designed from the top to stunt intellectual growth
Maybe the result is that they stunt growth, but to infer intention from that is just an agency-fantasy. I would guess that the bereaucrats that actually think about the result have good intentions, even.
Maybe the result is that they stunt growth, but to infer intention from that is just an agency-fantasy. I would guess that the bereaucrats that actually think about the result have good intentions, even.
Eh, the Prussian school system was explicitly designed to create soldiers, and stunting intellectual growth is a part of that. It’s not much of a stretch to call it intentional.
I doubt that many school officials or politicians today know about the influences of the Prussian school system on e.g. the United States school system, or would guess that their present systems bear features deliberately designed to stunt intellectual growth.
I suspect that they mostly see the system that they were themselves educated in as normal by default, and only think to question the appropriateness of features that are specifically brought to their attention, and then only contemplate changing them in ways that are politically practical and advantageous from their positions. Expecting them to try and design and implement a school system that best meets their stated goals is like expecting a person to specify to a genie exactly how they want their mother removed from a burning building so as to save her life. The problem and its solution space simply doesn’t fall within the realms that they’re inclined to actually think about.
I do not know if you have read Gatto or not based on this. He points out that the system has no memory of its origin and that changes occur just like you describe with the result of deepening the problem. The last major school reform was GW Bush’s No Child Left Behind....if that tells you anything about who “fixes” the system.
No Child Left Behind was a stupid fix, but that doesn’t mean it was an ill intentioned fix.
I have actually just found the online text of “The Underground History of Education,” and started reading it, but so far am unimpressed and unlikely to finish it. I’m noticing a lot of cherrypicking to support his position, and he doesn’t give sources for his assertions at all (I went to the table of contents to look for a bibliography, and couldn’t find one, so I did a further search to see if this is the case in the print version and confirmed that the book contains no citations.)
I share his opinion that our current educational system is not well designed to get the best out of its students, but if I wanted to introduce someone to a writer who could effectively explain that point, I don’t think I’d recommend him. I’d probably recommend some of Eliezer’s essays, or maybe Paul Graham’s.
The statements of intent where made in writing and in speeches. I would do it for you but linking on the droid is not fun. Google “Rockefeller mencken quotes education” and the first link should lend some insight into the intent of the designers of the compulsory public school system. Gatto did a lot of research to support the thesis that schools are designed to dumb down the populace.
Gatto did a lot of research to support the thesis that schools are designed to dumb down the populace.
This may simply be jumping on an issue of semantics, but I’m concerned that this is really what he did, rather than doing a lot of research to find out whether the thesis was correct, or, more ideally, doing a lot of research before promoting the hypothesis to attention at all.
Well you can make wild speculations based off of my semantics or you can read for yourself. You seem to have chosen the former. Please return and clarify if you find his research faulty after you have read his work.
Well, the first link I get when I do the google search you suggested is this, and I’ve read that, but I’m not clear on what research of his you’re expecting me to read. The only work of his that appears to be available online is this, which contains assertions, but does not appear to support them with research as such.
It’s true that I haven’t read John Taylor Gatto’s work beyond that essay and the page you suggested reading yourself, but I was not wildly speculating based on semantics, I was making an educated guess considering that this is how people ordinarily behave. I assign a much higher prior to someone, say, hearing that the American school system is inspired by the Prussian system, which was largely concerned with producing good citizen-soldiers, and concluding that the American system must be deliberately designed to stymy creative thought, and looking for more evidence to back up that assertion, than I do to someone deciding to find out what the intentions behind the American school system are, doing extensive research, and concluding that its programs are actually purpose-designed to dumb down the populace.
What little work of his that I’ve found accessible online certainly doesn’t shift me away from that assessment.
Sounds scary. I’ll look into it and update as appropriate.
You are postulating quite the conspiracy tho. Much more likely it seems that a few b’crats went bonkers, the way you sometimes get UFO nuts out of the military.
Not really. To militaristic Prussia of the time, creating good soldiers was simply the same as creating good citizens, and was considered a worthy goal. No conspiracy required, just doing what seemed obviously correct at the time. And then the Prussian system was so ‘advanced’ and ‘modern’ and ‘successful’ that others copied it.
American experts did not all agree with the ‘military’ goal, but it was believed by the relevant experts that the same sorts of virtues applied to factory workers.
Now people try to actually educate children via this system. It’s like making minor tweaks to a torture device and wondering why it is ineffective at relieving headaches. You put some ibuprofen on the screws, tighten them some more, and subjects report slightly less intense headaches than last time.
Not creating effective soldiers puts you at a military disadvantage. If Prussia was a major power at the time, surely other countries feared them. If other countries felt it was necessary to stifle their populace in order to ensure that they were capable of defending themselves against Prussia (or to defend themselves against the countries that took after Prussia), perhaps stifling the populace was thought to be a “lesser evil”, a sacrifice they justified as part of an arms race.
Maybe this wasn’t an evil conspiracy, but a terrible consequence of the prospect of war.
What’s the bias for: “Ahh! We’re in mortal danger! Quick, everybody, become stupid!”
Maybe the result is that they stunt growth, but to infer intention from that is just an agency-fantasy. I would guess that the bereaucrats that actually think about the result have good intentions, even.
