs who have different opinions about who pays for dinner. You may still set this as a dealbreaker, but your analysis of the situation is flawed.
And there’s some baseline of attractedness required before someone will let you buy them dinner, since your company is presumably a feature of that dinner. There are loads of people who I would not have dinner with even if they offered to buy me really nice food.
Alicorn, my goal is a healthy long-term relationship with a minimal amount of money and time. There are three categories of women:
1) Moneydiggers: The false positives. I want to minimize my chances of winding up with them.
2) The category you suggested: Those who are mildly interested in me and don’t mind having a dinner and getting to know me better, as long as I’m paying. My chances of winding up with a long-term relationship with them are say 1 in 10.
3) Those who are so attracted to me they will date me anyways even if I insist we split the bill or I force them to pay. They will find the whole issue trivial compared to the comfort of being around me. My chances with them are say 1 in 2.
If I enforce the rule of forcing women to pay or at least split the bill, I will reduce the false positives (the moneydiggers) who will think I’m money-conscious, which is good. I will also increase the false negatives (people who would have wound up in a relation with me if I hadn’t insisted we split the bill), which is bad and reduces my options, but now the ones I’m left with are the only ones who are worthile. I am not going to waste my time and money dining someone unless there’s at least a 1 in 2 chance she will remain with me.
Edit: Think of it like the M&M story: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/433/transcript
Edit 2: Now I realize my argument is a little irrelevant because it addresses my personal dating policy rather than the general implications of forcing women to pay for dinner.
Insisting the other person pay has a lot more signalling implications than you think. Depending on the rest of your personality/appearance, it can make you seem like a cheapskate, or like someone who’s overconfident, or someone who gets laid a lot so doesn’t care about impressing random women, etc.
You’re also viewing attraction in a very weird way. Most romance isn’t love at first sight. Making a good impression on someone and seeing them a lot increases the amount they like you, and it is very unlikely that you meet someone for a first date and they totally want to be in a relationship right away, regardless of bill splitting. It’s far more likely that they have some impression of you, either positive or negative, that bill-splitting will influence one way or the other depending on their personality and yours.
I think you are right. Thanks for your insight.
4) Those who will not (or are less likely to) date you if you insist on paying but do want to date you when split or otherwise arrange approximately equal expenditure.
If intended literally rather than as an illustration I suggest your figures may be unrealistic.
In addition to what drethelin said, aren’t you failing to take base rates into account? If there are many more women in category 2 than in 1 and 3, then you should pay the check even if only 10% of them are viable candidates for a long-term relationship.
For example, suppose there are 100 women who accept a dinner date with you. 4 are moneydiggers, 6 are very attracted and willing to split the bill (and 3 of them are potential soulmates) and 90 want to know you better but would find you weird if you don’t pay (and 9 of them are potential soulmates).
By paying, you keep in good terms with all 100, and have a 12% chance of soulmate, a 4% chance of moneydigger and a 84% chance of meh. By refusing to pay, you have a 3% chance of soulmate, a 3% chance of meh, and a 94% chance of never seeing the woman again (which includes 9% chance of having lost a soulmate). Is raising your probability of finding a soulmate from 3% to 12% not worth the minor monetary expense of paying the check, and the minor time expense of following up with some of that 94% you wouldn’t have seen otherwise until you can place them more accurately?
My priority was to find a healthy relationship with the least amount of expenditure spent on finding it. If I have too many dating opportunities and just want to limit my choices to the more viable candidates, I would do what I said. If my dating opportunities are more limited, I would have to consider what drethelin and Athrelon said before breaking any social norms.
Instead of viewing dating as an expenditure of money, you can just spend money on things you want to do and factor dating into it. If you meet someone you like, can you invite them to do stuff you like with you? It doesn’t need to be a seperate section of your life
Good point. I should have taken that into account. It is not as perfect as hanging out with a friend. Your date will probably lack experience with the activity and might wind up feeling bored or uncomfortable. Also the emotional stress from the sexual tension, your unfamiliarity with each other and the uncertainty of your relationship all have their toll on your enjoyment. On the other hand, it is not as simple as time and money being flushed down the drain once you break up.
The activity doesn’t need to be a sport or something you get skilled at. I like to take walks to a park near my house, so when I went out there with a girl it was fun for me, we had good conversations, and nothing was “flushed down the drain” as you say, even though I never saw her again.
Even sticking with the original dinner-date scenario: ElGalambo, are you really saying that for you going out to dinner with a woman you find interesting enough to consider a possible long-term partner is an unpleasant activity on net, an unfortunate expenditure you have to put up with for the sake of the benefit of finding a partner? That seems awfully sad.
Or are you talking specifically about the financial cost, and saying that dinner dates have to be so outrageously expensive that on balance they’re negative apart from the possibility of finding a long-term partner? (If so, perhaps your pool of prospective partners is too picky.)
You may be expressing a contradiction here.
I meant minimum amount of money and time finding it. Sorry for my bad English,
You are talking to heterosexual males, correct?