Actions like these leave scars on entire communities.
Do you have any idea how fortunate you were to have so many people in your life who explicitly tell you “don’t do things like this”? The world around you has been made so profoundly, profoundly conducive to healing you.
When someone is this persistent in thinking of reasons to be aggressive AND reasons to not evaluate the world around them, it’s scary and disturbing. I understand that humans aren’t very causally upstream of their decisions, but this is the case for everyone, and situations like these go a long way towards causing people like Duncan and Eliezer to fear meeting their fans.
I’m greatful that looking at this case has helped me formalize a concept of oppositional drive, a variable representing the unconscious drive to oppose other humans with justifications layered on top based on intelligence (a separate variable). Children diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant disorder is the DSM-5′s way of mitigating the harm when a child has an unusually strong oppositional drive for their age, but that’s because the DSM puts binary categorizations on traits that are actually better represented as variables that in most people are so low as to not be noticed (and some people are in the middle, unusually extreme cases get all the attention, this was covered in this section of Social Dark Matter which was roughly 100% of my inspiration).
Opposition is… a rather dangerous thing for any living being to do, especially if your brain conceals/obfuscates the tendency/drive whenever it emerges, so even most people in the orangey area probably disagree with having this trait upon reflection and would typically press a button to place themselves more towards the yellow. This is derived from the fundamental logic of trust (which in humans must be built as a complex project that revolves around calibration).
I somewhat disagree with the oppositional drive theory that you’ve described here, if only for the fact that I do not believe that klob thinks he has done anything wrong here. Having read through the messenger messages he posted as evidence, I can only conclude that he genuinely believes that the messages are exculpatory and not indicative of the behaviors he is accused of.
klob, I do want to emphsize:
It pains me so much that they have not done the same with me.
This is them doing the same, and saying you need help.
I feel like you’re not hearing me. I haven’t heard things through the grapevine. I’ve read the full Google doc from Duncan and your recent social media posts. I feel like I have just about all of the context I could possibly have. Do you think it is absolutely impossible someone could read the Facebook messages and conclude that you are in the wrong here? Which is more likely, that there is a massive conspiracy against you or that people genuinely disagree?
ask questions
People have! Like “klob you seem like you’re making a lot of major life decisions recently, is everything alright?” or “klob you’re posting a ton on social media, way more than anyone else I know, even other influencers. Is everything good?” And they get blocked or yelled at every single time.
What is the rational decision to come to when most people, including long time people unfamiliar with the drama, are concerned?
Do you have someone IRL like a therapist that you can show this post and all other supporting documentation for a decision, absent any prior bias?
People have! Like “klob you seem like you’re making a lot of major life decisions recently, is everything alright?” or “klob you’re posting a ton on social media, way more than anyone else I know, even other influencers. Is everything good?” And they get blocked or yelled at every single time.
klob you’re posting a ton on social media
I’m experimenting with how to be a content creator. I’ve got a lot of time as I’m between other jobs. It’s fine.
klob you’re making a lot of major life decisions recently
Indeed, I’m at an inflection point in my career
is everything alright?
Not really, my friends are kind of abandoning me and it sucks. It will be alright.
And they get blocked or yelled at every single time.
What is most troubling to me is not anything that Duncan or anyone else has said, but the stuff that you have said in the apparent belief that other people would say, “Oh, yeah, that’s completely exculpatory.”
I wanted very badly to believe that this was a huge misunderstanding but your own beliefs and behaviors, stated in your own words, are concerning to me.
I like to think I’m a pretty decent judge of character and fairly impartial. Actually, let me be honest. I was not partial. In your favor. I have no idea who the fuck Duncan Sabien is. I guess some celeb in this space?
Even if this post without the comments were the only thing I’d read, I’d still come away with the same take.
You have not shown a single claim in the warning doc to be false. Your “defense” is Trumpian, basically—just keep loudly declaring “fake news” and hope that nobody notices you provide zero evidence in service of your claims while there is a preponderance of evidence on the other side.
Actions like these leave scars on entire communities.
Indeed. Actions like not giving me a single chance to explain context, shutting me out from entire communities based off of rumor, and not actually investigating what happened.
They do leave scars on communities. As they should.
Okay. Then given all those years of participation, you should have little trouble naming a couple of known-and-acknowledged rationalists or EAs who know you and will say “yeah, this guy is one of us.”
Actions like these leave scars on entire communities.
Do you have any idea how fortunate you were to have so many people in your life who explicitly tell you “don’t do things like this”? The world around you has been made so profoundly, profoundly conducive to healing you.
