Alicorn, my goal is a healthy long-term relationship with a minimal amount of money and time. There are three categories of women:
1) Moneydiggers: The false positives. I want to minimize my chances of winding up with them.
2) The category you suggested: Those who are mildly interested in me and don’t mind having a dinner and getting to know me better, as long as I’m paying. My chances of winding up with a long-term relationship with them are say 1 in 10.
3) Those who are so attracted to me they will date me anyways even if I insist we split the bill or I force them to pay. They will find the whole issue trivial compared to the comfort of being around me. My chances with them are say 1 in 2.
If I enforce the rule of forcing women to pay or at least split the bill, I will reduce the false positives (the moneydiggers) who will think I’m money-conscious, which is good. I will also increase the false negatives (people who would have wound up in a relation with me if I hadn’t insisted we split the bill), which is bad and reduces my options, but now the ones I’m left with are the only ones who are worthile. I am not going to waste my time and money dining someone unless there’s at least a 1 in 2 chance she will remain with me.
Edit 2: Now I realize my argument is a little irrelevant because it addresses my personal dating policy rather than the general implications of forcing women to pay for dinner.
Insisting the other person pay has a lot more signalling implications than you think. Depending on the rest of your personality/appearance, it can make you seem like a cheapskate, or like someone who’s overconfident, or someone who gets laid a lot so doesn’t care about impressing random women, etc.
You’re also viewing attraction in a very weird way. Most romance isn’t love at first sight. Making a good impression on someone and seeing them a lot increases the amount they like you, and it is very unlikely that you meet someone for a first date and they totally want to be in a relationship right away, regardless of bill splitting. It’s far more likely that they have some impression of you, either positive or negative, that bill-splitting will influence one way or the other depending on their personality and yours.
1) Moneydiggers: The false positives. I want to minimize my chances of winding up with them.
2) The category you suggested: Those who are mildly interested in me and don’t mind having a dinner and getting to know me better, as long as I’m paying. My chances of winding up with a long-term relationship with them are say 1 in 10.
3) Those who are so attracted to me they will date me anyways even if I insist we split the bill or I force them to pay. They will find the whole issue trivial compared to the comfort of being around me. My chances with them are say 1 in 2.
4) Those who will not (or are less likely to) date you if you insist on paying but do want to date you when split or otherwise arrange approximately equal expenditure.
I am not going to waste my time and money dining someone unless there’s at least a 1 in 2 chance she will remain with me.
If intended literally rather than as an illustration I suggest your figures may be unrealistic.
In addition to what drethelin said, aren’t you failing to take base rates into account? If there are many more women in category 2 than in 1 and 3, then you should pay the check even if only 10% of them are viable candidates for a long-term relationship.
For example, suppose there are 100 women who accept a dinner date with you. 4 are moneydiggers, 6 are very attracted and willing to split the bill (and 3 of them are potential soulmates) and 90 want to know you better but would find you weird if you don’t pay (and 9 of them are potential soulmates).
By paying, you keep in good terms with all 100, and have a 12% chance of soulmate, a 4% chance of moneydigger and a 84% chance of meh. By refusing to pay, you have a 3% chance of soulmate, a 3% chance of meh, and a 94% chance of never seeing the woman again (which includes 9% chance of having lost a soulmate). Is raising your probability of finding a soulmate from 3% to 12% not worth the minor monetary expense of paying the check, and the minor time expense of following up with some of that 94% you wouldn’t have seen otherwise until you can place them more accurately?
My priority was to find a healthy relationship with the least amount of expenditure spent on finding it. If I have too many dating opportunities and just want to limit my choices to the more viable candidates, I would do what I said. If my dating opportunities are more limited, I would have to consider what drethelin and Athrelon said before breaking any social norms.
Instead of viewing dating as an expenditure of money, you can just spend money on things you want to do and factor dating into it. If you meet someone you like, can you invite them to do stuff you like with you? It doesn’t need to be a seperate section of your life
Good point. I should have taken that into account. It is not as perfect as hanging out with a friend. Your date will probably lack experience with the activity and might wind up feeling bored or uncomfortable. Also the emotional stress from the sexual tension, your unfamiliarity with each other and the uncertainty of your relationship all have their toll on your enjoyment. On the other hand, it is not as simple as time and money being flushed down the drain once you break up.
The activity doesn’t need to be a sport or something you get skilled at. I like to take walks to a park near my house, so when I went out there with a girl it was fun for me, we had good conversations, and nothing was “flushed down the drain” as you say, even though I never saw her again.
Even sticking with the original dinner-date scenario: ElGalambo, are you really saying that for you going out to dinner with a woman you find interesting enough to consider a possible long-term partner is an unpleasant activity on net, an unfortunate expenditure you have to put up with for the sake of the benefit of finding a partner? That seems awfully sad.
