I think you are abusing/misusing the concept of falsifiability here. Ditto for empiricism. You aren’t the only one to do this, I’ve seen it happen a lot over the years and it’s very frustrating. I unfortunately am busy right now but would love to give a fuller response someday, especially if you are genuinely interested to hear what I have to say (which I doubt, given your attitude towards MIRI).
I unfortunately am busy right now but would love to give a fuller response someday, especially if you are genuinely interested to hear what I have to say (which I doubt, given your attitude towards MIRI).
I’m a bit surprised you suspect I wouldn’t be interested in hearing what you have to say?
I think the amount of time I’ve spent engaging with MIRI perspectives over the years provides strong evidence that I’m interested in hearing opposing perspectives on this issue. I’d guess I’ve engaged with MIRI perspectives vastly more than almost everyone on Earth who explicitly disagrees with them as strongly as I do (although obviously some people like Paul Christiano and other AI safety researchers have engaged with them even more than me).
(I might not reply to you, but that’s definitely not because I wouldn’t be interested in what you have to say. I read virtually every comment-reply to me carefully, even if I don’t end up replying.)
Here’s a new approach: Your list of points 1 − 7. Would you also make those claims about me? (i.e. replace references to MIRI with references to Daniel Kokotajlo.)
You’ve made detailed predictions about what you expect in the next several years, on numerous occasions, and made several good-faith attempts to elucidate your models of AI concretely. There are many ways we disagree, and many ways I could characterize your views, but “unfalsifiable” is not a label I would tend to use for your opinions on AI. I do not mentally lump you together with MIRI in any strong sense.
OK, glad to hear. And thank you. :) Well, you’ll be interested to know that I think of my views on AGI as being similar to MIRI’s, just less extreme in various dimensions. For example I don’t think literally killing everyone is the most likely outcome, but I think it’s a very plausible outcome. I also don’t expect the ‘sharp left turn’ to be particularly sharp, such that I don’t think it’s a particularly useful concept. I also think I’ve learned a lot from engaging with MIRI and while I have plenty of criticisms of them (e.g. I think some of them are arrogant and perhaps even dogmatic) I think they have been more epistemically virtuous than the average participant in the AGI risk conversation, even the average ‘serious’ or ‘elite’ participant.
I want to publicly endorse and express appreciation for Matthew’s apparent good faith.
Every time I’ve ever seen him disagreeing about AI stuff on the internet (a clear majority of the times I’ve encountered anything he’s written), he’s always been polite, reasonable, thoughtful, and extremely patient. Obviously conversations sometimes entail people talking past each other, but I’ve seen him carefully try to avoid miscommunication, and (to my ability to judge) strawmanning.
Followup: Matthew and I ended up talking about it in person. tl;dr of my position is that
Falsifiability is a symmetric two-place relation; one cannot say “X is unfalsifiable,” except as shorthand for saying “X and Y make the same predictions,” and thus Y is equally unfalsifiable. When someone is going around saying “X is unfalsifiable, therefore not-X,” that’s often a misuse of the concept—what they should say instead is “On priors / for other reasons (e.g. deference) I prefer not-X to X; and since both theories make the same predictions, I expect to continue thinking this instead of updating, since there won’t be anything to update on
.What is the point of falsifiability-talk then? Well, first of all, it’s quite important to track when two theories make the same predictions, or the same-predictions-till-time-T. It’s an important part of the bigger project of extracting predictions from theories so they can be tested. It’s exciting progress when you discover that two theories make different predictions, and nail it down well enough to bet on. Secondly, it’s quite important to track when people are making this worse rather than easier—e.g. fortunetellers and pundits will often go out of their way to avoid making any predictions that diverge from what their interlocutors already would predict. Whereas the best scientists/thinkers/forecasters, the ones you should defer to, should be actively trying to find alpha and then exploit it by making bets with people around them. So falsifiability-talk is useful for evaluating people as epistemically virtuous or vicious. But note that if this is what you are doing, it’s all a relative thing in a different way—in the case of MIRI, for example, the question should be “Should I defer to them more, or less, than various alternative thinkers A B and C? --> Are they generally more virtuous about making specific predictions, seeking to make bets with their interlocutors, etc. than A B or C?”
So with that as context, I’d say that (a) It’s just wrong to say ‘MIRI’s theories of doom are unfalsifiable.’ Instead say ‘unfortunately for us (not for the plausibility of the theories), both MIRI’s doom theories and (insert your favorite non-doom theories here) make the same predictions until it’s basically too late.’ (b) One should then look at MIRI and be suspicious and think ‘are they systematically avoiding making bets, making specific predictions, etc. relative to the other people we could defer to? Are they playing the sneaky fortuneteller or pundit’s game?’ to which I think the answer is ‘no not at all, they are actually more epistemically virtuous in this regard than the average intellectual. That said, they aren’t the best either—some other people in the AI risk community seem to be doing better than them in this regard, and deserve more virtue points (and possibly deference points) therefore.’ E.g. I think both Matthew and I have more concrete forecasting track records than Yudkowsky?