When someone is this persistent in thinking of reasons to be aggressive AND reasons to not evaluate the world around them, it’s scary and disturbing. I understand that humans aren’t very causally upstream of their decisions, but this is the case for everyone, and situations like these go a long way towards causing people like Duncan and Eliezer to fear meeting their fans.
I’m greatful that looking at this case has helped me formalize a concept of oppositional drive, a variable representing the unconscious drive to oppose other humans with justifications layered on top based on intelligence (a separate variable). Children diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant disorder is the DSM-5′s way of mitigating the harm when a child has an unusually strong oppositional drive for their age, but that’s because the DSM puts binary categorizations on traits that are actually better represented as variables that in most people are so low as to not be noticed (and some people are in the middle, unusually extreme cases get all the attention, this was covered in this section of Social Dark Matter which was roughly 100% of my inspiration).
Opposition is… a rather dangerous thing for any living being to do, especially if your brain conceals/obfuscates the tendency/drive whenever it emerges, so even most people in the orangey area probably disagree with having this trait upon reflection and would typically press a button to place themselves more towards the yellow. This is derived from the fundamental logic of trust (which in humans must be built as a complex project that revolves around calibration).
I completely agree with the first 3 graphs.
I somewhat disagree with the oppositional drive theory that you’ve described here, if only for the fact that I do not believe that klob thinks he has done anything wrong here. Having read through the messenger messages he posted as evidence, I can only conclude that he genuinely believes that the messages are exculpatory and not indicative of the behaviors he is accused of.
klob, I do want to emphsize:
This is them doing the same, and saying you need help.
I would hope that my friends of four years would give me a chance to explain context and ask questions before assuming that I need help.
Do you know how many of them have called me up and asked “hey, so what actually happened here, because I’ve heard some concerning things...”?
I feel like you’re not hearing me. I haven’t heard things through the grapevine. I’ve read the full Google doc from Duncan and your recent social media posts. I feel like I have just about all of the context I could possibly have. Do you think it is absolutely impossible someone could read the Facebook messages and conclude that you are in the wrong here? Which is more likely, that there is a massive conspiracy against you or that people genuinely disagree?
People have! Like “klob you seem like you’re making a lot of major life decisions recently, is everything alright?” or “klob you’re posting a ton on social media, way more than anyone else I know, even other influencers. Is everything good?” And they get blocked or yelled at every single time.
What is the rational decision to come to when most people, including long time people unfamiliar with the drama, are concerned?
Do you have someone IRL like a therapist that you can show this post and all other supporting documentation for a decision, absent any prior bias?
I’m experimenting with how to be a content creator. I’ve got a lot of time as I’m between other jobs. It’s fine.
Indeed, I’m at an inflection point in my career
Not really, my friends are kind of abandoning me and it sucks. It will be alright.
Patently false.
>> And they get blocked or yelled at every single time.
> Patently false.
Has there been a time recently where someone offered you feedback, and you changed your behavior?
Then you’re probably very biased by the false things he’s stated in there.
What is most troubling to me is not anything that Duncan or anyone else has said, but the stuff that you have said in the apparent belief that other people would say, “Oh, yeah, that’s completely exculpatory.”
I wanted very badly to believe that this was a huge misunderstanding but your own beliefs and behaviors, stated in your own words, are concerning to me.
I like to think I’m a pretty decent judge of character and fairly impartial. Actually, let me be honest. I was not partial. In your favor. I have no idea who the fuck Duncan Sabien is. I guess some celeb in this space?
Even if this post without the comments were the only thing I’d read, I’d still come away with the same take.
You have not shown a single claim in the warning doc to be false. Your “defense” is Trumpian, basically—just keep loudly declaring “fake news” and hope that nobody notices you provide zero evidence in service of your claims while there is a preponderance of evidence on the other side.
(the answer, for my local friends, is ZERO.)
Indeed. Actions like not giving me a single chance to explain context, shutting me out from entire communities based off of rumor, and not actually investigating what happened.
They do leave scars on communities. As they should.
You are not a part of this community.
Eyeroll my dude. I’ve been a part of this community since early college.
Bandwagon much?
Okay. Then given all those years of participation, you should have little trouble naming a couple of known-and-acknowledged rationalists or EAs who know you and will say “yeah, this guy is one of us.”
(“I’ve been wearing my ‘I fucking love science!’ shirt since early college” doesn’t make one a scientist.)