Eh, the Prussian school system was explicitly designed to create soldiers, and stunting intellectual growth is a part of that. It’s not much of a stretch to call it intentional.
I doubt that many school officials or politicians today know about the influences of the Prussian school system on e.g. the United States school system, or would guess that their present systems bear features deliberately designed to stunt intellectual growth.
I suspect that they mostly see the system that they were themselves educated in as normal by default, and only think to question the appropriateness of features that are specifically brought to their attention, and then only contemplate changing them in ways that are politically practical and advantageous from their positions. Expecting them to try and design and implement a school system that best meets their stated goals is like expecting a person to specify to a genie exactly how they want their mother removed from a burning building so as to save her life. The problem and its solution space simply doesn’t fall within the realms that they’re inclined to actually think about.
Indeed. (I should clarify that I was interpreting the original inventors of the Volksschule were the ‘top’, not, say, Arne Duncan.)
I do not know if you have read Gatto or not based on this. He points out that the system has no memory of its origin and that changes occur just like you describe with the result of deepening the problem. The last major school reform was GW Bush’s No Child Left Behind....if that tells you anything about who “fixes” the system.
No Child Left Behind was a stupid fix, but that doesn’t mean it was an ill intentioned fix.
I have actually just found the online text of “The Underground History of Education,” and started reading it, but so far am unimpressed and unlikely to finish it. I’m noticing a lot of cherrypicking to support his position, and he doesn’t give sources for his assertions at all (I went to the table of contents to look for a bibliography, and couldn’t find one, so I did a further search to see if this is the case in the print version and confirmed that the book contains no citations.)
I share his opinion that our current educational system is not well designed to get the best out of its students, but if I wanted to introduce someone to a writer who could effectively explain that point, I don’t think I’d recommend him. I’d probably recommend some of Eliezer’s essays, or maybe Paul Graham’s.
Oops, I accidentally only considered US and Canada. (tho I know little of what goes on in the American system, now that I think about it)
The US system took heavily from the Prussian school. The history is fascinating to say the least.
The statements of intent where made in writing and in speeches. I would do it for you but linking on the droid is not fun. Google “Rockefeller mencken quotes education” and the first link should lend some insight into the intent of the designers of the compulsory public school system. Gatto did a lot of research to support the thesis that schools are designed to dumb down the populace.
This may simply be jumping on an issue of semantics, but I’m concerned that this is really what he did, rather than doing a lot of research to find out whether the thesis was correct, or, more ideally, doing a lot of research before promoting the hypothesis to attention at all.
Well you can make wild speculations based off of my semantics or you can read for yourself. You seem to have chosen the former. Please return and clarify if you find his research faulty after you have read his work.
Well, the first link I get when I do the google search you suggested is this, and I’ve read that, but I’m not clear on what research of his you’re expecting me to read. The only work of his that appears to be available online is this, which contains assertions, but does not appear to support them with research as such.
It’s true that I haven’t read John Taylor Gatto’s work beyond that essay and the page you suggested reading yourself, but I was not wildly speculating based on semantics, I was making an educated guess considering that this is how people ordinarily behave. I assign a much higher prior to someone, say, hearing that the American school system is inspired by the Prussian system, which was largely concerned with producing good citizen-soldiers, and concluding that the American system must be deliberately designed to stymy creative thought, and looking for more evidence to back up that assertion, than I do to someone deciding to find out what the intentions behind the American school system are, doing extensive research, and concluding that its programs are actually purpose-designed to dumb down the populace.
What little work of his that I’ve found accessible online certainly doesn’t shift me away from that assessment.
Sounds scary. I’ll look into it and update as appropriate.
You are postulating quite the conspiracy tho. Much more likely it seems that a few b’crats went bonkers, the way you sometimes get UFO nuts out of the military.
Not really. To militaristic Prussia of the time, creating good soldiers was simply the same as creating good citizens, and was considered a worthy goal. No conspiracy required, just doing what seemed obviously correct at the time. And then the Prussian system was so ‘advanced’ and ‘modern’ and ‘successful’ that others copied it.
American experts did not all agree with the ‘military’ goal, but it was believed by the relevant experts that the same sorts of virtues applied to factory workers.
Now people try to actually educate children via this system. It’s like making minor tweaks to a torture device and wondering why it is ineffective at relieving headaches. You put some ibuprofen on the screws, tighten them some more, and subjects report slightly less intense headaches than last time.
Not creating effective soldiers puts you at a military disadvantage. If Prussia was a major power at the time, surely other countries feared them. If other countries felt it was necessary to stifle their populace in order to ensure that they were capable of defending themselves against Prussia (or to defend themselves against the countries that took after Prussia), perhaps stifling the populace was thought to be a “lesser evil”, a sacrifice they justified as part of an arms race.
Maybe this wasn’t an evil conspiracy, but a terrible consequence of the prospect of war.
What’s the bias for: “Ahh! We’re in mortal danger! Quick, everybody, become stupid!”
Bayesians vs. Barbarians
I wrote a quick introduction to Gatto’s claims of detrimental schooling practices that I think will give you a quick idea of whether it’s worth continuing to look into. Let me know what your reaction is? I’m curious.