Or are you talking specifically about the financial cost, and saying that dinner dates have to be so outrageously expensive that on balance they’re negative apart from the possibility of finding a long-term partner? (If so, perhaps your pool of prospective partners is too picky.)
Alicorn, my goal is a healthy long-term relationship with a minimal amount of money and time. There are three categories of women:
1) Moneydiggers: The false positives. I want to minimize my chances of winding up with them.
2) The category you suggested: Those who are mildly interested in me and don’t mind having a dinner and getting to know me better, as long as I’m paying. My chances of winding up with a long-term relationship with them are say 1 in 10.
3) Those who are so attracted to me they will date me anyways even if I insist we split the bill or I force them to pay. They will find the whole issue trivial compared to the comfort of being around me. My chances with them are say 1 in 2.
If I enforce the rule of forcing women to pay or at least split the bill, I will reduce the false positives (the moneydiggers) who will think I’m money-conscious, which is good. I will also increase the false negatives (people who would have wound up in a relation with me if I hadn’t insisted we split the bill), which is bad and reduces my options, but now the ones I’m left with are the only ones who are worthile. I am not going to waste my time and money dining someone unless there’s at least a 1 in 2 chance she will remain with me.
Edit: Think of it like the M&M story: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/433/transcript
Edit 2: Now I realize my argument is a little irrelevant because it addresses my personal dating policy rather than the general implications of forcing women to pay for dinner.
Insisting the other person pay has a lot more signalling implications than you think. Depending on the rest of your personality/appearance, it can make you seem like a cheapskate, or like someone who’s overconfident, or someone who gets laid a lot so doesn’t care about impressing random women, etc.
You’re also viewing attraction in a very weird way. Most romance isn’t love at first sight. Making a good impression on someone and seeing them a lot increases the amount they like you, and it is very unlikely that you meet someone for a first date and they totally want to be in a relationship right away, regardless of bill splitting. It’s far more likely that they have some impression of you, either positive or negative, that bill-splitting will influence one way or the other depending on their personality and yours.
I think you are right. Thanks for your insight.
4) Those who will not (or are less likely to) date you if you insist on paying but do want to date you when split or otherwise arrange approximately equal expenditure.
If intended literally rather than as an illustration I suggest your figures may be unrealistic.
In addition to what drethelin said, aren’t you failing to take base rates into account? If there are many more women in category 2 than in 1 and 3, then you should pay the check even if only 10% of them are viable candidates for a long-term relationship.
For example, suppose there are 100 women who accept a dinner date with you. 4 are moneydiggers, 6 are very attracted and willing to split the bill (and 3 of them are potential soulmates) and 90 want to know you better but would find you weird if you don’t pay (and 9 of them are potential soulmates).
By paying, you keep in good terms with all 100, and have a 12% chance of soulmate, a 4% chance of moneydigger and a 84% chance of meh. By refusing to pay, you have a 3% chance of soulmate, a 3% chance of meh, and a 94% chance of never seeing the woman again (which includes 9% chance of having lost a soulmate). Is raising your probability of finding a soulmate from 3% to 12% not worth the minor monetary expense of paying the check, and the minor time expense of following up with some of that 94% you wouldn’t have seen otherwise until you can place them more accurately?
My priority was to find a healthy relationship with the least amount of expenditure spent on finding it. If I have too many dating opportunities and just want to limit my choices to the more viable candidates, I would do what I said. If my dating opportunities are more limited, I would have to consider what drethelin and Athrelon said before breaking any social norms.
Instead of viewing dating as an expenditure of money, you can just spend money on things you want to do and factor dating into it. If you meet someone you like, can you invite them to do stuff you like with you? It doesn’t need to be a seperate section of your life
Good point. I should have taken that into account. It is not as perfect as hanging out with a friend. Your date will probably lack experience with the activity and might wind up feeling bored or uncomfortable. Also the emotional stress from the sexual tension, your unfamiliarity with each other and the uncertainty of your relationship all have their toll on your enjoyment. On the other hand, it is not as simple as time and money being flushed down the drain once you break up.
The activity doesn’t need to be a sport or something you get skilled at. I like to take walks to a park near my house, so when I went out there with a girl it was fun for me, we had good conversations, and nothing was “flushed down the drain” as you say, even though I never saw her again.
Even sticking with the original dinner-date scenario: ElGalambo, are you really saying that for you going out to dinner with a woman you find interesting enough to consider a possible long-term partner is an unpleasant activity on net, an unfortunate expenditure you have to put up with for the sake of the benefit of finding a partner? That seems awfully sad.
Or are you talking specifically about the financial cost, and saying that dinner dates have to be so outrageously expensive that on balance they’re negative apart from the possibility of finding a long-term partner? (If so, perhaps your pool of prospective partners is too picky.)
You may be expressing a contradiction here.
I meant minimum amount of money and time finding it. Sorry for my bad English,