I think you are abusing/misusing the concept of falsifiability here. Ditto for empiricism. You aren’t the only one to do this, I’ve seen it happen a lot over the years and it’s very frustrating. I unfortunately am busy right now but would love to give a fuller response someday, especially if you are genuinely interested to hear what I have to say (which I doubt, given your attitude towards MIRI).
I’m a bit surprised you suspect I wouldn’t be interested in hearing what you have to say?
I think the amount of time I’ve spent engaging with MIRI perspectives over the years provides strong evidence that I’m interested in hearing opposing perspectives on this issue. I’d guess I’ve engaged with MIRI perspectives vastly more than almost everyone on Earth who explicitly disagrees with them as strongly as I do (although obviously some people like Paul Christiano and other AI safety researchers have engaged with them even more than me).
(I might not reply to you, but that’s definitely not because I wouldn’t be interested in what you have to say. I read virtually every comment-reply to me carefully, even if I don’t end up replying.)
I apologize, I shouldn’t have said that parenthetical.
Here’s a new approach: Your list of points 1 − 7. Would you also make those claims about me? (i.e. replace references to MIRI with references to Daniel Kokotajlo.)
You’ve made detailed predictions about what you expect in the next several years, on numerous occasions, and made several good-faith attempts to elucidate your models of AI concretely. There are many ways we disagree, and many ways I could characterize your views, but “unfalsifiable” is not a label I would tend to use for your opinions on AI. I do not mentally lump you together with MIRI in any strong sense.
OK, glad to hear. And thank you. :) Well, you’ll be interested to know that I think of my views on AGI as being similar to MIRI’s, just less extreme in various dimensions. For example I don’t think literally killing everyone is the most likely outcome, but I think it’s a very plausible outcome. I also don’t expect the ‘sharp left turn’ to be particularly sharp, such that I don’t think it’s a particularly useful concept. I also think I’ve learned a lot from engaging with MIRI and while I have plenty of criticisms of them (e.g. I think some of them are arrogant and perhaps even dogmatic) I think they have been more epistemically virtuous than the average participant in the AGI risk conversation, even the average ‘serious’ or ‘elite’ participant.
I want to publicly endorse and express appreciation for Matthew’s apparent good faith.
Every time I’ve ever seen him disagreeing about AI stuff on the internet (a clear majority of the times I’ve encountered anything he’s written), he’s always been polite, reasonable, thoughtful, and extremely patient. Obviously conversations sometimes entail people talking past each other, but I’ve seen him carefully try to avoid miscommunication, and (to my ability to judge) strawmanning.
Thank you Mathew. Keep it up. : )
Followup: Matthew and I ended up talking about it in person. tl;dr of my position is that
Falsifiability is a symmetric two-place relation; one cannot say “X is unfalsifiable,” except as shorthand for saying “X and Y make the same predictions,” and thus Y is equally unfalsifiable. When someone is going around saying “X is unfalsifiable, therefore not-X,” that’s often a misuse of the concept—what they should say instead is “On priors / for other reasons (e.g. deference) I prefer not-X to X; and since both theories make the same predictions, I expect to continue thinking this instead of updating, since there won’t be anything to update on
.What is the point of falsifiability-talk then? Well, first of all, it’s quite important to track when two theories make the same predictions, or the same-predictions-till-time-T. It’s an important part of the bigger project of extracting predictions from theories so they can be tested. It’s exciting progress when you discover that two theories make different predictions, and nail it down well enough to bet on. Secondly, it’s quite important to track when people are making this worse rather than easier—e.g. fortunetellers and pundits will often go out of their way to avoid making any predictions that diverge from what their interlocutors already would predict. Whereas the best scientists/thinkers/forecasters, the ones you should defer to, should be actively trying to find alpha and then exploit it by making bets with people around them. So falsifiability-talk is useful for evaluating people as epistemically virtuous or vicious. But note that if this is what you are doing, it’s all a relative thing in a different way—in the case of MIRI, for example, the question should be “Should I defer to them more, or less, than various alternative thinkers A B and C? --> Are they generally more virtuous about making specific predictions, seeking to make bets with their interlocutors, etc. than A B or C?”
So with that as context, I’d say that (a) It’s just wrong to say ‘MIRI’s theories of doom are unfalsifiable.’ Instead say ‘unfortunately for us (not for the plausibility of the theories), both MIRI’s doom theories and (insert your favorite non-doom theories here) make the same predictions until it’s basically too late.’ (b) One should then look at MIRI and be suspicious and think ‘are they systematically avoiding making bets, making specific predictions, etc. relative to the other people we could defer to? Are they playing the sneaky fortuneteller or pundit’s game?’ to which I think the answer is ‘no not at all, they are actually more epistemically virtuous in this regard than the average intellectual. That said, they aren’t the best either—some other people in the AI risk community seem to be doing better than them in this regard, and deserve more virtue points (and possibly deference points) therefore.’ E.g. I think both Matthew and I have more concrete forecasting track records than Yudkowsky?